Thinking About Christ Will Shatter Your Conception of Time | Fr. Stephen De Young & Jonathan Pageau

Jonathan Pageau - Clips

7 Nov 202206:26

Summary

TLDRThe script delves into the theological concept of time and space as experienced by different beings, particularly in the context of Christianity. It discusses the iconography of Christ as the creator of the world, the perception of time by animals versus humans, and the unique consciousness of angelic beings. The conversation also touches on the eternal nature of God and Christ, beyond human concepts of time, and the historical points where divine truths entered human consciousness, such as the Incarnation and the fall of angels.

Takeaways

📜 The script discusses the iconography and theological interpretations of Jesus Christ as the creator of the world, highlighting historical and religious perspectives.
👤 It mentions Saint Maximus and his sayings, suggesting a symbolic representation of Christ during the crucifixion as the creator of the world.
🕊 The idea of Christ as the 'Son of Man' is presented, emphasizing the continuity of this image in religious iconography up to the 14th century.
💡 The script touches on the concept of time and consciousness, suggesting that different beings, including humans and animals, experience time differently.
🐶 An example is given about a dog adapting quickly to the loss of a leg, contrasting human experience and the concept of bodily awareness.
⏳ The script questions the application of human time perception to angelic beings and divine entities, noting the limitations of such projections.
👼 It brings up the debate about when angels fell, using it as an example of how time is perceived differently in heaven compared to earth.
📖 Reference is made to Father Dumitru Staniloae and his work on Orthodox dogmatics, discussing God's attributes as being beyond spatial and temporal categories.
🌐 The script explains the concept of omnipresence in Western theology, suggesting that God is everywhere and nowhere at the same time, beyond human understanding of space and time.
🛑 The discussion includes the Incarnation of Christ, questioning the traditional understanding of Christ's experience of time and his ascension into heaven.
🐑 The 'Lamb slain before the foundation of the world' is quoted, illustrating the eternal truth of Christ's sacrifice and its entry into human consciousness at specific points in history.

Q & A

What is the idea that Jesus Christ created the world as presented in the script?
-The script discusses the concept that in certain religious texts and iconography, it is depicted as if Jesus Christ, as the man, was the one who created the world, which is a continuation of the image of the Son of Man.
Why does Saint Maximus have 'crazy sayings' about Jesus Christ creating the world while on the cross?
-Saint Maximus' 'crazy sayings' reflect the symbolic and theological interpretations that can sometimes appear contradictory when trying to reconcile the divine and human natures of Christ.
What does the script suggest about the representation of God in Old Testament iconography?
-The script suggests that until the 14th century, God was often represented as Christ in Old Testament iconography, indicating a theological understanding where Christ and God are not distinctly separated in these depictions.
How does the script relate the perception of time to the understanding of divine beings?
-The script highlights that different beings, such as animals and humans, experience time differently, and this perception should not be projected onto divine beings like angels or God, whose consciousness and experience of time are fundamentally different.
What is the significance of the phrase 'the lamb slain before the foundation of the world' in the script?
-The phrase signifies the eternal truth of Christ's sacrifice, suggesting that it was true before it entered human consciousness and time, reflecting the eternal nature of divine events.
How does the script address the issue of time in relation to the Incarnation of Christ?
-The script suggests that Christ's Incarnation is an event that is eternally true and entered into human consciousness at a specific point in time, but it does not imply that Christ as God experiences time in the same way humans do.
What is the script's view on the omnipresence of God?
-The script explains that God's omnipresence is not about being in all places at the same time in a physical sense, but rather that spatial and temporal categories do not apply to God, who is described as being both everywhere and nowhere.
How does the script discuss the difference between human and animal consciousness in relation to time?
-The script uses the example of a dog adapting to the loss of a leg to illustrate how animals may have a different kind of consciousness and bodily awareness that allows them to adapt to changes more quickly than humans, who have a more complex experience of time.
What is the script's stance on the Calvinist argument against Luther on the Eucharist?
-The script mentions the Calvinist argument that Christ's body cannot be present in the Eucharist because it is in heaven, highlighting a misunderstanding of the divine nature of Christ that transcends physical limitations of time and space.
How does the script interpret the idea of Christ ascending into heaven from the beginning?
-The script suggests that Christ's ascension into heaven is not a temporal event but an eternal one, implying that Christ has always been with God, beyond the constraints of time.

Outlines

00:00

😇 Theological Interpretations of Christ's Role in Creation

This paragraph delves into theological perspectives on the role of Jesus Christ in the creation of the world. It discusses how some texts, such as those by Saint Maximus, present seemingly contradictory ideas, such as Christ creating the world while on the cross. The speaker emphasizes the importance of iconography in preserving these concepts, especially up to the 14th century, where Christ is often depicted as the creator in Old Testament scenes. The paragraph also touches on the limitations of human understanding of time and space when applied to divine beings, suggesting that what is seen in religious texts might not align with our linear perception of time. The discussion includes the idea that Christ's actions, such as the Incarnation and Ascension, are eternally true and exist beyond human temporal experience, challenging traditional Western theological concepts of omnipresence and the application of spatial and temporal categories to God.

05:02

🕊 The Eternal Truth of Christ's Actions and Their Human Consciousness Entry Points

The second paragraph continues the theological exploration, focusing on the eternal nature of Christ's actions and how they intersect with human consciousness and historical events. It suggests that events like the fall of angels or Christ's Incarnation are not temporally bound but have specific points of entry into human awareness. The speaker uses the metaphor of the 'lamb slain before the foundation of the world' to illustrate the eternal truth of Christ's sacrifice. The paragraph concludes with a reflection on the nature of time and space as human constructs that do not limit divine beings, emphasizing the eternal and omnipresent nature of God beyond our comprehension.

Mindmap

Keywords

💡Christ

Christ refers to Jesus Christ, who is central to the Christian faith as the Son of God and the Messiah. In the video's context, Christ is discussed in relation to the creation of the world and the Incarnation, where he took on human form. The script mentions that historically in iconography, Christ is often depicted as the one creating the world, which is a theological interpretation rather than a literal depiction of the pre-incarnate Logos.

💡Incarnation

Incarnation is a Christian doctrine that describes the belief that God became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. The video discusses the idea that Christ's human nature was taken on without change or alteration, emphasizing the divine nature of Christ and how it is perceived in religious art and theology. It is also mentioned in the context of the Eucharist debate between Calvinists and Lutherans.

💡Saint Maximus

Saint Maximus the Confessor is a significant figure in Eastern Orthodox theology, known for his writings on Christology and cosmology. The script refers to 'crazy sayings' by Saint Maximus, which likely pertain to his complex and metaphorical theological expressions, including the idea of Christ creating the world while on the cross, symbolizing the eternal and omnipresent nature of Christ.

💡Iconography

Iconography in a religious context refers to the visual representations, especially in paintings and mosaics, used in worship. The script discusses how iconography has preserved the image of Christ creating the world, which is a theological interpretation rather than a historical account, reflecting the deep symbolic meanings within the faith.

💡Omnipresence

Omnipresence is the attribute of being present everywhere at the same time. In the video, it is used to describe God's nature, emphasizing that God is not limited by spatial categories. The concept is contrasted with human understanding of time and space, suggesting that God exists beyond these constraints.

💡Eternal

Eternal refers to something that is everlasting or outside the limitations of time. The video uses this term to describe God's timeless nature, as opposed to the temporal experiences of created beings. It is also used to discuss the eternal truth of Christ's sacrifice, which is said to have occurred 'before the foundation of the world.'

💡Consciousness

Consciousness in the video is discussed in relation to different beings' experiences of time and space. It is mentioned that animals, such as a dog adapting to the loss of a leg, have a different kind of consciousness and bodily awareness compared to humans. This concept is extended to discuss how angelic beings and God experience time and space differently from humans.

💡Angelic beings

Angelic beings are spiritual entities in various religious traditions, often depicted as messengers or agents of God. The script discusses the fall of certain angelic beings and how their actions are perceived within human consciousness. It also touches on the debate about when angels fell, suggesting that their experience of time is different from human understanding.

💡Supra-essential

Supra-essential is a term used in Orthodox theology to describe attributes of God that transcend the created order and human understanding. The video mentions Father Dumitru Staniloae's explanation of God's attributes as supra-essential, meaning that spatial and temporal categories do not apply to God, which is a key concept in understanding God's nature beyond human comprehension.

💡Eucharist

The Eucharist is a Christian sacrament that involves the consumption of bread and wine, symbolizing the body and blood of Christ. The script refers to a historical debate between Calvinists and Lutherans regarding the presence of Christ's body in the Eucharist, highlighting differing theological interpretations of Christ's physical and spiritual presence.

💡Temporal categories

Temporal categories refer to concepts related to time, such as past, present, and future. The video discusses how these categories do not apply to God, emphasizing the divine transcendence beyond time. It is used to illustrate the difference between human experience and the eternal nature of God.

Highlights

The concept that Jesus Christ, as the CR, created the world is depicted in some texts and iconography.

Saint Maximus' writings contain paradoxical sayings about Christ's role in creation.

Iconography up to the 14th century often represents God as Christ in the Old Testament.

The representation of the creation of man attributes the act to Jesus Christ, not the pre-incarnate logos.

The idea of Jesus Christ being at the side of God the Father is a central theme in the discussion.

Time perception varies among different creatures, and this affects how we understand divine actions.

Animals adapt to physical changes differently than humans, reflecting a different consciousness and time experience.

The discussion of Angels and their actions, such as the fall, is complicated by our limited understanding of their time experience.

Heavenly beings like Angels do not experience time in the same way humans do, challenging our conventional understanding.

Applying human concepts of time and space to divine beings is a projection of our limited understanding.

Father Dumitru Staniloae's 'Orthodox Dogmatics' discusses God's supra-essential attributes beyond spatial and temporal categories.

The concept of omnipresence in Western theology is misunderstood; God is everywhere and nowhere in a supra-essential sense.

Christ's Incarnation is presumed to involve a human experience of time, which may not be accurate.

Christ's ascension into heaven is viewed as an eternal act, beyond human concepts of time.

The Eucharist debate between Calvinists and Lutherans touches on the nature of Christ's physical presence.

Christ's body in heaven is not limited by time or space, reflecting a divine perspective on physicality.

Christ's actions, such as the Incarnation, are eternally true and enter human consciousness at specific points in history.

The lamb slain before the foundation of the world represents the eternal truth of Christ's sacrifice entering human experience.