Learnskin Podcast S1 Ep 22: Skin The Traditional Chinese Medicine Way featuring Mazin Al Khafaji
Summary
TLDRIn diesem Podcastdiskurs mit Dr. Raja und Dr. Hadar geht es um die faszinierende Welt der Haut und ihrer Auswirkungen auf unsere Gesundheit, Psychologie und soziale Beziehungen. Sie sprechen mit Mazin Al-Kafaji, einem Meisterheilpflanzenkundler und Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) Praktiker, der seine tiefe Kenntnis der chinesischen Medizin und seine Erfahrung in der Behandlung von Hautinfektionen und atopischer Dermatitis teilt. Al-Kafaji betont die Notwendigkeit einer ganzheitlichen Herangehensweise an die Behandlung von Krankheiten und betont die Bedeutung der Qualitätskontrolle in der Herstellung von Heilmitteln. Zudem diskutieren sie die Sicherheit und Effektivität der chinesischen Medizin und die Herausforderungen bei der Integration dieser Praxis in die westliche Medizin.
Takeaways
- 🌿 Die chinesische Medizin hat eine lange Geschichte und ist ständig weiterentwickelt, um Krankheiten effektiv zu behandeln.
- 🔬 Chinesische Medizin betrachtet den Körper als ein dynamisches System, das ständig die Gleichgewichtsfindung mit der Umwelt sucht.
- 🩺 Die Behandlung von Hautinfektionen und atopischer Dermatitis in der chinesischen Medizin beinhaltet drei Hauptansätze: das Auflösen, Harmonisieren und Stärken.
- 🌱 Der 'Dissipierende' Ansatz verwendet antibakterielle Inhaltsstoffe, ähnlich wie Antibiotika, aber weniger stark, um Infektionen zu behandeln.
- 🤝 Der 'Harmonisierende' Ansatz ist für chronische Erkrankungen gedacht, bei denen Bakterieninfektionen oder -ansammlungen Teil des Problems sind.
- 💪 Der 'Stärkende' Ansatz wird verwendet, um das Immunsystem zu unterstützen und die Vitalität zu stärken, um Bakterieninfektionen zu überwinden.
- 🧬 Die chinesische Medizin betrachtet die Mikrobiom-Dysbiose als eine Veränderung der Mikrobenkolonisation, die zu Hautinfektionen führen kann.
- 🌐 Mazin Al-Kafaji, ein Meisterheiler und praktizierender Chinesischer Medizin, betont die Bedeutung von Qualitätskontrolle bei der Herstellung von Arzneimitteln.
- 🔬 Mazin Al-Kafaji führt klinische Tests durch, um die Sicherheit der chinesischen Medizin zu gewährleisten und sammelt Daten über die Wirksamkeit der Behandlungen.
- 🌐 Es gibt eine wachsende internationale Gemeinschaft von Experten, die an der Verbesserung der Standards und der Effektivität der chinesischen Medizin arbeiten.
Q & A
Was ist das Hauptthema des LearnScan Podcasts mit Dr. Raja und Dr. Hadar?
-Das Hauptthema des Podcasts ist die Gesichtspunkte der Haut, die in vielerlei Hinsicht unsere Gesundheit, Psychologie und den Zusammenhalt mit unserer Umgebung beeinflusst.
Wer sind Mazin Al-Kafaji und was macht er in Bezug auf die chinesische Medizin?
-Mazin Al-Kafaji ist ein Meisterheilpflanzenkundler und praktizierender traditioneller Chinesischer Medizin. Er hat sein eigenes Dispensary namens Avicenna Dispensary und kümmert sich um Qualitätskontrolle bei der Herstellung von Behandlungen, Hautcreme und Salben.
Wie befasst sich der Podcast mit der chinesischen Medizin in der Dermatologie?
-Der Podcast geht auf die Entwicklung und Anwendung der chinesischen Medizin in der Dermatologie ein, insbesondere bei chronischen Erkrankungen und Infektionen wie atopischer Dermatitis.
Was versteht man unter der 'harmonisierenden Methode' in der chinesischen Medizin?
-Die harmonisierende Methode zielt darauf ab, komplexe Formeln zu verwenden, um nicht nur eine bakterielle Kolonisation zu behandeln, sondern auch die Funktion des Körpers wiederherzustellen, um einen Zustand der Harmonie und Balance zu erreichen.
Wie wird eine bakterielle Infektion oder Kolonisation in der chinesischen Medizin angesehen?
-In der chinesischen Medizin wird eine bakterielle Infektion oder Kolonisation als Teil eines komplexen Bildes betrachtet, wo sie Metaphern wie 'toxisches Hitze' oder 'feuchtes Hitze' verwenden, um die Symptome zu beschreiben.
Was sind die drei grundlegenden Ansätze der chinesischen Medizin zur Behandlung von bakteriellen Infektionen?
-Die drei grundlegenden Ansätze sind die 'Verteilungsmethode', die 'Harmonisierungsmethode' und die 'Unterstützungsmethode', die jeweils auf die Art der Infektion und den Zustand des Immunsystems des Patienten abgestimmt sind.
Wie wichtig ist die Sicherheit der Patienten für Mazin Al-Kafaji?
-Die Sicherheit der Patienten hat für Mazin Al-Kafaji oberste Priorität. Er führt routinemäßig Leber- und Nierenfunktionstests durch und hat eine Datenbank mit nahezu 10.000 Fällen, in denen er festgestellt hat, dass es äußerst selten zu Problemen mit den Leberenzymen kommt.
Was ist das Ziel der International Traditional Chinese Medicine Dermatology Association, der Mazin Al-Kafaji beigetreten ist?
-Das Ziel der ITCMDA ist es, Standards zu setzen, eine Ethik zu fördern, die kontinuierliche Bildung und Professionalität in der Welt der traditionellen chinesischen Medizin zu fördern.
Welche Rolle spielt die chinesische Medizin bei der Behandlung von chronischen Erkrankungen wie atopischer Dermatitis?
-Die chinesische Medizin kann bei der Behandlung von chronischen Erkrankungen wie atopischer Dermatitis helfen, indem sie den Körper in einen stabilen Zustand zurückversetzen und die Notwendigkeit einer übermäßigen Antibiotikatherapie reduzieren kann.
Was wird im zweiten Annual Integrative Dermatology Symposium besprochen?
-Das Symposium bietet eine pädagogische Erfahrung mit Informationen zu verschiedenen Themen wie Psoriasis, atopischer Dermatitis, Ernährung und Hautmikobiom, Cannabinoide, Haarausfall und traditionelle chinesische Medizin.
Outlines
🌟 Einführung in die Podcast-Serie
Der Podcast 'Learnscan' mit Dr. Raja und Dr. Hadar widmet sich der Haut, die in vielerlei Hinsicht faszinierend ist, da sie unser Wohlbefinden, unsere Psychologie und unsere Beziehungen zu anderen beeinflusst. Der Podcast beleuchtet die Kunst und Wissenschaft der Hautpflege. Die Moderatoren sind beide zertifizierte Dermatologen und betonen, dass der Podcast nur pädagogischen und informationsdienstlichen Zwecken dient und keine medizinischen Beratungen ersetzen kann. Der erste Gast ist Mazin Al-Kafaji, ein Meisterheilpflanzenkundler und praktizierender traditioneller Chinesischer Medizin, der auch über Qualitätskontrolle bei der Herstellung von Behandlungen spricht.
🌿 Grundprinzipien der chinesischen Medizin
Mazin Al-Kafaji, der Gast, führt die Prinzipien der chinesischen Medizin ein, die auf der Auffassung beruhen, dass der Körper ein dynamisches System ist, das ständig die Balance mit der Umwelt aufrechterhält. Die chinesische Medizin betrachtet den Körper und Geist als Teil der Natur und setzt auf die Restaurierung von Harmonie und Gleichgewicht. Die Behandlung von Krankheiten zielt nicht nur auf die Bekämpfung des Erregers, sondern auf die Stärkung der natürlichen Abwehrkräfte des Körpers ab.
🛡️ Ansatz zur Behandlung von Hautinfektionen
Die chinesische Medizin hat drei grundlegende Ansätze zur Behandlung von Bakterieninfektionen: den 'Verteilungsmethode', die 'Harmonisierungsmethode' und die 'Unterstützungsmethode'. Die erste ist ähnlich wie Antibiotika, aber weniger stark und wird für einmalige Infektionen wie Impetigo verwendet. Die zweite ist für komplexere, chronische Erkrankungen gedacht, bei denen Bakterieninfektionen oder -ansammlungen eine Rolle spielen. Die dritte Methode unterstützt den Immunsystem, um Bakterieninfektionen zu überwinden, insbesondere bei schwächeren Immunsystemen.
🧬 Mikrobiom und die Rolle der chinesischen Medizin
Die Diskussion umfasst auch das Mikrobiom und wie die lokale Dysbiose, insbesondere bei atopischer Dermatitis, mit einer Übervektorisierung von Staphylokokken zu einem unbalanceierten Zustand führt. Die chinesische Medizin versucht, diese Dysbiose zu harmonisieren, bevor sie außer Kontrolle gerät. Dies spiegelt sich wider in der modernen Medizin, wo Antibiotika oft für ihre antiinflammatorischen Eigenschaften und nicht nur für ihre antibakteriellen Wirkungen eingesetzt werden.
🔬 Sicherheit und Lehre in der chinesischen Medizin
Mazin Al-Kafaji betont die Bedeutung der Sicherheit in der chinesischen Medizin und beschreibt seine Praxis, bei der er alle Patienten auf Leber- und Nierenfunktionen überprüft. Er hat eine Datenbank mit nahezu 10.000 Fällen, die zeigen, dass es äußerst selten zu Problemen mit Leberenzymen kommt. Mazin ist auch ein renommierter Lehrer, der anderen, wie chinesische Medizin angemessen angewandt werden kann, beiträgt. Er beteiligt sich an der Bildung von Fachleuten und fördert die Einhaltung von Standards und ethischen Richtlinien in der Welt der chinesischen Medizin.
🌐 Internationale Zusammenarbeit und Fortbildung
Mazin Al-Kafaji spricht über die Gründung der International Traditional Chinese Medicine Dermatology Association (ITCMDA), die darauf abzielt, Standards und ethische Richtlinien in der chinesischen Medizin zu etablieren und die kontinuierliche Bildung und Professionalität in diesem Bereich zu fördern. Die ITCMDA ist eine internationale Gemeinschaft, die auch konventionelle Ärzte aus verschiedenen Ländern umfasst. Der Podcast endet mit einer Ankündigung des zweiten jährlichen Integrative Dermatology Symposiums, bei dem Mazin Al-Kafaji sprechen wird.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Haut
💡Traditionelle chinesische Medizin
💡Atopische Dermatitis
💡Mikrobiom
💡Immunsystem
💡Antibiotika
💡Sicherheit
💡Lehren
💡Integrative Dermatologie
💡Symposium
Highlights
Dr. Raja Sivamani and Dr. Hadar Levtov introduce Mazin Al-Kafaji, a master herbalist and traditional Chinese medicine practitioner.
Mazin Al-Kafaji discusses the evolution of Chinese medicine and its relevance in the 21st century.
Chinese medicine's approach to health is based on the dynamic balance of the body-mind system.
Mazin explains the three basic protocols of Chinese medicine for treating bacterial infections.
The dissipating method is used for one-off infections, similar to antibiotics but less potent.
The harmonizing method is used for chronic diseases where bacterial colonization is part of the picture.
The supporting method focuses on a weakened immune state and uses ingredients to stimulate the immune system.
Mazin emphasizes the importance of restoring harmony in the body after removing infection.
Chinese medicine principles can be applied to skin infections and atopic dermatitis.
Mazin shares his experience with clinical trials on Chinese medicine for atopic eczema.
Safety of Chinese medicine is a priority, with Mazin conducting liver and kidney function tests on his patients.
Mazin's practice includes creating his own high-quality herbal medicines with full quality control.
The International Traditional Chinese Medicine Dermatology Association aims to set standards and promote ethical practice.
Mazin teaches Chinese medicine to both conventional doctors and practitioners, emphasizing practical clinical application.
The podcast concludes with an invitation to the Integrative Dermatology Symposium where Mazin will be speaking.
Transcripts
welcome to the learnscan podcast with dr
raja and dr haddar where they discuss
all things skin skin is fascinating
because it affects us in so many ways
like our health psychology and how we
connect with those around us
this podcast delves into the art and
science of skin care
a short disclaimer before we get to the
good stuff dr raj sivamani and dr hadar
levtov
are board certified dermatologists this
podcast is meant for educational and
informational purposes
only all opinions shared do not express
the views of learned skin
neither this podcast nor any information
contained within it are a substitute for
professional care by a doctor
or other qualified medical professional
this podcast does not constitute medical
or other professional advice or services
hey raja how are you today
hey adar how are things things are going
pretty good i think
we have another podcast today and you
know i
am very very excited about our guest
today because when
people ask me about alternative
approaches to
medicine in general chinese medicine is
one that i think of one of the first
ones that comes to mind
and when i think of chinese medicine
dermatology i
i don't think anybody thinks of anybody
else but our guest today would you like
to introduce our mystery guest
oh our mystery guest is quite well known
it's
mazin al-kafaji he's master herbalist
and he has been studying chinese
medicine
probably in the most authentic way of
anyone i've ever met
so mazin is not only is he a master
herbalist and traditional chinese
medicine practitioner
he also talks a lot about quality and
quality control on how
the treatments are made and he has his
own dispensary called the avicenna
dispensary
i've been there it is such a workshop of
how they've put together this
whole process and he has his own herbs
and
he you know has full quality control i
think not only about just
making orals and what what now he's also
got a way of making an effective range
of skin creams and ointments
and so uh we truly are in for a treat
today because
it's from beginning to end master
diagnostician he's got a great
photograph room
and the ability to control how he's
going to be delivering each of the
treatments that he's going to be doing
uh mazin welcome and we're so excited to
be talking to you today on the podcast
welcome
roger thank you very much that's an
awesome introduction
it's a great pleasure for me to be here
thank you absolutely and
i think not to give away your age but
mazin has been practicing and
actually publishing uh since the last
century and the reason i mentioned this
is because he has been witnessing
firsthand
how the approach to chinese medicine and
dermatology
has evolved over the years so i would
like to start our discussion
maybe mazin by you telling us why should
our listeners care about chinese
medicine in the 21st century isn't this
some ancient thing that somebody found
in a scroll a while back
well it certainly is ancient i mean it's
history goes back to the very dawn of
time really with the bone oracle
carvings of
names of diseases especially actually
skin disease but
what's so interesting about chinese
medicine is over the centuries
it's evolved it's gathered information
empirically
and really just developed into what we
see today which
i'm certainly a great fan because i use
it and i see its power
you know in china there are literally
thousands of hospitals where
traditional chinese medicine is
practiced and the chinese are very
practical people they won't
use something like this unless it had
its part to play they're
also very excited and use western
medicine
but they haven't abandoned their
traditional methods of treating
particularly chronic disease and i think
that's where chinese medicine comes
into its own it's the managing and
treating of these
persistent recalcitrant chronic diseases
that we see so much of
in this day and age mazin just to give
everyone a little bit of a background
i think a lot of people get piqued when
they start hearing about
traditional chinese medicine how ancient
it is can you give us just a small
overview on what are the
principles just in broad terms of how
you approach
the notion of health the notion of
imbalance
not being at harmony what is the central
tenant
of the approach and what is the way that
you approach
looking at treatments i think what's
really interesting about chinese
medicine or chinese science really and
it is a science
is their understanding that the body
mind system is a
complete dynamic fluctuating system
that's constantly adjusting itself
relative to the external environment
you know to maintain that equilibrium
that we think of as health
so their approach to understanding
how the body works and what happens when
it doesn't work correctly
is really based in that understanding
so they start with the premise that we
are part of nature
and like any ecosystem that we see
around us we are highly sophisticated
and really the approach to treatment of
disease is not just to
attack the the pathogen or the
disease process but to encourage a
restoration of
of harmony and balance to
this living organism that is so
incredible of course this sentient
beings that we are
thank you that's such a great way to
introduce the concept
i like the way you mention the concept
of maintaining health that's
probably the very definition of
integrative medicine and dermatology
specifically
i wanted i mean there's a such a wide
array of topics we can talk to you about
and i think today we wanted to maybe
focus
on some part of focus ourselves around
skin infections and i think the first
thing i wanted to talk to you about
is the concept of skin infection and
atopic dermatitis
i think there's clear notion at least in
the western
side of things that staph aureus maybe
some other bacteria play a role not only
in complicating the disease
but also in propagating the condition
and i'm wondering how do you approach
these
cases overall when you see because i
know that you treat
people with atopic dermatitis daily and
how do you
how do you approach this treatment for
prevention especially
employing chinese medicine principles
that talk about maintenance of health
yeah i think a really good way to
introduce that is just to speak very
briefly about how chinese medicine
tackles
bacterial infection or we can say also
bacterial colonization
so if i may just present an overview of
this absolutely go for it so we say that
when treating what we today will call
bacterial infection
chinese medicine has three basic
protocols for approaching it the first
is really to to treat what we call or to
use a method that's called the
dissipating method
and that is really equivalent to using
primarily antibacterial ingredients to
overact on bacteria and kill them off so
it's similar to antibiotics but
not as powerful as antibiotics but
actually very sufficient in many
instances
so we'd use it for treatment of one-off
infections
such as impetigo or furunkules
mastitis and such like so in this
instance
topical or as well internal medicine if
the disease is more
rampant are used to control the bacteria
and kill it off
and allow really the body's immune
system to re-establish
a stable state subsequently so usually
no follow-up treatment is required
that's the what we call a dissipating
method
the harmonizing method which is really
most
relevant for what you talking about
is used for more complex and typically
chronic diseases
where bacterial infections or
colonizations form
part of that picture in otherwise
relatively intact
immune system so here we use complex
formulae
to not only deal with the colonization
of the bacteria as we see it so in
chinese medicine we have our own
metaphors or language to describe that
of course
they didn't have this concept of
bacteria but they certainly understood
the concept that um
the body could be attacked by an
exterior pathogen
that then resides in the body so complex
formula are used to
not only resolve that what we might call
a toxic heat or a
or a damp heat pathogen in other words
treating the bacteria depending on how
it manifests
but most crucially to restore
function to the body once you've
achieved that
so just by using strong what we call
antibacterial
or antibiotic medicines in this day and
age
would be considered insufficient to
restore that harmony that the body is
lost
which really would have allowed the
colonization to take place i don't know
whether i made myself
clear there but perfectly clear actually
quite eloquently
as usual thank you so that's the the
harmonizing method and i can
easily speak more about that but the
third and final
protocol that we use for bacterial
infections is what we call a supporting
method
and that sort of segues into the
harmonizing method as well
and it's used in similar fashion so
basically not only
tackling the bacterial infection but
encouraging a
normality to emerge in the immune system
but in this instance
the focus is put rather on a weakened
immune state
and we use medicinals that are
supporting or what we call tonifying
ingredients that actually stimulate
immune system to work better
in order to be able to overcome the
bacterial infection
so typically we might use that method
for cases such as
mrsa mrsa type situations
in elderly patients or patients with
ulcers let's say
where they're the basic
foundation of their vitality is
insufficient to
dispose of this pathogen
what i think is really interesting about
what you're talking about it speaks to
concepts that
we are now utilizing in i think the
western approach i mean
antibiotics of course is to reduce
infections that are overt
now with the colonization as you
mentioned especially for atopic
dermatitis this really raises this
conversation about the microbiome
because we know that the local
microbiome
tends to be as we'd say dysbiotic with
an overgrowth of staph aureus
and of course the colonization there is
out of balance and then
i can't think of any better word than to
say a harmonizing method is exactly what
you're trying to do
in that scenario you're trying to
harmonize the bacteria before
it gets out of hand you know that's very
interesting and i think stimulating the
immune system we all know that there are
infections
let alone bacteria but even other
infections of course that sometimes
require the immune system to be
stimulated so
i think it's very interesting that these
concepts were there for millennia
and that they've been used in treatment
approaches so it's very interesting
yeah i know totally the case and
actually i draw parallels with what we
see around us
we see the kind of problems that we're
now facing in the world
a lot of them arise from really lack of
appreciation
of the interplay between the environment
around us and
our own environment so obviously we're
part of the
nature and part of the environment we
can't remove ourselves from this so
in the same way that in order to really
really tackle
climate change or the way forests grow
or don't grow
then we need to take into account all
aspects and
i think any system that starts with that
premise the understanding that we're
part of the integrated whole
it's a good place to start that's for
sure
so perhaps you could give us some
examples
of how you utilize this in practice i
mean i know that
we've we've had other podcasts about
chinese medicine and i think at this
point our listeners
understand that every case is is
different but by and large how do you
approach a specific
case of superficial infection let's say
in a kid or adult with atopic dermatitis
okay so that's a problem i see a lot of
in my practice
and i should also say actually at this
point in case i don't have a chance to
say it
other conditions where antibiotics are
often used in modern medicine
such as treatment of acne or rosacea
or chronic folliculitis this type of
problem also we use this
method so really what we're doing is
understanding from perspective of
chinese medicine
what is going on with the body so we
have our own metaphors
to describe real clinical events they
may sound odd to the modern ear
but i assure you they're they're it's
very much
part and parcel of the reality of what
we see in practice so
not unreasonably doctors ancient doctors
borrowed metaphors from nature to
describe these events so we might speak
about
heat or dampness or toxin and so on
so we use the first port of core when
faced with a patient
with atopic eczema who has let's say a
recurring infection
it may be really overt so there is you
know weeping
crusting patches of clear black locus
aureus
golden bacteria crusts
or it may be more subtle so the patient
may be prone to get some folliculitis or
really persistent eczema that just is
not
controlled properly with the usual
methods so
we make an assessment of that and as i
say we use
these these metaphors that we that we
understand fully and prescribe a formula
of medicines to
really to to counteract that pattern so
let's say a patient has
what we might consider toxic heat
alongside what we call blood heat
with wind so these are metaphors that
will make
complete sense to somebody who's versed
in chinese medicine
but so we'll formulate a prescription
that directly tackles that and chinese
medicine really is
it's it's a matter of understanding
these ingredients and how they combine
in order to resolve that kind of pattern
so let's say in this patient who's who's
had this low-grade infection
from by prescribing that kind of
medicine the toxic heat is removed so we
see a clear improvement
let's say there's no more infection or
there's folliculitis is cleared
well then the treatment is not over by
any means we then need to
move to the next step which is to
restore that
harmony and equilibrium that i was
speaking of earlier
in order that the the body is able to
maintain
that stability so really we understand
that in a situation where
illness takes over then the body is
unable to claw its way back to a stable
state so
the doctor's task is not only to
rid the patient of this toxic heat as we
see it
but to restore normal function
in order that the system can maintain
that once you've
taken away the buttresses or the the
help that
has achieved that mazdan thanks for
taking us through that i think
one of the things that's incredible
about thinking about these conditions
because the ones that you mentioned when
you talk about acne or rosacea
or when we say low-grade infect
infection we can just call that you know
over-colonization that's getting way out
of balance or atopic dermatitis
yes we do use antibiotics but i think we
all realize
in within dermatology and recurrent
folliculitis that
obviously has this low grade over
colonization that
then can prolong to become a
folliculitis that keeps coming back over
and over again
like you mentioned these are chronic
conditions where the antibiotics serve a
purpose to be perhaps more of an
anti-inflammatory
or at least just to get a colonization
back under control
and it's been a challenge i think
amongst our field i think
many of us would agree that the
challenge is that we want to try to
reduce antibiotics for those
situations where there's a clear-cut
overt
infection that is getting out of control
and using the antibiotics in that kind
of a scenario
but we do we really do struggle when
it's
being used for this chronic
anti-inflammatory reasons
or for for lack of a better term to try
to harmonize the body before it gets out
of control i mean we
we have our approaches so i think
listening to you talk about this is
incredibly
important because it shows that there
are other options to try to keep that
anti-inflammatory stance for
these conditions without necessarily
using up antibiotics which are so
important that we use them up
appropriately so we don't start getting
drug resistant bacteria and whatnot
yeah completely the case i mean
antibiotic resistance as you know is one
of the biggest threats really to global
health
and more and food security and
development and really an urgent
urgently new approaches to the use of
this wonderful medicine i mean
antibiotics are incredible medicine
but they need to be used appropriately
and particularly if there are
other options where actually you can
nudge the body back into a stable state
which is of course
very accessible i mean we take for
granted how well the body maintains
health but it's a it's it's a miracle a
minute
that this is the case so really with a
bit of help
we can we can really avert the need i'm
convinced of this because i do this
day in day out and have as you say done
it for 30 odd years
i'm convinced that chinese medicine has
a part to play
in reducing this burden that excessive
antibiotic
use i agree and
a few things that come to mind when i
heard you speak
one thing was about the idea that not
only when you see an overt
infection on a topic but you see flare i
think when you see a flare and you're
not sure what's going on at least one of
my teachers always say you know think of
staff
that's probably driving this we also try
to target that and i think it's very
interesting that these
observations have been made for
millennia you know one of the things
that i wanted to ask you because this
comes up in my conversations
with other practitioners about chinese
medicine and i wanted to
take advantage of your perspective
because i know you worked through the
years a lot the western dermatologist
is the issue of safety sometimes that's
brought up as an issue with chinese
medicine and i know that you from our
conversations and from listening to your
talks before
i know that you go to a great extent to
ensure your patients safety can you
speak to that because i think it's
important
for people to feel comfortable working
with chinese medicine practitioner and
collaboration to know that
their patients are safe yeah totally
obviously
above all patient has to be safe you
know i got involved when i came back
from china
30 odd years ago with some
dermatologists who were way ahead of
their time i would say and ran some
clinical trials on the treatment of
atopic eczema
using chinese medicine because they'd
noticed that patients of theirs had
shown remarkable improvement using this
method of treatment
and of course it was standard policy
then to do a liver and kidney function
tests alongside
the trials that they ran incidentally
the trials were
showed spectacular improvement in the
patients that they took on and they were
all severe cases
but at that stage there was also this
question mark about
safety of chinese medicine which of
course is always paramount
so from that time onwards i have tested
all my patients in-house run liver and
kidney function tests
on all of them and i'd say by now i must
have
close to 10 000 cases in my database
and i can tell you that it's extremely
rare
to to get any elevation which is
problematic of liver enzymes let's say
kidney i've i've never seen any problems
at all
liver enzymes sometimes can fluctuate
and go upwards but it's extremely
uncommon
to see anything going beyond slight
elevations as i say
and quite often they return to normal of
their own account
if they continue to rise and there's a
problem and sometimes that can happen
then obviously we will draw the medicine
and that's the end of that that
type of medicine may not be appropriate
so those would be idiosyncratic
responses
but by now even though i continue to
test all my patients
i feel that it's really being
using the belt embraces method as we say
and really being
extra cautious and also just to continue
to collect data
but i'm convinced that chinese medicine
in the grand scheme of things
is a very safe form of treatment yes
and thank you for mentioning testing and
continuing your database because i think
your approach is so inspiring
to other practitioners that really have
a need for
real data to support decisions and i
think you've been a champion of that and
i think we all are grateful for you for
doing that and you mentioned your
practice and i think in the introduction
we didn't mention one very important
thing is that you are really a renowned
teacher
and teach others how to practice chinese
medicine in an appropriate way
because there is that tendency sometimes
trying to take chinese medicine and put
it into a capsule and sell it
and i think from i think from our
conversations from conversations i've
had with other chinese medicine
practitioners
that is probably not the way to do this
so i
i think i wanted to ask you when you are
getting other doctors come to your
clinic you do your
famous fellowship what do you notice
about how they
change over time and their thinking
because they probably come from
understanding of some western
medicine and how they think about
chronic disease when
they go through your fellowship
you know it's a whole range of things
actually i teach a lot in germany
and austria and switzerland where the
majority of my
students are actually conventional
doctors many of them are
dermatologists or immunologists there's
a lot of interest in
in those countries in the role of
chinese medicine can play in
treatment of chronic disease whereas in
britain or in
the us most of my students actually are
practitioners of chinese medicine so
most of them would have had to have gone
through a four-year
program and get a degree in chinese
medicine so
it's quite varied really the approaches
or the expectations of people can be
quite varied having said that the german
and austrian doctors are also usually
very well
versed in chinese medicine when i what i
teach is really immunology
and dermatology which i'll include also
allergy there because these are all
conditions that i see a lot of so really
i just i
present more detail in those areas
to my students and i see over a period
of time because my approach to treat to
teaching is very practical
and clinic clinical based understanding
of
how they should use chinese medicine
which is a
seriously sophisticated system which
uses a vast range of ingredients in
combinations
in order to achieve changes in the body
so it's
it's really it's not an easy thing to to
get your head around and it takes many
years to
develop that that knowledge base
but i think we're increasingly getting
that type of standard so chinese
medicine really is in its infancy in the
west
but in the past 20 30 years it's it's
moved on a lot
with that in mind i've in the past
year or so have finally collected
together some like-minded people and
people with good experience and
good training many of them have done so
for decades
and set up this international
traditional chinese medicine
dermatology association to try and
really set a standard
and encourage sort of a code of ethic
continual educational development
training and professionalism in in our
world which is still
needs that in order to really establish
and
get the very best out of what chinese
medicine can do
mazin we in ayurveda we joke about not
using scrolls anymore and
moving to the 21st century with a
website and i'm assuming that
the itc mda has a website as well is
that correct
that's correct yes you know what we'll
do actually we can put it into the
description when we say when we put this
podcast out there we'll put it in the
description so that if people want to
learn more about the association
which i think by the way is a very
important movement and i
i'm thrilled to see that you're really
thinking about this the code of ethics
and
actually getting a group of like-minded
people that's
wonderful there's a ground swell there
so we'll make sure that can include that
thank you yes it's very exciting because
also it's an international
community so i have many of the european
doctors and many of them are
conventional doctors as well as the
north american
group so it is definitely an
international organization
and we have a lot of people with good
experience who are really pushing that
forward
so the idea really is to have a standard
and get people to
belong to the association and maintain
their skill set
with time and and hopefully we can
demonstrate
more clearly with clinical trials and
such like the efficacy of
chinese medicine is going forward well
that is an unbelievably important cause
so uh thank you for championing that
and giving us a hint for your teaching
abilities because
i know that you're coming to san diego
to the integrative dermatology symposium
to speak in more detail about various
topic and dermatology and so i'm
eager to hear more and i think all our
listeners are probably eager to hear
more so we're looking forward to your
talk and other workshop that i think
you're running there that'll be at the
integrative dermatology symposium this
coming october in san diego so with that
i think i want to thank you
this was this has been such a great
stimulating discussion we went through
the principle of chinese medicine talk
about infection went to
teaching and championing safety and
research and data
in chinese medicine i mean i think we
covered so much in such a little time
and there's so much more to cover so
thank you very much
raja thank you very much for giving me
this platform it's really wonderful
i very much look forward to coming to
san diego in october
thank you thank you for tuning in to the
learnskin podcast with dr raja and dr
hadar we would like to take this moment
to tell you about our upcoming second
annual integrative dermatology symposium
to be held at the coronado island
marriott in san diego california
this program is an educational
experience jam-packed with information
including case-based discussions and
multiple perspectives on topics such as
psoriasis
atopic dermatitis diet and skin
microbiome
cannabinoids hair loss traditional
chinese medicine and much much more
go to
www.integrativedermatologysymposium.com
and register today we look forward to
seeing you there
[Music]
you
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