Amy Richards and Jennifer Baumgardner at Rollins College
Summary
TLDRThe transcript captures a discussion on feminism and its impact on individuals and society. It addresses the fear associated with identifying as a feminist, especially in progressive environments, and the challenges faced by young women in embracing the term. The conversation delves into the importance of vulnerability and the need to overcome fear to grow. It also touches on the role of feminism in various careers, including law and journalism, and the complexities of issues like rape, emphasizing that it's about power, not sexual urges. The dialogue encourages finding common ground and promoting equality without dictating lifestyle choices.
Takeaways
- đŁ The fear associated with the term 'feminist' can be daunting, even on progressive campuses, causing both men and women to react defensively.
- đ©âđ Young women often grapple with the question of whether to identify as feminists, influenced by societal perceptions and personal beliefs.
- đŁïž Feminism can be communicated more effectively by finding common ground and cultural signifiers that resonate with different audiences.
- đ Inspiring figures like Neil Gaiman advocate for embracing fear and vulnerability as a means for growth and creativity.
- đ The speaker suggests selectively using feminist language in certain groups to feel safe and to connect with others on shared experiences.
- đŒ Careers in feminism can span various fields, including law, human rights, and media, offering opportunities to integrate feminist values into professional life.
- đïž New York, like other cities, can provide a platform for those willing to take risks and engage in new experiences, fostering personal and professional growth.
- đ€ The willingness to take on any task, regardless of its perceived status, can lead to valuable opportunities and connections in the workplace.
- đšâđ©âđ§âđŠ Feminism supports the choice of women to be stay-at-home moms while also acknowledging the societal vulnerabilities this choice can entail.
- đ« The script challenges the stereotype that rape is about uncontrollable sexual urges, emphasizing that it's a tool of power and oppression.
- đ The conversation highlights the importance of understanding rape as a global issue, connected to power dynamics and cultural attitudes towards women.
Q & A
What is the initial reaction of the speaker's colleagues when she identifies as a feminist?
-The speaker notes that when she identifies as a feminist, she often sees fear in the faces of her educated colleagues, who consider themselves progressive. Both men and women tend to take a step back, indicating a sense of apprehension or misunderstanding about what being a feminist entails.
How does the speaker suggest young women deal with the fear associated with identifying as feminists?
-The speaker advises young women to understand that feminism is about empowerment and equality, and to not be afraid to claim the label. She also suggests finding ways to relate to others by using cultural signifiers and finding common ground, which can help in starting conversations about feminism.
What advice does the speaker give for starting a career in feminism?
-The speaker recommends exploring various avenues such as human rights law, which is a significant avenue for feminist activism. She also suggests being open to opportunities, taking risks, and being willing to learn and grow, even if it means feeling vulnerable or making mistakes.
How does the speaker feel about the idea of children's literature that includes scary elements?
-The speaker agrees with Neil Gaiman's perspective that it's wrong to think children shouldn't be exposed to fear. She believes that facing fear is a part of growth and that avoiding it can lead to a reluctance to be vulnerable, which is essential for personal development.
What does the speaker suggest as a strategy for discussing feminism in a group where one might not feel safe?
-The speaker suggests using a more mainstream approach by finding common interests or cultural signifiers that can make the conversation more relatable. This strategy can help in introducing feminist ideas in a subtle way that might be more acceptable to the group.
What is the speaker's opinion on the portrayal of rape as a result of men not being able to control their sexual urges?
-The speaker disagrees with this portrayal and explains that rape is more complicated than just a loss of control. She emphasizes that rape is often used as a tool of oppression and is rooted in power dynamics rather than uncontrollable sexual urges.
How does the speaker propose to make the concept of rape as a tool of oppression more accessible to someone who might not understand it?
-The speaker suggests engaging in a deeper conversation to understand the other person's perspective and sharing personal experiences or raising consciousness through education. She also recommends using specific examples or studies to illustrate the point that rape is about power, not uncontrollable urges.
What challenges does the speaker face when communicating feminist perspectives to people who haven't had similar experiences or education?
-The speaker finds it challenging to bridge the gap between her worldview, informed by feminist theory, and those who haven't had the opportunity to see things from that perspective. She feels that she sometimes operates from a completely different viewpoint, making communication difficult.
How does the speaker view the role of women in society in relation to the feminist movement?
-The speaker sees the feminist movement as a way to expose and challenge societal structures that undervalue women. She believes that feminism advocates for the empowerment and equality of women, allowing them to make choices, including being a stay-at-home mom, without facing vulnerabilities or lack of resources.
What does the speaker think about the societal attitude that women should control themselves to prevent rape?
-The speaker is critical of this attitude, arguing that it perpetuates a culture where men are not held accountable for their actions. She believes that the next generation should challenge this notion and that women should not tolerate being held responsible for preventing rape.
Outlines
đš Fear and Misconceptions Surrounding Feminism
The speaker, an out feminist, discusses the fear and misconceptions that arise when they identify as a feminist in a progressive environment. They describe how both men and women react with apprehension, often taking a step back as if the speaker might act unpredictably. The speaker empathizes with young women who are still exploring their feminist identities and seeks advice on how to address this fear. They also mention Neil Gaiman's perspective on fear, emphasizing the importance of not sheltering children from fear but rather teaching them to navigate it. The speaker shares personal strategies for integrating feminism into different social contexts and seeks guidance on how to start a career in feminism, given their interest in law, international human rights, and writing.
đĄ Feminism and the Choice to be a Stay-at-Home Parent
The conversation delves into the compatibility of feminism with the choice to be a stay-at-home parent. The speaker argues that while it is possible to be a stay-at-home mom and a feminist, societal structures often leave stay-at-home moms vulnerable due to lack of income and potential isolation. They discuss the romanticization versus the actual tedium and lack of societal respect for child-rearing. The speaker also addresses a friend's misconception that rape is a result of men's inability to control their sexual urges, explaining that rape is a tool of oppression and a display of power, not an uncontrollable hormonal urge. They emphasize the importance of challenging these views and raising awareness about the complexities of rape and gender dynamics.
đ Rape as a Global Issue and Feminist Perspective
The speaker expands on the global context of rape as a weapon of war and a tool of oppression against women. They discuss the importance of understanding rape beyond just a criminal act, highlighting its use as a means to humiliate and assert power. The conversation touches on the need for deeper understanding and communication, especially with those who may not share the same perspective. The speaker suggests engaging in dialogue to explore the roots of such misconceptions and to share personal experiences that could foster mutual understanding. They also mention a study from South Africa that challenges the notion of rape being driven by hormonal urges, instead pointing to it as a power-driven act. The discussion concludes with a call to action for changing societal attitudes towards rape and the need for a new generation to challenge and redefine these perspectives.
Mindmap
Keywords
đĄFeminism
đĄFear
đĄVulnerability
đĄStay-at-home mom
đĄRape
đĄOppression
đĄHuman Rights Law
đĄProfessional Feminist
đĄSerendipity
đĄMisogyny
Highlights
The speaker discusses the fear associated with identifying as a feminist, even among educated and progressive individuals.
Advice is sought for young women navigating their identity as feminists amidst societal fears and misconceptions.
Neil Gaiman's perspective on not sheltering children from fear is shared, suggesting it's essential for growth and understanding vulnerability.
The speaker's personal strategy of selectively using the term 'feminist' in different social contexts is described.
A method of identifying and highlighting feminist aspects in everyday life to make them more relatable is suggested.
Career advice is requested for someone interested in law, international human rights, and writing, with a focus on feminism.
The importance of human rights law as a pathway for feminist activism and its growing relevance is emphasized.
The potential decline of traditional media and the opportunities it presents for new forms of feminist expression are discussed.
Encouragement is given to pursue opportunities with curiosity and a willingness to take risks, even if it means feeling out of place.
The value of being open to various tasks and roles, even menial ones, is highlighted as a way to gain experience and respect.
A discussion on the compatibility of being a stay-at-home mom with feminist values, addressing vulnerabilities and societal structures.
The speaker challenges the stereotype that feminism dictates against certain life choices, such as being a stay-at-home mom.
An account of a conversation about rape, highlighting the complexity and the need to move beyond simplistic explanations.
The speaker advocates for a broader understanding of rape as a tool of oppression and a manifestation of misogyny.
A recommendation for a book that explores the theme of rape during the Holocaust, offering a deeper historical context.
The importance of challenging the cultural narrative that places the onus on women to control men's behavior is discussed.
The speaker calls for a change in the next generation's attitude towards rape and gendered violence, advocating for women's empowerment.
Transcripts
um and as an out feminist um on a not
particularly Progressive campus I think
there's a lot of fear when I say I'm a
feminist when I say that to my very well
educated colleagues many of whom
consider themselves Progressive
politically I see fear in their face a
lot of time men and women and they take
a step back from me like whoa wait a
minute what does that mean what she
going to do next like um so I wonder if
you could talk like if if I am getting
that fearful reaction and it's difficult
for me an adult established out
feminist I can only imagine what it's
like for young women who are trying to
figure out am I a feminist do I want to
be a feminist what does feminism mean do
you have advice for them about dealing
with that that fear both their own fear
and and the fear that they are likely to
evoke if they say the f word out
loud it's this is not directly related
to feminism can everybody hear without
the microphone or should I um I recently
heard Neil Gaiman speak and he wrote
Coraline and the graveyard book and my
favorite book the day I swap my dad for
a goldfish and he talks about what
inspires him his writing and because
everything in there is really scary and
he said because I think it's it's wrong
that we think kids shouldn't be fearful
he's like we to teach them not to be
fearful and the fact is like that then
that makes them grow up and they don't
ever want to be vulnerable and I thought
that was so profound to say um he also
said that when he first started
researching he went into a local
bookstore in London and he had a
four-year-old the time and he said do
you have any like horror books for kids
and they're like he say it was
practically as if I said do porn for
four-year-olds but it felt like that
analogy was like why are you going to
expose a kid to anything that's scary or
fearful and more specific to your
question I know that I personally have
learned to use feminism more selectively
and sometimes when I'm more as a
feminist a certain group and I don't
feel safe I find the things that make me
mainstream that make me relate to the
crowd and sometimes it's just like oh
yeah you went to St Barts I love St you
know sometimes something totally
superficial sometimes it's a little bit
more serious like oh yeah I read that
article in the New York Times about
Shawn pen going down to Haiti and and
making it into something that's feminist
but sort of finding the cultural
signifiers that say that were more
similar than maybe you think and that's
obviously very easy to do more in in
real time and that's harder to convey
like when you're on the internet
communicating with somebody I also have
learned to try to locate the feminism in
other people's lives so when they're
sort of saying why would you do that my
comeback is a subtle way being like
here's why you have to do this and
showing the ways that that feminism is
always already presenting opportunities
in their lives um so I guess what I'm
asking is what advice would you give to
someone like me like where could I start
what should I be looking
into so so that I can you know like
start a career like start on this path
what are you interested in what was your
major what is your major my Major's
political science and I mean I want to
do law with an international human
rights with focus on women and children
um but I mean I would also love to write
for a magazine or intern somewhere
there's a feminist summer in New
York you guys mentioned yeah so no we
found it it's our it's our c yeah yeah
okay that's what I'm saying how would I
like go
about oh you just apply to that so that
that you can check right off your
list and there's four people whove
already gone to it in the room so they
can give you advice but the but the
other things I think it's interesting
like we do call ourselves professional
feminists and we're sort of joking and
not that we make our living as feminist
there are many professions that are
related to that now and and many ways
you can approach having a career and be
very explicit about your feminism in
your career so human rights law I mean
that's that's huge and going forward
that's just going to be even bigger as a
lens for analyzing issues from
Reproductive Rights and Justice to sex
workers rights and Justice to
immigration I mean human rights law is
is a is a major major um Avenue to
feminist activism in the future and I
think some of the most interesting
Innovations are coming out of that that
lens probably magazines I mean mag are
supposedly dying you could get there if
you come in the next couple years to New
York you could probably work at a you
know intern at a magazine and those can
be pretty competitive but they're also
really really interesting and I think
New York is you could say this about any
number of places if you kind of like
jump in and you're inquisitive and
curious you can make a lot of things
happen for yourself if you take
opportunities and are willing to be
willing to risk something and willing to
feel stupid one day because you're not
really sure what you're doing and just
look for Serendipity and not have it all
planned out I think a lot of amazing
things just kind of come your way and I
know that the the biggest things that
have helped us are that we're willing to
do things like we are willing to answer
the phone or like change the pack
machine paper we're not above certain
jobs and I think you have this real
openness to being um that person in
anywhere that somebody can't do without
you end up working with glor st you know
it's just like these things it's it's it
does have to do in a way with like this
hunger and then this openness and this
humbl
yeah I just I'm just curious as to what
why can't you believe in empowering
women and that women should be empowered
and that they should be equal and they
should be able to fulfill roles that men
fulfill and that men should be able to
do the same women but why is it that you
can't have those beliefs but at the same
time choose to do something like be be
stay at home mom or stay at home and
take care of your kids CU I think you
just said that that was on becoming a
feminist well just The Stereotype of
what a
yeah but so which will lead me to
another question then what are the what
are some of the things that you would
see through these feminine contact
lenses that would that that that um that
don't agree with feminism what are some
of those things as a woman to change in
your life if you want it to be a
feminist well you could certainly be a
stay-at-home mom and be a feminist I
mean the when we spoke earlier about how
it's it's deemphasizing the choice that
you make but your ability to make the
choice that's true at the the same time
because of the way the society is
structured women who are stay-at-home
moms tend to have certain
vulnerabilities that they wouldn't that
feminism has been kind of working to up
end so you don't have income usually if
you're a stay- at home mom you're so
you're dependent and so if you're in a
good relationship that's fine but if
you're not you're you're much more
vulnerable to violence or whatever you
know just being with someone annoying
you know you're just you're more
vulnerable to that and um and it's
tedious I don't know who in this room
has children but raising young children
is very tedious and so there's that
element too the repetitive tedium and
it's not very valued we romanticize
child rearing we romanticize mothers but
we don't actually respect them they're
they're pedestalize but I don't think
that they actually are given the
resources that they need to be truly
valued and then there's the isolation
that often happens from being a stay-at
home mom I me the reason there's these
mommy and me groups and all this sort of
stuff that's come you know
these um marketing opportunities to moms
that have grown in the last 20 years is
because moms now realize that they don't
have to be isolated because they've had
so many doors opened up for them so then
when they choose to go back into the
home and they experien that isolation
it's menacing and so they try to
recreate you know some form of community
by having these mommy me groups so I I
think that um I think
feminism at its best exposes all the
ways in which we don't truly value women
in the world but it would never dictate
I think feminists do more to say that
being a stay-at home mom is a valid and
valuable um option than any other group
does personally so so basically if there
was a there was a woman who saw
value there are many women who do and
they absolutely and my question is that
I was talking with somebody close to me
about rape somebody who's educated
somebody who treats me really well and
there was an assumption on his part that
rape happens because a men can't control
their sexual urges
and I was really surprised to hear him
say that because he doesn't act like
that in his everyday life and I tried to
explain that you know rape is a lot more
complicated than that it's used as a
tool of Oppression people use rape in
war to oppress women to like humiliate a
nation humiliate women and you know it's
part of this misogyny that we have as a
culture this attitude towards women and
like it was met with like this like
really just look of like just being
completely confused like how could you
say something like that I thought it was
um an assumption that in our culture
that we just had that's
straightforwardly true and I felt like I
was talking from a worldview that was
completely inaccessible and I couldn't
find the words to make it to make it so
that it was understandable and I just
felt like we were operating from two
completely different perspectives and I
think that in a way we were because I
took Dr McLaren's feminist Theory class
and it opened my eyes to a lot of things
and I'm wearing those feminist contacts
that we're not now talking about and I
see things so differently and I I guess
my question is I have a hard time
communicating with people who haven't
had the opportunity to see things that
way and more specifically especially on
this rape issue if you could maybe say a
few words about how to make that more
accessible because it is we don't think
about rape in our culture that way to of
of like how it oppresses people how it's
not anything to do with sexual
org well I think it's interesting the
way the way I think it's interesting the
way the way you framed it cuz you went
right away to a really Global and um
generalized context that I think is true
but it was a very generalized context
you said it used as a weapon of war and
it is used as a tool of Oppression
against women and while I think that
that's true and that's feminist theory
for sure and I think that's an important
thing that that we've learned you know
in studying the history of rapes Brown
Miller kind of aggregated that
information I also think that it's it
feels very far away
and so this is someone you care about it
sounds like and someone who cares about
you that you're having this conversation
with and out of shock maybe you went to
that direction but I think that you
could peel back more where he's coming
from like so say more about that I mean
that's what I always say that people
should say in interviews as a journalist
say more about that and get them to kind
of go deeper like well where did he get
those
assumptions and what does he mean and
maybe he meant something slightly
different and then again if there's a
true commitment I think to each of you
in Friendship um and mutual respect to
invite him in a in a nice way to things
that you care about that have to do or
things that have helped you raise your
Consciousness some if your Consciousness
is just being a woman and walking down
the street and being aware that there
you know once we hit a certain age
there's this kind of predatory thing
that happens suddenly where you're like
I can't you know look up or make ey
contact with people because it could be
a weirdo you know there's there's that
element that you have that maybe he
doesn't have and you can share that a
little bit and then there's all the
stuff you did to raise your
Consciousness that that could help him
raise his too and there might be
something that he knows that would be
useful for you to hear too I mean I
don't think the way that he framed it
might even not that might not even be
the whole story of what he thinks he
knows about it there might be something
that he can tell you from a man's
perspective that's personal as opposed
to generalizing that would give you
information about rank
to and and if you need to go to
statistics there was a study done in
South Africa and I'll think of the
woman's name she was based in Cape to um
and did this study in South Africa they
tried chemical castration on rapist and
it did not diminish the
percentage of rapes at all and so sort
of proving that it's not a hormonal urge
it's not a hormonal urge that it is a
power urge and there's a book out right
now and it's a great book it's a very
tough book but it's about the rapes
during the Holocaust and in the
concentration camps and it specifically
talks about how everybody was so
humiliated and debased but it was one
way to sort of reclaim your Humanity was
them to rape a woman it was this sense
of like well at least I can have power
over something
because everybody else has power for me
right now and I mean just saying it's
like a very intense book to read because
it's very hard and very harsh um but it
gets to sort of that that point um and I
think that it
is rape is very complicated I don't know
if people saw this there was an article
in the New York Times yesterday about an
11-year-old girl that had been raped in
Texas and I literally two a month and a
half ago somebody emailed me about that
or 6 weeks two weeks ago somebody
emailed me about this case and I was
just emailing her back and she was like
why isn't any talking about this why is
and this was whatever really happened 2
weeks ago the woman emailed me and she
says why is anybody happening she's like
and here they're only covering it
they're not covering it because they're
making it about race and there is all
these ways I think that we distract from
the act of rape we try to be like oh but
it wasn't about that it was and where
were her parents why was she allowed out
of the house you know it immediately
sort of turned back on on girls and
women and I feel like separate of the
issue of rape I still think that what
happens tons in our culture and I see it
with dress codes in high schools I see
it with rape and sort of aggressive
behavior I see it you know with college
admissions there's a sense that men
can't be controlled so women have to
control themselves and I think that that
attitude has just perpetuated for far
too long that women have to take control
of themselves because we can't ask that
of men and I think that that has to sort
of change in the Next Generation that
women have to stop tolerating that
behavior and you see it with little boys
too you see it with you know little
girls are sort of like oh he didn't mean
it he didn't mean it and then that
behavior when you're 15 it's like he
didn't mean to back into that corner he
didn't mean to and you're like what okay
so it's my problem problem um and so
look at the ways separate of rape that
maybe it's practicing because I think it
all contributes to the same attitude
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