FLAT VS. CONICAL Burrs Discussion with coffee grinder company Kafatek!

Summary

In this video, the hosts discuss the nuances of flat and conical burr grinders for coffee, challenging the traditional belief that flat burrs are best for light roasts and pour-over, while conicals are suited for dark roasts and espresso. They explore how modern grinder designs blur these lines, offering clarity and extraction efficiency across both types. The conversation delves into the technical aspects of grinder design, like surface area, particle size distribution, and the impact of grind speed and alignment on coffee flavor. The hosts conclude that while there are still differences, the gap between flat and conical grinders has narrowed, and the choice often comes down to personal preference, workflow, and the precision of the grinder.

Takeaways

• 😀 The debate between flat and conical bur grinders has evolved, with modern designs capable of handling both light and dark roasts effectively.
• 🔍 Flat bur grinders are often recommended for light roast coffees and pour-over methods due to their clarity and extraction capabilities.
• 🌟 Conical bur grinders are traditionally associated with dark roasts and espresso, offering a more blended flavor profile with less clarity.
• 🛠️ Surface area and grind size are critical factors in grinder performance, with conical burs potentially producing more fines due to the coffee's rolling action.
• ⏱️ The speed of coffee grinding and the time coffee spends in the bur affect the particle size distribution, which differs between flat and conical designs.
• 🛠️ Design intricacies such as the number of teeth and their aggressiveness influence the grinding speed and, consequently, the flavor extraction.
• 💰 Flat bur grinders tend to be more expensive due to the complexity of their design and manufacturing process.
• 🤔 The choice between flat and conical bur grinders may come down to personal preference and workflow, rather than a significant difference in coffee quality.
• 🔄 The precision of the grinder is paramount, with alignment being particularly important for flat burs to ensure consistent grind size.
• 🌿 The quality of coffee and water used is ultimately more critical to the final taste than the type of grinder, emphasizing the importance of using high-quality ingredients.

Q & A

What is the main difference between flat and conical burrs in coffee grinders?

Flat burrs consist of two flat cutting discs, while conical burrs have a conical shape with an outer burr and the coffee flows from top to bottom. The conical burr can either spin or have a stationary cone with a spinning outer burr.

What is the traditional recommendation regarding flat and conical burrs for different types of coffee roasts?

Traditionally, flat burrs were recommended for light roast coffee and pour-over brewing, while conical burrs were suggested for dark roast and espresso due to their ability to handle the oils and tars better.

How has the perception of flat and conical burrs changed in recent times?

The perception has evolved as modern burr designs have emerged that can perform well with both light and dark roasts. The distinction between what flat and conical burrs are 'intended' to do has become less clear, as both types can now achieve excellent results across a range of roasts.

What are the general flavor profiles associated with flat and conical burrs?

Flat burrs are often associated with clarity and sharp, distinct flavor peaks, while conical burrs tend to produce a more blended and smoother flavor profile.

How does the surface area of burrs affect the grinding process?

The surface area of burrs influences the speed of grinding and the particle size distribution. Larger burrs, like conical ones, can lead to more fines due to the coffee rolling around more before exiting.

Why are conical burrs considered easier to use in coffee grinders?

Conical burrs are easier to use because they generally require less preparation work for the coffee puck. They allow for skipping the distribution step, making it simpler to achieve a good tamp and extraction.

What challenges did the designer face when creating flat and conical burrs?

Designing flat burrs was more challenging due to the need for precise alignment and parallelism between the burrs to control grind size. Conical burrs, on the other hand, focus more on concentric alignment, which is less critical for performance.

Why might conical burrs produce more static in ground coffee?

Conical burrs may produce more static due to the rubbing action of the coffee as it goes through the burr. The coffee spends more time in the burr, which can lead to increased static buildup compared to flat burrs.

How important is the precision of a grinder when using flat or conical burrs?

The precision of the grinder is crucial as it affects the grind size and consistency. For flat burrs, the alignment and parallelism are critical, while for conical burrs, concentric alignment is more important.

What is the impact of grinder design on the cost of flat versus conical burrs?

Flat burrs generally cost more to produce due to the additional steps required for their manufacturing, which is why flat burr grinders tend to be more expensive than conical ones.

What factors should one consider when choosing between a flat and conical burr grinder today?

Today, the choice between flat and conical burrs is less about roast type and more about personal preference, workflow, and the specific characteristics of the grinder, such as precision and ease of use.

Outlines

00:00

😀 Introduction to Flat vs. Conical Burr Grinders

The video script begins with a discussion on the differences between flat and conical burr grinders in the context of coffee preparation. The speaker introduces the topic by addressing the common question of whether to purchase a flat or conical burr grinder. The script mentions that while traditionally, flat burrs were recommended for light roasts and pourovers, and conical burrs for dark roasts and espresso, modern burr designs have blurred these distinctions. The conversation aims to explore the broader differences and specific design elements of each type of grinder, with an emphasis on their impact on coffee flavor and extraction.

05:01

🔍 Detailed Comparison of Flat and Conical Burrs

In this paragraph, the script delves deeper into the technical aspects of flat and conical burrs. It discusses the physical differences in burr design, such as the flat cutting discs of flat burrs versus the conical shape of conical burrs. The conversation touches on the impact of burr design on coffee flow and extraction, with a focus on how the coffee grinds interact with the burr surfaces. The script also addresses the idea that modern burr designs have made it possible for both flat and conical burrs to perform well with different roasts, challenging traditional recommendations. Additionally, the discussion includes the importance of surface area, grind size, and the coffee's time spent within the burr, which affects the particle size distribution and, consequently, the flavor profile of the coffee.

10:02

🛠️ Design Challenges and Practical Considerations

The script continues with a focus on the design challenges faced when creating flat and conical burrs. It highlights that flat burrs are generally more difficult to design due to the need for precise alignment and parallelism, which is crucial for consistent grind sizes. In contrast, conical burrs are easier to use and require less stringent alignment, making them more user-friendly. The discussion also covers the practical aspects of grinder use, such as the ease of preparing a coffee puck with conical burrs versus the potential need for additional steps with flat burrs. The conversation suggests that while there are still differences in the performance of flat and conical burrs, these differences may be less significant in modern high-end grinders, and personal preference plays a significant role in grinder choice.

15:03

💬 Final Thoughts on Burr Grinder Selection

The final paragraph wraps up the discussion by emphasizing the importance of precision in grinders, regardless of burr type. It points out that the precision of the grinder, rather than the burr type alone, is critical for achieving the desired grind size and consistency. The script suggests that the choice between flat and conical burrs may come down to personal preference, workflow, and specific brewing goals. It also acknowledges that while there are measurable differences in grind profiles and extraction yields between flat and conical burrs, these differences may not be as pronounced or as important as once thought. The conversation concludes with the idea that with high-quality grinders, whether flat or conical, it is possible to make great coffee, and the ultimate factors for a good cup of coffee are the quality of the coffee beans and water used.

Keywords

💡Flat Burr Grinder

A flat burr grinder is a type of coffee grinder that uses two flat, circular discs to grind coffee beans. These grinders are known for their consistency and ability to produce a wide range of grind sizes, which is crucial for different brewing methods. In the script, the discussion revolves around the choice between flat and conical burr grinders, with flat burr grinders often recommended for light roast coffee and pour-over brewing due to their ability to provide clarity in the coffee's flavor profile.

💡Conical Burr Grinder

A conical burr grinder features a conical-shaped burr that grinds coffee beans as they pass through it. This type of grinder is highlighted in the script for its ability to handle a variety of roasts, including dark roasts, which were traditionally thought to be better suited for conical grinders. The script challenges this notion, suggesting that modern conical designs can also perform well with light roasts, offering a more blended and possibly sharper flavor profile.

💡Light Roast

Light roast refers to coffee beans that have been roasted for a short time, resulting in a lighter color and a more acidic, fruity flavor profile. The script suggests that flat burr grinders are often preferred for light roast coffee due to their ability to extract the delicate flavors without overpowering the coffee, which aligns with the broader discussion on the grinder types and their impact on coffee flavor.

💡Dark Roast

Dark roast coffee beans are roasted for a longer time, giving them a darker color and a stronger, more robust flavor. The script discusses how conical burr grinders were traditionally the choice for dark roasts and espresso, as they can handle the oils and produce a smoother, less acidic grind. However, it also points out that modern grinder designs have blurred these lines, with some flat burr grinders performing well with dark roasts.

💡Particle Size Distribution

Particle size distribution (PSD) refers to the range of particle sizes in a ground coffee, which affects the extraction and flavor of the coffee. The script mentions that conical burr grinders can produce more fines due to the coffee's longer contact time with the burrs, which can influence the extraction yield and flavor. This concept is central to understanding how different grinder designs impact the brewing process.

💡Extraction Yield

Extraction yield measures the percentage of soluble coffee compounds extracted from the coffee grounds during brewing. The script notes that achieving high extraction yields, such as 26-27%, is more challenging with conical burr grinders compared to flat burr grinders. This is an important consideration for those seeking to optimize the flavor and strength of their brewed coffee.

💡Surface Area

The surface area of the burrs in a grinder affects the speed and efficiency of the grinding process. The script discusses how conical burrs with a larger surface area can grind coffee more quickly, which can influence the grind size and consistency. This is an important factor in the design and performance of coffee grinders.

💡Precision

Precision in a grinder refers to the accuracy and consistency of the grind size it produces. The script emphasizes the importance of precision, particularly with flat burr grinders, where the alignment and parallelism of the burrs are critical for achieving a consistent grind. Precision is essential for ensuring that the coffee grounds extract evenly, leading to a balanced cup of coffee.

💡Workflow

Workflow in the context of the script refers to the ease and efficiency of using a particular grinder in a coffee preparation routine. The discussion points out that conical burr grinders often have a simpler workflow, requiring less preparation such as the need for a separate distribution of grounds, making them more user-friendly for certain brewing methods.

💡Tolerances

Tolerances refer to the allowable limits of variation in the dimensions of a grinder's components, which can affect performance. The script mentions that when using flat burrs in different grinder housings, one must consider the tolerances and alignment of the burr carrier to ensure optimal performance. This highlights the importance of grinder design and construction in achieving the best grinding results.

Highlights

Discussion on choosing between flat and conical bur grinders.

Traditional advice on flat burs for light roast and pourover, conical for dark roast and espresso.

Modern grinder designs can perform tasks traditionally associated with the opposite bur type.

Flat burs provide clarity and great extractions, while conicals offer more blended flavors.

Conical burs are easier to use for puck preparation, often requiring less work.

Surface area and particle size distribution are key factors in bur design.

Conical burs can produce more fines due to the coffee's rolling action.

Designing flat burs is more challenging due to the need for precision and alignment.

Conical burs have a larger sweet spot and are generally easier to use.

The debate between flat and conical is less significant with modern grinders.

Workflow is a significant differentiator between flat and conical burs.

Flat burs tend to generate more static due to the coffee's rubbing action.

High-end grinders show differences in grind profile, but the flavor gap has narrowed.

Extraction yields can be higher with flat burs, but it doesn't always equate to better taste.

The precision of the grinder is crucial, especially for flat burs where alignment is key.

Conical burs focus on concentric alignment, which is less critical than flat bur alignment.

The choice between flat and conical burs often comes down to personal preference and workflow.

Good water and coffee are more critical to the final taste than the type of bur.

Transcripts

okay we are at cfch and let's kind of

talk a little bit about flat and conical

flats and conical everybody always ask

question uh do I buy the flat bur

grinder do I buy the conle bur grinder

and this is more of like a broader level

video where we're talking about these

from from like a high level and we we'll

kind of have Dennis go you know nerd out

and talk about you know very specific

things with design and then we can also

talk about you know if you were looking

at picking up a monolith MH you why

should you get the flat and why should

the conle you have different uh Grinders

but otherwise let's kind of start with

the the broader overview of flat versus

conical obviously first of all these

Burrs look very different very different

so with a flat bur you

have flat cutting flat cutting two discs

that are flat and then with a cicle you

have the cone yes and then you have the

outer bur and the coffee pretty much

flows from top to bottom you usually the

cone will spin but there are designs

where the outer bu spins instead and The

Cone is stationary okay and that's

pretty much you know on the surface of

it that's it and I know for many many

years a lot of people always talk about

if you're doing light roast and you're

doing pourover get flats and if you're

doing dark roast and espresso get

conical but I think nowadays you we have

found many different bird designs that

can kind of do uh the Opposites right

you have Conor I that can do light roast

really well you have flats that can do

dark roast really well so it's kind of

like now it's like okay well what are

what are the actual differences if if

you can design burst to do what things

are you know do what it's not intended

to do right for example so I guess

what's kind of your take on that like

just why would somebody pick a flat

versus a a conle yeah for me like I

often people ask me that and you like

the first thing I say if you are into

the light roasted coffee as espresso get

get the max get the flat burs and reason

being the clarity you're going to have a

lot of clarity you know you're going to

have a great extractions because these

you know the sugar canes they extract

really really well the conicals

especially the shuri cons they extract

very well too but the flavors I feel are

more Blended so you know there are Peaks

you know the flavors are maybe on the

Peaks I would say sharper tasting as

opposed to like a smoother flavors on a

flats and then the

chicles do not be as clear as the flat

yeah so those are like the you know the

general like General differences now

let's talk a let's kind of get a little

more specific right because basically

the first kind of thing I think we can

talk about is surface area or spur size

differences between conical cuz for

example you can have uh well you can

have big conical today so like 71 mm

these are 98 Flats here how are how is

surface area measured or like how's size

like dictated with some of these birs

nowadays yeah it's got like you know the

the one of the things that it does is a

speed like how fast they grind and then

you know but that's controlled by many

factors you know like how many teeth

does the bird has and like the more

teeth the faster it's going to grind

then how aggressive these teeth are so I

think the the time the coffee spends in

this conical bur largely affects that

particle size distribution of the conle

bur and I think because the coffee kind

of rolls over all around before exiting

so the more it goes around and around

before getting out of the bur the more

fines you will get and it's you know

that's different from the flat

bur because the coffee usually will go

faster through these this is where bir

design all this it's like incredibly

convoluted right like how fast does the

coffee go in how fast does it spend in

here and then how fast does it go out of

here and how long does it take to go out

of there and then the surface finish oh

and then yeah and then like

how smooth is the surface so there are a

lot of very specific things to these

with something like chicles what making

small versus large chicles what are the

differences there like why do you end up

with 71 mm versus say 68 or 48 or 38

yeah it's a same like you know kind of

thinking that we had in coffee Community

years ago probably from the Titan

project like a larger bir better taste

so that's you know I was like okay I'm

making a large bir you know like a

larger bir and I think it does taste a

better you know it's like a larger sweet

spot as you say taste it's better easier

to use like the conical bird grinders

are easier to use big yes in the terms

of the puck preparation like you don't

have to do like you can usually skip the

wdt even with the conical B you can just

shake it and Tamp it and it's good to go

yeah yeah you know it's much easier to

use while the flat purs are a little bit

harder and I think that comes down to

that fines like how much how many fines

is is in the you know ground coffee or

when you were designing the shur cones

and shur kins was it harder to design

for conle or was it or flat like what

are flat was much harder flat okay why

is that I it's hard to say I don't know

like the these ones these ones kind of

went easier than this like you know but

that maybe because I did these first you

know so you went through your hundreds

of iterations of and then I was like

okay now I know what I want and I know

how to get this there you know so I know

okay I need these surfaces smooth I want

to polish that you know I want to have

my curved surfaces here M you know stuff

like that so that might be the reason

that went faster I see but like the

conal the shuri cons even have much more

clarity than the traditional con right

yeah and and that's what's the

interesting thing is like you know we

mentioning this at the beginning of the

video this is my example of you can take

this thing that is not actually you know

oh they're not good for light roast but

then you take something like CH con and

you're like oh wait actually these work

really well for light roast you you can

pull fast flowing turbos and you can do

pour over with these and it'll taste

great but it's just kind of interesting

it's like it's it's like does it matter

and nowadays right is like do does the

flat versus conical debate even matter

nowadays right like my my take is it's

less less so of a thing now yeah the Gap

narrowed yeah the Gap is very narrow

like at the end of the day you can make

really great coffee out of both at least

at this level right when we're talking

like these types of birds right really

the biggest difference today still is

something like workflow is that like so

why do the these generate so much more

static it or like these seem Flats seem

to generate so much more static much

more okay I think so I think so too it's

it's just the how coffee

rubs like you know the rubbing action of

the coffee as it goes out you know

creates more static it just creates more

static and I think in the conic because

you get and like we know like if you

have that coffee that a statically if

you just steer it you are helping

dissipate that so in a vave as the

coffee spends time in this conic bur

it's getting getting stirred it's

getting stirred inside too I mean it

happens here too but not to the same

extent extent as in the conic culture I

think see yeah so it's it's just like

you know now

nowadays I'm like I don't know anymore I

can make great coffee on Flats I can

make great coffee on chicles I do think

maybe something it might just be Placebo

now for me I'm like oh if I'm brewing

light roast I need to use the flat

otherwise it won tast as good that's

what I do that's what I do like if I'm

using but on the on the flip note if I'm

using dark roast I want to use con I

mean you can observe this too if you did

psds and if you look at the coffee even

with something like very very high-end

coffee grinders like Mon conle and flat

Max you get them side by side and you

grind you will see differences

profile difference but is it as big as

you know people make it out to be

nowadays I don't think as much yeah no I

think like you know if you were not

trying them side by side like I don't

know like could you be able to pick the

difference like if you wear it like at

your friend's house and you are trying

the conical and then you come back cor

trying to Flat Max yeah you're like I

don't know ah I don't know if you're

going to be able to tell the difference

yeah cuz cuz like hard I I I agree too

cuz like now nowadays at least even the

in the from a coffee perspective like

the coffees have gotten so much better

people are using really good water you

it's like you're going to get great

results from either of them even though

there are physical differences with how

your coffee is being ground and there is

a you know visual difference and

measurable difference between fines and

all that and even an extraction like

that's that's another interesting thing

like we can easily get like 26 27

extraction yields out of the 98s but

that's much harder to get with a conical

Bird yeah and then even if you can

extract this side it doesn't necessarily

taste good no yeah the extraction it

doesn't matter we're trying to clarify

things but we may have made them more

convoluted for you probably but but

that's the thing is like you know when

you're trying to buy these Grinders in

today's landscape I think you know from

as long as they're good right it's it's

hard to go wrong right um I think really

what you should evaluate is like the the

cost right like I think I mean my

understanding is it more expensive to

produce Flats than conical or yes more

steps more steps yeah so like you that's

why you know you generally see the the

flat birg Grinders cost more money cuz

there's more work

and to to do that and then from there

it's like you know if if you if money is

of no constraint then you know pick

which one you like the most yeah right

but that's my take too is like nowadays

today the Gap is so close between these

two unless you are going for very very

specific things like pushing for the

maximum extraction or if you are into

dark cross yeah then I would say get a

conle there's no reason to get a Max

yeah well because you know on the conle

more more fines chocolatier shots right

but you probably don't want that maximum

Clarity 27% extraction yield dark no no

it doesn't taste good yeah you know I

just want to talk about this right like

conal versus flat but from somebody who

actually makes these all day right um is

there anything else you want to add well

the most important thing like on any of

these burds then pretty much comes down

to the Precision of the grinder and the

that is important because like on the

flat burs to control the the grind size

it's pretty much how these birds come

close together that controls the size

and when you turn the funnel you are

actually spreading them further apart or

bring them closer together so then

that's where the Precision comes in like

if they are not coming

together perfectly parallel then you're

going to have a coarse grind coming out

of here and fine grind coming out of

here yeah not a good idea yeah so so

that's the other thing too is is with

the flats you know alignment is

something that matters it's got to be

parallel yeah and but on the conle

that's not that important on the conle

what's important is how concentric these

two go together I see so like if they

are a little bit tough like this it's

not going to be the end of the world

like not on the Flats on the flats 50

microns is noticeable you know on the

conical I don't think 50 microns will do

much but it will if it's a concentric

alignment so like here you are bringing

them closer together like this but if

you are off like this then you suddenly

have yeah you have different size that's

going through but but yeah that's that's

the thing is like you know a lot of what

we are discussing here is not

necessarily exactly things related to

flavor profile right it's more like well

if you own one of these alignment

matters the workflow is going to be

different but flavor profiles nowadays

they're getting pretty close together

and and in addition from that right like

the only thing that I think you should

be concerned about is and this is more

so for flaters is like you know you can

buy these flats and a lot of these

flaters you can stick them in all these

different Grinders but you have to then

look at you know the tolerances right

like the bur carrier how's the alignment

right because this is where you need to

then worry more about okay well maybe

you're not going to get the best

performance out of the Burr because of

the actual housing right and then that's

like a whole entire other conversation

but that's the that's the thing with

with these Flats is just be aware of

that right yeah but otherwise yeah like

I just wanted to have this quick little

discussion on Flats versus conical with

Dennis you know it's just cool to be

able to have a discussion on these

differences nowadays because I don't

really think they're that big anymore

yeah it's not like it's not like in the

you know previous versions like in the

old conical birs the difference was

massive you know I think these days like

that narrowed down a lot and I think the

biggest difference is actually on the

edge and especially with the dark rosts

I think is where you're going to see the

biggest difference I see I don't think

not that much in a in a light roast but

it's like if you're really pushing it

right you want like the maximum

extractions that's where you'll notice

it but also it's like you know that is

of what we can measure right it's still

going to come down to how you taste and

what you're into right you're going to

be able to taste those different like

you know I I do genuinely think if you

have a good flat and a good conle side

by side you should be able to taste

those differences but most people

probably just running one grinder if you

only one run one grinder you're probably

going to be good either ways if you're

getting a higher end flat or a higher

end conical in today's landscape right

but just wanted to provide a different

perspective there and and it's a journey

oh yeah it's fun it's a journey that's

where the fun is you know that's how I

started too you know it's like you go

through the Journey of enjoying coffee

and discovering things and it's like

it's fun yeah so it's that's that's

thing you know getting into the Hobby

and playing around with the different

Grinders and and different burs nowaday

it's like it's pretty hard to go wrong

if you pick a good manufacturer and good

grinder you pick a good flat conle

they're going to make you great coffee

it's really going to come down to what

coffee you're using and also the water

that's just still the end of the day

right the grinder is a tool for that but

you got to use good water and coffee

that is reality so yeah otherwise that

just a quick take on you know Flats

versus conical some slight difference

you know high level and some of the

closer things hope that was helpful

Maybe made things more confusing but

yeah thank you so much for watching see

you guys later