Internet Computer is the ONLY 3rd Generation Blockchain | Dominic Williams

Summary

The transcript captures a conversation from Paris Blockchain Week, discussing the evolution of blockchain technology. It outlines the progression from first-generation blockchains like Bitcoin designed for cryptocurrency transactions, to second-generation platforms like Ethereum that introduced smart contracts, and onto third-generation blockchains exemplified by the Internet Computer Protocol (ICP). ICP is highlighted for its ability to run everything on-chain, offering scalability, efficiency, and direct interaction with smart contracts. The discussion emphasizes the benefits of on-chain AI, including security, resilience, and autonomy, and how ICP's unique features, such as reverse gas models and the potential for large language model hosting, set it apart from traditional cloud services. The conversation also touches on the importance of decentralization in reducing the need for intermediaries, enhancing security, and the potential impact on cybercrime prevention. The interviewee expresses optimism about the future of blockchain in various sectors, including government and corporate domains, and mentions several innovative projects built on ICP.

Takeaways

• 🌟 The Internet Computer Protocol (ICP) is a third-generation blockchain that serves as a cloud for building applications entirely on smart contracts, offering scalability and efficiency.
• 🎨 ICP allows for the creation of applications like social networks that are autonomous, transparent, and controlled by the community, which is a core aspect of Web 3.
• 🔒 Security on ICP is enhanced as it removes the need for traditional cybersecurity measures, providing a more secure environment for applications and data.
• 🚀 ICP is unique in its ability to run AI models as smart contracts, which is a significant advancement for the blockchain space.
• ⛓️ The use of decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs) on ICP provides a way to manage and update smart contracts in a decentralized manner.
• 📈 ICP's approach to blockchain technology aims to simplify R&D, increase productivity, and reduce costs associated with traditional IT infrastructure.
• 🌐 ICP's network, through its subnet architecture, provides privacy for smart contract contents and computations, which is crucial for enterprise and government use.
• 💡 The potential of ICP extends beyond Web 3 applications, with projects like Utopia aiming to bring ICP's benefits to government and corporate domains.
• 🔗 Cross-chain functionality on ICP allows for the decentralized control and updating of Ethereum smart contracts, enhancing interoperability.
• 📊 ICP's technology is designed to be infinitely scalable and efficient, which is essential for hosting complex applications like large language models.
• ⏳ ICP is working on transitioning to a 64-bit WebAssembly virtual machine to increase the memory limit for smart contracts, enabling more complex applications to run on-chain.

Q & A

What is the Internet Computer Protocol (ICP) and how does it fit into the blockchain world?

The Internet Computer Protocol (ICP) is a third-generation blockchain technology that serves as a cloud-like platform where smart contracts can be used to build fully decentralized applications, such as social networks. It is designed to be infinitely scalable, extremely efficient, and allows for direct interaction with code on the blockchain, which is autonomously controlled by a decentralized governance structure.

How does the Internet Computer's approach to hosting applications differ from traditional cloud services like AWS?

Unlike traditional cloud services, the Internet Computer runs everything on-chain, which means applications are decentralized and not reliant on any single centralized infrastructure. This provides benefits such as increased security, regulatory compliance, and the ability to build fully decentralized user experiences.

What are the advantages of running AI models on the blockchain as smart contracts?

Running AI models as smart contracts on the blockchain provides security, resilience, and autonomy. It ensures that the AI is tamper-proof, unstoppable, and does not require trust in a human intermediary, which is crucial for applications that require high levels of trust and security.

Why is full stack decentralization important in the context of Web 3.0?

Full stack decentralization is important for Web 3.0 as it removes intermediaries, which can be sources of control, censorship, and security vulnerabilities. It empowers end-users, provides transparency, and allows for community governance, which aligns with the vision of a more open and democratic internet.

How does the Internet Computer Protocol address the issue of cybercrime and cybersecurity?

The Internet Computer Protocol offers a fundamentally secure platform by leveraging smart contracts, which are tamper-proof and do not require traditional cybersecurity measures. This can lead to significant reductions in the costs associated with cybercrime and the complexity of IT infrastructure.

What is the significance of the Internet Computer's 'reverse gas' model?

The 'reverse gas' model is a feature of the Internet Computer Protocol that allows smart contracts to pay for their own computation. This is significant because it enables smart contracts to serve user experiences directly, without the need for off-chain processing.

Can you provide an example of a project built on the Internet Computer Protocol?

One example is OpenChat, a decentralized social network and crypto wallet that allows users to send messages and crypto directly through the platform. It has been running for over three years without any cybersecurity incidents, demonstrating the robustness of the Internet Computer Protocol.

What are the limitations of current blockchain technologies in terms of hosting large-scale applications?

Current blockchain technologies often struggle with scalability and efficiency when it comes to hosting large-scale applications. They may not be able to handle heavy-duty compute tasks or store large amounts of data, which is where the Internet Computer Protocol aims to innovate by offering a more scalable and efficient solution.

How does the Internet Computer Protocol's approach to AI differ from other blockchain platforms?

The Internet Computer Protocol is unique in its ability to run AI models directly as smart contracts on the blockchain. This is different from other blockchain platforms that may only offer limited AI capabilities or require AI models to be run off-chain.

What is the potential impact of AI advancements on cybersecurity challenges?

AI advancements can both support and challenge cybersecurity. While AI can enhance security measures by detecting threats and improving system resilience, it can also be used by hackers to develop more sophisticated malware and automate attacks, potentially making cybersecurity challenges much more difficult in the future.

What are some of the future improvements planned for the Internet Computer Protocol?

Future improvements for the Internet Computer Protocol include moving to a 64-bit virtual machine environment, which will increase the memory limit for smart contracts and allow for the hosting of larger language models. Additionally, there are plans to introduce SIMD instructions to improve efficiency and further developments to enhance the network's scalability and performance.

Outlines

00:00

📈 Introduction to Blockchain and ICP at Paris Blockchain Week

The speaker, Dominic, is introduced at Paris Blockchain Week and discusses his experience at the event, including seeing the Mona Lisa. He then delves into explaining the Internet Computer Protocol (ICP), positioning it as a third-generation blockchain technology. Dominic outlines the evolution of blockchain technology, from cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin to smart contracts with Ethereum and its competitors. He emphasizes ICP's unique capabilities, such as running everything on-chain, processing HTTP requests, and serving user experiences directly in web browsers, which sets it apart from other blockchains that cannot handle heavy compute or storage tasks like Solana. Dominic also mentions recent demonstrations of AI models running on the blockchain and the potential for hosting large language models on-chain in the future.

05:02

🔒 Benefits of Full Stack Decentralization and On-Chain AI

The paragraph highlights the benefits of hosting everything on-chain compared to using legacy solutions like Amazon Web Services. Dominic discusses regulatory compliance, particularly in the context of decentralized finance (DeFi), and how on-chain systems can avoid the need for Know Your Customer (KYC) processes. He also touches on the security advantages of fully on-chain systems, which are less susceptible to hacks due to the lack of centralized points of failure. Dominic further explains cross-chain functionality and how it can decentralize control of Ethereum smart contracts. The paragraph concludes with a discussion on how on-chain systems can lead to full stack decentralization, enhancing security, and the potential for community governance through decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs).

10:02

🚀 Internet Computer's AI Capabilities and Future Prospects

Dominic addresses the topic of AI and smart contracts, emphasizing that, to his knowledge, the Internet Computer is the only existing third-generation blockchain running AI smart contracts. He criticizes other blockchain platforms for making false claims about their AI capabilities, stating that they cannot even store simple data like a phone photo. The speaker then discusses the technical limitations of the current Internet Computer system, which uses a 32-bit virtual machine, and the upcoming transition to a 64-bit system that will significantly increase memory capacity and enable the running of large language models. Dominic also talks about the potential benefits of having AI on-chain, including security, resilience, and the ability to create autonomous systems that do not rely on human intermediaries.

15:03

💡 The Impact of Cybersecurity and the Cost of Cybercrime

This paragraph focuses on the global impact of cybersecurity and the escalating costs of cybercrime, which are predicted to exceed $10 trillion by 2025. Dominic argues that traditional IT infrastructure is fundamentally insecure and that adding cybersecurity measures is a fallible solution. He advocates for the use of third-generation blockchain, like the Internet Computer, as a solution to eliminate the need for cybersecurity. Dominic also mentions the Utopia project, which aims to bring ICP technology to government and corporate domains by creating a private, sovereign cloud that is secure and resilient against hacks.

20:03

🌐 The Future of Decentralization and Removing Intermediaries

Dominic discusses the importance of decentralization and removing intermediaries in the context of Web 3.0, using the analogy of a ticket seller and ripper to explain the need for multiple validators to ensure trust. He criticizes the use of Amazon Web Services for building systems due to the control and potential for censorship it allows. Dominic emphasizes the Internet Computer's role in enabling full stack decentralization, where communities can control services through a decentralized autonomous organization (DAO), providing security and eliminating backdoors. The paragraph concludes with Dominic's invitation to explore the Definitive Foundation's headquarters in Zurich for a more in-depth discussion.

25:04

🎮 Excitement for Web 3 Projects and Games

In the final paragraph, Dominic expresses his enthusiasm for various projects being built on the Internet Computer, mentioning Open Chat and Tagger as examples. He also highlights a project involving zero-knowledge proofs and chain fusion technology. Dominic shares his excitement for a game being developed by a team that includes founders who were behind Neopets and significant contributions to Ethereum and DeFi. He hopes that the game, which he has found exciting, will be completed as it has the potential to be a major Web 3.0 game. The paragraph ends with thanks and a closing remark, indicating a desire for a longer interview in the future.

Keywords

💡Paris Blockchain Week

Paris Blockchain Week is an event where professionals and enthusiasts in the blockchain industry gather to discuss the latest developments, trends, and innovations in the space. In the script, it is mentioned as an 'amazing event' that Dominic enjoyed attending, indicating its significance in the blockchain community.

💡Internet Computer Protocol (ICP)

The Internet Computer Protocol is a third-generation blockchain technology that allows for the creation of decentralized applications and services. It is central to the discussion as Dominic explains its role in the blockchain world, emphasizing its ability to run smart contracts and serve user experiences directly on the blockchain.

💡Smart Contracts

Smart contracts are self-executing contracts with the terms of the agreement directly written into code. They are a fundamental part of blockchain technology and are extensively discussed in the script. Dominic talks about how smart contracts on the Internet Computer Protocol can process HTTP and serve user experiences directly into web browsers.

💡Decentralized Autonomous Organization (DAO)

A DAO is an organization represented by rules encoded as a computer program that is transparent, controlled by the organization members, and not influenced by a central government. Dominic mentions DAOs in the context of controlling social networks and other applications on the blockchain, which aligns with the vision of Web 3.0.

💡Web 3.0

Web 3.0, often referred to as the decentralized web, is the next generation of internet where users have more control over their data and interactions. Dominic discusses Web 3.0 in relation to the Internet Computer Protocol, highlighting its potential to give users and communities control over their online experiences.

💡Reverse Gas

Reverse gas is a mechanism in the Internet Computer Protocol that allows smart contracts to pay for their own computation. This is a significant feature as it enables smart contracts to be more autonomous and self-sufficient, as explained by Dominic during the discussion.

💡Scalability

Scalability refers to the ability of a system to handle an increasing amount of work, or its potential to be enlarged to accommodate that growth. Dominic talks about the need for the third-generation blockchain to be 'infinitely scalable' and 'extremely efficient,' which is crucial for handling complex computations and large user bases.

💡AI on Blockchain

AI on Blockchain refers to the execution of artificial intelligence models and algorithms as smart contracts on the blockchain. Dominic demonstrates a neural network performing image classification as a smart contract, showcasing the potential for advanced computational tasks on the blockchain.

💡Cybersecurity

Cybersecurity is the practice of protecting systems, networks, and programs from digital attacks. The script discusses the high costs associated with cybersecurity and cybercrime, and how building on the Internet Computer Protocol can potentially reduce these costs by providing a more secure infrastructure.

💡Zero Knowledge Proofs

Zero Knowledge Proofs are cryptographic methods that allow one party to prove to another that a statement is true without revealing any information apart from the truth of the statement. Dominic mentions their use in conjunction with the Internet Computer Protocol for privacy and security purposes.

💡Deterministic Decentralization

Deterministic decentralization is a system where the process of decentralization is predictable and controlled, ensuring that each node in the network operates independently and according to a set of rules. Dominic refers to this as a feature of the Internet Computer Protocol that allows for privacy and control over data replication.

Highlights

Dominic discusses the Internet Computer Protocol (ICP) as a third-generation blockchain, emphasizing its role in hosting smart contracts and applications directly on the blockchain, which is a significant shift from traditional cloud services.

ICP allows for the creation of decentralized applications like social networks, which can be controlled by a decentralized autonomous organization (DAO), providing transparency and community control.

Dominic explains that ICP's blockchain can process HTTP and serve user experiences directly to web browsers, enabling direct interaction with smart contracts.

The Internet Computer Protocol is designed to be infinitely scalable and extremely efficient, a necessity for the future of blockchain technology.

ICP has demonstrated the capability to run AI models on the blockchain, showcasing its potential for complex computations and smart contracts.

Dominic talks about the importance of on-chain AI for security, resilience, and the removal of intermediaries, which is a core principle of blockchain technology.

The Internet Computer Protocol is aiming to improve efficiency and remove limits, with plans to host large language models on-chain in the near future.

Dominic addresses the regulatory challenges in DeFi, explaining how building on ICP can help with compliance and avoid the need for KYC due to its decentralized nature.

He highlights the security benefits of fully on-chain systems, which can prevent many of the common hacks that occur on centralized infrastructures.

The interview touches on the potential of ICP to support the growing Web 3 ecosystem, including social networks, metaverse games, and DeFi applications.

Dominic emphasizes the cost-saving potential of building on ICP, as it eliminates the need for traditional IT infrastructure and cybersecurity measures.

The conversation includes the impact of ICP on reducing cybercrime, which is predicted to cost the world $10 trillion by 2025.

Dominic mentions the Utopia project, which repurposes ICP technology for government and corporate domains, aiming to create a secure and private sovereign cloud.

The interview discusses the concept of 'full stack decentralization' enabled by ICP, which allows for the removal of intermediaries and increased trust in systems.

Dominic shares his views on the future of AI, predicting that most AI models will run as smart contracts on blockchains like ICP for enhanced security and autonomy.

The interview concludes with Dominic's enthusiasm for various innovative projects being built on the Internet Computer, highlighting the platform's versatility and potential impact across different sectors.

Transcripts

Dominic it's a pleasure to finally meet

you here at uh Paris blockchain week how

did you enjoy the event this far it's

been uh fun it's a amazing event amazing

venue uh last night and got to see the

monaa in the LOF which is pretty cool um

and go was a lot of energy here I saw a

picture on Twitter very nice picture

with the Mona Lisa when I went to the

Mona Lisa it was a lot more crowded than

it was when you were that's true

actually I I realized what a privilege

it was this morning cuz you come in and

there's like this this line C that looks

like about kilometer long yeah it's

crazy that is insane so I want to ask

you for the people that are new to the

blockchain space and who have not heard

about internet computer protocol what is

the role that ICB plays in the

blockchain

world so it's a third generation

blockchain and uh you know the first L

was like blockchains that just host a

cryptocurrency ledger like Bitcoin um

obviously Bitcoin was the first and you

had like competitors like Litecoin

silver Bitcoins gold um some other ones

like feathercoin that disappeared uh

then you get the second lane which is

traditional blockchains uh that host

smart contracts that was pioneered by

ethereum and now you've got all kinds of

competitors like sler and Avalanche and

n and all these layer twos and things

like that and and uh they're probably

more successful at taking a chunk out of

ethereum's lead than some of the

competitor competitors of Bitcoin were

um and then you got the third third

third Lan uh which is blockchain that

really uh plays the role in in a way of

cloud um where you build using smart

contracts where you can build something

like a social network entirely for smart

contracts and the big change is that you

know you can't even store a phone photo

on salana like people talk about how

fast and scalable it is well that really

applies to defi transactions and you

know you can store tokens on salana um

and you can you know put some defi logic

there um you can put some meme coins on

salana uh but you know when you see the

user experience or Media or heavy duty

compute that's not happening on SL it's

happening typically on Amazon web

services uh the change with third

generation blockchain is that everything

runs on chain and you have some changes

like reverse gas but also um you know

third generation blockchain has to be

infinitely scalable extremely efficient

and so on so you know the smallart

contracts will actually process HTTP and

serve user experiences directly into

your web browser so as a user you can

directly interact uh with code on the

blockchain autonomous controlled by a

dow or something like that um and so you

you can build something like a social

network on the blockchain put it under

the control of a dow uh which means it's

autonomous and updated transparently and

put put the user community in control

make the motors um which of course is

kind of the promise of web 3 uh and and

that's what um third generation

blockchain does and even recently uh you

know we've been able to demonstrate a

you know AI models running uh on on the

blockchain and smart contracts I did a

demo a few weeks ago of uh a neural

network doing image classification

running as a smart contract but you know

we're pushing you know we're working

very hard at the definity foundation to

uh improve the efficiency and remove

some limits on the internet computer so

that uh you know hopefully within a few

months we'll see it uh you know hosting

large language models onchain seems to

be the running narrative for this bull

run and since ICP is one of the leaders

if not the leader in onchain what do you

think are the benefits of Hosting

everything on chz as opposed to using

Legacy uh Solutions like Amazon web

services and Google cloud and so on yeah

well look F firstly uh you know

blockchain remains a place uh or or an

industry it's very much run by

narratives and means and uh you know

there's a lot of people for example

talking about the blockchain for AI or

the token for AI um and I think you know

people out there get confused that

doesn't mean they're actually running AI

SM contracts right and and similarly you

know being on chain is is is a new kind

of thing but but as far as we're aware

at least today internet computer smart

contracts are the only ones that for

example uh you know benefit from the

reverse gas models so they can pay for

their own computation that can process

htdp to serve the user experience and

we're not aware yet of any other third

generation blockchains or blockchains

that can really fairly lay claim to

providing that kind of functionality but

yeah look onchain is incredibly

important I'll give you some examples

first of all um uh let's look at defi

there's a regulatory Dimension right so

M which is the you know markets and

crypto assets regulation in Europe means

that that uh if if you uh you know you

you build a system like Unis out of

ethereum spot contracts which are

decentralized but you then go and build

a centralized user experience for

example on Amazon web services then uh

because you built you know a large part

of the system is centralized you'll be

required to do kyc so one way to solve

that is you can build the user

experience on the internet computer you

can put it under the control of a dow

there's a special kind of Dow on the

internet computer called a service

nervous system system so that the user

experience is completely decentralized

actually there's cross-chain

functionality so you can even

decentralize control of your ethereum SM

contracts if you need to be able to

update them that way too uh and then you

basically Go full stack decentralization

you know you've got a decentralized user

experience um running you know under the

control of the Dow uh and if you want

you can if you don't already have

mechanisms on ethereum you can use the

internet computer for the for updating

those smart contracts too uh and now you

you've got end to end decentralization

you know and that's a big Advance um and

it might help you with respect to

regulations like M but there there's

also other reasons too of course if you

look at most of the hacks in the um you

know in the blockchain space they tend

to fall in two camps one is uh the

hackers are exploiting uh things like

re-entrancy bugs and ethereum small

contracts um and just exploring the

logic because of you know evm is quite

an old virtual machine now and it you

know and the design of the system does

lend itself to these kind of attacks so

you going be very careful and you know

order your ethereum code but you know

some some mistakes slip through so

that's one bucket of hacks the other

bigger one though is that the hackers

just go off to centralized

infrastructure you know whether that's

Bridges or whether they take control of

you know the the user experience that's

running on traditional it so for example

at axi Infinity for example a huge web

three game um in reality of course most

of that was running on Amazon web servic

or some other centralized infrastructure

and there was a hot wallet involved and

so it's you know just just the same as

you know hackers will hack into a

centralized exchange to get hold of the

hot wallet they'll hack into AI affility

um or a bridge so the advantage is if if

you go fully on chain um you know smart

contracts a Tampa proof you don't need

to protect them with firewalls and

intrusion detection and anti-malware and

security teams uh so if you look at the

internet computer for for instance it's

hosting uh social

networks and some of the like you know

open chat you know they do chat stuff

like that and as well as being like a

place for communities to form it's all

fully on chain and actually you know

your open chat account is also a crypto

wallet and people send crypto via chat

messages on openchat um so that's been

running for like three years now and

it's got a large community there's a

bunch of crypto inside it's got no no

firewall protection uh no

antimalware Etc right no not even a

security team and far no hex this far

yeah this far it's important to say but

but you know if the purpose of

blockchain is um to provide a platform

that runs on secure mathematics hackers

cannot made 2 plus 2 equal 5 right so

and this far yeah you know all of those

kind of services on the internet

computer that have crypto inside um have

proven hack proof so that's a you know

huge Advantage number one and number two

um if you build your you know social

network social media metaverse game def

whatever it is fully on chain you can

put it under the control of an Internet

Community through a dow and that's what

web3 is all about you know that you can

you know enlist the community of

something like open chat as part of a

virtual team that will you know go out

there and help promote the web3 service

and um create content maybe in return

for token incentives and so on um and

web3 is all about giving ownership to

you know the end user and you know the

the ultimate destination of that is

things like social networks that run uh

under the full transparent control of of

of community Dallas um and and that's

what you can do if you go fully on chain

and that's what's happening on the

internet computer ST I agree and well we

know that onchain is going to be the

future because every other ecosystem out

there every other blockchain claims and

uses the fact that you know you can do

this onchain and most recently we've

seen uh Solana celebrating the whole

ecosystem got together and celebrated

that they managed to send the first

email V VI the salana blockchain and as

you mentioned open chat we have been

doing sending messages and photos and

transactions everything happening on

chain for the past 3 years so have any

other ecosystems reached out to defini

to start using the ICP infrastructure

and actually get onchain well look so so

first of all remember that you know

there was a lot of smok and mirrors in

blockchain right there's a lot of

decentralization theater so I I I

haven't looked into the salana onchain

demo but look what I can tell you is

salana can't store a phone photo right

yeah so how on Earth is it storing

emails which might have PDF attachments

and things like that doesn't make any

sense what they're probably doing is

storing the hash of an email on chain or

something like that i' get I'd imagine

right which is something very different

to running you know a communication

system on chain so um you know you also

he a lot of about blockchains you know

running AI right like I'll go on a limb

here and tell you that it's all nonsense

right there's not a single blockchain in

existence I'm aware of other than the

internet computer that's running AI

smart contracts but you know people do

this kind of like somebody got in a

panel with Jens Nang you know got

touched by Jens Nang from Nvidia and you

know it was like near to the moon it's

AI right but you know near is not

running AI smart contracts salana has

this thing about

AI again you know they can't even store

a phone photo and Shing I mean you need

to be able to store you know billions of

neuron weights if you're going to you

know hold them in memory smart contract

memory if you want to run an AI model as

a smart contract so obviously if you

can't store a phone photo then you can't

do that right it's like some kind of

connected to chat gbt so I think that's

you know CH is challenging for people

out there to to see through all this

noise and this hype um but you know I

can tell people categorically today

there is only one third generation

blockchain in existence and it's the

internet computer um and uh you know

today it's it's it's running um neural

networks it's more contracts in the

future um we're working very hard to

improve the network and remove some of

the limits so people can actually run

large language models uh as smart

contracts it's not possible today

because uh without getting too many

technical details uh internet computer

is a web assembly system right it's a

web assembly virtual machine we're using

a 32-bit virtual machine and um uh that

that means you can only 32 bits means

you can only have 4 gig memory it's like

going back to you know Windows 95 or

something right and uh you know that

limits du to about two billion

parameters large language models need

about six or seven right um so but but

but we're about to go to 64 bit WM which

means we can raise the the the the main

memory limit for smallart contracts to

something like 15 gig and and then and

then and then it'll be possible and

we're also working on the efficiency and

introducing recently uh we made a

decision to propose that Sim

instructions be introduced into the

virtual machine environment which will

really you know improve efficiency 5x

Etc but you know it's it's a very

techical job um and the technology is

necessarily pretty complicated you know

we have hundreds of like you know phds

and Engineers working on this and the

progress would be pretty quick um but at

the moment of course it's not possible I

think to really run a large landel on on

blockchain but hopefully it will we'll

be we'll be so in a few months right so

those are the reasons why on CH on the

TR comp protocol has been such a big

breakthrough but a lot of people have

been wondering why is it so more

beneficial to have AI on chain as

opposed to having it on AWS okay so you

know here's a statement I I'll go on and

Lim again I'll tell you look I I it's

going to be a few years but in the end

the vast majority of of AI models are

running smart contracts and it's a

really simple is it um AI has a

particular demob for security so um

first of all you know if you run an AI

model on traditional it infrastructure

uh that traditional it infrastructure is

in secure and you can use all the

firewalls in the world all the intrusion

detection in the world U all the

antimalware in the world as we can see

it gets hacked all the time often times

you're going to want to connect AI to

all your most sensitive and confidential

information like say for example you run

like an AI for your startup or your

government Department whatever it is um

and you know it's like an AI which will

schedule meetings and you can ask it

like who's running that team is anybody

blocked has anyone got any ideas for PR

um you know this AI probably is like uh

streaming all all your ORS uh you know

chat messages

emails calendar if it's a techic or jir

and GitHub etc etc right so if if the

hacker can you

know you get onto the it infrastructure

running the AI he's going to get all of

the uh most confidential information and

sensitive information in one place

secondly uh we're going to come to

depend on AI right so if you think about

like 20 years ago before satav you know

if you're going to go from you know

somewhere in a big city or out from the

city into the countryside you start off

by looking at a paper map and you would

memorize the route and you know you keep

that root in your head and you make all

the right turns and you get that like

for most people I I used to do that for

years you know um but if you asked me to

do it now I probably couldn't because

I've I've been using sat now for 20

years and I've of course come to depend

on it right I've lost the skill when

people and organizations introduce AI

you know they're going to lose a lot

skills and they're going to come to

depend on the AI and they're going to

use their brains for something else

right that means if you're for example

using the AI is an Nexus of information

in your organization and coordination um

you're going to come to depend on it and

if that AI stops working uh it's going

to be very bad um you you know because

every was depending on it and a bit like

if you took satin AB way dat so it's

very important that AI you know is

highly resilient one of the advantages

of smart contracts is they're

Unstoppable going in like a you know one

error that makes the whole thing crash

it's Unstoppable so um that's another

reason you got security you got uh

unstop you know resilience it's

Unstoppable but also you can make it

autonomous so you know I've been talking

about like imagine you can an internet

computer AI SM

contract that audits the code of

solidity contact contracts on ethereum

so today you got to you got to Ether

scan you can see this L you count

through a smart contract right uh and

let's say you want to interact with a

smart contract thing is most people

don't read solidy so they're not and any

even if you're ay Dev you don't want to

audit someone else's smle trick but you

know if you've got an internet computer

smart contract uh which with a large

language model inside that can um

validate ethereum uh smart contracts and

check there's no you know re-entrancy

bugs back doors that could lead to a rug

pull uh malicious code that could make

you know uh malware that could make the

smart contract interact maliciously with

other smart contracts you know account

with accounts with well um now you know

that AI smart contract can you know

download the rout hash of The Ether

smart contract get the code from GitHub

read the the the um you know solidity

and you know issue a certificate like a

kite Mark that says this SM contract has

been ordered by Ai and it didn't find

any problems and you could put that on

on ether scab and that will give people

at much higher level of assurance that

you know oh look here's theil code I

don't read it or I haven't got time to

read it um but but that's okay the AI

which anyway is going to be probably

better than the best smart contract

auditor um has gone through it and and

made sure it's safe to use

now the reason this should run as a the

a auditor should run as a smart contract

is otherwise you have to trust the human

being that controls it that's autonomy

so you know smart contracts can be

autonomous so in this case the smart

contract um doesn't have a human

controller and we know that if this CER

this ethereum SM contract is certified

that's because the logic of the AI says

that it's safe um not because some

controller of the AI because it's

running on traditional it right has

issued the certification themselves and

that's autonomy so you got these three

Magic Properties small conts are

tamperproof giv you security they're

Unstoppable gives you resilience and

they're autonomous and that removes

intermediaries which of course is the

yeah you know the thing that Satoshi

started with like if you want to trust

something there better not be an

intermediate and uh so if you want to

trust the smart contract auditing there

better not be a human intermediary that

could have done that credit certificate

you better be sure that the AI is

autonomous so you know those are those

are the things you can only get if you

run um the you you run this you know you

run the AI as a smart contract and

that's why I think in the long run you

know uh people are going to need AI this

secure people are going to need AI that

um is resilient and of course within the

web 3 space we're going to need

autonomous AIS without intermas um and

that's why I think in the long run the

majority of small contracts will run as

sorry excuse me the majority of AIS will

rning smart contracts yeah absolutely

and I remember one of the slides in one

of your presentations in 2023 if I'm not

mistaken cyber crime or cyber security

accounted for a huge number something

like $1.8 billion only in that year

alone so hosting stuff on the internet

computer protocol would absolutely cut

this uh huge number Sasha I used to have

my numbers wrong I think it was um last

year this year we spent $1.8 trillion on

um IT personnel okay and actually that's

a separate thing you know if you look at

it Personnel they spend 95% of their CH

their time chasing complexity and we

believe building on third generation

blockchain greatly simplifies R&D and

will make it Personnel much more uh

productive um so whether that's to save

costs or have them you know build better

systems sub to you um but that's one

thing uh people spend a trillion dollars

a year on on software licenses you if

you build on blockchain like third

generation blockchain you don't need

databases for example right the data

sticks to the code on third generation

blockchain um then there's the security

piece right um we spend about $200

billion a year on cyber security um but

that doesn't tell the whole story the

cost of cyber crime next year 2025 is

predicted to pass $10 trillion 10

trillion that's like more it's going to

be more than 35% of the United States

GDP so cyber crime has become an issue

uh you know for the world on a par with

um war and climate change and you know

that $10 trillion would be far better

reinjected into the economy or you know

spent helping the developing world uh

modernize right so uh you know

traditional

it there is no real solution to the

problem of cyber crime and cyber

breaches and so on the fact is you know

you start off with the operating system

was most secure and you try and

configure it to make it secure you put

databases and you know platform software

onto it web servers and everything else

you know you try and configure that so

secure but you know the whole thing and

you know then put on the cloud which

isn't really secure then you should

orchestrate it with kubernetes which

isn't secure but then you're like shoot

this this whole thing I built this whole

rub Goldberg machine that I built with

traditional it it's a completely you

know

insecure mess so what do you do well you

try and protect it with cyber security

you then you try and put a firewall

around it you have intrusion logging to

detection to see if something someone's

got past the firewall you know you have

antimalware to see if you any of the

software updates you're making uh have a

virus inside or something or rans

somewhere inside the trouble is it's

completely fallible if you start with

something that's fundamentally insecure

and you try and protect it with cyber

security um you know inevitably people

going to get past the cyber security and

then it all goes horribly wrong and

we're seeing this all the time so um you

know we believe that building on third

generation blockchain provides a

complete solution because you don't even

need cyber security it's a bit like open

chat you know it's this kind of social

network building third generation

blockchain uh that has crypto inside it

doesn't have any cyber security

protections it doesn't even have a

cybercity team has never been hacked so

imagine that web 3 kind of that

demonstration of of a web 3 architecture

within the government Enterprise space

actually we we got a project was

supporting called Utopia which

repurposes uh ICP technology for the

government and big cor corporate domains

because they can't build on a public

network but you know that that

technology be used to create like a new

kind of private Sovereign Cloud uh the

servus where you build with what's

essentially smart contract technology

and and now you don't have to worry

about getting hacked anymore you don't

have to worry about you also get

resilience you know much better

resilience um because of course you know

smart contracts are unstoppable or orbe

it they won't have so many nodes and

they'll be running it themselves and so

on but you know the technology has Ro

replicability outside of web 3 and

that's what we're going to see happen um

and one of the the biggest drivers of

all this of course will be just the ever

increasing cost of cyber crime and the

ever greater difficulty of using cyber

security to protect systems and which by

the way is about to get worse with ai ai

can support hackers and AI can even

write malware AI can even run do hacks

itself so cyber cyber security

challenges about to become you know in

in the next 5 years much much more

difficult right so this should answer

the question of people that will wonder

why does onchain really matter so right

now they're trying to build on a

foundation that is flawed and it will

eventually go down uh and instead they

could use an evolved solution which is

building on internet computer protocol

uh with so many benefits that you just

mentioned totally and look you know a

lot of people have come in Into the Web

three bace more recently people like me

have been around for a lot longer um and

you know if you like my uh schooling in

thinking with respect to where 300

centralization really came uh from

sato's early work right and and uh you

know the fundamental um level is all

about removing inter medors so uh you

know and and BL do this by having

multiple people verify competation um

one analogy I actually got guy called

Nick Sao which I kind of like is about

the ticket Ripper and the ticket seller

so even if if you go back to the earlier

Cinemas right you would find that as you

come in there's a ticket office where

you buy a ticket and then you go through

the door there's somebody who rips the

ticket right there's a ticket seller and

the ticket Ripper why do you have two

people why is the cinema paying even a

small Cinema why is it paying for extra

stuff well the answer is that if you

only have one person at a ticket ticket

office um you know a group of their

friends can come along and they can

issue them or just you know let them go

through they don't even need a ticket

right but because youve got a ticket

seller and a ticket ripper in order for

that you know for the employee to defro

defro the cinema kind of thing um you

know then have to collude with the

ticket uh the ticket seller so that's

why you have a ticket seller and the

ticket Ripper and of course the you with

a blockchain you you know you do that on

a much bigger scale you have far more

than two people validating things so

once you've done that right um You don't

have to trust the result uh and and then

you can move intermed an intermed is

something like a bank right that can

close your account or steal your money M

but an intermed by the way is is Amazon

web services right and um you know they

even shut down that thing that was

rightwing was it paror or something like

that before the election where Trump

lost um I'm not saying I'm a trump

supported but you know I'm certainly

against social media Services running on

cloud being shut down for political

purposes and also the developers are

intermed right like the developers if

you've got if you're interacting with a

web3 service that's running on abs of

web

services uh you know the developers got

the username and password right and that

means they can log in they can

arbitrarily change your content they can

change the user experience they can

inject malicious code that will steal

your crypto all kinds of bad stuff so

that's why intermediaries have to be

removed and the way to try move in

metrius is to run 100% on blockchain

yeah so you know web 3 web 3 is all

about running on blockchain and really

nobody should be Building Systems on

Amazon web services anymore that's why

we got third generation blockchain which

allows you to to achieve what we call

full stack decentralization where

everything's on the Chain there's no

intermediary um if you put if you've

granted control over you know your

systems your your service to a to a dow

you removed all the black back doors

it's it's completely secure the

communities in control uh that's true

web three for us you mentioned Utopia

and that is going to help big companies

and institutions start developing on the

internet computer protocol can you give

us some names of uh institutions or big

companies that are planning to build if

not already building on the internet

computer well I mean uh so so first of

all internet computer is really a web

three platform I think over time you'll

see more and more companies using it um

but if you look at governments and and

and um corporations generally speaking

they won't build in public network now

in the case of the internet computer

it's not like a normal blockchain it

does provide a a level of privacy for

the contents of smart contracts and the

computations they perform and and and

that's because the protocol controls you

know which nodes that that the smart

contracts replicated on through the

subnet architecture um and there's too

much computation we to download all you

just instead interact with smart

contract having said that though if

you're interacting with a smart contract

with the internet computer the internet

computer Network BL you know the

blockchain behind the scenes is you know

replicating the computation of data over

these node machines and uses a system

called deterministic decentralization so

every node machine uh is is owned and

operated by a different node provider uh

you know typically in different data

centers different geographies and

different jurisdictions Etc right um but

nonetheless it is being you know the the

data competition is being replicated so

if you're a big Corporation you're like

well or a government my data is on the

public network that means that all these

different different companies have got a

copy of it right so you know web 3 it

doesn't matter in the future it will

matter less because the protocol will

provide even stronger you know privacy

protections um but for now you know it's

like it you know public networks are

really for web 3 um or shared systems so

you know there was a system called the

the the um voluntary recycling credits

uh VRC exchange and that was built in

the the the um internet computer and we

we announced this appears this huge

environmental conference uh mainly for

government recently and you know that

that was like you know renberger you

know big big uh business management

consultancy uh BR which is a huge like

12 13,000 person company in in in UAE

that that does waste management stuff uh

Isa like the uh International Sol of

waste Association someone for the

Brazilian government and so on and I

believed after after that demo there was

you know like um

inbound for like 12 13 different

governments want to participate so

that's like a Consortium system though

right so uh you know what you that was

like an exchange uh and it's really

worth looking at the demo or even

getting access to it check it out what's

possible to build uh it runs on the

internet computer buil entirely from uh

small contracts that even serve the user

experience and once those consortiums

once that's all finalized actually it'll

be like the the service nervous system

Dow that currently would control some of

the social you know typically has tens

of thousands of people controlling a

internet service currently right um now

same technology will be used for like a

a Consortium of you know big business

and governments where you might have a

hundred people organizations

participating and holding the governor

tokens um and you know they together

will you know uh control the logic of

the VC exchange which which is really to

to you know you know people you heard

about carbon credits it's does the same

thing for recycling so someone is

recycling Plastics in Brazil for example

uh they can Min some recycling credits

and then some company like Coca-Cola

they you know inside those Coca-Cola

cans there's a plastic sheath and they

want to say that they've recycled it all

so what they do is they buy recycling

credits right um but but you know uh the

beautiful thing is that it's there's no

gatekeeper right this is like an open

exchange there's no owner there's no one

who controls it it's controlled by a dow

and the people who have Governor tokens

are people in the field of you know uh

recycling which are some of the ICB

projects that you think should get more

recognition uh what are the projects

that you are looking at man the trouble

is right I got to be really careful

because you know I'm so busy and in so

many ways often times I'm totally

unaware of amazing projects and so what

happens is I tend to go back to projects

that I know because they were early or

I'm linked to them in some way I mean

that's why I always talk about open chat

is one of the first uh social networks

on on on the internet computer and

really is unfair because there's a lot

of people building stuff I I give you an

example one uh that doesn't even use

it's it's Dow control but they create

their own Dow framework as tager tager

is amazing that's really Innovative and

they're exploring like how you can

completely redefine social media using

web 3 um and some really interesting

stuff going on that um but but again you

know that's another project I've looked

at because they actually had a problem

with their Dow they couldn't update

tagger anymore so they got the network

nervous system which is the main D that

runs into second computer to save it

yeah so again like I'm familiar with

there and I know there's lots and lots

of other projects um there was actually

a project I tweeted that I never even

heard of before which is uh you know

messing you know using the internet

computer to verify zero knowledge proofs

and then you know pushing uh the using

chain Fusion which is an internet

computer technology to push you know a

call to a Smart contract saying yeah

this uh uh you know this uh zero proof

has been validated I mean there's so

much stuff going on um and so I wouldn't

want to call out any individual project

having just done it one I'm excited

about but again it's not fair cuz I know

the guy behind it is dragons and you

know dragons I can tell you is is

definitely a dark horse I don't know if

they'll ever finish it that's the danger

but there's actually a big team working

H and and a large portion of their team

including the founder uh the the

founders and were behind Neopets as just

super smart people like this guy he had

1% of intern advertising from his dor

room went on from that to near Pats and

and then after that other games and then

he got into you know the big early

person in behind the scenes in ethereum

and ethereum defi um and uh yeah I'm

super excited exit I feel like if they

can finish that game uh it'll probably

be the biggest game on web 3 it'll be

huge so I I just hope they finish it

because I've looked at it and what I've

seen is super exciting um what else but

he know lot people lots of people trying

to do he like was it copia again it's a

project that's you know going to take a

long time but they built like a kind of

Minecraft like World which loads

straight into the browser and it's

incredible it'll load into the browser

on a desktop in like a few seconds so

that's what I'd like to see yeah

absolutely thank you very much for your

time it's been a pleasure to talk talk

to you and I wanted to do a longer

interview one day at the definity

headquarter in Zurich if you're

available and uh it's been a pleasure

talking to you and it's been a blast to

you thank you very much thank you byebye