David Harvey: The Persistence of Neoliberalism Despite its Loss of Legitimacy (1/2)

Summary

In this discussion, Greg Wilpert interviews David Harvey at the 2019 Left Forum in Brooklyn. They delve into the paradox of neoliberalism's waning popularity yet persistent institutional presence. Harvey argues that neoliberalism remains active, entrenched in global institutions and mindsets. He points out the emerging alliance between right-wing authoritarianism and neoliberalism as a concerning trend. Harvey also discusses how the left may have inadvertently adopted neoliberal principles, exemplified by corporate feminism. He emphasizes the need for a genuine alternative to both neoliberalism and its authoritarian counterpart, suggesting the left must awaken to this opportunity.

Takeaways

• 🌐 Neoliberalism's loss of legitimacy as an ideology is acknowledged, yet its institutionalized forms persist, such as the World Bank, WTO, EU, NAFTA, and TPP.
• 🧠 There's a widespread internalization of neoliberal values, leading to a situation where even critics often propose alternatives within a neoliberal framework.
• 💼 The rise of corporate feminism, which aligns with neoliberal principles of individual entrepreneurship, is critiqued as a form of feminism that overlooks broader social issues.
• 🌱 Neoliberalism's influence is so pervasive that it has affected the left's discourse, including some elements of anarchism that resonate with neoliberal ideas of individual liberty.
• 🔄 The distinction between the logic of capital, represented by tech giants like Google and Apple, and the logic of territory, represented by conservative neoliberalism, is highlighted.
• 🔄 The left is challenged to present a real alternative to both the logic of capital and the conservative form of neoliberalism.
• 📉 Neoliberal policies have led to increased social inequality, contradicting the promise of wealth for all through entrepreneurialism.
• 🏦 The ideology of neoliberalism blames individuals for their poverty, deflecting from systemic issues.
• 🛑 The rise of authoritarianism and neoconservatism is seen as a reaction to maintain social order against the perceived threat of the anti-neoliberal movement.
• ✊ The left has opportunities to counter the current alliance of neoliberalism and right-wing populism but has yet to fully capitalize on this moment.

Q & A

What is the contradiction between the loss of legitimacy of neoliberalism and its persistence in institutionalized forms?

The contradiction lies in the fact that while neoliberalism has lost its legitimacy as an ideology, it continues to persist in its institutionalized forms through structures like the World Bank, WTO, European Union, and NAFTA, making it difficult for nations to deviate from it even if a progressive government comes into power.

How does David Harvey view the current state of neoliberalism?

David Harvey sees neoliberalism as very active and not merely a 'zombie form'. He believes it has been instantiated within many institutions and has become a mindset where even those opposing it often look at alternatives through a neoliberal lens.

What does Harvey mean by saying we have all become neoliberals without knowing it?

Harvey suggests that the neoliberal mindset has become so ingrained in our thinking that even when we object to certain neoliberal activities, we still consider alternatives in a way that is consistent with neoliberal principles.

How has neoliberalism been incorporated into the left, according to Harvey?

Harvey points out that neoliberalism has been incorporated into the left through the adoption of entrepreneurialism and individualism, exemplified by corporate feminism which aligns with neoliberal values.

What is the difference between anti-neoliberal politics and anti-capitalist projects according to Harvey?

Harvey distinguishes between anti-neoliberal politics, which opposes a specific form of capitalism, and anti-capitalist projects, which aim to go beyond capitalism altogether.

How does Harvey describe the relationship between neoliberalism and the current rise of right-wing authoritarianism?

Harvey describes an alliance between right-wing authoritarianism and neoliberalism as troubling and dangerous, suggesting that this combination is being used to maintain social order and perpetuate neoliberalism.

What does Harvey think about the role of the left in the current political landscape?

Harvey believes the left has not yet woken up to the possibility of mounting a counter-attack against the alliance of neoliberalism and authoritarianism, and is currently stuck in terms of presenting a real alternative.

How does Harvey explain the increasing social inequality under neoliberalism?

Harvey explains that neoliberalism, driven by competition and the equalization of the rate of profit, inherently leads to greater social inequality, as the rich grow richer and the poor become relatively poorer.

What does Harvey think is the role of the state in perpetuating neoliberalism?

Harvey suggests that the state, particularly through authoritarian measures and neoconservatism, plays a role in perpetuating neoliberalism by disciplining populations and maintaining social order.

How does Harvey view the impact of neoliberalism on the idea of personal responsibility?

Harvey criticizes neoliberalism for promoting the idea that if you're poor, it's your fault for not investing in your own cultural capital, effectively blaming the victim.

What historical events does Harvey mention as examples of resistance against neoliberalism?

Harvey mentions the anti-globalization movement, such as the protests in Seattle, and the Occupy Wall Street movement as examples of resistance against neoliberalism.

Outlines

00:00

🌐 Neoliberalism's Institutionalized Persistence

In this segment, Greg Wilpert interviews David Harvey at the 2019 Left Forum in Brooklyn. They discuss the apparent contradiction between the loss of legitimacy of neoliberalism as an ideology and its continued persistence in institutional forms. Harvey argues that neoliberalism is not a 'zombie' form but remains very active within institutions such as the World Bank, WTO, EU, and NAFTA. He suggests that there's a mindset where people have unknowingly adopted neoliberal principles, even when they oppose certain neoliberal activities. Harvey also points out the paradox where despite the criticism of figures like Clinton and Blair for their neoliberal policies, the ideology has seeped deeper into society. He highlights the alliance between right-wing authoritarianism and neoliberalism as a troubling and dangerous development.

05:01

🚀 The Neoliberal Influence on the Left

David Harvey delves into how neoliberalism has influenced the left, particularly in the last decade. He discusses Michel Foucault's analysis of neoliberalism and its ingrained nature in everyday habits, such as viewing oneself as an entrepreneurial enterprise. Harvey uses the example of corporate feminism, which aligns with neoliberal values of self-entrepreneurialism, to illustrate how neoliberalism has been internalized even within critical movements like feminism. He contrasts this with the need for an anti-capitalist, anti-neoliberal feminism. Harvey also differentiates between anti-neoliberal politics and anti-capitalist projects, questioning whether it's possible to reform capitalism ethically or if a move beyond capitalism is necessary. He notes the left's tolerance for neoliberal practices and the influence of the '68 generation's pursuit of individual liberty, which was co-opted into a neoliberal framework that downplayed social justice.

10:03

🌉 The Dichotomy of Neoliberalism and Authoritarianism

The conversation turns to the dichotomy between neoliberalism and conservatism, with Harvey drawing a parallel to his earlier work on the New Imperialism. He discusses the logic of capital versus the logic of territory, suggesting an alliance between neoliberalism and authoritarianism to maintain social order. Harvey critiques the neoliberal narrative that blames individuals for their poverty, arguing that this ideology deflects from systemic issues. He notes a shift towards state authoritarianism and neoconservatism to suppress dissent against neoliberal policies. Harvey suggests that the left has an opportunity to counter this authoritarian shift but has not yet fully recognized or capitalized on this moment.

Keywords

💡neoliberalism

Neoliberalism is an economic and political ideology that emphasizes free-market capitalism, deregulation, and the reduction of government intervention in the economy. In the video, it is discussed as having lost legitimacy as an ideology yet persists in institutionalized forms, such as the World Bank and the World Trade Organization. The contradiction lies in its continued dominance despite growing criticism.

💡institutionalized

Institutionalized refers to the process by which practices, ideas, or beliefs become established as part of an organization or society. In the context of the video, neoliberalism is described as being institutionalized within various global organizations, making it difficult to dismantle despite a perceived decline in its ideological support.

💡legitimacy

Legitimacy in the video refers to the general acceptance or recognition of an idea, system, or authority as being right or justified. The discussion points out that neoliberalism's legitimacy is being questioned, yet its institutionalized structures continue to exert influence.

💡authoritarianism

Authoritarianism is a form of government characterized by strong central authority and limited political freedoms. The video discusses an emerging alliance between right-wing authoritarianism and neoliberalism, which is seen as troubling and dangerous, suggesting a shift towards more control and less freedom.

💡corporatism

Corporatism, as touched upon in the video, is an economic system that emphasizes the interests and control of corporations. It is related to neoliberalism through the promotion of corporate interests and is exemplified by the rise of 'corporate feminism,' which aligns with the entrepreneurial spirit of neoliberalism.

💡entrepreneurialism

Entrepreneurialism is the practice or spirit of organizing and operating a business with the aim of making a profit. In the video, it is mentioned as a key aspect of neoliberal ideology, where individuals are encouraged to see themselves as entrepreneurs, even within their personal lives.

💡anarchism

Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates for the absence of government and hierarchy. The video suggests that some aspects of the anarchist tradition, particularly the emphasis on individual liberty, have been co-opted by neoliberalism, creating a complex relationship between the two ideologies.

💡social inequality

Social inequality refers to the unequal distribution of resources, opportunities, and privileges among different groups in society. The video argues that neoliberal policies have exacerbated social inequality, as they naturally favor those who are already wealthy and disadvantage the poor.

💡cultural capital

Cultural capital refers to the cultural assets one possesses, such as education and social skills, which can be leveraged for social or economic gain. In the video, it is mentioned that neoliberalism blames individuals for their poverty by suggesting they haven't invested enough in their cultural capital.

💡right-wing populism

Right-wing populism is a political approach that seeks to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by the establishment. The video discusses how right-wing populism has emerged as a means to maintain social order and perpetuate neoliberalism through authoritarian measures.

💡counter-attack

Counter-attack in the video refers to the potential for the left to challenge and oppose the prevailing neoliberal order. It suggests that the left has an opportunity to present an alternative to both neoliberalism and its authoritarian counterpart, but they have yet to fully capitalize on this moment.

Highlights

Greg Wilpert interviews David Harvey at the 2019 Left Forum in Brooklyn.

Discussion on the contradiction of neoliberalism's loss of legitimacy as an ideology yet persistence in institutional forms.

Harvey suggests that neoliberalism is active and ingrained within many institutions like the WTO and EU.

The idea that we have all become neoliberals without knowing it.

Harvey points out the paradox of Trump's deregulation being consistent with a neoliberal project.

The tax bill under Trump被视为典型的新自由主义文件，有利于债券持有人。

The emergence of an alliance between right-wing authoritarianism and neoliberalism.

Harvey discusses how the left may have incorporated some key ideas of neoliberalism.

The influence of Michel Foucault's analysis of neoliberalism on everyday habits.

The concept of individuals as enterprises of their own and its relation to corporate feminism.

The distinction between anti-neoliberal politics and anti-capitalist projects.

The potential for an ethical or social democratic form of capitalism.

Harvey's view on the left's tolerance for neoliberal practices due to its incorporation into leftist discourse.

The challenge to neoliberalism's legitimacy due to increased social inequality.

Neoliberalism's tendency to blame the victim for their poverty.

The rise of authoritarianism as a response to the failure of neoliberal reforms.

The potential for the left to mount a counter-attack against the neoliberal order.

Harvey's call for the left to wake up to the current moment of possibility.

Transcripts

it's the real news network

and I'm Greg wilpert joining you from

New York City where I'm at the 2019 left

forum which is actually taking place in

Brooklyn this year and I'm joined by

David Harvey distinguished professor of

anthropology at the Graduate Center of

the City University of New York thanks

for much David for joining us today

so I want to I want to start with the

question of neoliberalism because that's

an issue that has been a lot on people's

minds here at the left forum it seems to

me and one of the issues regarding

neoliberalism it seems to be the strange

contradiction between on the one hand

that everybody is saying and I think the

kind of the progressive candidates on

the Democratic Party in the United

States are kind of bearing this out the

loss of legitimacy of neoliberalism at

this point at least as an ideology as a

mode of thinking but on the other hand

and this is kind of this this

contradiction is the persistence of

neoliberalism in its institutionalized

form that is we have all kinds of

structures in place from the World Bank

to the World Trade Organization the

European Union the new and revamped and

North American Free Trade Agreement the

trans-pacific partnership is all kinds

of different institutions in place that

basically institutionalized

neoliberalism and so my question is how

can we get beyond this contradiction in

the sense that yeah what good is a do if

neoliberalism has been vanquished on the

level of ideas but it continues on kind

of as some has said perhaps a nizam be

like form without any real life but as a

nation and as individual nations it's

almost too difficult to do anything

about it even if a progressive

government comes into office so what do

you think well I don't think it's a

zombie form I think it's very active and

for some of the reasons you mentioned

it's become instantiated within many of

the institutions and you mentioned

we have Global's thing with the WTO

which is a neoliberal construct to which

everybody is supposed to comply you have

a European Union with my strict record

and Lisbon Accords which are completely

kind of neoliberal in their orientation

even further than that I think we have a

mindset in which in a curious kind of

way we have all become neoliberals

without knowing it and even when we kind

of object to some of the more egregious

activities which are going on we often

look at alternatives in a very

neoliberal kind of way and I think yeah

one of the questions I wonder wanna ask

around here of my colleagues is what

degree is the Left become neoliberal

last well in everybody's critical of

Clinton and and Blair and so on for

neoliberal izing Democratic Party and

the Labour Party's but I think it's gone

much deeper than that so it's not gone

and I would point out that if one other

one of the themes of neoliberalism

mister deregulate Trump was deregulated

had a rate which is absolutely

phenomenal so that is very very

consistent with a neoliberal project and

a deepening of the neoliberal project as

opposed to it's sort of rolling it

rolling it back the tax bill he gave out

was a classic neoliberal document which

was really a bondholders charter and I

think that actually in many day-to-day

aspects neoliberalism is is alive and

active and I think that the problem now

however is as you mentioned its

legitimacy and I think what's happening

is there's a curious Alliance occurring

between right-wing authoritarianism and

neoliberalism which is very very

troubling and

I think that is a very dangerous sign I

want to return to that point but before

I do I want to touch on something that

you said just before that which is about

how the left might have incorporated

some key ideas of neoliberalism and this

is of course something that has only

been discovered recently I would say one

that recently in the last 10 years

neoliberalism has been around I guess

since the night early 1970s but on the

last in the last 10 years there have

been more and more thinkers who panned

and I think partly this might be a

result of Michel Foucault's analysis of

neoliberalism talking about how it

becomes ingrained in our everyday habits

and the thing that he points to is these

ideas about how we become enterprises of

our own of an individual as a single

individual as an enterprise and I'm

wondering is that related to what you're

thinking in terms of the new

liberalization of the left I mean give

me some make that a little bit more

concrete what do you mean by that good

book come out by Cynthia I wrote so the

teaching back to Sharia and Nancy Fraser

the feminism for the 99% and one of the

things they do is to point out that as a

form of feminism which latched on to

neoliberalism precisely because it was

had this philosophy of

entrepreneurialism in the self and so

women could say okay I'm doing

entrepreneurialism is my self and as an

entrepreneur I can ascend in the

corporate world and so you get a kind of

corporate feminism which in many ways is

represented by Hillary Clinton which

explains why she didn't do so well

amongst amongst many women because that

corporate feminism which is consistent

with neoliberalism has become quite

significant in the feminist movement and

so these authors go against that and say

we have to have an anti-capitalist

feminism which is anti neoliberal and

anti-capitalist and I think is a big

difference for me by the way between an

anti neoliberal

politics an anti-capitalist product

project because neoliberalism is a

particular form of capitalism and the

big question is can you get rid of it

and construct an ethical form of

capitalism or a social democratic form

of capitalism or do we really need to go

beyond capitalism altogether but I don't

think the left particularly when you

look at some of the other issues and the

overlap there is in the left with some

aspects of an anarchist tradition and

the anarchist tradition is not entirely

sort of opposed to some of the

neoliberal ideas about liberty and

freedom of the individual and the like

so you you'll find I many aspects of the

left these days is sort of Kerik

characterized by whatever called a non

ideological cultural anarchism

and to some degree that is a little bit

what comes out of the neoliberal ethic

when the neoliberal ethic was first

being proposed it seems to me that it

was very much being proposed to the

generation of 68 and saying to that

generation look you want individual

liberty and freedom okay we'll give it

to you we'll give it to you and we'll

give it to you in this neoliberal form

which is a very political economic form

and you have to forget other issues like

social justice and the like so it's it's

seeped its way into the discourse is of

much of the left and I think that this

is this creates a sort of tolerance for

some neoliberal practices if but though

never ideas would exist on the left now

returning also to this issue now of the

alliance between neo liberalism and

conservatism in a way I'm wondering if

there's a parallel that might be made in

the sense that a to to something that

you wrote actually along

ago when you wrote about the New

Imperialism and what I'm thinking of

specifically is about I think you made

the distinction between the logic of

capital versus the logic of territory I

think it was was the alternative and the

this neoliberal alliance with

conservatives and it follows kind of a

logic of territory in some sense versus

you also have among the elites or among

the ruling class if you will of a kind

of a logic of capital and a kind of this

neoliberal non conservative

neoliberalism and that and that's

represented by the big tech companies

for example Google and Apple and so on

and Facebook on the one hand and on the

other hand we've got the kind of

trumpian neoliberalism that is

authoritarian and and of course now the

the left forces seem to be stuck somehow

in terms of possibly facing the choice

between one of those two are presenting

an alternative and I'm just wondering if

if what that so to speak that other

logic might be in terms of what would it

be oriented towards and how would it be

able to present a real alternative to

this the logic of of capital versus

logic of territory the neoliberal versus

the neoliberalism if you will and the

conservative neoliberalism how can it

kind of can can this alternative kind of

get beyond this this dichotomy well I

take it from this perspectives that when

I read Marx particularly Volume one over

now of capital what I see is a system

which systematically has the rich

growing richer and the poor getting

relatively poorer in other words a free

market economy driven by competition in

which there is an equalization of the

rate of profit that kind of economy will

produce automatically greater and

greater levels of social inequality and

of social well-being and of course the

neoliberal era all the data show

that is exactly what has happened so you

kind of go okay I understand

theoretically why this is happening it's

because of this this this mechanism

because that's what this mechanism does

and I see the data and then but that

then I think leads to the challenge to

the legitimacy of neoliberalism because

the idea behind it is to say to

everybody do entrepreneurial work in

yourself and then you'll become rich and

all the rest of it but it turns out

that's extremely difficult to do and for

the mass of the population it turns out

to be impossible so they look at this

situation and say this system is not

working for me

but then the neoliberal ethic kicks in

about entrepreneurialism the self and

says well if you're poor it's because

you didn't invest in your own cultural

capital it's your fault that you're poor

so neoliberalism has a very clever way

of turning things around and blaming the

victim and we see that saw that in the

foreclosures of the housing and all this

kind of stuff many people who were

foreclosed upon didn't blame the system

what they blamed was themselves so

actually what what neoliberalism does as

an ideology is to start to do that so

when somebody kind of says look the

system's not working for me the system

turns around says oh that's because you

didn't work on your education you didn't

do right it's your fault all this kind

of stuff so it it's a very neat way now

when you get to the mid 1990s or beyond

that I would say sort of around 2000

particularly after the Clinton years

when Clinton came in promising all kinds

of benefits and gave us and after and

all these neoliberal reforms and at that

point I think people kind of said you

know this is not really working for me

and what's more there's something going

on here which is which is not right so

you start to see in the 2000s this kind

of alliance between the neo cons and the

neoconservatives in the authoritarian

state because the only way in which

social order could be actually

kept was went by actually starting to

discipline populations because after all

the first revolt against the neoliberal

order which was global as opposed to

particular there are lots in Latin

America as I think you know and but the

global one was Seattle which was the

anti which is the anti-globalization

movement and then all of the picketing

of the IMF and g20 is meetings and all

these kinds of things general all of

that kind of story and at that point I

think the ruling class has started to

say well this could is is gonna get out

of hand we need a government structure

that's gonna sit on these people and do

it really really hard

so when Occupy Wall Street came along

which was a fairly small and fairly

innocent kind of movement actually Wall

Street got paranoid and basically

summoned the New York mayor at the time

who was the Wall Street character

Bloomberg to say squash these people and

and so then at this point the

perpetuation of a neoliberal order

starts to become more and more

guaranteed by state authoritarianism and

neoconservative ISM which now has

morphed a little bit into this kind of

right-wing populism so in a sense the

neoliberal order is being perpetuated by

this authoritarian shift and I think

again that should give the left a good

possibility to mount a counter-attack

and I think they are in a position to

remount a counter attack in certain

parts of the world but right now I don't

think the left has woken up to that this

moment of possibility

you