'Boots on the ground should not be be off the table' Ben Hodges interview | DW News

Summary

Retired U.S. Army General Ben Hodes discusses the war in Ukraine and tensions within NATO. He criticizes the lack of clearly defined strategic objectives by Western leaders, argues Ukraine can still win with more Western support, and warns that another Trump presidency could jeopardize NATO cohesion and embolden Putin. Hodes also alleges the recent Hamas attack in Israel was not a coincidence but rather an effort by Iran to help Russia by diverting attention and resources from Ukraine.

Takeaways

• 📝 Ben Hodes emphasizes the lack of strategic clarity from the West regarding their objectives in Ukraine, leading to conflicting statements and actions.
• 🛡️ Macron's stance on keeping military intervention in Ukraine as an option is praised for strategic ambiguity, contrasting with explicit refusals from other leaders.
• 💡 The inconsistency in European leadership and messages weakens the alliance, highlighting the need for clear U.S. objectives and coordination.
• 👍 Germany's mixed signals—increased military spending and hesitancy in troop deployment—pose a risk to its leadership role and effectiveness in the crisis.
• 🔥 The discussion on the necessity and potential effectiveness of sending troops to Ukraine underscores the importance of defining clear objectives.
• 🛠️ Putin's nuclear threats are viewed as a bullying tactic that the West should not be deterred by, with a call for the West to remain focused on their strategic goals.
• 🚨 Ukraine's potential for victory is linked to Western support and leadership, particularly through precision weapons and making Crimea untenable for Russian forces.
• 📚 Domestic politics in the U.S. could impact support for Ukraine, with bipartisan support being crucial for ongoing aid.
• 💰 Trump's potential policies on NATO and Ukraine are criticized as strategically illiterate and dangerous for both U.S. democracy and international relations.
• 🌍 The Middle East conflict, particularly Iran's alignment with Russia, is seen as a strategic maneuver that diverts attention and resources from Ukraine.

Q & A

What does General Hodes say is missing when it comes to the West's strategic approach to the war in Ukraine?

General Hodes says what is missing right now is strategic clarity by the United States, Germany, and the West on the objectives in Ukraine. There needs to be clearly defined strategic objectives rather than vague statements about supporting Ukraine.

Why does General Hodes criticize President Biden's earlier statement about not sending American troops to Ukraine?

General Hodes criticizes President Biden's statement about not sending American boots on the ground because he believes it was a mistake and a gift to the Kremlin, communicating what the U.S. would not do and limiting options.

What are the three capabilities General Hodes says Ukraine needs to overpower Russia?

The three key capabilities General Hodes says Ukraine needs are: 1) Long-range precision weapons to make Crimea untenable for Russian forces, 2) Precision weapons to neutralize Russia's advantage of numbers by knocking out HQs, artillery, logistics, etc., 3) Weapons with sufficient range to hit targets across Russian-occupied Ukraine like the Taurus cruise missile.

Why does General Hodes say European countries like Germany have no reason to be tired in supporting Ukraine?

General Hodes says European countries like Germany have zero reason to be tired because not one German soldier has even broken a fingernail. He says the real tiredness is from the failure of political leaders to clearly explain objectives and why the war matters.

What does General Hodes say Ukraine needs to do to fix problems with military manpower and rotation?

General Hodes says Ukraine's government has to get serious and make political decisions to fix problems with the military personnel system, recall reservists, institute universal conscription if needed. This will allow proper troop rotation so units don't get exhausted.

What threat does General Hodes say another Trump presidency could pose for NATO cohesion?

General Hodes says Trump encouraging Putin to take actions against NATO allies not spending enough on defense, signals to the Kremlin that NATO cohesion could unravel. This could dangerously undermine deterrence like during the Cold War.

Why does General Hodes believe the recent Hamas attack in Israel helped Russia?

General Hodes believes the Hamas attack diverted resources and ammunition from going to Ukraine to Israel. It also created massive political problems for President Biden related to U.S. support for Israel, disrupting and delaying the Ukraine aid bill.

What transactional deal does General Hodes worry Trump could make with Putin over Ukraine if re-elected?

General Hodes worries Trump could make a transactional deal promising Putin that Ukraine would never join NATO in exchange for Russian military withdrawal. Trump wants flexibility for deals rather than coordinating within NATO.

What evidence does General Hodes say contradicts Trump’s claim that Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if he were president?

General Hodes says there is zero evidence to support Trump's claim. Trump has not provided any logical argument of how Putin would have been deterred from invading Ukraine under his leadership.

How could improved U.S. strategic thinking help address security threats from the Russia-Iran alliance that General Hodes highlights?

General Hodes says the U.S. needs to recognize Russia and Iran are each other's top allies and think more strategically about countering this alliance. This could help avoid incidents like the convenient Hamas attack diverting focus from Russia's war.

Outlines

00:00

🤝 Introducing Guest Speaker General Hodes

The host welcomes retired US Army General Ben Hodes to the show and sets the stage for discussing conflicting signals from Europe regarding the Ukraine war. Topics include whether to send troops to Ukraine, Putin's nuclear threats, coordinating allies, and clarifying strategic objectives.

05:01

📈 Germany's Military Spending and Support for Ukraine

The host and General Hodes discuss Germany's increasing military budget over the last few years and positive steps like agreeing to send a brigade to support Ukraine. However, Germany's leader recently made concerning anti-troop comments and refused to provide advanced weapons to Ukraine.

10:02

😤 Ukraine Can Win the War with Western Weapons

General Hodes believes Ukraine can still win the war and eject Russia back to 1991 borders, but it requires American and German leadership and advanced weapons. He outlines specific capabilities Ukraine needs like long-range precision weapons to make Crimea untenable and neutralize Russia's manpower advantage.

15:06

👀 Domestic US Politics Affecting Ukraine Support

The host asks about prospects for Congress passing a new Ukraine aid bill, which General Hodes says depends on whether enough Republicans vote with Democrats to overcome obstruction. He criticizes how ugly American domestic politics are playing out on the world stage regarding Ukraine.

Keywords

💡Russia

Russia is mentioned multiple times in the context of the war in Ukraine and the Russian invasion. General Hodes discusses Russia's nuclear threats, relationship with the US under Trump, objectives in the war, and more. He notes that clearly defining objectives in the war is key, including ejecting Russia back to its 1991 borders.

💡Ukraine

Ukraine is central to the discussion, as the video focuses on the war in Ukraine and support for Ukraine. General Hodes talks about military aid for Ukraine, Ukraine's ability to win the war, the importance of Ukraine winning, and commitments needed from Ukraine like fixing personnel systems.

💡Objectives

General Hodes emphasizes the need for clear strategic objectives several times. He criticizes the lack of clarity around objectives in supporting Ukraine and says clearly defined objectives are needed before committing troops or aid to understand purpose and strategy.

💡Nuclear

Russia's nuclear threats are discussed as Putin threatened nuclear retaliation if troops are sent to Ukraine. General Hodes believes these threats are empty and meant to deter the West, saying the West shouldn't be easily rattled and should double down on objectives.

💡Precision weapons

General Hodes names precision weapons as one of the key capabilities Ukraine needs to overpower Russia. These allow targeting logistics, HQs, artillery to neutralize Russia's manpower advantage and make Crimea untenable.

💡Germany

Germany's role is mentioned several times. General Hodes praises increased military spending but notes confusing signaling recently. He says Germany should help guide Europe given its economic power and has the most to lose if Ukraine fails.

💡Trump

Donald Trump's past and potential future relationship with Russia and NATO is discussed. General Hodes worries Trump could sacrifice Ukraine through a transactional deal with Putin and damage NATO cohesion with comments welcoming Russian aggression.

💡Iran

Late in the discussion, General Hodes theorizes that the recent Hamas attack may have been coordinated with Russia/Iran to divert attention and resources from Ukraine in a disruptive move that helps Russia.

💡Congress

General Hodes discusses the battle in Congress over a Ukraine aid bill, which most Republicans support but is being held up by Speaker McCarthy over pressure from Trump factions. He calls it an 'ugly' display.

💡China

China is mentioned by General Hodes at the end when he notes the Ukraine conflict is also being closely watched by China in terms of implications for the US-led global order.

Highlights

There is a lack of strategic clarity from the West on objectives in Ukraine

Macron was right to say that the option of sending troops should be kept open

Germany's reluctance to provide aid is the most out of step with other allies

Increasing military spending shows Germany's commitment, but recent comments undermine unity

Before sending troops, clearly define the objective and purpose

Ignoring Putin's nuclear threats is the best response

Ukraine can win by ejecting Russia back to 1991 borders

Ukraine needs long range precision weapons to make Crimea untenable

The West has no reason to get tired supporting Ukraine

Another Trump presidency would be bad for US democracy and allies

Trump may sacrifice Ukraine in a transactional deal with Putin

The attack on Israel diverted resources from Ukraine

There is no evidence that Putin would not have invaded under Trump

Russia and Iran are each other's best allies

The attack on Israel creates problems for Biden's support of Israel and Ukraine aid

Transcripts

Ben Hodes is a retired United States

Army officer who served as Commanding

General of the US Army Europe he now

lives in Frankfurt we meet him in

Washington where he is attending a

security conference General hutches it's

always great to have you on DW and I

think it's especially great to have you

today because there are so many topics

we could uh uh learn from you and maybe

you can help us understand um we

observing conflicting signals from

Europe right now on the one hand there's

uh the French uh president Emanuel

macron uh who said um we should send

troops to Ukraine uh to assist in

defending against the Russian invasion

on the other hand there's the German

chancellor who says no and then the

German Chancellor said or implicated

that there might be already British uh

soldiers on the ground and of course the

Brits denied and then we have Vladimir

Putin who says if you send in troops you

will get a nuclear answer a lot to sort

out maybe I start with a simple question

is uh German Chancellor uh Olaf Schultz

right when he says there are already

British troops on the ground in Ukraine

well of course um I don't know that if

it is true it's not the place of the

German bonness counselor to announce it

if the British have not announced it um

you know what's what's missing right now

is strategic Clarity by the United

States by Germany by the West on on our

objective I what are we trying to

accomplish uh when we say well we're

with Ukraine for as long as it takes or

we don't want Ukraine to lose those are

not clear strategic objectives and so

you end up with these nonsensical

arguments about that you just described

I thought it was terrific that president

mcon said we should not take that off

the table he didn't say we're going to

send them he said we should not take the

option off the table because why would

you why would you communicate to your

adversary What You Won't Do um even if

you never intended to do it why would

why would you say that so um I thought

president mcon what he did was correct

uh my own president made a mistake back

before the beginning of the large scale

Invasion when he said no American boots

on the ground why would you say that

it's not it's not uh um that's just a

gift to the kremin communicating what

you want do right but obviously M didn't

talk to other European leaders before he

said that is this like strategically

motivated or is it just a mistake or

that's a great question and I don't I

don't know why he would have said

something like he could have said French

troops and without having to coordinate

but clearly if you're going to say the

EU or european troops something like

that that probably should have been

better coordinated with other countries

Europe is like really sending out all

these different signals how how much

does this weaken the alliance the United

States has got to be very very clear on

what its objective is uh its

expectations of everybody and then do

what the US traditionally has done which

is to make sure we're all uh coordinated

in our efforts to to do the necessary

work with allies to make sure that we're

in sync on the objectives and the way

ahead and we haven't done that I mean

other than this famous Ramstein contact

group that meets every month um you

don't get the feeling that the US

Administration is doing the necessary

work uh

diplomatically for us to remain United

now secretary John stoltenberg superb uh

Admiral Bower the chairman of the

military committee superb General cavoli

Supreme allly Commander superb but the

Nations do seem disjointed and I think

um to be candid unfortunately the German

bundus counselor seems the one that is

the most out of step with everybody else

it must be really painful for him to be

having to do things he's doing now

providing Aid to Ukraine building up the

bundes fair different from what he ever

imagined he would be doing when he was a

younger politician but it's essential I

mean Germany the most prosperous richest

country in Europe the massive uh

Industrial

capacity um has has got to help guide

otherwise if Ukraine fails we're we're

going to be in a terrible conflict with

Russia in Europe and Germany is going to

pay a massive price the thing that

always wanted to avoid is coming back

but we have to be fair with the German

Chancellor there was this Titan vender

and they really like increasing the

spending uh in the military uh budget

absolutely that's that's what's so

confusing is because two years ago it

was like you know San Venda 100 billion

euros um and then even the other day you

know he's out there breaking ground for

an ammunition Factory another thing I'm

sure he never imagined he would do these

are all good positive steps uh Germany

agreeing to a brigade brigata

lowan um by 2027 these are very powerful

strong signals

but then on the other hand here in just

the last few days he's

undone uh or damaged this sense of

Germany really leaning forward with the

uh um almost panicky statement like

we're not going to put troops on the

ground um and the absolute refusal to

provide Taurus um I mean very very

clearly no way we're going to do that um

which I think is unfortunate because

that would really be helpful to Ukraine

would you think it would make sense

sending troops into Ukraine not without

having clearly Define the objective I

mean what what is the purpose uh this is

a mistake we all make too many times is

to send troops send things send money

but for what end and that's the hardest

thing for our political leaders to do to

clearly Define the Strategic objective

what are you trying to accomplish and if

you have a clearly defined objective and

and you're sticking with that then you

can come up with policy that makes sense

we don't we don't have the clearly

defined objective yet so um if I was an

American Soldier or a German bondes fa

I'd like okay so what what is my purpose

here I'm not against going but what am I

supposed to accomplish but you say when

should keep this option absolutely on

the table of course make the Russians

worry about it give them problems to

worry about instead of reducing their

problems Vladimir Putin was very clear

he said if you send in troops I will

give you a nuclear answer how how

serious is this threat U

zero this is this is what Russia does um

because they see how

easily um rattled we are when they talk

about they might use a nuclear weapon I

mean we have been deterring ourself for

years just because they somebody says oh

we might move a nuclear weapon into

bellus which does nothing to improve the

nuke or increase the chances of it being

used but just by making that

announcement that becomes a topic for

days and days or the other day oh Russia

might be putting a nuclear weapon in

space okay everybody that's all they can

talk about and so the Kremlin sees how

easily we deter ourself

and um so when I try to think

practically all right what would they

do there are no positive outcomes for

Russia if they use a nuclear weapon zero

nothing there's nothing that they could

destroy um that would win the war for

them or make things better it'd be the

opposite you know President Biden said

you use a nuclear weapon catastrophic

consequences for Russia China has said

do not use a nuclear weapon and so I

think the Russians realize that their

nuclear weapons are most effective when

they don't actually use them they just

talk about them and it's amazing to me

that we continue to fall for

this uh bullying threat so you basically

say ignoring is the best

answer I would double down on what is

our objective say we're not going to be

deterred by this this uh these threats

um we we're on the right side here we

are protecting the UN Charter we are

protecting sovereignty you go down why

why Ukraine matters to all of us that

this is not some charity case over in

Eastern Europe this affects Europe's

security and prosperity which affects us

the Chinese obviously are watching so

number one make it very clear what our

objective is number two say we have

thousands of nuclear weapons so

don't don't come to me with your your

empty threat and then we make it clear

that our objective is for Ukraine to win

and we give them what they need to

win I would like to move to that

question exactly um so you're very well

connected uh around the world but also

with uh people in Ukraine the conflict

appears to be at a still stand do you

believe that you that Ukraine still can

win uh this war and how so I absolutely

believe that Ukraine can win and that

it's important that they win and win

means eject Russia back to the 1991

border uh of course for that to happen

uh it's going to take American and

German leadership and support for that

to happen um this this thing could could

have been in a much different place

months ago if we had committed to

helping them win uh instead of what

we're doing um what would they need

uh to overpower Russia all right well

there's probably three sort of different

capabilities come to mind immediately

and there is no one wonder weapon there

is no one thing that's a complete

GameChanger okay uh but obviously the

capabilities they need um are to make

Crimea untenable for the Russian forces

so that means long range Precision

weapons and there's different types that

could hit every every part of the Navy

base

air bases Logistics

headquarters uh in Crimea and there's

nowhere to hide there so we know where

everything is in

Crimea the ukrainians just need the

ability to hit that make it untenable

that's the most important piece of

ground of of Russian occupied Ukraine

number one number two the way you

neutralize Russia's

Mass U their advantage of numbers is

with precision

knockout headquarters knockout artillery

knockout Logistics if you do those then

these huge numbers of

untrained uh cannon fodder that they

bring much less effective so again that

means you need long range Precision

weapons and every square meter of

Russian occupied Ukraine is inside 300

kilm so that Taurus at tachs uh other

weapon systems like that would be very

effective how long can this war go on

before the West in the Western countries

get tired well of course I I'm glad you

asked that because we have zero reason

to get tired I mean not one American

Soldier or German bundes Soldier has

even broken a fingernail so I mean what

are we tired of um we should be tired of

the failure of our political leaders to

explain what what's the objective and

why this matters um the ukrainians of

course have reason to be tired but

everything that I see and hear from

ukrainians with whom I

speak they they they can't stop because

they know what happens in Ukrainian

Villages when the Russians show up

ukrainians do have to fix their

personnel system um they've got over 2

million women and men that are military

age but tens of thousands of them are

are in Germany Poland Romania Baltic

countries uh they're not attracted to

military service there are tens of

thousands that are in Ukraine that are

not in the military so um and the

average age of Ukrainian soldiers is

like over 40 it's incredible so this is

a political decision the government has

got to get serious uh otherwise they not

only do they risk all of their units

being ated

terribly and and soldiers becoming

exhausted because there's no rotation

but also I worry that uh some Nations

will begin to uh be less willing to

support Ukraine if ukrainians are not

even fully committed

themselves talking about governments I

think we have to uh turn our attention

briefly to the situation in Washington

you are well connected to lawmakers from

both sides from both political parties

do you think uh they will reach an

agreement uh on a new Ukraine Bill

members of Congress including the

majority of Republicans actually support

this so so now this is a real test uh

for speaker Johnson that he um is able

to withstand pressure from

Trump um or do enough Republicans decide

to vote with Democrats using one of the

parliamentary procedures that would

allow them to have an uh vote on the

floor so this is

unfortunately you know American domestic

politics is playing out in front of the

whole world it's ugly and uh totally

unnecessary and I think U it it not only

gives Russia an advantage for a period

of time but it also will cause our

allies to think what the hell is wrong

with the United States talking about

Trump I think we have to address this

briefly um he is threatening to withdraw

from NATO or at least drastically uh

reduce the US support if he would be

reelected how danger is this how sorry

how dangerous is this uh not only for

NATO but also for the US itself well of

course another Trump presidency would be

bad news for our

democracy uh it would be bad news for

how other nations view us as a uh a good

example of a liberal democratic country

um but but in Practical terms it's

dangerous when he encourages Vladimir

Putin to do quote whatever the hell he

wants to a NATO country that um is not

investing uh enough into their own

defense uh a remarkable degree of

strategic illiteracy when he says things

like that you know that's a signal to

the Kremlin that okay the cohesion of

the alliance which has always been the

glue the what made NATO so strong and

what successfully deterred the Soviet

Union for decades and now Russia Donald

Trump has an interesting relationship

with Vladimir

Putin do you think it's possible that he

would once in office sacrifice

Ukraine um I think given his

transactional

nature I believe it is possible I think

that uh you know when Trump says I can

solve this in 24 hours of course what he

talking about is that he tells Vladimir

Putin hey look um you pull out let get

an agreement and uh I'll make sure

Ukraine never gets into NATO for example

things like that or you can have Ukraine

but you're going to have to do something

else over here um I think that uh Mr

Trump does not care about

2% he he I don't think he wants to be

encumbered by an alliance where he has

to get agreement with 31 or 32 30 or 31

other nations soon to be

31 instead I think he sees himself like

an 18th century ruler him X and Putin

and they're the ones that kind of figure

it all out I think that's what he really

wants the 2% thing is just a uh a weapon

uh that he uses my last question is

Donald Trump repeatedly says um with him

in the White House Putin would not have

invaded Ukraine and there would be no

war in the Middle

East there's zero evidence uh to to

support that um in the Middle

East I think that we have got to think

more

strategically to recognize that Iran is

Russia's best Ally and Russia is Iran's

best Ally and I don't think that the

attack on October the 7th by Hamas was a

coincidence I think that this as part of

Iran taking advantage of an opportunity

doing something that helps Putin because

surely the Palestinians were not helped

the Russians were helped explain why the

attack helps or helped uh Russia well it

diverted uh attention and resources

immediately I mean literally ammunition

things that would have been going

Ukraine immediately were shifted to

Israel and it creates a massive uh

political problem for President Biden

also I mean you know as you know here at

home we've got challenges with people uh

unhappy with uh American support for

Israel this is a big problem um and and

now this is all held up the the Ukraine

Aid bill is tied to Israel to Taiwan and

the Border um so this disruptive effect

as well as literally a diversion of

resources away from Ukraine helps Russia

General Hotes thank you so much thank

you for the privilege

feel it's right me

sir