Will Reeves: Earn and Play For Free Bitcoin with Fold, Building a Company in a Bear Market

Summary

In this episode of 'Coin Stories', Natalie Burnell interviews Will Reeves, CEO of Fold, discussing his journey from a small-town upbringing in the wine industry to building a Bitcoin rewards debit card. They explore the importance of Bitcoin as an on-ramp for new users, the challenges of working with legacy financial systems, and the optimism Bitcoin brings in a bear market.

Takeaways

• 🎙️ The podcast 'Coin Stories' focuses on interviews with leaders in Bitcoin, finance, politics, and philosophy, aiming to educate and entertain without providing financial advice.
• 📈 The host emphasizes the importance of doing one's own research before making investment decisions, acknowledging varying risk tolerances among individuals.
• 🤝 The show is sponsored, and the host is selective about partnerships, indicating a commitment to quality and alignment with the show's values.
• 🪙 The first sponsor highlighted is Swan, a Bitcoin-only company that promotes saving and self-custody of Bitcoin, offering educational resources and financial services.
• 💡 Swan's mission is to educate future Bitcoiners and offers services like IRA tax loss harvesting and private client services, encouraging a daily deposit method similar to dollar-cost averaging.
• 👋 The guest, Will Reeves, CEO of Fold, discusses his background and upbringing in the wine industry, which contrasts with his current role in the tech and Bitcoin space.
• 🍷 Reeves' experiences in the wine industry, including witnessing its corporatization, influenced his understanding of economic dynamics and the value of low time preference.
• 🌱 The conversation touches on the importance of proof of work, the comparison of Bitcoin's growth with traditional industries, and the need for a stable and predictable monetary system.
• 💼 Reeves shares his journey from journalism to politics to tech startups, highlighting a shift from observation to creation and a search for meaningful work.
• 🛒 Fold's business model is based on rewarding everyday consumers with Bitcoin for their purchases, positioning itself as an accessible on-ramp to Bitcoin ownership.
• 🌐 Fold operates globally and has managed to secure partnerships with traditional financial institutions like Visa, demonstrating the growing acceptance of Bitcoin in the mainstream market.

Q & A

What is the main focus of the 'Coin Stories' podcast?

The 'Coin Stories' podcast focuses on featuring leading voices in Bitcoin, financial markets, investing, political structures, philosophy, and more. It aims to educate and entertain, but does not provide financial advice.

Why did the host choose to partner with Swan Bitcoin?

The host partnered with Swan Bitcoin because it is a Bitcoin-only company focused on helping people save for their future and self-custody their Bitcoin, rather than trade it. Swan's mission aligns with educating future bitcoiners and offering services like IRA and tax-loss harvesting.

What is Fold and how does it relate to Bitcoin?

Fold is a company that offers a Bitcoin rewards debit card and a shopping app. It allows users to earn Bitcoin on everyday purchases, providing an easy on-ramp to Bitcoin for people who are new to cryptocurrency.

What was Will Reeves' upbringing like, and how did it influence his perspective?

Will Reeves grew up in Glen Ellen, Napa, in Sonoma, Northern California, in a family that worked in a winery. His experiences in a small town with close-knit culture and witnessing the economic dynamics of the wine industry influenced his understanding of low time preference and the importance of aligning with one's values.

How did the wine industry's changes impact the local community and Reeves' views on business?

The influx of corporate conglomerates buying family wineries led to a shift in the local community, with a decrease in local high school population and an increase in second homes. This change influenced Reeves' views on the importance of sustainable, family-owned businesses and the negative impacts of corporate takeovers.

What was the initial concept behind Fold and how did it evolve?

The initial concept behind Fold was a gift card exchange where users could sell unwanted gift cards for Bitcoin. It evolved into a rewards program and a debit card that allows users to earn Bitcoin on everyday purchases, aiming to onboard the masses to Bitcoin.

How does Fold differentiate itself from other Bitcoin on-ramps?

Fold differentiates itself by focusing on consumers and rewards programs rather than traders and investors. It provides an easy on-ramp to Bitcoin through everyday purchases and does not require users to go through KYC or set up a wallet.

What is the significance of Fold's partnership with Visa?

The partnership with Visa is significant as it allows Fold to offer a Bitcoin rewards debit card that operates on Visa's network. This partnership demonstrates that traditional financial institutions can align with and benefit from Bitcoin-focused companies.

How has Fold managed to grow and succeed in a bear market for Bitcoin?

Fold has managed to grow in a bear market by continuing to build value and demonstrating its reliability and alignment with user and partner incentives. It has also focused on expanding globally and securing strong partnerships in the traditional financial industry.

What are some of the challenges and opportunities that Reeves sees in the current bear market?

Reeves sees the current bear market as an opportunity to demonstrate Bitcoin's stability and value, especially in contrast to the economic instability experienced elsewhere. The challenge lies in maintaining growth and credibility during a time when Bitcoin's reputation may be less bright.

What is Reeves' view on the role of optimism and building a family in relation to Bitcoin?

Reeves views optimism and building a family as inherently optimistic actions that align with the ethos of Bitcoin. He believes that fostering optimism, whether through Bitcoin, family, or community, can create a positive environment that contrasts with the broader pessimistic outlook prevalent in society.

Outlines

00:00

🎙️ Introduction to Coin Stories Podcast

The host introduces the 'Coin Stories' podcast, which features leading voices in Bitcoin, financial markets, investing, political structures, philosophy, and more. The host encourages viewers to subscribe, like the video, and turn on notifications for new content. They clarify that the podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not provide financial advice. The host also mentions their sponsors and introduces the first sponsor, Swan, a Bitcoin-focused company that helps people save and self-custody their Bitcoin. Swan's mission is to educate future bitcoiners and offer services like retirement planning and tax loss harvesting.

05:01

🌱 Will Reeves' Origin Story and Background

Will Reeves, CEO of Fold, shares his origin story, growing up in Glen Ellen and Napa in Northern California. He talks about his family's deep roots in the wine industry and his early jobs in vineyards. Reeves describes the small-town culture and the annual influx of migrant workers during the grape harvest. He reflects on the economic dynamics of the wine industry, noting how small family wineries often struggle with high costs and leverage, leading to consolidation by corporate entities. This background provides a foundation for understanding the principles of low time preference and the importance of proof of work, which he later relates to Bitcoin.

10:03

🍷 The Impact of Corporate Takeovers on the Wine Industry

Will Reeves discusses the transformation of the wine industry, particularly in Sonoma, where he grew up. He observes how small family wineries are being replaced by corporate conglomerates, leading to a loss of local culture and community. Reeves highlights the challenges faced by family wineries, including the high costs and long time horizons associated with biodynamic farming. He contrasts this with the corporate approach, which often prioritizes economies of scale and cost-effectiveness over traditional farming practices. This shift has resulted in a decline in quality and a loss of local identity in the wine industry.

15:04

🌐 Global Trends in Vineyard Ownership and the Wine Industry

The conversation turns to global trends in vineyard ownership, with examples from Italy and Argentina. Reeves notes the influx of foreign investors, particularly Chinese companies, buying up historic family wineries. He reflects on the impact of this consolidation on the quality and authenticity of wine production. Reeves also discusses the challenges faced by local communities as corporate interests often prioritize profit over local traditions and quality. The discussion underscores the broader economic forces at play, which are reminiscent of the food industry, where a few large corporations control a majority of brands.

20:04

🚀 From Journalism to Politics to Startups: Reeves' Career Journey

Will Reeves shares his career journey, starting with his aspirations to become a journalist and his work with migrant workers. He then transitioned into politics, working on Senate campaigns in San Francisco, but quickly became disillusioned with the fundraising aspect and the power dynamics within the political sphere. Reeves eventually found his passion in the startup world, where he could create and build things. He discusses his experiences working at Google and other tech companies, as well as starting his own ventures. This journey led him to Bitcoin and the realization that he could combine his passion for building with his belief in Bitcoin.

25:06

🔑 The Genesis of Fold and Its Mission

Will Reeves explains the inception of Fold, starting with a side project of exchanging gift cards for Bitcoin. He saw the potential to use Bitcoin as a rewards mechanism for everyday purchases, rather than just as a trading asset. Reeves recognized the opportunity to tap into the vast market of consumers who participate in rewards programs, particularly women and young people. He envisioned Fold as a way to introduce these demographics to Bitcoin through a familiar and accessible platform. The goal was to create an on-ramp for the masses to start earning and learning about Bitcoin through their everyday spending.

30:07

💳 The Fold Bitcoin Rewards Debit Card and Its Appeal

The host and Will Reeves discuss the Fold Bitcoin rewards debit card, which allows users to earn Bitcoin on their everyday purchases. Reeves highlights the appeal of earning actual Bitcoin rather than traditional rewards points, which can suffer from inflation. The Fold card offers a fun and engaging experience, with features like spinning a wheel for additional rewards. The host shares her enthusiasm for the card and its ease of use, emphasizing how it can help people dip their toes into Bitcoin without the need for complex wallet setups.

35:08

🤝 Partnering with Legacy Payment Systems

Will Reeves discusses the challenges and strategies of partnering with traditional payment systems like Visa for Fold's Bitcoin rewards debit card. He emphasizes the importance of meeting people where they are, using familiar tools like debit cards to introduce them to Bitcoin. Reeves explains how Fold had to prove the value of Bitcoin to merchants and traditional financial institutions, demonstrating that Bitcoin users are a motivated and loyal customer base. He also mentions the recent expansion of Fold's rewards program globally, despite the bear market, showcasing the company's resilience and growth.

40:09

🌳 Building in a Bear Market: Opportunities and Challenges

Will Reeves reflects on the experience of building Fold during a bear market, highlighting the opportunities it presents for value creation. He contrasts this with the frenzied growth of bull markets, where it's harder to lay a solid foundation. Reeves discusses how bear markets allow companies like Fold to demonstrate their credibility and reliability, attracting loyal customers and partners. He also touches on the broader economic context, noting how current economic instability underscores the need for Bitcoin's stability and sound monetary policy.

45:09

👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 The Importance of Optimism and Building for the Future

In the final segment, Will Reeves emphasizes the importance of optimism in the face of a pessimistic world. He draws parallels between the stability and predictability of Bitcoin and the act of building a family, both of which represent a belief in the future. Reeves encourages the Bitcoin community to support open-source projects and educators, as well as to engage in optimistic behaviors like starting families and building communities. He concludes by inviting feedback and suggestions for Fold and expressing gratitude for the Bitcoin community.

Keywords

💡Bitcoin

Bitcoin is a decentralized digital currency that operates without a central bank or single administrator. It is the primary focus of the video, as the host discusses its potential for financial empowerment and its role in the economy. The script mentions Bitcoin in various contexts, such as a tool for remittance, a store of value during economic instability, and as a reward mechanism through the fold app.

💡Financial markets

Financial markets encompass the various mechanisms, institutions, and processes through which financial assets are exchanged. The video touches on the volatility and unpredictability of financial markets, particularly in comparison to the stability offered by Bitcoin, as a point of discussion for the host and guests.

💡Investing

Investing involves allocating resources with the expectation of generating an income or profit. The script discusses investing in Bitcoin and other financial instruments, emphasizing the importance of doing one's own research and being aware of risk tolerance before making investment decisions.

💡Political structures

Political structures refer to the systems and organizations that define how a society is governed. The video briefly mentions the influence of political structures on economic systems and the potential for Bitcoin to offer an alternative to traditional financial systems.

💡Philosophy

Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental questions about existence, knowledge, values, reason, and ethics. The script alludes to philosophical discussions around Bitcoin, such as its implications for individual freedom and economic philosophy.

💡Sponsors

Sponsors are individuals or organizations that provide financial support to an event, activity, or in this case, a podcast. The script mentions sponsors as a way to support the production of the show, highlighting the relationship between the host and the companies she chooses to partner with.

💡Educational purposes

Educational purposes refer to the intent to inform or instruct. The host clarifies that the podcast is for educational purposes, encouraging listeners to learn about Bitcoin and financial topics, but also reminding them to do their own research before investing.

💡Risk tolerance

Risk tolerance is an individual's willingness to take risks with an investment. The script advises listeners to be aware of their risk tolerance when considering investments, emphasizing personal responsibility in financial decision-making.

💡Self-custody

Self-custody in the context of cryptocurrencies refers to an individual maintaining control over their private keys, thereby having full control over their assets. The script mentions self-custody as a key feature of the Swan platform, indicating a preference for empowering individuals with control over their Bitcoin.

💡DeFi (Decentralized Finance)

DeFi refers to financial services that are built on blockchain technology and operate without traditional financial intermediaries. While not explicitly mentioned in the script, the concept is implied in discussions about Bitcoin and financial autonomy, as DeFi platforms offer alternative financial services outside of traditional banking systems.

💡Rewards program

A rewards program is a marketing strategy that rewards customers for their loyalty, often through points or cashback. The script discusses the fold app's rewards program, which allows users to earn Bitcoin through their everyday purchases, highlighting the innovative approach to Bitcoin adoption and use.

Highlights

Introduction of 'Coin Stories' podcast featuring leading voices in Bitcoin, finance, and philosophy.

Emphasis on the podcast's educational and entertainment purpose and disclaimer about financial advice.

Sponsorship acknowledgment and introduction of Swan Bitcoin as a partner focused on Bitcoin savings and education.

Discussion on the mission to educate future Bitcoiners and retirement planning with Bitcoin.

Interview with Will Reeves, CEO of Fold, about making Bitcoin accessible and its integration with daily life.

Reeves' personal origin story from a small town in Northern California with deep ties to the wine industry.

Insights into the socio-economic dynamics of the wine industry and its parallels with Bitcoin's financial philosophy.

Reeves' transition from journalism to politics and then to tech startups, highlighting his journey to Bitcoin.

The concept of Bitcoin as a tool for remittance and its use during Reeves' time in Argentina during hyperinflation.

The founding story of Fold and its mission to bring Bitcoin to the masses through rewards and everyday purchases.

Fold's strategy to leverage existing consumer behaviors and traditional financial rails to promote Bitcoin adoption.

The importance of building during a bear market in the Bitcoin cycle and Fold's approach to growth and partnerships.

Fold's global expansion announcement during a bear market and its implications for the Bitcoin industry.

Reflections on the current economic climate and how Bitcoin provides stability and an optimistic outlook.

Discussion on the importance of optimism in the face of global challenges and Bitcoin's role as an 'anti-nihilism' tool.

Encouragement for the Bitcoin community to support open-source projects and educators for long-term growth.

Final thoughts on the significance of community, feedback, and the future of Bitcoin as shared by Will Reeves.

Transcripts

hi everyone thanks so much for checking

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to swannbitcoin.com Natalie Burnell

welcome back to coin stories I'm so

excited to have with me today will

Reeves he's the CEO of fold and if you

watch my show you know that fold is one

of my main Partners I'm super grateful

because it's one of the best ways to get

people into Bitcoin for the first time

learning about it and earning it I have

an alarm so I can spend my spin my wheel

and not forget and I'm excited to hear

how you built the company thanks so much

for joining me will

you're very good at that Natalie um I am

absolutely happy to be here it's been a

long time coming I think and uh yeah

excited to chat okay so let's let's

start with your origin story because

that's one of the reasons why people

tune into my show is to hear the the

backstories of all the great bitcoiners

so where are you from and tell me a

little bit about your upbringing

I uh come from a place along very close

to the center of tech but and culturally

very far away I come from I was born in

uh Glen Ellen and Napa in Sonoma and

Northern California

and uh to a family that met at a winery

and uh worked at a winery together all

their lives and uh really it was in that

small town where you know have very

close-knit friends and really my first

jobs was a seller rat

um you know pruning Vines digging

ditches really whatever and uh it all

seems like a far cry from where I am

today in technology but uh it certainly

was you know what rooted me what gives

me a sense of place in the world

wait I want to hear more about that

traveled a little bit in that area I

used to live in Sacramento so it was

close by to go to you know Napa Sonoma

Healdsburg but what's it like growing up

because I can only imagine it's it's a

lot of families with Vineyards and

they've been in the family for

Generations I mean what what was your

upbringing there like it's Sonoma was an

interesting place because you know it's

proxates an hour from San Francisco but

uh it is you know when I grew up I

believe the town was a couple thousand

people and it was really made up of

people that worked and ran the wineries

and people that worked at them and with

this really interesting thing that would

happen every year during Harvest where

you'd get an influx of thousands of

people migrant workers coming through

who would actually do the Dirty Work and

hard work of of harvesting the grapes

and they would stay for a couple months

and then move on and there was this

interesting cycle and so the town had a

really

um uh

very close-knit culture but people were

extremely stratified like you said you

had people who owned the Estates and

Wineries and then you know you'd be

playing on the soccer team or baseball

team with their kids and then right next

to you would be kids of those that were

actually working on the on the wineries

picking the grapes you know building and

all these things that brought us all

together but really allowed you to live

a life very much in proximity to you

know all the sides that we see in

society so it was a really great kind of

small town a microcosm for you know what

the rest of the world is yeah microcosm

is a good word because you're right if I

think about you know someone who might

grow up in that area

wine making sounds like a very lucrative

business you know but you don't think

about the fact that it is probably an

even more diverse Community than some of

the areas that I've lived in in big big

cities so what's maybe something that

would surprise people about that

industry or I mean how how involved were

you were you were you ever you know

mixing wines or stomping on grapes oh

yes I I did it all when you're there you

just kind of Pop around to whatever job

is available and so you know I've really

done it all from pruning from uh in the

production wine tasting uh really

everything and your friends are making

wine you know so so cool the the

it's an interesting place because

um uh you're you're able to get into it

like everyone's born into this right

you're just kind of moving on moving

through whatever path you have and uh

when I was young the town was a couple

thousand people uh when I when I lasts

around 18 that was you know 10 plus

thousand people it had grown so fast and

the makeup of the entire town grew it

went from you know small family wineries

to now corporate conglomerates coming in

and buying all wineries because what you

don't know is that people think people

think wineries are very lucrative and

huge businesses but really at the end of

the day it's an agricultural uh Endeavor

and you know when it's a family doing it

you're taking out massive loans and

leverage very similar to what you know

Family Farms maybe in the midwest would

have done and what where this kind of

World Views kind of start to mix is that

creates a lot when you have small

entities taking on a bunch of Leverage

to sustain a lifestyle to do what they

really want to do to build a craft that

you know you plant grapes and you're not

reaping Those Grapes to be able to you

know make wine for almost for years

sometimes three to five years and so

it's extremely low time preference thing

but it requires huge upfront investment

belief but it also creates in a world

where you know there's access to a lot

of easy money and when hard times come

families are put in a really tight spot

and so you saw over kind of my specific

time in Sonoma where these Family Farms

every single year every crisis

especially 08 crisis were just bought up

by Massive conglomerates world you know

producers and now the majority of wine

making in that area is all corporate you

know corporate and so it's it it changed

right in front of my eyes really wow you

know I wanted to ask you about this it

sounds like there should almost be a

chapter of safe's next book called Fiat

wine because it sounds like it's a lot

like the you know the food industry

where you you go to the grocery store

you think you have a lot of choice and

options but actually all of those Brands

supposedly that you see are owned by

like eight companies total and there's

been this consolidation of capital

because of our money being broken

um so that's really interesting because

I I guess I didn't think about it in in

the wine making industry but did that

inform maybe your views or plant a seed

so does speak where you might appreciate

Bitcoin as you came to see you know

behind the scenes how this industry

worked

I think that what it planted was very

fundamental con concepts of proof of

work of low time preference of putting

something that you truly believe in

behind your passion to then uh support

you and your family through generations

you know the winery that I really grew

up working on was a Family Winery that

before them was Winery a family Wineries

and just kind of it was a a passed down

type of thing and

um they farmed in a very specific way

what's called biodynamic farming and

there was there's no way a corporation

would come in and say I'm going to start

a biodynamic farm because number one it

is cost way too much money it produces a

lot less grapes uh most of a lot of the

land that you would normally use to

produce the grapes you're allocating

towards

um Gardens and things to attract certain

pollinators and and help you with pest

prevention so it's just a very from a

you know a corporate standpoint of let's

churn this out economies of scale it's a

very bad bad way to farm from their

perspective it's just totally different

than factory farming but this is one of

the wineries that uh was turned over was

bought by a corporation why because they

wanted to have the mantle of an idea of

a biodynamic family farm that was able

to kind of be a brand that would sit on

top of all their others and give it kind

of a Halo of of this you know organic

biodynamic family yet all those Concepts

were being essentially taken out from it

which is very similar to stuff that safe

would talk about there of you know

things traditional ways of being done

that kind of uh because from a cost

perspective and things starts to get

removed although the the these symbols

and the artifacts remain there and so it

creates a really strange wait is is this

wait the family doesn't run this or it's

not biodynamic they're you know so it's

it it was uh definitely informative

about understanding two things about

Bitcoin both the

um aspect that nothing comes for free

money should not be the production of

money should not be free it also should

be not dependent on you know a small

group of people's decisions on how

that's done we know just like growing

grapes you follow patterns of nature

that are not things that you can change

it's something that you have to follow

and everyone has the same rules so I'd

say from that perspective there is that

and then there's also just the trauma of

seeing your town which is one of the

most fertile beautiful places to grow up

best culture ever to now becoming what

is essentially a husk of its former self

most people are there are having second

homes the local high school

um I believe will have 20 percent of the

student population that it did when I

was there so it's just the idea of

families and everything is just being

evacuated because of the kind of

economic dynamics that that it's that it

that are you know prevailing now

that is so that makes me really sad you

know I I actually not a lot of people

know this but I actually lived and

worked in Italy for a couple of years

and I worked at a television station in

oh this was a long time ago now but we

did a special a series on The Vineyards

of Tuscany and I was like is this my job

this is pretty awesome so all the all

the vineyard owners came and they showed

off their wines

um but what was most fascinating that I

didn't realize I would learn during that

process is that so many of the

of these beautiful wineries across

Tuscany which is known for some of the

rarest and best quality red wines in the

world they were being bought up by

Foreign investors I mean Chinese

companies were coming in and buying what

was once in an Italian family for

centuries and you know I didn't

understand back then right but now I

think about that experience and I think

wow it's happening all over the world

you know the the capital is

concentrating in the hands of a few

people they get to expand to different

Industries and and create these you know

conglomerates and and in my opinion the

quality goes down ultimately at the end

of the day and that's there's something

really sad about that I mean you know

what was once belonging to you know

generations of one Italian family some

someone comes in who may or may not

actually be as invested especially

locally in producing value and jobs and

it's really sad that it seems to be

happening everywhere yeah you know so

the point of you know not only quality

comes down but but you know people you

know I grew up with Vineyards right

behind me and it was in my Vineyard but

when I was family owned you know that

the family is living there too how they

would treat their Vines what they would

treat them with would be something that

they were subject to and I would be

subject to now as that disappears that

line between hey let's it's good to grow

biodynamically because I'm living and

eating here versus now hey someone you

know on the East Coast who now owns this

may make a totally different decision

that would have a different impact and

so you know it's it it's it's been it's

sad it took me a while to you know

especially the winery that my parents

met at that turned over of my friends

all that you know most of my friends

growing up stopped going into the wine

industry they went into growing cannabis

up more more North and so they were kind

of going to their own Frontier but uh

really what's happened to the wine

industry the most the most interesting

things

um is a whole different you know there's

no such thing really as hey I'm gonna

get my plot of land and I'm gonna grow

grapes and then I'm gonna grow you know

make my wine and produce my wine there

now it is I'm gonna go Source grapes

from someone else from somewhere

multiple parts of California and I'll

find a way to produce it myself which

has brought down the cost of cap and the

cost of barrier to entry so you're

getting to see a lot more new influx of

new wine makers coming to the space that

are doing more interesting things so it

it definitely has had bad implications

no doubt especially for a specific place

but it's done interesting things on the

periphery too and you know in France

there's whole you know quote-unquote

terrorist organizations that are all

about stopping these corporate takeovers

of wineries they'll go and blow up

wineries that are you know bought by you

know you know International wine wine

fund you know so why are we not drinking

wine while talking right it's that's a

that's a good question that's a good

question it's almost five o'clock where

I am

um okay well so I want to hear your

Bitcoin journey and your career Journey

so uh you obviously are not running a

Vineyard you're running getting a

Bitcoin rewards debit card and uh and a

really cool app to help people learn

about Bitcoin and start getting in the

game so tell me a little bit about your

Bitcoin journey and how you ended up

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all right that's that kind of starts so

I I initially in out of Sonoma when I

was like what I really want to do I'm

gonna become a journalist I followed

migrant workers and took a lot of photos

it was like oh this is a path people

recognize that this is going great I'm

learning Spanish this is fun it's part

something I care about uh and so I was

you know I went to school and very

quickly said you know I went worked at

the uh this the University newspaper uh

I ran the Berkeley political review I

thought that was exactly what I wanted

and then I get to a point where I get

burnt out on

I think it was being stuck as an

observer and a commentator on things and

I realized that's just not who I am I

need to be I need to be doing I want to

be creating the news and so I was like I

know what I want to do I want to go into

politics which was the worst of my D you

know career detours and so I went to

work for a politician in uh in San

Francisco we were doing Senate campaigns

and

um very quickly there became so jaded

about the whole thing instead of doing

like I wanted to do and you know

creating stories I was begging for money

now it's not too different from what

you're doing at a startup now but anyway

um it was something that very quickly

became this is just this is in a very

quick amount of time I realized how much

I needed to go in a different direction

but there are consequences when you're

begging for money for the most part in a

small business there aren't consequences

when you get elected just just that

caveat it's it's so true it's so true

and the you know not to name names but I

was you know working on uh you know

campaigns where these were power Brokers

of San Francisco that you know Legacy

generations and you know you could be

great granddaughter great grandson and

be like I want to run and be the senator

here and that was a viable path and it

was like not so much nepotism and it

just felt it just felt bad and so I said

okay I need to go back to the drawing

board what the hell do I want to do

um and that is when being in the Bay

Area what else are you gonna do it's

like okay this is wild west of startup

and uh this was the you know birth of

the you know kind of Mobile you know

hyper growth period and there was just

opportunities everywhere and so uh I

started said you know this is something

I can do I can do what I like to do I

like to work with small groups of people

that really care about something uh you

know just muscle something out find a

you know group of early Believers and

then scale something out just make will

it into reality that was what I loved

and loved to do and so after

graduating Berkeley I kind of went in

and out of you know started a couple

startups of my own went into

um a couple that I had joined early in

between Rand stints at you know some of

the big names at Google and and others

and so I just got to see all aspects of

you know Tech and uh uh you know both

from the creating you know your own

concept from zero to one to working on

something that is you know scaling and

you know taking over the world and you

know made some good and bad ways and so

it was a a great experience that you

know allowed me to get there the problem

was what initially had me started

wanting to do journalism was I wanted to

really care about what I did and a lot

of things I was building which I loved

it didn't have that element of oh I love

this I believe in this I'm passionate

about it and so it still wasn't quite

right at that point

so had you discovered Bitcoin along this

journey of working in startups and

starting them yourself

yeah I think

um I I was Bitcoin showed up multiple

times you know as it does to people that

it takes a bit to get there but you know

I uh after at Berkeley I had a couple

interactions uh with people there up in

Sonoma there was a group so I I ran a um

uh was on the board for an organization

that brought services to migrant workers

coming through the valley so we'd say

Let's Get You legal help we've got

someone to be legal medical and we'd

bring people in to help them bring new

you know tools Services help for them

because it was totally marginalized you

know group that would just be

essentially powering this place but was

given zero you know skin in the game for

and so one of this group was a group

from Berkeley who came up and this guy

spoke about Bitcoin as a tool of

remittance back then and so at that

point I was just like it's a tool I saw

it as purely a tool a means of doing

something that wasn't a you know wasn't

much more than that just like a hammer

it wasn't it wasn't the movement in my

head at all or anything

um so I had that I I was fairly involved

in Occupy Wall Street in Oakland and yes

I was at Berkeley so there are a lot of

things going on at Berkeley you know

that uh that brought me into uh when

crossed paths with you know a lot of

different movements and things like this

back then and one of them was uh Occupy

Wall Street and uh so that was one of

the first times that I experienced that

as a tool because if you recall a lot of

uh the payment applications

um paypals venmos were just shutting

down these accounts everywhere and we

were using Bitcoin wallets to pay off

vendors to receive donations and it was

really amazing and so again for me

seeing it as a tool you know not someone

pitching a tool that someone else needed

like they were doing in the micro organs

but to me it was like oh this is this is

great but it was still very much a tool

semi-associated I still didn't quite get

the connection between you know Occupy

Wall Streets tenants and Bitcoin it was

more here's a tool to help you do what

you're going to do there

um and uh I my last year at Berkeley was

down in Argentina and it was with a

family guy I think this is I think it

was three months

after

uh Bitcoin went live and had the first

couple blocks remind I was like down

there in March or April something like

that it was also during one of

Argentina's a write-up uh before one of

their debt restructuring so just

hyperinflation I was going down there

being like well my Dollar's going really

far but wow I had I ended up living with

a family there who uh the I had a big

family dinner one time and I was sat

next to this guy who's a developer there

and he was like you heard of this thing

called Bitcoin uh and he put a lot of

his you know a lot of his wealth into it

and he very much someone who I've you

know kept upped you know kept up with

for a while uh was able to preserve his

wealth away from multiple debt

restructurings in Argentina in a way

that was you know absolutely blew my

mind and so you know so many of these

times were just like

Bitcoin as as a means of storing well

Bitcoin is a means of remittance of an

Unstoppable payment all of the great

headlines and I was still like you know

this is you know it's a kind of cool

thing on the side I didn't realize

this is the thing I need to be working

on this is actually what I need to be

working on it that didn't happen until

much later meeting meeting a friend at a

company I was also working at who was

building Bitcoin companies and Bitcoin

startups and I was realized wait this is

a this is a thing much bigger than these

isolated tools that I had and so it was

um I think the time between my first

interaction 2012 or so uh

actually using it and then actually

started it was you know

six years four years four four to five

years something like that so you know as

they say Bitcoin needs to hit you in the

head like three or four times before you

actually do something about it very true

guilty I first heard about it from from

people in San Francisco while I was

living in Sacramento and I dismissed it

and I wish I could go back in time

because I had more money it was cheaper

and I had like more savings at the time

that I could have put in but anyway we

all get it at the price we deserve

um okay so so let's let's share the

story of fold then

um I would love to hear how you came up

with the idea why you felt that there

was a need in the space for this and

just what was it like building a company

because I think that you know this space

is growing so quickly there is so much

energy and momentum even in a bear

Market people are building these apps

are gonna help onboard people and get us

to that hyper bitcoinization and and

some an app like yours is really helpful

because a lot of people I think want to

dabble a little bit they want to put a

toe in and they want to do it in a way

where they don't have to learn about a

cold storage wallet yet maybe they will

down the road but they just you know

maybe they just want to earn some SATs

by buying their Amazon gift card or

heading to the grocery store so tell me

about you know the origins of fold

now fold has had a couple iterations and

the first time that I you know uh

learned that I could build not only have

this thing that I do and love is build

things but I could do it for something

that I'm really passionate about I was

the first time I saw these two things

come together was working I was

Consulting for Google in the head of

Tech on like on my project was ended up

being my co-founder and he had started a

very you know side thing of hey let's I

you can sell me a gift card and I'll

give you Bitcoin it's essentially like a

exchange like a non-kyc exchange and I

was like oh my God this is this is

awesome you're helping people get

Bitcoin because they don't you know get

all these gift cards that they don't

want and they could sell it to you and

you're going to give them Bitcoin it's

great

um and so I started to think you know

could I work on this we had started to

build a relationship we'd kind of go

back and forth on where this idea could

go

and

to me it was just clear that this idea

of what Bitcoin is was way too big to be

something that was only serving the

small group of people who just already

wanted more Bitcoin and allow them a new

way of getting Bitcoin I needed I was

like this thing is huge why don't more

people know about this why doesn't my

mom have Bitcoin right now you know all

these people in Sonoma who maybe shared

a lot of these things of being

predisposed to Low Time preference you

know long-term investment why aren't why

you know proof of work all this stuff

why these are Concepts that should be

more widely known and really I looked

around the space and all the on-ramps

were about mostly about trading you know

just how to flip to get you know to get

rich and play the you know the gamble

the gamble game and then there was some

about investing more like hey it's you

know allocate one percent of your

portfolio to bitcoin

but really those audiences around that

are already already people who already

invest it's not new people coming into

space it's you know Traders were already

there and they're already being well

served by you know name you know XYZ

going casino and I looked at it and

say how do we how do we access and tap

into a much larger market how do we do

that because at the end of the day fold

is very much like an exchange you earn

rewards and we convert that into Bitcoin

for you

but the difference is instead of

focusing on Traders and investors we

focus on just consumers people who buy

things and people who want to buy things

and

looked at the problem and said well I

think we should work on let's tap into

this let's get more bitcoiners in and

then we'll work on all the other things

that we wanted and so looking at the

opportunity I saw the rewards you know

90 plus percent of American families are

participating rewards programs

um the most of the people who are active

in rewards programs are women and young

people both demographics that are not

well you know have never had seen a

Bitcoin product really tailored to them

that provided value and so rewards very

quickly became a very easy way to think

about onboarding the masses and

um you know with rewards also you don't

need a wallet you don't need to buy it

you don't need to set up you know go

through kyc it provided this perfect

on-ramp in the Bitcoin like you said of

just starting to get a hold of some

start to learn about it have it Be A

Conversation Piece when you're with your

friends at dinner and say I have a

little bit of Bitcoin and then it's it

kind of creates this Snowball Effect and

so that's where the idea of fold came it

was like hey we had this gift card thing

an exchange thing but we don't have the

right end uh end consumer for this idea

who's is much bigger than you know than

it is it's way way bigger for and so we

needed to match match it to something

that was able to capture millions of

people you know that instead of just the

people who are already you know already

knew about it and so that's kind of the

origin of where folds idea fell into

place

well you're so right I mean everyone

wants to earn rewards for just the

everyday purchases that they make and

the ones that I think became the most

popular had to do with travel I

certainly before I got the fold card

um wanted you know my airline miles or

my hotel points and you realize those

suffer from inflation as well because

they're just the company's coins

whereas this you're earning actual

Bitcoin and uh and I have my fold I have

my full card I'm gonna show it because I

carry it with me everywhere and by the

way guys will didn't ask for this

interview I'm just obsessed with this

company and so I wanted to bring them on

because I'm really proud to partner with

you guys and I use this all the time and

it's an easy way to tell people about it

because you spin a wheel and you feel

like you're on Wheel of Fortune which

was always the dream show that I wanted

to get on but I didn't

um but I did want to ask you you know

you you have Partnerships with like the

traditional you know the Fiat payment

rails this is I know that we all want to

Envision a world where we have this

circular Bitcoin economy and everyone's

just transacting in stats but the

reality is that we still have these

on-ramps and off ramps and we have these

Legacy companies like Visa that you know

you have to work with so can you talk a

little bit about that and where are the

two intersect and you know could Bitcoin

obfuscate companies like that it's time

for a quick break to hear these messages

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itrust.capital Natalie Brunell yeah

that's a that's a good and big question

you know uh part of our strategy was to

meet people where they are already right

we're already buying stuff we're already

going to Amazon we're already going to

Starbucks let's make it so that you're

earning Bitcoin every time you you do

that and it's easy to say Bitcoin is you

know it's harder to make the case

against someone brand new that Bitcoin

is a better version of the dollar that K

that creates some a little bit more

education it's really easy to say that

Bitcoin is a better version of a hotel

Point reward Point Airline mile that

they themselves know get devalued and

you know have no value in many cases and

so it's like a it's a perfect thing and

said hey let's change the discussion

right now instead of Bitcoin versus the

dollar and the FED all that stuff hey

Bitcoin versus your reward point it wins

every single time and so uh the job was

just to meet people where they are let's

make it very easy for them let's have

very familiar looking uh you know uh

tools that they can use to start this

journey and so that was a debit card

runs on Visa rails it was was our

Merchant offered networks which is gift

cards and card linked offers soon to be

and these things that people already do

that requires very little change in any

any behaviors at all but to your point

that requires us to go to Legacy Fiat

traditional companies which Bitcoin is

definitely a challenger against them and

say hey Bitcoin is going to be good for

you and here's why and that conversation

has always been very hard for a Bitcoin

company to make number one because early

Bitcoin when Bitcoin was early the only

real use case that was successful was

just trading was just high frequency

let's try to flip it buy coins and trade

back and forth it wasn't really relevant

to you know Mass Market

and so when fold came out the vision was

hey let's create a rewards company that

uh can change people's loyalty they're

gonna if you if you know if Uber comes

to us uh you know you're gonna have Lyft

wanted to come to us too because people

are going to earn Bitcoin by you know

going with Uber and using this thing we

had to prove that out over we had to

prove that over probably over two years

before merchants started to really

understand the power of this that you

know number one bit you know Bitcoin the

people that hold Bitcoin and care about

it is not a couple thousand people it's

tens of millions of people and they are

more motivated than your average

consumer and so they will change their

allegiance their loyalty and full got

all this data around this so that we

could show that someone will who came in

saying I am always you know Allegiant

you know have allegiance to this company

changed immediately when the competitor

comes on board with fold and it was a

really powerful value proposition for

these Merchants because you know before

Bitcoin and adoption in terms of

merchants was always like accept Bitcoin

accept Bitcoin as a payment

and they would do that and no one would

use Bitcoin as a payment for many

reasons number one because not many

people had Bitcoin number two now many

people wanted to spend it and so these

Merchants would say well Bitcoin didn't

help my business in fact it created a

bad PR moment for us and more

complicated

um you know payment uh processing for me

but when you talk about it from a

rewards perspective and say hey I will

bring hundreds of thousands of new

customers to you who will totally become

your most loyal customers that is when

they start to think about this a little

bit more and so we're able to create

these Partnerships from there Visa saw

how fast our Rewards program is growing

we approach them with the idea of

creating the Bitcoin Rewards Card uh

they said great we were the first

company Bitcoin company accepted in

their Fast Track program we brought it

to market the full debit card became one

of the fastest growing debit card

programs ever to launch on Visa and what

it did was it just it it one of these

things those numbers don't lie like we

can talk a lot about you know why or why

not you should or not adopt Bitcoin but

that the world really works according to

show me the numbers show me the money

and this our conversations got easier

and easier number one because we are a

good company that takes care of our

users and our partners we don't do a lot

of the things that unfortunately loses a

lot of credibility for our industry that

we've seen over the past couple of

months but also we bring good business

to those that work with us and so that

is just open doors time and time again

and that's the blueprint we kind of run

on is let's align incentives and just

grow

right I want to talk a little bit about

how you've been growing in a bear Market

as well you've made some really exciting

announcements and you're right we've

seen some of the other companies wash

away in the space there was another

credit card that offered rewards and now

that company's gone and we don't have to

name it but it's gone and so clearly you

guys have been doing something right can

you talk a little bit about building in

this bear market and the challenges but

also the opportunities maybe it presents

for for the industry you know fold has

now gone through a couple Market Cycles

with with Bitcoin bears and bowls and so

we've been able to learn a little bit

how this this works and uh the bear

markets are for creating all the value

that will be used and demonstrated in

Bull markets if you're trying to do that

during a bull market you're way too late

because the growth is is way too fast

bitcoin's growth Cycles during bull

markets bring in millions of people you

know on a daily basis to this new thing

and exposes brand new people so you

really need to make sure that you can

not only survive through a bear Market

but continue to build and

um build the unfortunate part about that

is a lot of bear markets are also the

times when bitcoin's credibility or

reputation is also not as bright it's

not the hot thing anymore and so it's

harder to get these sometimes it's

harder to build and it's much harder to

build when you have to rely on

Partnerships and so building a a

business that has a good reputation in

bowl and bear markets and that says that

we take care of our customers our

customers are aligned with us our

incentives helps us go and in Bear Mark

and say okay there are these there are

this there's this side of the industry

that for whatever reason made these um

business choices that were bad for their

users and bad for their partners

and then there's this side and this is

companies like fold that we we do it

right we show a pathway number one how

to survive but also how to thrive and

our partners Thrive too watch go go ask

you know go ask a Visa or our banking

Partners or anyone else and they will

Echo this sentiment and this allows us

to continue that momentum through bear

markets so one of the things that we

were able to just announce was

that bold um will be uh operating

globally for our Rewards program and not

only that get get help directly from our

Banking and card processing Partners to

move very fast which is something that's

not nothing ever happens fast in the

traditional banking industry so that was

a huge thing to be able to just get

during a bear Market at the same time I

think three weeks before there was a

Forbes article about how Visa is ending

all relationships with you know crypto

businesses right and you know I'm

sitting on this press release being like

well not this one and that's a lot of

being working in this stage of not just

being the example that you would want to

partner with and just continuous to

focus on that because the more you

demonstrate that the more that in bad

times people are going to stick with you

and be loyal so I think it was a it

really was just a you know a

demonstration of years of work really to

get things like that to happen wow for

sure sure well you know having been

through several Cycles is there any

lesson it that makes Maybe This Bear

Market

different that we can learn from

especially for the newcomers I have a

lot of people who watch the show or or

follow my content because they're trying

to learn and they're they're starting

from Ground Zero they're they're just

dipping their toes in and something like

this might be really interesting to them

because they're just they're already

spending the money right on different

things in their lives and now they can

earn Bitcoin back but what's what's

maybe different about this bear market

and what's the lesson that can be taken

away

this is I think this is one of my

favorite bear markets that we've had and

that's because most of bitcoin's bear

markets have been in times when the

greater economy is either doing okay or

doing very very well and so it's always

hard to have you know Bitcoin go into a

bear Market when everything is ripping

and people are like wow look at what a

you know a scam a failure a debt you

know whatever they're gonna throw at it

in this spare Market not only has

Bitcoin been able to sustain a a you

know the a price floor that is just

phenomenal to me with the implosions

across the you know the the economy but

the economy itself is showing why we

need Bitcoin

um from everything from the recent bank

failures that we had and I issues with

fractional Reserve banking to the idea

of living with inflation or just

printing more money to options that we

do not want to have but those are the

options that we get

um waiting on you know just waiting for

you know uh Powell to come out and say

you know which way the wind blows this

day and none of those things are are

present in Bitcoin and in fact Bitcoin

has looked like a damn stable coin

during this whole whole this time and it

has become a you know a Bastion of

stability which it is and that's a hard

thing for people to get in a time when

the economy is doing all right and

Bitcoins you know doing its price

Discovery but in a time when the whole

wrestle economy is shaking and Bitcoin

is remaining steady a mission is you

know blocks are are being mined block by

block uh the monetary policy isn't

changing it's continuing to add add

value that conversation is much easier

to have with new people than it was

previously and so I really like this

bear Market because of that it's

demonstrating the value of that Bitcoin

can bring into people's lives and you

know for where you know I come from I

graduated college in you know around 08

there's been nothing stable about our

Fiat economy and it's like wait let's

really understand that and once you

think about that and really absorb that

you feel how stable Bitcoin is and what

a stable Foundation it can provide for

families for individuals for businesses

and it's it's a hard thing to learn but

I think this bear Market allows us to

get as close as we've ever been

the thing that you you said about Powell

and

and where the wind's going to Blow In

terms of the monetary policy it

literally just made me think of could

you imagine if in nature there was one

person that decided the weather for like

the wine making industry for example and

the these Vines got water these Vines

got sunshine like what it would never

work right you get to pick winners and

losers and yet we essentially have that

in our our system manipulating the base

layer of our entire economy and how we

function day to day I mean it's just

it's just crazy but you and I were

clearly in college around the same time

and

um one thing that I've you know really

noticed and become passionate about is

this idea that our generation

Millennials young people they really

don't have a seat at the table

financially and and wealth accumulation

and generation is very difficult because

um so few people have have the power and

access to Capital and so how do you

catch up how do you get the house and a

lot of people have put off having

families but you clearly have not you're

a new dad you have a beautiful family

Beauty beautiful wife I hope I get to

see her I don't know if you guys are

going to be at the Bitcoin conference

but um but can you share a little bit

about why that was maybe something that

was important for you because really I

mean today and turn on the news right it

shows the worst of society I'm so

grateful not to be in that industry

anymore but it's like no one's having

kids anymore everyone thinks that the

world is gonna you know blow up in a

climate emergency it's like all so

negative and yet there are bitcoiners

who are thriving and and creating

abundance and building families and

teaching their kids about Bitcoin so why

was that something that was important to

you

I think uh whether we're talking about

Bitcoin or

um families or you know just investing

in things that are long-term is really a

symptom of that exactly right we are

living in a time where the end times

seem nigh and are constantly said you

know repeated to you on from all sides

from all from everybody it's uh very

much a uh a pessimist world right now

and to to feel optimistic about

something to find Pathways and friends

and uh practices and behaviors that that

Foster optimism is I think one of the

most powerful things you can do in this

world right now Bitcoin is one of those

things that is a fundamentally an

optimist

um technology and Optimist culture uh

building a family I believe is a is a

inherently optimistic uh statement it's

it's saying leave in this next

Generation I believe it will be good I

believe things may not be good now but

it will be whether it's something that

we do or that our children do it it is a

believing in a future and I think

um you know I think I certainly have

been in places in my life where I have

been over you know part of a nihilist

you know perspective and I think this

world is breeding a ton of nihilism and

so anything that we can do surrounding

yourself with the things that breed

optimism and it's a kind of a cyclical

thing is is a thing that's going to make

your life your own life way way better

and it's something that will just have

an ambient effect on those around you

and so again there's a couple Optimist

Optimist technologies that we know

Bitcoin

child you know child bearing family

creating uh you know building a home

wherever that is in whatever way you can

imagine spending time with your family

um building Community all those things

uh just just are able to double down on

each other and amplify one another in a

way that you know ultimately you can

kind of create a world that feels super

optimistic even though if you look

Beyond a little bit the rest of the

world may not be living in it but

um I I think it's I think it's the best

most you know revolutionary thing you

can do is is to be an optimist these

days I love it yeah Bitcoin is an

anti-nihilism tool maybe there we go

title of this all right well it's been

such a pleasure to talk to you any just

final thoughts or or messages to share

whether it's about yourself your

thoughts on bitcoin or your company

oh man well I think uh

I all I love the Bitcoin Community House

how tight-knit it is how the fact of you

know when you build something you have

an inherent group of people who are

there waiting to try it to give you

feedback and so anything that you want

to see about fold improved like my DMs

are always open but I encourage you to

um not only do the ones that are you

know are the folds of the world or you

know your other sponsors the good our

good friends Swan but contribute to open

source projects download uh you know

open source applications uh use you know

get on Master these things are the the

Bedrock that will allow us to go for the

next 10 to 15 years whereas these

on-ramps now that we have and that are

building fold being one is is incredible

and it will bring new generations of

bitcoiners to the space that otherwise

would not have entered but at the end of

the day we can't forget the projects

that also normally don't get the funding

they need don't get the users they need

so give them feedback use their you know

use use their tools and I think

ultimately will be set up for a good a

good future with a lot of cool new

things to use and then

um the other bit is uh support our

wonderful Bitcoin Educators and uh

creators you've been an amazing

inspiration for us at fold I know

everyone listens to your show on the

team so uh we are very grateful for you

as well well I'm very grateful I'm

honored to be partnered with fold so I

hope everyone does you know get the

app card you can go to foldapp.com

Natalie they'll give you some free SATs

because they're so generous and it's

just I'm gonna I'm actually gonna put my

dinner tonight with Natalie smolenski

one of my favorite bitcoiners another

Natalie in this space I'm gonna put it

on my fold card tonight but well thank

you so so much and and I hope to get to

see you and your family soon we will

thank you so much for checking out this

episode of coin stories again hit like

on the video and make sure that you have

those notifications on so you don't miss

out on any new episodes and I would love

to hear from you if you have suggestions

feedback guest requests please email me

at Natalie talkingbitcoin.com thanks so

much