Fareed Zakaria โ€” Revolutions & Global Affairs | Prof G Conversations

Prof G Conversations
6 Apr 202448:27

Summary

TLDRIn a thought-provoking discussion, the host engages with a renowned guest on the pivotal revolutions that have shaped world history, emphasizing the Industrial Revolution's transformative impact on global economics and societal standards of living. The conversation delves into the current technological revolution, exploring its profound social and psychological implications. The discussion also addresses the cultural and political backlash triggered by rapid global changes, highlighting the challenges and potential paths forward in the context of American politics and international relations, including the complex dynamics between the US, China, Russia, and Iran.

Takeaways

  • ๐Ÿ’ก The Industrial Revolution is identified as the most transformative event in human history, causing a dramatic increase in average income and living standards.
  • ๐Ÿ“ Fareed Zakaria's new book, 'Age of Revolutions', explores significant revolutions throughout history, including the economic, French, Industrial, and present-day revolutions like globalization, technology, identity, and geopolitics.
  • ๐Ÿ“ฐ Technological advancements have not only accelerated economic growth but also introduced a new digital economy, significantly influencing societal and psychological aspects of life.
  • ๐Ÿ›  The digital revolution has transitioned the world from a focus on physical assets to digital ones, changing how various sectors, including transportation and energy, operate.
  • ๐Ÿ—ฃ AI's potential to multiply human cognitive capabilities raises questions about its impact on human identity and societal structures.
  • ๐Ÿ“š Historical revolutions often lead to significant political and identity shifts, reflecting on current global and domestic political landscapes.
  • ๐ŸŒ The backlash against rapid changes brought about by revolutions is a recurring theme, influencing current geopolitics and the rise of nationalist movements.
  • ๐Ÿ–ฅ The liberal international order faces challenges from countries opposing Western values, with outcomes affecting global stability and power dynamics.
  • ๐Ÿ›ก Fareed Zakaria discusses the importance of actively defending and promoting progress and individual liberty to ensure the continuation of a peaceful and prosperous international order.
  • ๐Ÿšฆ Zakaria argues for the strategic necessity of maintaining the liberal international order, emphasizing the significance of willpower and leadership in navigating geopolitical tensions.

Q & A

  • What is the main argument presented in the book 'Age of Revolutions'?

    -The main argument of the book is that significant technological and economic changes lead to identity and political revolutions, followed by a backlash. The author discusses how this pattern has played out through history, including the recent revolutions in economics, technology, identity, and geopolitics.

  • How does the Industrial Revolution compare to the technological advancements of the past century?

    -The Industrial Revolution is considered a discontinuity in human history as it marked the first time humans were able to escape poverty and improve their standard of living on a sustained basis. In contrast, while the technological advancements of the past century have been dramatic, they have not shown the same level of economic growth described as 'going parabolic' in the way the Industrial Revolution did.

  • What are the social and psychological consequences of the digital revolution?

    -The digital revolution has created a new economy and a new mental world, shifting from a world of atoms to one of bits and bytes. This shift has significant social and psychological consequences, including changes in how humans perceive themselves and interact with each other, as well as the potential for AI to multiply human cognitive abilities.

  • What is the author's view on the potential risks and benefits of AI?

    -The author sees AI as having the potential to solve major problems like disease and global warming, which is fascinating. However, it also raises concerns about the implications for human identity and the potential for AI to replace human minds, leading to uncharted waters.

  • How does the author address the backlash to the recent revolutions in the book?

    -The author argues that the current backlash is a cultural reaction to the dramatic changes brought about by the revolutions in economics, technology, identity, and geopolitics. This backlash is characterized by a resistance to the changes and a desire to return to a previous state of affairs.

  • What is the significance of the agrarian land power versus maritime trading power dynamic?

    -The dynamic of agrarian land power versus maritime trading power is significant as it represents a recurring pattern of great power rivalry throughout history. The author suggests that the current tensions between China and the US can be seen in this context, with cultural and geopolitical aspects influencing the rivalry.

  • How does the author view the role of the United States in the current global order?

    -The author views the United States as a dominant power with significant technological and economic advantages. However, the ability to maintain this position is contingent on the U.S. effectively navigating the current backlash and maintaining its commitment to the liberal international order.

  • What is the author's perspective on the rise of other nations like China and India?

    -The author acknowledges the rise of nations like China and India, noting their scale and vibrant economies. He suggests that these nations, along with others, are becoming politically stable and culturally independent, leading to a world of middle powers that are not easily directed by any single superpower.

  • How does the author suggest the United States should navigate the current global landscape?

    -The author suggests that the United States needs to effectively use diplomacy and leverage its strengths to navigate the current global landscape. This includes addressing internal dysfunction and presenting a unified front to handle challenges from rising powers and the backlash against recent revolutions.

  • What are the implications of the current conflict between Israel and Hamas, according to the author?

    -The author sees the conflict as a complex issue where Israel has gone from an appropriate response to an overreaction. He raises concerns about the long-term strategy and the potential for further radicalization as a result of the conflict. The author suggests that a sustainable solution involves addressing the Israeli concerns of security while finding a way to create stable governance in Gaza.

  • What is the author's view on the potential for a two-state solution in Israel and Palestine?

    -The author believes that a two-state solution is necessary but acknowledges the challenges, including the need for a demilitarized Palestinian state due to security concerns. He suggests that any solution will need to address the current radicalization and find a way to disentangle the two peoples.

Outlines

00:00

๐ŸŒ Global Peace and Economic Growth

The speaker discusses the unprecedented period of global peace and economic expansion in human history. They highlight the significant reduction in conflicts and the explosion of global economics and trade. The speaker attributes the dramatic rise in living standards to the Industrial Revolution, which lifted humanity out of poverty and set the stage for continuous improvement in living conditions over the past 250 years. They also touch on the impact of recent technological advancements and predict that the digital revolution will continue to transform the economy and society.

05:01

๐Ÿšซ Addressing the AI Revolution and its Implications

The conversation shifts to the potential impact of AI on society. The speaker argues that while AI offers immense potential for solving complex problems like disease and climate change, it also poses challenges that need to be managed. They discuss the concept of 'kill switches' to control AI and the societal and psychological changes brought about by technological advancements. The speaker emphasizes the importance of understanding the historical context of revolutions to navigate the current era of rapid change.

10:02

๐ŸŒ Geopolitical Tensions and Cultural Backlash

The speaker delves into the geopolitical tensions and cultural backlash resulting from rapid technological and economic changes. They describe how these transformations have led to identity and political revolutions, with a particular focus on the current backlash against globalization, technology, and shifting cultural norms. The speaker expresses concern over the rise of reactionary forces and the potential for conflict, while also highlighting the importance of maintaining a liberal international order.

15:03

๐Ÿ’ก The Role of Technology in Global Dominance

The speaker discusses the historical pattern where nations leading in technology tend to become dominant global powers. They point out that the United States, with its technological advancements and strong economy, is well-positioned to handle challenges from other nations like China and Russia. However, they also note that internal dysfunction and lack of coordinated effort could undermine this advantage. The speaker stresses the need for unity and strategic diplomacy in navigating global power dynamics.

20:04

๐Ÿ“ˆ The Rise of the Rest and Shifts in World Order

The speaker examines the rise of nations outside the United States, such as China and India, and their impact on the world order. They note that while these countries are gaining strength and confidence, they are also becoming more culturally and politically independent. The speaker highlights the challenge of managing a world where no single superpower can dictate terms, and the importance of diplomacy in fostering collective action among these 'middle powers.'

25:05

๐Ÿ•Š๏ธ The Search for Stability in the Middle East

The speaker discusses the complex situation in the Middle East, particularly focusing on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They argue that Israel's response to Hamas' actions may have been excessive and counterproductive, potentially radicalizing more Palestinians. The speaker suggests that a long-term sustainable strategy is needed, one that involves creating a stable governance structure in Gaza and addressing the root causes of conflict. They emphasize the importance of understanding the cultural and historical context to find a viable solution.

30:08

๐Ÿค Cultural Empathy and the Path to Peace

The speaker reflects on the need for cultural empathy in resolving conflicts, using the Israeli-Palestinian situation as an example. They suggest that understanding the objectives and motivations of groups like Hamas is crucial for finding a path to peace. The speaker also discusses the potential for a two-state solution and the importance of demilitarizing the Palestinian state to ensure Israel's security. They highlight the role of moderate Arabs and the Palestinian Authority in creating a stable and peaceful future.

35:09

๐ŸŽ“ The State of Higher Education and Campus Culture

The speaker critiques the current state of higher education, particularly the focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives. They argue that these efforts, while well-intentioned, have led to increased segregation and a more hostile campus environment. The speaker suggests that the emphasis on ascriptive identities is fundamentally opposed to the liberal project and calls for a renewed focus on integration and commonality among students.

Mindmap

Keywords

๐Ÿ’กIndustrial Revolution

The Industrial Revolution refers to the period of rapid industrial growth and socioeconomic change that began in the late 1700s and continued into the 19th century. It marked a significant shift from agrarian societies to industrial ones, characterized by the introduction of new machinery, mass production, and the rise of the factory system. In the video, the speaker emphasizes the transformative impact of the Industrial Revolution on human history, noting its role in lifting people out of poverty and setting the stage for continuous improvements in living standards over the following 250 years.

๐Ÿ’กGlobalization

Globalization is the process by which businesses or other organizations develop international influence or start operating on an international scale. It involves the integration of economies, societies, and cultures through trade, investment, technology, and the exchange of ideas. In the video, the concept of globalization is discussed as one of the pivotal revolutions shaping world history, alongside the economic, technological, and identity revolutions, highlighting its role in creating interdependence among nations and fostering economic growth.

๐Ÿ’กDigital Revolution

The Digital Revolution refers to the radical changes in the way information and data are created, stored, shared, and consumed due to the advent of digital technology and the internet. It has led to the transformation of many aspects of daily life, including communication, commerce, and entertainment. In the transcript, the speaker discusses the Digital Revolution as a continuation of the historical trend of technological advancements that have exponentially increased productivity and created a new economy based on information and services.

๐Ÿ’กIdentity Revolution

An Identity Revolution refers to significant changes in how individuals or groups perceive themselves and their place in society. This can involve shifts in cultural, political, or social identities that often accompany major historical events or technological changes. In the context of the video, the Identity Revolution is one of the four present-day revolutions mentioned, emphasizing the impact of globalization and technology on shaping personal and collective identities, and how these shifts influence political and social dynamics.

๐Ÿ’กGeopolitics

Geopolitics is the study of the effects on international relations of the geographic distribution of land and sea power, which can include the strategic significance of countries and regions. It examines how geography influences political power and how nations interact with one another. In the video, geopolitics is discussed in the context of the current global landscape, particularly focusing on the tensions between land-based and maritime powers, and how these dynamics influence international order and conflict.

๐Ÿ’กBacklash

Backlash refers to a strong negative reaction by a segment of society to changes that have occurred, often perceived as threats to established norms, values, or interests. In the video, the term is used to describe the cultural and political resistance to the rapid changes brought about by the revolutions in economics, technology, identity, and geopolitics. The backlash is seen as a natural response to the disruptions caused by these revolutions, leading to a struggle between the forces of progress and those seeking to maintain the status quo.

๐Ÿ’กLiberal International Order

The Liberal International Order refers to a system of international relations based on the principles of liberal democracy, free trade, and the rule of law. It emphasizes the importance of international institutions and cooperation in maintaining global peace and stability. In the video, the speaker discusses the current challenges to this order, particularly from countries like Russia and China that resist the influence of Western liberal democracy and seek to assert their own models of governance and development.

๐Ÿ’กCultural Counterrevolution

A Cultural Counterrevolution is a movement or trend that seeks to reverse or resist cultural changes, often by promoting traditional values and practices. It can be a response to rapid social, political, or technological transformations that some segments of society find unsettling or threatening. In the transcript, the speaker mentions cultural counterrevolution in the context of the backlash against the revolutions in technology, identity, and geopolitics, highlighting how it manifests in efforts to preserve traditional roles and resist the influence of Western liberal democracy.

๐Ÿ’กAI Revolution

The AI Revolution refers to the transformative impact of artificial intelligence on various aspects of society, including the economy, healthcare, and governance. It involves the development and application of AI technologies that can perform tasks previously done by humans, leading to increased efficiency and the potential for new solutions to complex problems. In the video, the AI Revolution is discussed as a continuation of the historical pattern of technological advancements, with the potential to significantly alter the nature of work and the way societies function.

๐Ÿ’กGreat Power Peace

Great Power Peace refers to a period of relative stability and absence of large-scale conflicts among the world's most powerful nations. It is characterized by a balance of power and a set of norms and institutions that prevent major wars between these states. In the video, the speaker reflects on the current era as one of the longest periods of great power peace in human history, raising questions about whether this peace can be sustained in the face of growing geopolitical tensions and the challenges posed by new technologies.

Highlights

The longest period of great power peace and the greatest explosion of global economics and trading in human history is being threatened by a potential return to the jungle of realpolitik.

The author's new book, 'Age of Revolutions: Progress and Backlash from 1600 to the Present', discusses pivotal revolutions that have shaped world history, including the economic, French, Industrial, and present-day revolutions in globalization, technology, identity, and geopolitics.

The Industrial Revolution is highlighted as the most transformative event in human history, lifting people out of poverty and raising living standards for over 250 years.

The digital revolution has created a new economy and mental world, with software eating the world and AI controlling software, leading to a potential paradigm shift in how we live and work.

The social and psychological consequences of technological changes are as significant as the economic effects, altering our conceptions of human identity and potential.

The AI Revolution could multiply human cognitive abilities, leading to dramatic changes in problem-solving capabilities, but also raises concerns about uncharted territories.

The current backlash against dramatic technological and economic changes is leading to identity and political revolutions, with societies grappling with cultural reactions.

The tension between land and maritime powers is still relevant today, with the US and China representing a modern version of this dynamic.

The US must demonstrate willpower and staying power to maintain its position as a global leader and uphold the liberal international order.

The rise of the rest, including nations like China and India, is shifting the world order, with these countries gaining strength, confidence, and independence.

The US continues to lead in technology and has significant economic and military advantages, but internal dysfunction threatens its ability to effectively utilize these strengths.

The situation in Israel and Gaza is a complex issue of proportionate response and long-term sustainable strategy, with Israel's actions potentially leading to further radicalization.

A potential solution for Gaza involves a stable governance structure without a military, addressing Israeli security concerns while providing a path for Palestinian self-determination.

The cultural and political divide in the US is a significant challenge, with the need for leadership that addresses both economic opportunities and cultural anxieties.

American universities excel at teaching critical thinking and problem-solving, but have seen a rise in segregated and divisive identity politics that undermine the liberal education project.

The Biden administration has made significant public investments in America, but needs to engage more in cultural issues and reassure the public that it is not aligned with radical agendas.

The potential for cultural and ideological alignment between Iran and the US exists, but the current regime in Iran is deeply entrenched and resistant to change.

The key to avoiding self-inflicted defeat lies in addressing both economic and cultural challenges, with a focus on integration and shared American values.

Transcripts

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we set up this system where you have a

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much you know it's the longest period of

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great power peace in human history um

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it's the greatest explosion of global

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economics and trading in human history

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the lowest number of conflicts uh in you

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know in human history is that all going

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to go away because we're going to allow

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a return to the Jungle of real

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[Music]

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politic fared where does this podcast

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find you I'm in New York at my at my

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house oh nice uh so let's bust right

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into it your new book age of revolutions

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progress and backlash from 1600 to the

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president walks The Reader through

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pivotal revolutions that have shaped

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world history the economic Revolution

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the French Revolution the Industrial

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Revolution and four present day

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revolutions globalization technology

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identity and

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geopolitics let's start with the past

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revolutions stack rank them in order of

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how they changed their trajectory of

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History what if you were going to write

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a book on one of them which one would it

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be it would be the Industrial Revolution

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the Industrial Revolution changed the

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world you can see this in a very simple

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graph if you look at a graph of per

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capita income average income of human

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beings in the world uh over the last

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2,000 years it's basically a flatline

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for

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1,750 of those years and then sometime

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around the 18th century it starts to go

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up and then it's like a hockey stick

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graph it just goes way up we go roughly

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speaking from a couple hundred per

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capita income per person to 5,000 6,000

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7,000 and that dramatic rise is

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basically because of the Industrial

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Revolution so if you ask yourself what

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is the single thing that has changed the

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course of human history the most

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discontinuous feature of human life it

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is the Industrial Revolution where

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finally human beings were able to get

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themselves out of poverty out of real

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grinding medieval poverty and

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almost on a sustained basis keep raising

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their standards of living for 250 years

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but hasn't technology their technology

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Revolution sort of hockey sticked the

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hockey stick and that is what happened

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in those previous you know the pr the

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previous Century has gone parabolic I

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think in the last 50 years no the

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microprocessor

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vaccines um internal combustion engines

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hasn't it even gotten more parabolic in

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the last four or five decades so you

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know the data does not show um economic

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growth going parabolic in that way as

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you know you've seen some Optics of

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productivity and you've seen um rises in

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you know in in certainly the US for

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example has done very well over the last

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30 years but part of it is I think that

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that was starting from such a low base

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you know you you starting with people

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who are barely having one meal a day uh

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so I think you haven't seen quite that

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in the data but I agree with you and

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that's part of what I try to explain in

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the book that the the nature of the

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digital Revolution if we can just call

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it that for a moment is that it has

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created a whole new economy and a whole

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new mental you know world for us uh Mark

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Andre's famous uh blog post where he

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talks about software eating the world

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gets it exactly right the world used to

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be run it was a world of atoms and what

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happened is the the digital Revolution

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came and it created a world of bits and

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bites that now control that those atoms

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so actually the internal combustion

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engine is is kind of irrelevant now what

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a car is becoming is software on Wheels

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and it's the software that controls that

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and now what's going to happen is you're

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going to have ai that controls the

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software and those things become param

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and and the point I'm trying to make in

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the book is not so much about the

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economic effect it's the sort of Social

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and psychological consequences of these

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changes which you know and care a lot

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about it is mindblowing in every way to

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think about that you know human beings

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have never had the power to multiply

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their minds the way that AI is going to

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be able to allow them to do what does

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that do to our conceptions of who we are

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as human beings and what does history

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tell us about there's a lot of

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catastrophizing around Ai and I can't

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I'm trying to sort through how much of

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his techn narcissism where people like

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to think that the singular the single

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point of failure that's going to or

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success that's going to destroy or save

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Humanity or if we should really be

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worried about it if as you look through

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history and these revolutions if we're

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going through an AI Revolution what can

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we learn from the past

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revolutions I share your skepticism that

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that it's going to like end human

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existence it's going to extinguish the

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the the universe that stuff has always

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struck me as you know kind of

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catastrophizing and you can see how it

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has the potential but you know human

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beings at the end of the day I had to

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put it in simple terms you can pull the

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plug you can create a kill switch you

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can create for example a simple break

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between the ability of AI and AI or

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Opera machines to access energy at the

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end of the day they need energy to run

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and so you know now you could say those

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kill switches become increasingly

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expensive uh if you're running your

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whole society and your whole economy and

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your whole cities on AI and then you

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suddenly say the only you know the the

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bre is going to be that you lose the

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access to energy well maybe you you then

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lose access to the AI That's running

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everything you know your planes your

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traffic lights everything like that but

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there is a kill switch the effect I

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think that is most likely to happen is

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exactly what's happened with this

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digital Revolution but on steroids

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because I do think that that that piece

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of this is new we until now we have

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always been able to use technology as a

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tool you know the Industrial Revolution

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was fundamentally an energy Revolution

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we were able to make machines that could

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do the work of thousands of humans

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thousands of horses that's why we talk

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about horsepower it was about replacing

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horses and a steam engine by the end

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could replace thousands of horses it

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would do was able to do the work so the

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AI Revolution I think allows you to

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replace mines it allows you to replace

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thousands of Mines because one computer

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one AI program can do what thousands of

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mins used to do that is mind blowing and

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that's the part I I'm fascinated by in

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terms of the potential of what it can do

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in terms of solving problems like

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disease and global warming uh but it's

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also kind of scary we we are entering

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unchartered

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Waters so some revolutions caused

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tremendous productivity some revolutions

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end in World War when now now do

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politics when you look at examining

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these different revolutions and looking

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at the state of American politics or let

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me go broad the state of geop politics

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in

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2024 what lessons from history do you

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glean and what does it say about the

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situation we're in right now so the

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central argument of the book is every

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time you have these massive changes in

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technology and and economics propelling

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some societies for dramatically you get

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two things happen you get an identity

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and a political revolution the identity

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Revolution because you start to think of

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yourself differently um you know that

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starts with the Dutch the Dutch become

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the richest country in Europe but but

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most importantly they start to think of

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themselves differently they're no longer

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part of the Spanish Empire they're Dutch

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they break away they're no longer part

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of the Catholic world they're Protestant

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they break away and those identity

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revolutions create a political

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revolution that's point one and point

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two is you always have a backlash and

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what we are living through right now is

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the backlash to one of the most dramatic

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perhaps the most dramatic revolutions

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that we've had as you said these four

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revolutions uh taking place almost

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simultaneous iously economics in with

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globalization technology with

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information uh identity and geopolitics

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all happening so we are living through

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the the the backlash the cultural

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backlash to all of this how we navigate

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that backlash is going to determine

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where we end up here you know are we

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going to get overwhelmed by it are we

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going to sort of accept the the the

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trumps and brexits and Victor orbons of

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the world who say stop the train I want

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to get off uh the real backlash in a

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sense comes from Russia and China where

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they say and Iran to a certain extent

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where they're all saying we don't want

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any of this world we you know we believe

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that this Western modernity Western

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liberal democracy is ruining the world

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the Western liberal order is corrupt and

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they're fighting back and if for example

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Russia wins in Ukraine what will that do

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to that liberal International order

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that's rested on the premise that you

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can't you can't just take another

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another country's territory by force so

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I I don't think that there is a future

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out there that I can predict for you

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because it depends on our actions but

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what I the lesson I came from is I I

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drew from it is you are you aren't going

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to be able to move forward you are not

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going you know the forces of progress

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and acceleration and individual liberty

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don't win by themselves you know it's

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all going to happen naturally it's you

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can't be fatalistic about this and say

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oh time is on our side you know Steve

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Pinker tells me it's all going to work

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out in the end no you got to fight for

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it you've got you got to really get in

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there and fight back the forces of

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reaction and

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counterrevolution you write in the book

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that throughout history there's often a

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pattern of great power rivalry in which

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an agrarian land power is pitted against

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a maritime trading power uh is this

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still the case today it sounds like

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you're you're describing the the tension

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between China and the US am I to say

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more about that yes both Russia and

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China in some ways are fundamentally

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landow though China has a very large

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coast and you know kind of functions in

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both ways um and they're both launching

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this very spirited Campa and it's not

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just a geopolitical balancing one of the

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things that I realized when reading more

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and more of what Putin and she are

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saying it's a cultural balancing they

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really believe that these ideas of

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Western liberal democracy are

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destabilizing destabilizing their

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societies destabilizing their basis for

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power you know Putin goes on these rants

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about how you know the the the the

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United States is turning into the

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sexual fantasy land or trans rights and

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gay rights uh you know he came out one

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day in favor of JK Rowling against the

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people who were cancelling her xiin ping

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talks a lot about how he wants women

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back in the kitchen you know assuming

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their traditional roles so there's a lot

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of here a lot here that's about cultural

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reaction and cultural

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counterrevolution but the geopolitical

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piece of it is very important because

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they regard the liberal International

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order that the US has set up and and run

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as one where they they don't get to to

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do whatever they want right there are

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constraints There Are Rules there are

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norms and they're going to push they're

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going to keep pushing and we have to

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figure out do we have the uh The

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Willpower to fight back we have the

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capacity Scott if you looking at the

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Cold War the the Coalition against a

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raid against the Soviet Union comprised

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Say by 1970 it was about probably 40% of

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GDP of global GDP um today the Coalition

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that is supporting Ukraine against

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Russia is 60% of global GDP if you throw

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in India and a few others on the on the

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fence you'd get to about 70% of global

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GDP the question is do we have the

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willpower the staying power and most

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importantly in that regard is does the

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leader of the west of the of the Free

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World have that staying power uh um and

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do we want to fight that do we

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understand the stakes and the problem I

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have with Trump on International Affairs

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is I really don't think he understands

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the stakes that we are up against this

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challenge of what is this order that

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we've built since 1945 That's Unique in

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in human history you know nobody before

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that it's like the jungle of real

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politic for thousands of years and then

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we set up this system where you have a

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much you know it's the longest period of

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great power peace in human history um

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the greatest explosion of global

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economics and trading in human history

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the lowest number of conflicts uh in ter

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you know in human history is that all

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going to go away because we're going to

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allow a return to the Jungle of real

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politic it's interesting as you talk

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about pushing back and it strikes me I

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love what you're saying we kind of have

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the muscle it's the question of whether

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we have the mentality or the will

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because I was reading that as a

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percentage of our GDP our military

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spending is actually quite low relative

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to torically but yet just whatever it is

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3% of our GDP is 800 billion which is

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greater than the next 10 economies

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combined I mean we have the resources

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right it it feels as if the great threat

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and this is a thesis and you push back

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or tell me that you know if America was

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a horror movie The call is coming from

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inside of the house it's that we don't

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like each other we can we can battle any

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external threat we just can't we have

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the muscle I'm just not sure we have the

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coordination or we or we're starting to

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self harm thises does that make any

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sense 100% right think about it this way

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Scott you know one of the points in the

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book is that the country that leads in

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technology always ends up being the

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dominant power so it's Netherlands in

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the in the 17th century it's Britain by

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the end of the 18th century it's the

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United States in the 20th century in the

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21st century the United States leads in

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technology like it has never LED before

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like no country in the world has ever

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LED before if you look at the world of

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of information revolution biotech

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nanotech AI whatever you want the US is

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so far ahead in the lead those seven or

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eight companies that that you know are

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top technology companies the market cap

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of those companies is larger than the

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market cap of the entire countries of

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Britain France Germany and Canada put

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together Apple's market cap alone is

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larger than the stock market

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capitalization of the total country of

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Germany we make more energy than anybody

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in the world we make more oil than Saudi

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Arabia we make more natural gas than

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Qatar our banks are the dominant banks

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in the world the dollar is the dominant

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currency in the world and unlike any

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other rich country in the world we are

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demographically vibrant because of

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immigration every other rich country in

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the world is declining in population

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they're basically turning into Florida

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as retirement communities we are vibrant

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you put all that together and you say

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could could we handle China of course we

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can handle China could we handle Russia

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of course we could it's the problem is

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our our our dysfunction within you know

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that's taking this amazing hand of cards

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and making us play it badly you

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described the phenomena you call the

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rise of the rest which examines how

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Nations outside of the US have gained

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strength and confidence which nations

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are you paying the most attention to and

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and how have they kind of shifted the

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world order so when I wrote that book uh

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obviously the one I focused on most was

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China um which was Rising fast and I you

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could see that uh even then um and I

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talked about it as the inevitable

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Challenger um I think India is probably

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the the next most important one I know

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India is having a kind of moment in the

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Sun but it it's basically Justified uh

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it's because there's no other country

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that has the scale that China has and

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India has that scale and it has an

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incredibly vibrant economy it's growing

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from a very slow small base people don't

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right don't completely understand when

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they sort of talk about India as the

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next China so the Chinese economy is

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still 4 and a half times bigger than the

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Indian economy um and so it's India is

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going to have to take a take a while to

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catch up but it is uh on that scale but

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then there are you know under those two

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there's Indonesia there's Brazil there's

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Nigeria there's South Africa and the

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most interesting the feature of all of

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these uh Scott is that they're

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becoming politically stable and

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economically uh Dynamic enough that

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they're getting culturally and

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politically independent and proud so you

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can't boss them around anymore that's

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the Dilemma of the world we're in in

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terms of kind of management if you will

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it's not that there is uh you know uh a

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superpower that can truly rival the

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United States there isn't and it's not

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that the US has declined I mean we are

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still 25% of global GDP you know what we

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were in 1980 when Ronald Reagan was was

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elected 25 % of global GDP it's amazing

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with all this change our share of the

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world economy has stayed the same it's

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the Europeans and the Japanese that have

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gone down the losers but it's a world of

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up middle Powers if you want want to put

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it that way uh you know that aren't

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going to be taking directions from

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Washington and how to navigate a world

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like that how to Corral these countries

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to some collective action that that's

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you know that's where the skill of

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diplomacy becomes really important

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because you don't have you don't quite

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have the muscle you had in the past you

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got to use words as much as

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muscle stay with

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us the last time we spoke we spoke the

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week after October the 7th so it's been

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five months and by the way I was saying

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off mic the video U or the video of the

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podcast we did with you got I think 1.2

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or 1.4 million views and I was I was

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ribbing you that more people watched you

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on this podcast than watch any CNN show

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which is a different talk show about how

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the world of media is changing but what

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in the last 5 months in terms of the war

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in Gaza what give us a sense for the

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state of play how it's

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unfolded and what has surprised you and

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where do you think it's headed sure so I

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mean in terms of these broad systemic

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things that we're talking about it's

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it's worth putting this in perspective

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this is largely a second order uh uh

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issue it's a it's it's a sideshow

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compared to the big forces that are

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shaping the world uh Israel is the

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dominant power in the Middle East and

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Will Remain the dominant power in the

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Middle East because it is the

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technologically most advanced country it

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is politically the mo the most potent it

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hasn't the military that none of these

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other countries can match so you put all

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that together and Israel is not just

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there to stay but it's there to be the

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dominant player

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now is it handling this this challenge

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appropriately my view they went from an

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appropriate response to an overreaction

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and I think I in this regard basically

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share the Biden administration's view

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that they've just gone too far uh Donald

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Rumsfeld used to have a rule which he

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said which I wish he had followed

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himself after the Iraq War but when he

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was Secretary of Defense in the war on

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terror he would say are we creating more

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terrorists than we are killing by our

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actions and I think about that when I

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think about Israel now you know it's

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killed about 15,000 Hamas militants by

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by their own by the Israeli government's

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own count they've killed about 30 odd

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thousand Palestinian civilians they've

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destroyed about 60% of the buildings in

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in uh in in Gaza and if they do Rafa

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it'll probably be worse because those

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these people have now these one and a

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half million people have now been

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displaced three

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times and my question is are you you

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know are you is it worth the next you

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know this last 5,000 Hamas militants

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given the costs you are generating in

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terms of the radicalization of

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Palestinians the radicalization of the

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Arab Street I don't think they've got

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the balance right uh right now frankly

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we got the bounce wrong after 9/11 so I

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understand it there's a lot of rage

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there's a lot of outrage in this

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particularly for Israel a feeling of um

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existential vulnerability that I don't

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think we appre sh in I mean this is a

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country that from the day it was founded

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its neighbors tried to eliminate it and

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then 20 years later in ' 67 tried to

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eliminated again and then in 1973 tried

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to eliminate it you know so this is not

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a case of being paranoid this is a case

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of there are real there were real

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enemies but a lot has changed and Israel

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has become very strong and the question

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it should be asking itself is in a world

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in which these moderate Arabs want to

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make peace with us in this world in

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which you know we have so much more

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strength than the Palestinians if you

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think about it before this and from the

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West Bank there have been no Terror

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attacks on Israel because that wall that

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Ariel Chiron built which I supported at

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the time it worked you know it it had

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just the the the incidence of West Bank

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terrorism went down to basically zero um

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and so that piece of it is I think

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without any question working the the

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challenge is what's the long-term

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sustainable strategy what you know where

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does this go in terms of a post-war

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settlement can you get the Arabs on

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board to create some kind of governing

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structure in Gaza and I think all that

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becomes harder if you're just pummeling

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and pummeling and pummeling and so

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that's my view I I I get Israel's um

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desire to completely eliminate uh the

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the Hamas as a fighting force I just

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think that the price you pay for those

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last 5,000 militants might be quite high

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and I'm not sure you get anything out of

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it because what is Hamas it's the idea

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of armed resistance you know if you kill

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them you're you're saying there aren't

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going to be any Palestinians who believe

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in armed resistance particularly after

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the last 6 months I'm not sure so just

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for the purpose of the discussion some

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push back and what this comes down to is

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what is the proportionate response to

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this type of attack or terrorism right

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and this is almost an impossible thing

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to

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calibrate um I look historically at the

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Japanese killed 2200 servicemen at Pearl

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Harbor we go on to kill 3 million

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Japanese including 100,000 in one night

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and the terms are unconditional

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surrender um al- Qaeda kills 2,800

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Americans we go on to kill 3 to 400,000

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people in

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Afghanistan and Iraq and the terms are

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unconditional surrender we killed 5

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million Germans the terms are

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unconditional

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surrender when Israel is attacked at

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least as severely as we were in any of

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those instances why do they not have the

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same rights to demand unconditional

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surrender it's a great question and the

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fundamental reason is the Palestinians

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live within land that Israel controls

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and are going to be there for the next

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100 years in other words Israel has to

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live with these people and has to figure

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out a way to live with them in a way

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that we didn't have to figure that out

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with the the Germans we didn't have to

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figure that out with the Japanese we

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didn't have to figure that out with the

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Taliban in Afghanistan these are all

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8,000 Mi away different countries

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different this is the problem for the

play23:31

the Israelis but is that at the end of

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the day unless you believe there is

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going to be a wholesale Mass expulsion

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of 5 a half million Palestinians into

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Egypt and Jordan you got to live with

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these people and does it make sense to

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do that to do that in the context of

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people who technically Israel isn't in

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charge of right when you when you take

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land the people who were on that land

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become part part of your legal

play23:57

responsibility so that's to me the

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fundamental difference do you worry that

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if Hamas is left in power power there's

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any sort of

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cizire that we're just going to wash

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rinse and repeat that we're going to

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have the same I mean the people in power

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who uh we're calling for a ceasefire

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we're calling for some sort of a truce

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which we had October the 6 you leave him

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aome power um haven't they just

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explicitly said that they're committed

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to rebuilding taking whatever Aid they

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have and might take a year might take 10

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years but doesn't this just happen again

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unless we figure out a way to quite

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frankly eliminate Hamas the way we

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eliminated the Third Reich or we

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demanded that the emperor in Japan

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acknowledge that he wasn't a God I mean

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aren't we just kicking the can down the

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road and as painful as it might be as

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much of a humanitarian crisis as it

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might be isn't the only

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solution uh to take out Hamas fully so I

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I am very much of the view that hamash

play24:54

should not govern Gaza after this and I

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think that I've talked to people in in

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inq and Egypt who have been working on

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talking frankly to Hamas they believe

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that that that is attainable that is

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already attainable that Hamas does not

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have the capacity to regain control uh

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in in uh in Gaza particularly if you can

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work out some security system post war

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because that that becomes the key uh

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unless you believe you're going to

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literally you know kill every last Hamas

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militant and there will never be another

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one there are going to be some SC

play25:28

scattered remnants of and and Scattered

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violent resistance right so the question

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is who governs Gaza and your ability to

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set up some kind of government of Gaza

play25:40

depends on the you know being able to

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bring in the Arabs bring in the

play25:44

Palestinian Authority but they're not

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going to be willing to come in as

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Israeli Stooges you know they're not

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going to be willing to ride on the back

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of Israeli tanks and govern a a a

play25:55

restive Palestinian population so that's

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that's why I think the dynamic at work

play26:00

that's most important to ask about is

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are you going to be able to get some

play26:03

kind of stable governance in Gaza and

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again that's why I think it's different

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Japan has been governed by by itself for

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5,000 years you you knew that you know

play26:13

when you left Japan the Japanese would

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would would would be governing

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themselves whereas what we are trying to

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do as you say is prevent uh the return

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of Hamas and I really do believe that

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Hamas in that sense is an idea they can

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call it something else they'll call it

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Islamic Jihad they'll call it and some

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new uh term what we're trying to do is

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to make sure that there isn't so much

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radicalization in the population and in

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the broader neighborhood that you can

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get moderate Arabs to come in you can

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get the Palestinian Authority to come in

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create some structure of authority you

play26:46

can then pass it off to that otherwise

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Israel is going to be back in Gaza and

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we know how that movie ended it's a it's

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it what it takes from Israel in terms of

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material in terms of men you know to to

play27:00

run these places and what it takes in

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terms of the fabric of a liberal

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democracy to to run a you know a kind of

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colonial occupation is very very tough

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for Israel to to manage what do you

play27:13

think a solution might look like I mean

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they call you and I'm sure you get these

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called and they say fared what is what

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is what is a post truce world or a

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post-war gaua look like who are the my

play27:27

my sense of is still actually quite

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popular among the populace my my

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understanding is 7% if if anything has

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gotten more popular because of this you

play27:35

know 5 months of pummeling so you got to

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find some way to bring I think to bring

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some in some way the Palestinian

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Authority from the West Bank has to be a

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partner here you got to get the moderate

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Arabs involved because those are the

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people who are going to have credibility

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on the ground um you've got to create

play27:53

some kind of structure that gives people

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hope that there's rapid reconstruction

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of their of their houses you know a

play28:00

return of normaly to their lives and

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then I do think one you thing has come

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out of this whole episode which is the

play28:08

Israelis have always argued for a

play28:10

demilitarized Palestinian state if you

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know if those Israelis who have been

play28:15

willing to to talk about a two-state

play28:17

solution I believe that that argument

play28:20

becomes pretty powerful now in other

play28:23

words you can see why in non

play28:26

demilitarized Palestinian state would be

play28:29

an existential threat to Israel and so

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if you think about you know if you say

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to yourself look you got to have a

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20-year Horizon here you're not going to

play28:37

solve this in a 20-year Horizon the fact

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that maybe you know I would argue in

play28:42

some ways this whole business has made

play28:46

um us all realize not Israel right now

play28:48

but you've got to find some two-state

play28:50

solution otherwise you're going to go on

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with this you know occupation forever

play28:54

and you can't as a democracy as a Jewish

play28:57

liberal democracy

play28:58

but you can also understand that look

play29:00

you can't have a normal Palestinian

play29:02

State because for whatever reason it is

play29:04

infected with enough radicalism and in

play29:07

in in enough violence right now that the

play29:09

Israeli concerns of about security have

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to be addressed and if you can you know

play29:14

if you can imagine those twin forces

play29:17

moving forward that you got to have a

play29:19

political solution but there is not

play29:21

going to be a normal state with a normal

play29:23

military that I think provides outlines

play29:25

for a possible solution because frankly

play29:28

if you had a Palestinian State and they

play29:30

have a flag and a national anthem and a

play29:32

parliament or whatever they you know

play29:33

they whatever however they choose to

play29:35

govern themselves if they don't have an

play29:37

army the worst thing they can do is you

play29:40

know some kind of a terror attack and

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that'll become by the way from as I said

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the West Bank the wall has essentially

play29:46

eradicated that that that threat you you

play29:48

can do the same thing in Gaza you can

play29:50

build effectively a a version of what

play29:52

Chiron built and Israel will be largely

play29:55

impregnable and in that circumstance

play29:58

disentangling these two peoples from

play30:01

their you know from this kind of joint

play30:04

uh ex existence is probably the in the

play30:07

short term the only

play30:09

solution I love what rock uh Robert

play30:12

Mamer said and the fog of war that to to

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defeat an enemy you just you really have

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to empathize with them walk in their

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shoes and really try and understand

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things from their frame and I look at

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the objectives of Hamas or I try to

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understand the objectives of Hamas on

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October the 6 and it was and I'll

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Outline Three you tell me if you agree

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and where this leaves us but one is

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killed

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Jews uh they accomplished that second

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worst day in history for for Jews uh two

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they I think were hoping to bring

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attention to their plight and I think

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they've accomplished that I think

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there's a lot of people in America who

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when they look closely at Israel's

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leadership do you know think Israel has

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not draped itself in glory there are

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huge bigots and racists on the knesset

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over settlements I think there is a

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greater understanding of an appreciation

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for some of the suffering of the

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residents of Gaza I think they've

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achieved that and the third thing is I

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think they were hoping to inspire a

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multi-front war to see above number one

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kill more Jews and that has not happened

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I'm curious if if if I I'm surprised or

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I'm I'm hopeful happy that and I think

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it's the function of two carry strike

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forces sitting offshore but I'm curious

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if if you agree with those three and and

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how they have played out yeah I agree

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entirely with the with those three I

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think you put it exactly right and I

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think that's why uh in some ways I think

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that there's a possible uh path to a

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solution because it has made people

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realize that the current situation is

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unsustainable both for Palestinians and

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Israelis the reason the third hasn't

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happened is is a really interesting one

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because what you're really referring to

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is the fact that at one level Hamas is

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part of a larger strategy of what what

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the Iranians call an AIS of resistance

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Hamas in Gaza Hezbollah in Lebanon the

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Iraq the Iraqi Shia militias in Iraq the

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Assad government uh in in Syria uh and

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the houis in Yemen these are all

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pro-iranian forces that Iran has

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variously encouraged and funded and in

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some ways this is part of that larger

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struggle that that we were talking about

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the Iranian mulas regard America and its

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liberal Democratic ideology as you know

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the kind of great cancer and they regard

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Israel as a Outpost of Western liberal

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democracy in the Middle East that's why

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they call the America the great Satan

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and they call Israel the little

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Satan but they are the Iranians have

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combined with this kind of religious

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ideology the old persan tradition of

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pragmatism and real politics so they're

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aware that they are facing a formidable

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foe in the United States and you talk to

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Administration officials over the years

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by the way and they'll say there's one

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thing very interesting about Iran when

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you push they are very cautious they

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don't needlessly provoke they don't

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needlessly get into uh you know into

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conflicts so if you remember that moment

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when the houthis fire a drone at

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Americans in Jordan and they killed

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three American servicemen that could

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easily have blown up and and the

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Iranians did everything they could to

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Signal a they had not authorized this B

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they did not intend to you know this was

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not a step into in in an escalatory

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cycle if if they had anything to do with

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it Hezbollah nasella the head of

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Hezbollah after the October 6th attack

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made a very interesting speech where he

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said you have our warm wishes you have

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our you know we have you have our

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ideological support but basically you're

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on your own militarily we're not going

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to get into this militarily so again you

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see this very interesting

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pragmatism that they have and I think

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your point Scott is exactly right that

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Biden did exactly the right thing in

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sending those two carrier task forces it

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just reminds them you know if you want

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to escalate this can get very messy and

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the US has incredible Firepower it's

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just incredible it's sort of what's old

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is new again if you look at the Battle

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lines in Ukraine it looks very similar

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to

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197 and if you look at what your analogy

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is a really interesting one agrarian

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versus Naval power

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I've heard in almost all the biographies

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I've written on US presidents whenever

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kind of quotequote gets real the

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first question they ask is where are

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carriers it's still really a battle of

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the Seas and delivering violence and

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Firepower uh via VIA you know uh blue

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ocean waters I want to put forward a

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thesis and I apologize I'm digressing a

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bit here but I'm curious to get your

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thoughts I went to UCLA and I had a lot

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of close friends who are Iranian there

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was a big influx into UCLA of Iranians

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After the revolution

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and I always thought the most American

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kids in my fraternity were

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Iranians they were hardworking really

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into Commerce which is a Ply way of

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saying they're capitalist and into money

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generous really into education just the

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most American kids that I thought at

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UCLA that I met were Iranians and I'm

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one of my mentors from me mogadam I've

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always thought I've always held out this

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hope that it feels to me like Iran and

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the US culturally we would be great

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allies did that when I go to Israel I

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see a version of America and I always

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thought if I went into Iran if Iranians

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were like the Iranians I know here and

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maybe that's self- selection bias do you

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think there's ever a chance that Iran

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and the us could become

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allies well I think you're absolutely

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right about the culture Iran is a is a

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very worldly it's you know it's a it's a

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trading culture it's been a trading

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culture for 5,000 more modern than many

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Arab Nations right with respect to how

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it treats women very there's a bazari

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culture you know when I've when you I

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talk to people who negotiate with the

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Iranians they say you know you always

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feel like you're in the bazaar they're

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always scanny they're always clever

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about it love to trade the experience

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you're describing I have an even more

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Vivid version of that which is you know

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when I used to go to Egypt and Iran when

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I was always struck by was here you'd go

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to Egypt where the government was

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resolutely pro-american and the people

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hated America and then you'd go to Iran

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where the government hated America and

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the people loved America when you went

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when I went to Iran and you on the

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streets of Teran they are incredibly

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pro-american now this has been changed a

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little bit by the last 10 years of

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really ruinous sanctions and

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particularly Trump's withdrawal from the

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Iran deal which really meant that

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Iranians you know the brunt of the

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effect has been felt by ordinary

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Iranians and they blame America for it

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but if you go back 10 years it was

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amazing how pro-american the people on

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the street were so I think you know what

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we have in Iran is a counterrevolution

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if you put it in the terms of my book a

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cultural reaction you know reactionary

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forces that have hijacked the country

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for 35 years now and it's a reminder

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that history doesn't always move in a

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you know in a positive direction for the

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Iranians it's been going backwards for a

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long time can that regime break the

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problem is um somebody once said about

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about leninism when these groups come to

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power by Revolution they know one thing

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how to prevent another Revolution

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because they you know they're experts at

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Revolution and this this regime is very

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good at that I think they do a mixture

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of

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repression patronage and Escape valves

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the repression we all know the patronage

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is they spend a lot of money

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particularly in the rural areas among

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conservative people among older people

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so they they do have a kind of

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constituency and the Escape vals is they

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have an election here or there you know

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they do things that in some way let off

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steam and by doing all three they have

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managed to stay in power despite you

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know frankly so many predictions that

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they would leave so I I wish it were not

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true but I think it's going to be very

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hard to dislodge this

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regime we'll be right

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back in our remaining time I want to

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talk about domestic um Affairs and I'm

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terrible at sports analogies but this

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doesn't that won't stop me I was with my

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father a couple weekends ago and we used

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to go to Rams games which were the

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football team in Los Angeles and we'd

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always lose to the Dallas Cowboys or the

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Minnesota Vikings every year in the

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playoffs and my dad would constantly say

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there's nothing like the Rams to snatch

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de feed from the jaws of Victory and I

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kept thinking that when I saw him I was

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thinking of how he used to say that to

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me all the time and I thought that kind

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of sums up perfectly how I feel about

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America right now we have no reason to

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lose we're we're just so incredibly

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strong and prosperous right now and yet

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it feels like like that's not going to

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stop us quite frankly from it

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all up so if someone from the White

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House called you and said I'm worried we

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about the snatch defeat from the jaws of

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Victory and distinct if you want to talk

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about the election but I'm not I think

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it's bigger than

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Trump what what do you think are the

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social policies or the economic policies

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or just the way we approach being

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American that can save us from ourselves

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save us from snatching defeat from the

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jaws of

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Victory so look I think Biden has been a

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good president he has done one thing

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that has been really important in

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America we have for the last 30 or 40

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years in America not had enough public

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investment America has been the story of

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America has been one of private

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affluence and public squalor and Biden

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with the infrastructure act with the IRA

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with the chips act all of that is an

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investment in America long-term

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investment in America and I think that

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that was much needed and a lot of it is

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going to areas which have been left

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behind you know I think one one

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calculation was 2third of the money is

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going to rural areas and two-thirds of

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the jobs being created don't require a

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college degree and that's that's really

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good and that's the right direction to

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go the thing that Biden is not I think

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understanding enough is it's not just

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about money it's about the sense that

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these people have that their world has

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gone away that their communities have

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disappeared their faith has has uh has

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crumbled you have to play in the

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cultural Arena you and and you have to

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play offense in the cultural Arena you

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can't be playing defense and I think on

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things like uh immigration on this whole

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woke uh stuff Biden has to get out there

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and he has to make clear that he's not

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with all you know all this stuff the two

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most successful left of center

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politicians in the last 30 years in in

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in the west were Bill Clinton and Tony

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Blair and they both tood that if you

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want to help people and you want to get

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your your agenda through and you want to

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get your ideas implemented you got to

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reassure people that you're not some

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crazy radical and it's all culture it's

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not economics so my favorite example of

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this is Bill Clinton comes out very

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powerfully in favor of school uniforms

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now the president of the United States

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has almost nothing to do with State

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education anyway it's a it's a state

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government issue and he has really

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nothing to do with what what what

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clothes people wear at Public Schools

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what he was doing was engaging in

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symbolic politics to tell all those

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people out there I'm not some crazy

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hippie radical you know I believe in

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what can be more Bourgeois what can be a

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more mainstream than school uniforms

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Blair would do similar kinds of things

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you know you've got to realize that

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people do get unsettled by all this

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change and they get culturally unsettled

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and you can't just you know you're not

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going to be able to bribe them you've

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got to engage at that cultural level

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Biden should make a speech against the

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woke agenda he should go out there and

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basically declare National Emergency on

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the border and say what you know we're

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not going to and let the courts

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challenge it that's not the point

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Clinton had another great line he'd say

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the American people don't always expect

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you to succeed but they want to catch

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you trying and Biden needs to be caught

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trying on some of these issues to show

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Americans where he is um I think if he

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did that it's a powerful combination

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you're never going to be wildly popular

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but if you look at some of the guys who

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managed to survive Justin Trudeau uh and

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macron they all do this they combine

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being kind of if you will tough on some

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of these cultural issues with economic

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opportunities for the poor yeah I'm

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reminded of inspired a memory of when

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Clinton I think he was somewhere in

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Michigan or Russ belt State and he said

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your jobs aren't coming back I'm not

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going to lie to you and I think he

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immediately got so much credit ability

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among moderates like well finally

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someone's going to be honest with us I

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think even the I think even the union

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bosses appreciated that what talk a

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little bit

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about what's happening on campuses or

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any thoughts you have about reform if

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any in higher

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education look I think American

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universities are amazing places let's

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not again forget the big story we we

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have the best universities in the world

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they do amazing stuff particularly in

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The Sciences but even other places we

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you know the fundamental Advantage we

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have over the rest of the world is other

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countries Singapore South Korea they

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teach people how to do well at tests we

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teach people how to think and problem

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solve that is a fundamentally different

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way of approaching education it's a

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deeply American way and we do it very

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well now I think two things have

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happened over the last 20 or 30 years

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one of them is that you have had a

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certain degree of the the you know the

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young population has been getting more

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leftwing for you know particularly on

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cultural issues and things like that and

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that's a real Trend that I don't pay too

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much attention to that in the sense that

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people forget in the early 1970s the

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Harvard Crimson was writing editorials

play44:14

in favor of Paul P it was writing

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editorials arguing that the North

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Vietnamese should win the Vietnam War

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because they were the forces of of

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progress and Liberation you know these

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are 1920 year olds you know they've

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often been radical they've often there

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were a lot of maest at Yale when I was

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there they're supposed to be pushing the

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limits right that's the idea right

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exactly what has changed and I think

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what makes it much more cancerous is

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this this building up of this um this

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diver diversity equity and inclusion

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apparatus and bureaucracy and I want to

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be clear about one thing it's not that

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all these people are bad many of them

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are very good people they're they they

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are right-minded they're trying to do

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the right thing it's a good example of

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incentives and institutions when you

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create these large bureaucracies they

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have a kind of self-perpetuating reason

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to exist and to and to grow and what

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that rests on is there are being

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problems those problems being

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highlighted those problems being

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exacerbated and one of the things I

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noticed on college campuses so I was at

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went and then I served on the board you

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know decades later between those two

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periods mid 1980s when I was at Yale and

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around you know 200 8 9 10 when I was

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when I was on the board um what had

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happened is you had this whole apparatus

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of segregation that had built up because

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you created you know African-American

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house Latin American house Hillel uh

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South Asian students African Americans

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just you created this huge apparatus of

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these these organizations and these

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administrative uh officers whose almost

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job it was to separate people reinforce

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that separation uh emphasize all the you

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know the problems the uh the the the you

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know um the the lack of uh you know the

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the kind of ways in which people felt

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discriminated and what that ended up

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being was it in sum total what you ended

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up doing was creating a more segregated

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more resentful more hostile campus than

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than was necessary uh because you're

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feeding these fires instead of saying

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we're a campus about integration you

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know what we really want to F is to see

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the commonality in all of you and I

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understand where you know as I say it

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might have been well motivated but what

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you have now created is a completely

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balkanized campus where you have these

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you know these groups that think of

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themselves as victims this bureaucracy

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that feeds that uh and every time they

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there's a problem they the demand is

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give us more money give us funding you

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know so it reinforces the segregated

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identities and I think this is a huge

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problem and it's fundamentally illiberal

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because we are not looking at human

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beings as human beings anymore we're

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looking at them based on ascriptive

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identities of race ethnicity and

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national origin which is fundamentally

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opposed to the liberal project which

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sees as Martin Luther King so

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beautifully put it judges people by the

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content of their character not the color

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of their skin Fred zakari is the host of

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n's Flagship International Affairs show

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fed sakario GPS as well as a weekly

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columnist for the Washington Post he is

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the author of four New York Times

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bestsellers including 10 lessons for a

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post-pandemic world and his latest age

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of revolutions progress and backlash

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from 1600 to the presid he joins us from

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his home in New York freed I always um

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you're you're you're one of the few

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reasons I turn on the television Premier

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League games and I like to watch you for

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whatever reason on the big screen in in

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our home I think you're doing fantastic

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work and and having a huge impact

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appreciate your time as they say in the

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talet from your lips to God's ears Scot

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there you go for thanks

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[Music]

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man

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Related Tags
Global RevolutionsEconomic GrowthTechnological AdvancementsCultural ShiftsGeopolitical TensionsIndustrial LegacyDigital EraIdentity PoliticsBacklash DynamicsHistorical Analysis