Is Donbas historically Russian or Ukrainian? | Serhii Plokhy and Lex Fridman

Summary

The script discusses the complex history and current situation of the Donbas region in Ukraine. It highlights the principle of nationalism and how it influenced the political and cultural borders in Eastern Europe. The industrialization of Donbas during the Russian Empire led to a diverse population, with a significant Russian presence. Economic decline and the Rust Belt narrative are also key factors in the region's challenges. The script touches on the role of Russia in the destabilization of Donbas, with key figures linked to Moscow. It also addresses the narrative of ethnic Russian persecution, contrasting it with the reality of language use in the region.

Takeaways

• 🌏 The principle of nationalism seeks to align political borders with ethnic and cultural ones, influencing the mapping of East European countries in the 19th and 20th centuries.
• 📈 Donbas was considered Ukrainian due to its majority Ukrainian population at the beginning of the 20th century and was claimed during revolutionary wars.
• 🏭 Donbas became a key industrial site in the Russian Empire due to its mining and metallurgical industries, attracting workers from various parts of the empire.
• 👥 The population of Donbas became ethnically mixed, with Ukrainians still forming the majority but not necessarily in urban areas, leading to a growing Russian cultural influence.
• 🏙️ Apart from Crimea, Donbas had a significant Russian ethnic presence, though they were not the majority, they were a substantial and influential group.
• 🏗️ Donbas experienced a dramatic economic decline as a classic Rust Belt region, with mines no longer producing coal at acceptable prices, leading to job losses and social issues.
• 🔥 The situation in Donbas was destabilized by the Russian Federation, exploiting economic and ethnocultural factors, with key figures in the region having ties to Moscow.
• 💬 Russia's justification for involvement in Donbas is framed as a defensive war to protect ethnically Russian people, though this narrative is contested.
• 🗣️ The Russian language is not persecuted in Ukraine, and in Donbas and Crimea, it is common to hear Russian spoken, contrary to claims of linguistic oppression.
• 🚫 The absence of mass mobilizations of Russians in Crimea and Donbas prior to Russian military involvement suggests that the narrative of self-defense may be an excuse for intervention.

Q & A

What is the principle of nationalism as mentioned in the script?

The principle of nationalism is about making political borders coincide with ethnic and cultural borders.

How was the region of Donbas considered in the early 20th century?

Donbas was considered to be Ukrainian, as the majority of its population were Ukrainians at the beginning of the 20th century.

What led to the ethnic and cultural mix in Donbas?

The industrialization and mining industry in Donbas attracted people from various parts of the Russian Empire, leading to a mixed population.

How did the city of Mariupol's population composition change?

In Mariupol, ethnic Russians constituted over 40% of the population, making them a significant group despite not being the majority.

What is the economic situation of Donbas described as in the script?

Donbas is described as a classic Rust Belt, with its mines no longer producing coal at an acceptable price, leading to job losses and economic decline.

How did the Russian Federation view the situation in Donbas?

The Russian Federation saw the situation as a defensive war against what they perceived as the Ukrainian government's actions against ethnically Russian people.

What role did economic and ethnocultural factors play in the conflict in Donbas?

Economic decline and ethnocultural tensions were key factors that made it easier for the Russian Federation to destabilize the situation in Donbas.

What was the claim about the Russian language in Ukraine?

The claim was that the Russian language was not persecuted in Ukraine, and it was common to hear Russian spoken in both Donbas and Crimea.

How did the presence of key figures with Moscow connections influence the situation in Donbas?

Key figures with connections to the Russian government and intelligence structures played significant roles in the early stages of the conflict in Donbas.

What is the argument made by the Russian Federation regarding the war in Donbas?

The Russian Federation argues that the war is a defensive measure to protect ethnically Russian people from actions by the Ukrainian government.

What is the reality of the Russian language's presence in Donbas and Crimea?

In reality, the Russian language is widely spoken and there is no significant persecution of Russian speakers in Donbas or Crimea.