Piers Morgan vs Slavoj Zizek On Israel-Hamas, Putin And More

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Highlights

Called the most dangerous philosopher in the West, engaging in discussions ranging from geopolitics to psychoanalysis.

Criticizes the West's ambiguous support for Ukraine, advocating for a decisive stance.

Views Hamas as an armed resistance movement, but condemns acts of terror.

Discusses the failure of decolonization efforts, highlighting problems in Uganda and South Africa.

Argues that both the right and left are contributing to a culture of exclusion and division.

Describes himself as a moderately conservative communist, skeptical of democracy and freedom's current state.

Believes that global solidarity needs to be redefined and activated to address the crises of migration and environmental degradation.

Emphasizes the importance of not simplifying complex geopolitical situations, such as the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Criticizes cancel culture for undermining diversity and inclusion through exclusionary practices.

Discusses the potential dangers and ethical dilemmas of technologies like Neuralink in the context of human interaction and sexuality.

Shares a nuanced perspective on the movies 'Oppenheimer' and 'Barbie', analyzing their cultural implications.

Expresses concerns over Donald Trump's potential re-election and its implications for global politics.

Critiques the current state of left-wing politics in America, urging a reevaluation of its approach to populism and the working class.

Advocates for a return to moral and common decency in politics, highlighting the importance of engaging ordinary people.

Defends the symbolic role of monarchy in modern governance as a check against the reign of experts.

Transcripts

[Music]

he's often been called the most

dangerous philosopher in the west

locking horns with Dr Jordan Peterson

and captivating crowds that sell out

speeches very similar to the bestselling

books ban everything from geopolitics to

psychoanalysis and popular culture or

with a controversial communist bent at

the most Elementary level you are not

bullshitting you are an open mind what

is your view about where we are with

this war there is no opposition I agree

with you the West has to stop this

ambiguous game trying to support Ukraine

but not too much some people now claim

that Hamas is basically a armed

resistance movement in some sense it is

both Sid have to accept they are

condemned to live with one another there

if they don't do this they will just be

dying both the problem with cancel

culture is there precisely excluding

everyone who is

diverse joins

uncens great to have you and great to be

with you I'm really proud you know why

because although we probably don't share

the same political view I'll put it at

the most Elementary level you are not

bullshitting you don't follow neither

rightwing not left left wing Vogue dogma

and so on you are an open mind this is

more than ever important today well

thank you very much and in fact I was I

was doing a lot of research into you uh

slavo about your views about various

issues in the news and as I went down

the list I realized we pretty much agree

on almost everything going on and I

realized then that I must therefore be

the second most dangerous philosopher in

the

west I am not surprised by it because to

provoke you and our public now you know

how I Define myself quite seriously uh

moderately conservative communist don't

go into Panic by communist I simply mean

I think that the present Global

capitalist system is approaching some

kind of a crisis

environment migration and so on and so

on that's all a new practice of global

solidarity will have to be uh activated

But Here Comes the moderate conservative

but I'm extremely skeptical then to any

proposed measures that we have democracy

people say we need authentic democracy

sorry I'm here against uh Lincoln you

know Link's famous uh you can deceive

some people all the time all the people

sometimes but not all the people all the

time unfortunately I think most of the

time most of the people are deceived

second thing Freedom what do you mean by

Freedom let's take

decolonization yes I am for it but as a

leftist I am obsessed

by how things went wrong in many cases

of

decolonization take Uganda you know that

they vot voted a law a couple of months

ago which uh unanimously almost which

makes homosexuality punishable even with

death penalty and they justify this with

uh rejecting Western culture colonialism

or South Africa one of my most

depressive experiences I spoke recently

with a

very gentle old lady very high

positioned in in African nation Congress

and I asked her what's the real

situation in South Africa you know what

she told me Nightmare she told me more

and more among the poor black

majority the atmosphere which dominates

is Nostalgia for apide the standard of

living for the blacks was more or less

the same maybe even slightly higher as

now but there was precisely because it

was a police state more public order and

so on and so on these are the real

problem and I think the game that we

should reject is blame the right you

know oh it's all effects of uh of

colonization no it's not so simple the

next thing that makes me really

dangerous maybe hopefully I think is you

know maybe you know it what's my favor

philosophical joke you know Nils B

quantum physics and so on he had a house

outside Copenhagen and the friend

visited them and saw a horse shoe on the

entrance Door this is with us in Europe

a

superstitious uh object allegedly it

prevents evil spirits to enter the house

and the friend asked nil B listen do you

believe in this this is aren't

you a scientist you know what Bor

answers answered of course I don't

believe in it but I have it there

because I was told it works even if you

don't believe in it unfortunately that's

how all the Democracy legal system human

rights work today mostly we practice

them but we don't believe in them we

don't take them

seriously yeah I think you may listen I

don't think you're dangerous at all um

let me talk to you first about Ukraine

Russia um I had a a guy called John

mimer on recently who was is arguing to

me that Russia was provoked into this

war they shouldn't be blamed for it and

so on I have a very different view what

is your view about where we are with

this

war this conversation is turning very

bad because again there is no opposition

I agree with you but what may be a

surprise for you is that I agree with

you as a

leftist that is uh that is to say don't

people listen my got to what Russia

their official media Putin and so on

what they are saying some of my crazy

leftist friends even claim but

nonetheless Russia is anti Nat so it

must be good are they crazy look at whom

Russia is supporting in Western Europe

only the radical right- Wingers Le

alternative for Germany in Germany and

so on second thing you know what Putin

said on the day of the invasion 21st and

then 23rd of

February a year ago or two years ago

even he said something terrifying he

said the true name of Russia should be

Russia of Vladimir ilich Lenin so he

wants to take from ukrainians something

that only paradoxically I'm very

critical of lening uh uh the early bolik

gave them so this is clear for Putin he

is in no way a leftist my God he's a

dark conservative religious fanatic

that's why I to provoke people as you

know I think I said give even nuclear

arms to Ukraine as a well on that point

saying on that

point yeah I think it was a terrible

mistake for for Ukraine to be persuaded

to give up their nuclear capability

because it seemed to me that was just a

green light to Putin to then invade

them absolutely I mean uh uh uh and okay

it's true that at that point am I

correct or not I'm not sure it wasn't

yet Putin it was yelin right but they

should have taken this precaution yeah

because it's clear here I this agree

with mimer it's clear that it's not just

Ukraine it's clear that that it began

with grusia Georgia Crea mova and so on

no Russia is they openly say it it's in

an imperial

expansionist stage and I think the

longer we tolerate it the more horrible

will be the final uh confrontation yes

that's why incidentally I read as far as

I can their media you know I hope we

agree also here one of the most stupid

uh politically correct pacifist saying

is an enemy is somebody whose words you

did not listen no sorry I read Hitler M

comp and after reading that he was even

more my enemy so that's why I think we

should read what Horrors they are saying

uh uh Russian media they have a full

return to religious fundamentalism they

portray the war in Ukraine as the war of

Christian civilization against demoniac

Satanism and so on yeah I mean they are

no less than Arabs they are today the in

the worst sense fanatical religious

fundamentalists they have to be stopped

unconditionally the West has to stop

this ambiguous game of uh trying

to support Ukraine but not too much so

that we will not annoy Russia too much

and so that we will not hurt our

standard of living too much no we are in

an emergency State we

Europe I completely agree with you uh I

I cannot understand particularly can't

understand it looks that when will I

want KN where when will we disagree

let's go

on let's move to to Israel Palestine I

don't think we will here either because

you've taken a you've taken a view of

trying to see both sides of this and

that's made you unpopular with both

sides and I've done the same where I try

and look at it you know fairly and

understand the history but also

understand what happened on October the

7th and understand the questions over

proportionality of response and so on

what is your view of of where we are

with the Israel Hamas war and what's

happening in

Gaza first to clarify things even if

some people now claim that Hamas is

basically a a armed resistance movement

in some sense it is but nonetheless many

of its acts most of its acts especially

October the 7th attack where purely

clearly acts of Terror you know why I

didn't know people there in that area

attacked by Hamas but they knew people

who knew the people there and they were

shocked you know that that raving party

the these were the most pacifist people

in all of Israel the young people it was

almost an act meant to be an act of

solidarity with Gaza the kots Hamas

slaughtered was a Kuts welln for helping

even half illegally people in Gaza all

the time so here things are absolutely

clear at the same time I have big

problems with

this almost I would say Pudo religious

nationalist Twist by Netanyahu and

especially some guys in his government

who even use the terms Palestinians are

like Amal those in the Bible slaughtered

and so on and especially what's

problematic with me is West

Bank there a

slow colonization is happening now on

behalf of Israel I ad one thing the main

culprit

is yeah it shouldn't be happening the

main C is don't you think yeah I I just

don't I think what's happening on the

really surprise you yeah I I just want

to say sa I think that what's happening

on the West Bank uh is

actually that's the one thing everybody

should agree is completely wrong you

know you can argue about the

proportionality of Israel's attacks in

Gaza but nobody should be happy with

what the Israeli settlers are doing on

the West Bank it's completely

wrong and now I will tell you something

that will not Shock you you appear to me

a more reasonable being but what uh

shocks many of my friends you know who

is for me at this point the greatest

voice of reason there to act Secret

Service Israeli Chiefs especially did

you read the interview by ex

finb uh Chief uh uh

aan he said that the formula there is

give Palestinians a hope and that's the

only way long-term way to peace and he

even proposes a scenario you have marvan

baruti who is for 20 years in prison had

an aura of Mandela but he is now I know

people who spoke with him absolutely for

a peaceful solution uh and so on and so

on so for me the true horror is that

Hamas

and the Israeli

hardliners

are in a Tango Embrace strengthening

each other I think and I here I agree

with Yuval Harari when he speaks about

uh uh the struggle of the two Souls of

Israel this more open pacifist soul and

here I'm not a utopian I'm not not

saying Israel should disband secret

Services no I'm not crazy I'm just

saying both sides have to accept that as

Ireland put it they are condemned to

live with one another there if they

don't do this they will just be dying

both together there and it's incredible

how in this sensitive situation you say

things like this and at the same time

you I mean me now are attacked as

anti-semitic Hamas supporter and from

the other side in Al jazer there was a

whole campaign against me that I am just

a soft liberal Zionist and so on and so

on it's a very sad situation well we

live in a very strange world don't we

where everyone is very tribal it's

fueled by social media you have to take

a side you have to be implacably on one

side or another and you even if facts

change you can't change your opinion or

support for your tribe if you like and

what that means is that that Free Speech

becomes under more and more threat

because people dare not actually Express

their honestly held opinion that's why

you and I get attacked by people on both

sides of a lot of these debates um

because we we refuse to be put into a

box absolutely and I think those who are

are

especially suffering or are affected by

this is the

so-called let's call it liberal

moderate left with The Madness of uh

whism cancel culture and so on why what

for me the problem with cancel culture

it's evident for to me as a philosopher

they preach uh inclusion and diversity

but what are they doing they are

precisely

excluding everyone who is diverse who

doesn't follow their line and the

situation is extremely annoying yeah

because you even don't know the rules in

advance you know all of a sudden for

something you can be cancelled the the

rules the rules are not the rules are

not uh uh clear so uh you know what this

cancel culture reminds me of you know

this eternal joke everybody knows it

researcher comes to a lone tribe and ask

them are do you do you still have

cannibals there the answer they get is

no we just ate the last cannibal last

week you know that's what council

culture is doing it no we have no no no

no no male sism exclusionism whatever

here because we just excluded uh we just

excluded the last one that's the reality

that's the tragedy of councel culture I

agree in principle with their goals some

of not but generally but the way they

want to enforce their goals the very way

they do what they are doing undermines

what they are doing it's a tragedy and

as such they are giving uh

arguments energy to the new populist

right they fit together for me the new

populist right and this woke politically

correct councel culture left are simply

two sides of the same I completely agree

in fact I would I would go further and

say that they're basically both forms of

fascism and the irony about the woke

left is that if you ask them what's the

thing you hate most in the world they

would probably say fascism and yet the

way they behave in canceling people for

having opinions in trying to destroy

their lives in canceling history and

canceling everything in life that people

enjoy is that they're behaving exactly

like fascists would

behave here I would no I completely

disagree with you finally PR unle

finally I completely I no no no no I

agree with you I would just be careful

with the term fascism because if we

Define fascism in a broader sense not

anti-Semitism kill all the enemy but the

basic idea of fashist for me we want

modern technology modernization and so

on but we don't want the disruptive

effects of Freedom liberalism we want to

control it by some Central National

imposed ideology and strong party then

you know how far I'm here ready to go

take countries like Russia like India

like turkey and maybe China itself in

some sense this broad sense not exactly

Nazism they are all moving in this

direction of at least if not more soft

fascism modernization yes but bridled

controlled by a strong centralized State

and foundant is some

nationalist ideology but I would see I

would say you're not necessarily

disagreeing with me because I totally

understand that that is the the

definition of fascism but the ideology

of fascist is that you will behave the

way we tell you to behave and if you

don't we'll kill you either in reality

we'll literally kill you or in the case

of the woke left uh which Elon Musk

calls the the woke mind virus we will we

will kill off your ability to have an

opinion and will ruin your life for

having an opinion that is the same kind

of thinking of a fascist it's you will

conform to the way that I decide you

will lead your life or we will destroy

you I agree with you but I would just

add uh something that there is another

phenomenon in our Western liberal

countries which a phenomenon which

worries me even more in marginal media

and so on you still can say important

things but in some sense the

effect is cancelled like you can up to a

point tell the truth about ecology about

I don't know what but yeah yeah yeah we

all agree and then it goes on I know

this because I was years ago in

psychoanalysis diagnosed by obsessional

neurotic and I will tell you now a funny

detail what happened to me I was talking

during the session there were short

sessions all the time why because I

wanted to I didn't want even to give a

second to the analyst to ask me some

tough questions so the idea was talk

talk talk not so that you achieve

something but to make it sure that

nothing will change and I think that you

know a lot of today's tolerated

criticism works like this if you allow

me it's in my nature in my jeans I

cannot change it a wonderful I use it

often dirty joke not to dirty s for the

public from from I think even

pre-revolutionary you away times when

Russia was

yeah was uh uh occupied by tatars okay a

Russian couple farmer and his wife walk

on the street a Tatar comes on a horse

and says I will now rape your wife but

not only you have to watch it uh you

have to uh hold my testicles so that

when I'm raping her there will be no

dust on my testicles okay the T does it

right away and then the farmer start

starts to jump out of pleasure haha I

won the hor horrified wife says in what

sense I was rap He the farmer said but

hahaa no his balls are are are full of

dust you know like I didn't hold them a

lot of criticism especially leftist

criticism remains at this level in front

of instead of confronting the two the

true basic questions we remain at this

superf FAL

level the most fascinating Revelation

about you recently uh slavo was uh that

you wrote a piece for the new Statesman

explaining that Elon Musk had ruined

your sex life could you explain

that of course this is my typical

rhetorical exaggeration but I I can

exactly tell you what I meant I

developed this in a book that I wrote on

Danger on what Elon Musk calls neuralink

the idea of the immediate contact

between our brains first my thoughts can

be read by a computer computer is linked

to your brain so that's Elon musk's

dream we even will no longer need

language but isn't

sexuality something that needs language

all the flirting the erotic gains and so

on thrive in this Gap

between what you can say what you only

hint at and so on imagine what happens

in this Society where our brains are

directly linked I see somebody a woman a

man a day I don't care whom I

consider desirable we just look at each

other and if I'm lucky both of us in our

brain think okay let's do it and we do

it I claim this is no longer

sexuality fascinating um let me ask you

about the most

contentious debate in the world right

now following the Oscars which is

Oppenheimer versus Barbie I interviewed

verer Herzog recently who said that he

tried to watch Barbie he he got about

half half an hour into it and said he he

could he deduced that uh could it be

that the world of Barbie is sheer hell

would you agree with

that I agree with him you know but you

know in what sense uh it's sense in the

sense that what I moderately liked about

the movie was that it takes place among

Barbie and other dolls and so on and

it's nice to fantasize about it but in

itself this world is hell and we know it

but the question here for me is why then

do we need to dream about something of

which deeply in ourselves deep in

ourselves we are well aware that this is

uh hell about open and I same with you

good guy you it took you half an hour to

me it took 10 minutes I couldn't watch

it further about

Oppenheimer yeah yeah yeah you know what

I didn't like in the movie I liked all

these political implications and so on

although I'm not simply even on

Oppenheimer site I think that his idea

that the United States should not

further develop uh n uh nuclear weapons

because then Russia will is simply wrong

Russia would have done it in any way and

so on but uh I like the political aspect

what I didn't like is

thiso Oriental Hindu depth of you know

bhavat Gita all that stuff and let me

briefly explain to you why this got me a

couple of month ago in deep trouble in

India uh you know the first sexual act

uh uh Florence Hugh making CL with

Oppenheimer yes and uh she asked him or

she her I well to quote read Bhagavad

Gita okay IND thean exploded they said

story this is our sacred book how can

you spoil it reading putting it into

such a dirty context of illegitimate sex

you know what was my reply I agree with

you but in the opposite

sense you have a beautiful loving sexual

act and you spoil it by quoting one of

the dirtiest books of all the time you

don't believe me let me tell you a fact

do you know that bhavat Gita was a

favored book of Henry himler the author

of Holocaust really thief of ss you know

why yeah he thought in a in an ironic

sense ethically his problem was This Ss

officers and soldiers had to do horrible

thing killing Jewish women children and

so on how can they do this without

becoming bestial brutal

themselves and his reply was bhavat Gita

don't identify with your acts at act at

at a distance from

yourself so no wonder that uh some kind

of thiso Oriental thought is extremely

popular

among parts of the new Elite like don't

you know you are doing horrible things

but you say no I'm just acting this this

is not the real me and so on and so on

you see uh but that's my problem with

Oppenheimer less of that Oriental staff

of mysteries and so on and so on and

more about political background and so

on what fascinating what is your view of

Donald Trump and do you think he's going

to win back the White

House he can but uh again ah now you

will see why here I get hatred from both

sides on the one hand especially

considering the global situation I think

Trump's Victory would have meant that

United States will become one among the

other the so-called bricks countries and

their formula I'm opposed to Bricks

their formula is you have your way of

life have ours let's tolerate each other

we have seen what this means when

Taliban won in Afghanistan there was

immediate peace between Taliban the new

regime and China the deal was you

although you are Muslims allow ask

Chinese to do what we want with uur

Muslims we allow do you what you want to

do with women women's rights and so on

and so on so here I have a problem

and

so with Trump let me tell you a joke

which I constructed it's a paraphrase of

an O paraphrase of an old joke from

communism imagine that three big names

in today's politics Putin he speak the

boss of China and Trump are allowed

briefly to confront God and each of them

can ask God a question first Putin asks

tell me what what will be with my

beloved Russia in next years God says

looks bad not about Ukraine war but you

will be in a couple of years an economic

province of China basically economically

colonized by China uh Putin turns around

and starts to cry then uh she turns to

God and asks what about uh China will be

so will be so strong God says sorry I

also have bad news for you uh uh your

economic Miracle will stop you will

either have to go to war to China sorry

with

taian new militarization or you will

have to rely to Taiwan for economic then

Trump says oh wonderful America will

remain so what will happen in America if

I am elected president again you can

guess my answer God turns around and

starts to

cry what's my point here I am not

totally against uh Trump because you

know what you should never forget with

all my critique of trump that uh this

trumpian new populism didn't fall from

the Moon it is an outcome a result of

the failure of the standard welfare

state American left liberal Society

something went wrong there and I think

that that's the problem with Biden I

remember his

inauguration it was for me an utterly

disgusting spectacle was a simple

mistake let's return to the Glorious

American Dream welfare state pass so

that I think although I don't fully

agree with him the Moment of Truth there

at the inauguration was you remember

Bernie Sanders sitting alone he C he

caught the show you know Millions felt

something is wrong in this spectacle so

the lesson for so-called Democratic

modal left in the United States from me

is don't just hit at Trump ask yourself

what you were doing wrong so that we

have such a strong wave of populism

because although I disagree with Trump

his basic idea that new Mega

corporations are controlling not only

whatever remains of the working class

but also of let's call them naively

small new creative capitalists is in

some sense true this is why my leftist

friend with whom I don't always agree

but here I condition agree with him what

my leftist friend yanis vakis claims in

his new book techn fism these new Mega

corporations more and more resemble old

FAL

Masters controlling a whole domain of

our social life so you know the

situation is here very complex so

instead of just CR criticizing Trump

let's ask what did he perceive that the

standard liberal Democratic left is

ignoring this has been fascinating uh

slavo uh I was going to ask you at the

end whether you had any opinion about

the royal family given everybody else

does right

now uh I am not fascinated by them but I

can tell you something which may be a

shock for you this is my last text that

I published namely uh in defense of

hegel's theory of

monarchy Hegel the great German idealist

defended monarchy not as a king with

full executive power but a king as a

purely symbolic figure which just as

heel puts it signs his or her name dot

the ey this is important because without

such a figure on the top you get the

reign of experts which is the worst

thing that can happen it's the end of

democracy so I think that of course we

cannot return today to a old style

monarchy but it's important that on the

top of the state there is sorry for the

expression an idiot like we all Ordinary

People he stands for as this the Paradox

of a king for me a good Monarch is that

he is like one of us he stands there for

common sense not for some special

knowledge and so on and so on that's in

this sense I see crazy as it may sound a

potential positive role of monarchy

today it's not possible but there are

other options like lot lottery and so on

so I think

that the persistance of

monarchy signals a serious limitation of

our traditional representative democracy

and again let's not just dismiss it as a

remainder of some reactionary past let's

see what why does it persist what is not

no longer working as it TR in our

representative democracies once again

slavo I find myself nodding away uh so

people may call you the most dangerous

philosopher in the west uh but I think

we found an awful lot of common ground

so either I am equally dangerous or

actually you're a voice of common sense

in a sea of tribalistic Madness but you

know what I will tell you very important

what you said now because you know that

uh now I come to another point which

will bring us to this that's why I not

no don't know where he is now

politically but I have sympathies for

people like Bernie Sanders not I'm not

talking about politics now but about how

they

function is that he for me not in what

he says but in the way he acts a true

postmodern relativist he makes fun of

everything obscenities and so on and so

on but I think that Bernie Sanders

often almost I would say stand for

common decency and Moral Majority I

think that if a new Progressive left

wants to have any chance they should

stop to despise Ordinary People and uh

accept that the main focus of politics

should be how to not dup but convince

mobilized Ordinary People in appealing

to their best uh moral instincts and so

on and so on let's not be afraid of this

term Moral Majority slavo what an

absolute pleasure to interview you uh

what a fascinating conversation I think

people are going to love this and I

really appreciate you going un sensored

tonight let's hope so it was the

pleasure for me also thank

you