55. Ideas & Empathy: How to Design and Communicate with Others in Mind

Summary

In this episode of 'Think Fast Talk Smart,' Matt Abrahams interviews Sarah Stein Greenberg, Executive Director of Stanford's d.school, on design thinking. They discuss how design thinking can enhance creativity and problem-solving in various industries. Greenberg emphasizes the importance of widening one's lens to understand different perspectives and the significance of introspection and reflection in the design process. She shares practical tools and activities from her book 'Creative Acts for Curious People' to foster creativity and effective communication.

Takeaways

• 🎓 Stanford Continuing Studies offers over 140 online courses to enhance personal and professional growth.
• 📚 Listeners of 'Think Fast Talk Smart' can get a 15% discount on courses using the code 'think 15'.
• 🤔 Design thinking is a process that extends beyond aesthetics to designing experiences, services, and systems.
• 🌟 Sarah Stein Greenberg, Executive Director of the d.school at Stanford, authored 'Creative Acts for Curious People', focusing on unconventional thinking and leadership.
• 💡 Design thinking is a vocabulary and set of practices applicable across disciplines to improve services and products.
• 🔎 'Widening your lens' is a concept in design thinking that encourages considering different perspectives to enhance creativity and relevance.
• 🤝 Human-centered design emphasizes creating for others, not just for oneself, which is crucial for effective communication.
• 🧘‍♀️ Introspection and reflection are integral to the design process, aiding in learning and improvement.
• 🗣️ Effective communication involves pausing more to allow for better understanding and connection with the audience.
• 📈 Phoebe Robinson is admired for her creative use of language, making her a standout communicator.
• 📊 Successful communication relies on passion for the topic, simplicity in content delivery, and effective visual aids.

Q & A

What is the main focus of the D school at Stanford?

The D school, or Hasso Plattner Institute of Design at Stanford, helps students and executives learn design thinking skills, which involve using creativity to solve complex problems and improve products, services, and systems.

How does Sarah Stein Greenberg define design thinking?

Sarah Stein Greenberg defines design thinking as a way of intentionally designing products, services, and experiences that go beyond aesthetics to solve real-world problems. It involves understanding needs, developing strong points of view, and applying creative problem-solving approaches.

How can design thinking be applied beyond aesthetics?

Design thinking can be applied to various domains, such as improving service delivery, reducing costs, and reimagining complex systems like substitute teaching in the U.S. It encourages creative problem-solving across industries and sectors.

What does 'widening your lens' mean in the context of design thinking?

'Widening your lens' refers to broadening your perspective to understand how others experience a product, service, or system. It involves stepping outside your personal point of view to consider other people's needs and potential long-term consequences.

How does Sarah suggest overcoming the 'curse of knowledge' in communication?

Sarah suggests overcoming the 'curse of knowledge' by shifting your focus to others’ perspectives, getting out of your own way, and using design thinking principles to stay creative and relevant in communication.

What reflection techniques does Sarah recommend for improving the design process?

Sarah recommends reflection techniques like 'What, So What, Now What' to dissect experiences and learn from them. Another group technique she mentions is 'I Like, I Wish, How To,' which allows teams to reflect on their experiences non-judgmentally.

Why is it important to practice self-reflection during the design process?

Self-reflection is important in the design process because it allows individuals to learn from their experiences, identify areas for improvement, and ensure that their assumptions and biases don't overly influence the outcomes.

What warm-up activities does Sarah use in meetings, and why?

Sarah uses warm-up activities at the start of meetings to set the right tone and rehearse behaviors that will be needed for the work. These activities build trust, encourage creative thinking, and prepare participants for effective collaboration.

What is the best communication advice Sarah has received?

The best communication advice Sarah has received is to 'pause more.' She believes that taking moments of silence helps her slow down, give space for others to process, and observe details that might otherwise be missed.

What are the first three ingredients of successful communication, according to Sarah?

The first three ingredients of successful communication, according to Sarah, are passion for the content, simplicity in presentation, and using visuals to bring ideas to life.

Outlines

00:00

🎓 Stanford Continuing Studies and Design Thinking

The introduction highlights the sponsorship from Stanford Continuing Studies, offering over 140 online courses this spring in various fields like business, leadership, communication, and data science. A 15% discount is available for Think Fast Talk Smart listeners using the code THINK15 for the spring quarter. Matt Abrahams introduces the episode, sharing an anecdote from his time at Lucasfilm, emphasizing the difficulty of predictable creativity across industries. He welcomes Sarah Stein Greenberg, Executive Director of Stanford's D School, to discuss how design thinking addresses this challenge.

05:00

💡 What is Design Thinking?

Sarah Stein Greenberg explains the broader concept of design, moving beyond aesthetics to encompass the design of experiences, services, and systems. She highlights how design thinking is not limited to visual aspects but can be used to improve complex systems, citing examples such as the redesign of substitute teaching in the U.S. Design thinking includes skills and mindsets that help create better products and services, which can apply across personal, professional, and societal contexts.

10:01

🔍 Widening the Lens in Design Thinking

Sarah discusses the concept of widening one's lens, using her photography background as a metaphor. She emphasizes the importance of having a strong point of view while recognizing it's just one perspective. In design, it's crucial to consider how others will experience a product or service, and think about long-term impacts. Widening the lens helps anticipate unintended consequences and is a key principle of human-centered design, which encourages focusing on the needs of others rather than oneself.

15:04

📚 Overcoming the Curse of Knowledge

The conversation shifts to the ‘curse of knowledge,’ where knowing too much leads to miscommunication. Matt highlights how Sarah’s book encourages widening perspectives to combat this. Sarah emphasizes how design thinking requires designers to focus on others' needs, set aside biases, and think beyond their personal views. She notes the importance of reflection and self-learning in design, discussing tools that aid this process, such as structured reflection frameworks like 'what, so what, now what' for deeper insights.

🔄 Reflection Tools in Design Thinking

Sarah explains the importance of reflection in the design process, framing it as a form of learning. She introduces tools such as ‘what, so what, now what’ to help students analyze experiences in a structured way. Another tool she highlights is ‘I like, I wish, how to,’ used in group settings to gather feedback constructively. These practices help individuals and teams reflect on their work in a non-judgmental way, fostering continuous improvement and deeper understanding.

🏗 Structuring Meetings for Success

Sarah shares a key leadership practice: using the first few minutes of meetings to set the tone. She avoids traditional icebreakers and instead uses activities that rehearse behaviors relevant to the meeting’s goals, like trust-building exercises for teams making decisions. Matching the warm-up to the work at hand enhances focus and productivity. Sarah emphasizes the transparency in explaining why a specific warm-up was chosen, helping participants understand its relevance to the session’s objectives.

⏸ The Power of Pausing in Communication

In response to Matt's three questions, Sarah first advises communicators to 'pause more.' She shares how excitement often speeds up her speech, but taking pauses allows for better clarity and gives the audience time to absorb the information. Pauses also create opportunities for observation and deeper thinking. By slowing down, communicators can enhance the effectiveness of their message and create space for more meaningful engagement with their audience.

🎤 Communicator to Admire: Phoebe Robinson

Sarah admires comedian and TV host Phoebe Robinson for her creative use of language, including her talent for inventing words that still make perfect sense to the audience. Sarah praises Robinson’s ability to use humor and satire, making her communication style unique and memorable. She expresses a desire to understand Robinson’s thought process and how she makes deliberate choices in her language that enhance her communication.

🍽 Recipe for Effective Communication

When asked about the ingredients for successful communication, Sarah emphasizes three elements: passion for the subject, simplicity in distilling content, and the use of visuals to bring ideas to life. She points out the need to avoid overloading slides with too much text and instead focus on visual aids that complement the spoken message. Her approach is about making the content engaging, clear, and visually appealing to enhance audience understanding and connection.

Keywords

💡Design Thinking

Design thinking is a problem-solving approach that encourages empathy for the end user, iteration, and experimentation. It is not just about aesthetics but also about creating experiences, services, and systems that are better and more efficient. In the script, Sarah Stein Greenberg explains how design thinking can be applied to complex problems, such as redesigning substitute teaching in the United States, showcasing its application beyond traditional design fields.

💡Stanford Continuing Studies

Stanford Continuing Studies is a program offering a variety of courses for personal and professional development. It is mentioned in the script as a supporter of the podcast, offering courses in business, leadership, and communication, among others. The script mentions a 15% discount for the podcast's audience, indicating a partnership and a benefit for listeners.

💡Hosho Plattner Institute of Design

The Hosho Plattner Institute of Design, commonly referred to as the d.school, is an institution at Stanford University that focuses on design thinking. In the script, Sarah Stein Greenberg, the Executive Director, discusses the institute's role in teaching design thinking skills to students and executives, emphasizing its interdisciplinary approach to problem-solving.

💡Creative Acts for Curious People

This is a book authored by Sarah Stein Greenberg, as mentioned in the script. The book is about thinking, creating, and leading in unconventional ways, which aligns with the principles of design thinking. It serves as a resource for those looking to apply creativity and design thinking in their personal and professional lives.

💡Human-Centered Design

Human-centered design is a concept that emphasizes designing with the end user in mind. It is highlighted in the script as a core idea where Sarah discusses the importance of understanding others' experiences and needs. This approach is crucial in design thinking, as it helps create products and services that are more relevant and effective for the users.

💡Curse of Knowledge

The curse of knowledge refers to the difficulty of a person with expertise in a subject to understand the perspective of someone who is unfamiliar with the subject. In the script, it is mentioned in the context of communication, where knowing too much can lead to miscommunication. Design thinking and widening one's lens can help overcome this challenge.

💡Widening Your Lens

Widening your lens is a concept discussed by Sarah in the script, which involves expanding one's perspective to consider different viewpoints and potential outcomes. It is a way to combat the curse of knowledge and to enhance creativity by considering how others might experience a product or service.

💡Introspection

Introspection is the act of self-reflection, which is mentioned in the script as an important part of the design process. It involves looking inward to understand one's own thoughts, feelings, and motivations, which can lead to better decision-making and creativity. Sarah discusses tools and techniques for introspection, such as 'what so what now what', to help individuals learn from their experiences.

💡Warm-Up Activities

Warm-up activities are exercises done at the beginning of a meeting or session to set the tone and prepare participants for the work ahead. Sarah mentions in the script that these activities should not just be for breaking the ice but should also rehearse the behaviors needed for the task at hand, such as building trust or generating ideas.

💡Pause More

As part of the best communication advice, 'pause more' is suggested by Sarah in the script. Pausing is important in communication as it allows the speaker to gather thoughts and the audience to process information. It can improve the clarity and impact of the message, as well as provide moments of silence that can be powerful in a presentation.

💡I Like I Wish How To

This is a group reflection practice mentioned in the script, used to provide feedback in a non-judgmental way. It involves expressing what one liked, what one wishes for, and suggestions for improvement. This practice is used at the d.school to foster open and constructive dialogue about experiences, helping to enhance future outcomes.

Highlights

Stanford Continuing Studies offers over 140 online courses to enhance personal and professional life.

Think fast talk smart listeners get a 15% discount with the code THINK15 on courses.

Design thinking can help reliably and predictably be creative, balancing creativity and reliability.

Design thinking is not just about aesthetics but also about designing experiences, services, and systems.

Design thinking is a vocabulary that helps people from different disciplines improve services and products.

Widening your lens is a core idea in human-centered design to understand others' experiences.

Shifting perspective and widening your lens helps in designing for others' needs.

Design thinking involves introspection and reflection, which are vital for learning and improvement.

The 'What? So what? Now what?' framework is a powerful tool for reflection and self-learning.

The 'I like, I wish, How to...' practice is useful for group reflection and improvement.

Design thinking principles can be applied to many processes and systems, including complex problems.

Understanding that design is other-focused helps combat the curse of knowledge and enhances creativity.

Getting out of your own way is crucial for effective design and communication.

Warm-up activities should match the work at hand and help rehearse desired behaviors.

Pause more is the best communication advice for effective pausing and audience engagement.

Phoebe Robinson is admired for her facility with language and her creative communication style.

The first three ingredients for successful communication are caring about the topic, simplicity, and visual aids.

Transcripts

Support for Think Fast Talk Smart the podcast comes in part

from stanford continuing studies.

Stanford Continuing Studies is offering more than 140 online courses

this spring to enhance your personal and professional life.

Choose from courses in business, leadership, communication,

tech in data science and many more.

Think fast talk smart list for

a 15% tuition disc 15 when using the code think 15.

This promotion is available for the spring quarter only.

Registration is now open.

Classes begin soon, learn more at continuing studies.stanford.edu.

[MUSIC]

>> Way back in graduate school,

I had an amazing internship at George Lucas's Lucasfilm.

The CEO at the time once talked to us about how hard it was to reliably and

predictably be creative.

These concepts are often antithetical to each other and

they apply across different industries.

Today we will explore how design thinking can help with this challenge.

I'm Matt Abrahams and

I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

I am super excited today to speak with Sarah Stein Greenberg,

who is the Executive Director of the Hosho Plattner Institute of Design at

Stanford University, known more simply as the D school.

While leading this incredibly talented and creative organization,

Sarah found time to author an awesome book called creative acts for curious people.

How to think, create and lead in unconventional ways.

Welcome, Sarah.

Thanks for joining me.

I am so excited for our conversation today.

>> Matt thank you so much I'm excited to be here and if you could see my face right

now you'd have a huge smile on it because I'm very excited for our conversation.

>> Well I've got a big smile too, so let's get started.

The D school is all about helping students and

executives learn design thinking skills >> For

those who aren't familiar with design thinking, can you define what it is?

And how it can help us personally as well as professionally?

>> I'm happy to start there.

So many people have this idea of design, that is really about the kind

of visual aspects of the world around us like the aesthetic qualities, or

maybe the way that your room feels after you rearrange the furniture, right?

And those are definitely aspects of design and design has through its long

history really been kind of poking its nose into lots of different places.

And what I mean by that is, those same ways that you can think about being

intentional about what your room feels like or how your phone is designed,

the way in which you know a glass fits in your hand perfectly.

Those same ideas can actually be extrapolated and

used to design experiences and services and even systems.

And so we're in an era now where design is being used not just for

all of those aesthetic purposes, but also to think about what should be created.

How do we actually deliver services that are better for

the people who are accessing them or less expensive?

Thinking about how do we actually like redesign a complex system?.

For example, one of our fellows a few years ago was working on redesigning

the way in which substitute teaching happens in the United States, like really

interesting, complex multivariable kinds of projects and problems.

And so design thinking is kind of the vocabulary that sits underneath that,

right?

It's a way that people who may have a formal design training or

may come from lots of different disciplines can start to use the same sets

of practices both the skills and

the mindsets of design to improve those services, improve those products.

And even think really creatively about like what the future of your business

could look like or how you might tackle a large social system.

>> Wow, it sounds like the design thinking principles can be applied to so

many different processes and systems.

And in what you just described it really underlies that there's a science to it.

It's creative and it's artful but there's also a science to it and

I personally have been exposed to it and find it fascinating for

how we can design experiences for people.

So thank you for sharing that.

We recently spoke with GSB professor Chip Heath about the curse of knowledge,

knowing too much about what we do and share and how it can lead to

miscommunication and a lack of connection with those that we're communicating with.

Your focus in your book on widening our lens strikes me as a way to combat that

course of knowledge and be more creative and relevant at the same time.

Can you tell us a bit more about what you mean by widening our lens and

how can we actually do that.

>> Sure, widening your lens.

I use that framing just because as somebody who's a photographer, I think

a lot about how your perspective is really altered by not just the equipment that

you're using, but where you're standing in relation to the subject or

the scene that you're trying to capture.

And in design you want to have a strong point of view about what you're making,

you want to to understand the needs, you want to to understand the context and then

you want to say like well I think that it's going to work best if and then you

really establish that strong point of view is one of those foundational principles.

But one of the things you have to recognize is that you don't have the view,

you have a point of view, right?

>> Right.

>> And really understanding like well, how is someone else going to experience this

product or service that I'm developing?

Or what if I think about what the effect of launching this thing might be a few

generations into the future?

And so there are all different ways to stretch your perspective.

Both to be thinking about how could this be better designed,

how could it be more effective?

How could it be more relevant for more people and even thinking about, what

are some of the potentially unintended consequences that could happen as I create

this fantastic popular successful piece of work, whatever it is that you're doing.

So widening your lens is one of those core ideas in human centered design.

In that very often you are not designing for yourself.

>> Yeah. >> And you kind of have to get out of your

own way to effectively design with others needs in mind.

And so that idea of shifting your perspective,

widening your aperture your lens, is just critically important.

And there are lots of ways to do that.

And some of the practices in creative acts are great ways to start their

practices around how do you have a very open ended interview interaction,

how do you try to shadow someone for a day >> I heard you say two things that I think

are absolutely critical to getting out of that curse of knowledge and

how design thinking and being creative can help.

And one is understanding that it is other focused you talked about human

centered design.

So you're not designing for yourself you're designing for others.

When you communicate you're not communicating for

yourself you're communicating for others.

So first taking that perspective and then the second thing you said which is so

important is to get out of your own way that we actually make it more difficult

for ourselves and it sounds like some of the activities in your book and that

are practiced at the D school can really help people with both parts of that.

focusing in the right place and then getting out of our own way.

Did I get that right?

>> Yeah that's exactly right.

And we all bring our own life experience, our own biases our own opinions and

perspectives and so you often need a way similar to how we talk about deferring

judgment when you're trying to generate new ideas.

You actually need to set aside those assumptions that you have, those biases,

those perspectives that you have, to make sure they are not too influential in your

interpretation or understanding of what the needs are.

>> Wherever I think about what we've talked about so far,

part of the design process really involves introspection and reflection.

I'm curious if you can articulate why this is so important.

And what are some of the specific tools and

techniques that you recommend to help people do this type of self learning?

>> Well, it's interesting that you just framed up this idea of self learning,

because I often think about design as a process of learning in general.

So when you're starting out to design something new whether

it's reimagining the substitute teaching ecosystem,

like I mentioned our former fellow Joe Violet did, or something much more

concrete and physical, you're embarking on a journey of learning, right?

You are starting out with less understanding and information and insight.

>> And fewer ideas about where you're going to land the thing that you're

going to create, then you will ultimately find yourself with.

And just like any other learning process, understanding what's going well and

what's not going well and what could be improved.

That is a vital part of really having ownership over that process.

So we do a lot of work with our students and other learners around tools for

reflection, thinking about, what just happened and

was it as productive as effective as powerful as we hoped that it was?

What can be improved?

And maybe even then some bigger picture questions.

So I'll give you two examples of particular practices that we use.

One is an individual practice which is called what so what now it.

Letizia burritos company RL and some of her colleagues created and

what they found is that when they ask students to just kind of generically

reflect in an open ended way on how class went or what they learned or

what a particular process let's say they were teaching prototyping that day.

Okay, how did that go, the students come up with some interesting

things >> But when they give them a particular

framework like what so what now what, which is simply the idea that you separate

you disaggregate and distinguish between those three different buckets.

So what just happened?

Name all the details.

What did it smell like?

What was the feeling that you had?

Specifically what happened?

And then, so what, which is like, well, what were the implications?

What did that lead to?

What happened as a result?

And now what, which is like, well, what does that mean?

What does that suggest for the future?

How do you feel about that?

Those bigger introspective questions.

With that particular rubric the reflections that the students do are of

much higher caliber and

much more powerful as a learning tool as a self learning tool as you just said.

So that's one great example of a practice on the personal level.

And then one of my favorites from this collection is called I like I wish how to.

And that is a practice that we've been using at the D school from the very

beginning.

And it really is wonderful as a group to go through experience together.

That could be a day of class that could be a workshop that could be.

A tough year at your company and do a group reflection using those prompts.

I like, I wish and how to.

And that is a non-judgmental or

less judgmental way to still be able to say like, hey, here's what went well.

Here's what I wish for.

And here's some other ideas that are starting to come up about what we could do

to change things or improve things.

>> Well, I think we have bingo now, because anybody who knows me and

listens to this podcast knows that, what so, what now, what is a mantra that I sing

the praises for all the time and I love how you apply it.

In terms of self learning in terms of feedback and introspection and

having tools as you've discussed to help us do that is really really helpful.

Because for many of us it's really hard to take the time to do that reflection and

having specific tools can help.

In thinking back to all of the various activities and techniques in your book,

can you identify one that has really helped you personally?

>> Yeah I mentioned I like I wish which has been quite important for

me the category that I'll share that I think has been really useful for

me particularly in a leadership role.

To remember to practice consistently,

is around using those first few minutes of any meeting or work session,

to set the right tone and to get people already starting to practice some

of the behaviors that you want to see come out in the work to be done.

>> Through some kind of warm up activity.

And I have kind of a strong point of view that like icebreakers are fine, but

usually what I'm doing is not trying to just get people to break the ice and

know each other a little bit.

I'm actually wanting people to start to rehearse the same behavior

that we need to then practice as a group.

So the activities that are around.

Building trust with someone.

That's a wonderful warm up to do if you're going to have a group then

start to launch an interviewing process or

even if you're just going to try to make a hard decision, right?

That's a really good time to use that as a team.

Or the activity that's around coming up with lots of metaphors and similes for

complex problems or topics.

That is a great warm up to use when you are launching a storytelling session or

you are trying to figure out how you're going to present your really cool but

kind of esoteric new idea to a group of people.

So I like to really match the nature of the warm up with the work at hand.

And if I'm the one who's leading the class or the workshop,

I'll then be very transparent for folks.

Hey, the reason we started with this is because it's going to lead right into what

we're doing today as a group.

And I find that that helps people get like right into the right mindset and

the right kind of skill set for the work at hand.

>> I find that so refreshing because so many people do icebreakers just for

the sake of doing an icebreaker in this notion that the activity you initiate

with can actually serve as a signpost for what's to come or get people to rehearse

and practice skills that you'll be developing, I think is really powerful.

And I encourage everybody to think about when you initiate a meeting a presentation

any kind of collaboration?

How can you start with some kind of activity that gets people focused and

engaged but also begins working on the skills you're trying to build?

I really like that idea and

will immediately begin applying it in the work I do.

Before we end I'd like to ask you the same three questions I asked everyone who joins

me, are you up for that?

>> Yes.

>> Excellent. Alright.

Here we go. Question one.

If you were to capture the best communication advice you ever received

as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be?

>> Immediately what comes to minds, is just a slide that says pause more.

>> Tell me more about that.

I'm going to take a pause before you answer though.

Okay, go ahead.

Tell me more.

>> I love talking about this topic.

I love talking about this material.

When I get excited about something I just get on a roll and

often string things together that deserve more breathing room.

And as a communicator, I am working on

trying to slow down and pause more, right?

silence is such a powerful tool in multiple dimensions,

whether it's giving someone else the chance for their brain to catch up,

whether it's for you to slow down and then be able to observe new things and

take in detail in a way that you weren't previously.

So I think that my excitement and

enthusiasm sometimes just revs up the speed and the pace at which I'm talking.

And really, just slowing down and pausing occasionally can be so helpful.

>> Not only does it help you think and formulate, but

it also helps the audience as well.

And I am in your camp, when I get excited, I talk more than less.

Let me ask question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?

>> The first person who jumps to mind right now is Phoebe Robinson,

who is a comedian and a TV host.

And she's now running a book imprint, publishing imprint.

I feel like she just has this incredible facility with language, and she's

constantly inventing words, and yet you completely understand what she's saying.

And somehow it's like so

much funnier because it's in this sort of like language of her own invention.

And it's really body and satirical and it's just just very, very funny.

And I suspect that she is making so many specific decisions

about her language choice and her created words.

And I'd love to just get a peek inside her brain and

understand more about how she thinks about these things.

>> What a true compliment, when you want to really understand

somebody's thought process that leads them to their communication.

Let me ask the final question.

What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

>> Maybe the most important ingredient is caring about the topic.

I think the second one for me is about

distilling the content into its barest form.

And then for me, I'm often communicating in a visual medium, as are so many people.

So I think I immediately just leap to thinking about designing a keynote or

a PowerPoint presentation.

Which so many people have, as a human race, we have wasted so

much time trying to read size eight fonts on [LAUGH] a slide.

It's just so sad.

So when I'm thinking about using visuals to amplify the presentation I'm giving or

the ideas I'm trying to share, I think about what I'm excited about,

my passion or commitment to the material.

I mean, and this is true even if I'm giving a budget report in the dean's

office, I want to see some student faces on that.

I want to always be reminded of the purpose behind the work that we're doing.

And then think about the simplest form that I can use,

and the fewest words, and how much of it can become visual.

So let me go back and

try to boil that down into three [LAUGH] simple ingredients.

I think it's about interest and passion for the content,

simplicity, and bringing things to life in a visual way.

>> I think those are three very powerful ingredients and

can be very helpful for all the types of communication that we do.

Well, Sarah, I have to thank you so much.

Your ideas are super practical, super helpful, and really, really fun.

I've enjoyed our conversation.

I appreciate your insights into design, creativity, and communication.

And I encourage everyone to get Sarah's book, Creative Acts for Curious People.

And then you have to immediately read it and

apply these incredibly useful lessons and activities.

Thank you for joining us and thank you for sharing.

>> My pleasure.

Thank you so much for having me, Matt.

[MUSIC]

>> Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast Talk Smart,

the podcast.

Produced by Stanford University's Graduate School of Business.

For more information and episodes, visit gsb.stanford.edu.

Or subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts.

Finally, find us on social media @Stanford.GSB