Turning BTC into a Programmable Asset on Solana w/ Justin Wang (Zeus Network)

Summary

In this episode of 'Validated', the discussion delves into the intersection of Bitcoin and the Solana universe with Zeus, a project aiming to bridge Bitcoin liquidity to Solana. Justin, the founder of Zeus, explains the concept of a 'layer 1.5' that facilitates programmability of external assets like Bitcoin on Solana, emphasizing the importance of a unified layer for usability and liquidity. The conversation explores the technical aspects of asset bridging, the future of Bitcoin on Solana, and the potential for new applications and collaborations between Bitcoin and other proof-of-work assets with Solana.

Takeaways

• 🚀 Zeus positions itself as a 'layer 1.5', aiming to bridge Bitcoin and Solana by making external assets programmable on Solana using SPNs.
• 🌉 The term 'communication layer' between Bitcoin and Solana refers to enabling transactions and asset transfers between the two ecosystems without the need for multiple layers or fragmentation.
• 🔒 Security and consensus are major focuses for Zeus, with an emphasis on non-custodial solutions and node participation in validating transactions across networks.
• 💡 The concept of 'Zeus as a layer to' is likened to a bridge for liquidity, but with a more integrated approach to maintaining the security and usability of assets across Bitcoin and Solana.
• 🤔 Concerns about layer fragmentation and liquidity issues are highlighted, with the argument that a single layer should handle transactions for long-term sustainability.
• 🔄 The technical process of transferring Bitcoin to Solana via Zeus involves depositing BTC into a tbCR address, which is then used to issue zBTC on the Solana side, guarded by a node coordination network.
• 🔑 The node coordination network (NCN) uses a threshold cryptography model, where private keys are divided and transactions require consensus among multiple nodes for validation.
• 🌐 The future vision for Zeus includes expanding the communication layer to other assets and chains, potentially enabling a wide range of applications and synthetic assets on Solana.
• 💼 The importance of a strong community and proven chain resilience is underscored, with Solana being chosen for its battle-tested performance and active community engagement.
• 🛠️ For developers interested in building on Zeus, the network is undergoing testnets with a mainnet launch planned, and there are plans for a Zeus hackathon in collaboration with Solana.
• 🔮 The discussion also touches on the broader relevance of proof-of-work assets in a proof-of-stake dominated landscape, suggesting that there's still demand and potential for these assets to be integrated into new technologies and platforms.

Q & A

What is the main focus of the discussion in the video script?

The main focus is the intersection of Bitcoin and the Solana universe, particularly discussing the role of Zeus as a communication layer between Bitcoin and Solana.

What is the concept of 'layer 1.5' as mentioned in the script?

The term 'layer 1.5' refers to Zeus's positioning as a hybrid between a base layer (layer 1) and a layer 2 solution, enabling external assets like Bitcoin to become programmable on Solana.

What issue does the founder of Zeus disagree with regarding layer 1 blockchains?

The founder disagrees with the fragmentation on layer 1, arguing against the idea of multiple layers with their own consensus mechanisms, which he believes can lead to usability and liquidity issues.

How does Zeus approach the problem of liquidity fragmentation?

Zeus aims to provide a solution that avoids liquidity fragmentation by enabling external assets to be programmable on Solana, thus maintaining a unified and liquid ecosystem.

What is the role of Apollo in the Zeus ecosystem?

Apollo is the first application built on top of Zeus, with the mission of onboarding millions of Bitcoins through Solana, allowing for the creation of zBTC assets on the Solana network.

What is the technical process for converting Bitcoin to a usable asset on Solana via Zeus?

Users deposit their Bitcoins into a tBTC address provided by Apollo, which then issues zBTC assets on Solana. The process is secured by a network of nodes using a threshold cryptography model.

How does the redemption process work for converting zBTC back to Bitcoin?

Users can withdraw their zBTC through Apollo, which then uses a reserve of Bitcoin to fulfill the request, ensuring a one-to-one correspondence between zBTC and Bitcoin.

What is the significance of using Solana as a coordination layer in the Zeus ecosystem?

Using Solana as a coordination layer allows for the validation of Bitcoin transactions on the Solana network, providing a secure and efficient way to interact with Bitcoin assets programmatically.

What are some potential future applications for the communication layer between Solana and Bitcoin?

Future applications could include the creation of synthetic tokens, decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs), and improved user experiences for transactions that currently rely on Bitcoin alone.

How does Zeus ensure the security of the assets deposited into its system?

Zeus uses a node coordination network that operates on top of Solana validators, with each asset guarded by the nodes themselves, ensuring that even the Zeus Foundation cannot access the deposited assets.

What is Zeus's stance on the future of proof-of-work assets in a proof-of-stake world?

Zeus believes that proof-of-work assets still have a place due to their security and decentralization, and aims to make these assets programmable and more integrated with proof-of-stake ecosystems like Solana.

Outlines

00:00

🔗 Introduction to Bitcoin and Solana Integration

The script begins with an introduction to the second episode of a show discussing the intersection of Bitcoin and the Solana ecosystem. The conversation focuses on Zeus, a project described as a 'layer 1.5' that aims to bridge Bitcoin with Solana, enabling external assets to become programmable on Solana. The founder of Zeus expresses disagreement with the fragmentation of layer 1 protocols and emphasizes the importance of usability and liquidity. The episode promises a deep dive into how Zeus operates as a communication layer between Bitcoin and Solana, different from traditional layer 2 solutions.

05:00

🛠️ Technical Explanation of Zeus as Layer 1.5

This paragraph delves into the technical aspects of Zeus, contrasting it with other Bitcoin layer 2 solutions that act more like sidechains with their own security mechanisms rather than being directly connected to the Bitcoin consensus. The speaker clarifies that Zeus nodes run on top of Sol validators, ensuring that assets are securely guarded without any single entity having control over the assets. The paragraph also touches on the composability of Zeus, allowing for the creation of new assets and token extensions on Solana, and the economic model where transaction fees generate revenue for the ecosystem.

10:02

🚀 Journey of Bitcoin from Bitcoin Network to Solana via Zeus

The speaker outlines the process of how Bitcoin is transferred from the Bitcoin network to be used within the Solana ecosystem through Zeus. This involves depositing Bitcoin into a tBTC address, which is then used to issue zBTC on Solana. The process is secured through a node coordination protocol that ensures no single party can access the Bitcoin, and transactions are validated across the network. The paragraph also discusses the potential for yield generation for miners and the ability to redeem zBTC back to Bitcoin, facilitated by a reserve system that prevents malicious attacks.

15:02

🌐 Future Applications and Vision for Bitcoin-Solana Communication

The script explores potential future applications for the communication layer between Bitcoin and Solana, such as the creation of synthetic assets and decentralized stablecoins collateralized by Bitcoin. It also suggests the possibility of bringing other assets like Litecoin and Dogecoin to Solana, highlighting the potential for increased utility and community engagement for these assets. The speaker envisions a future where Solana and Bitcoin can work together to create a strong ecosystem, with Zeus playing a central role in facilitating this interaction.

20:03

🤝 Collaborations and the Role of Solana in the Crypto Ecosystem

The speaker discusses the decision to use Solana as the coordination layer for Zeus and the evaluation process for this architectural choice. They emphasize Solana's resilience, social economics, and community strength as key factors in this decision. The paragraph also touches on the challenges of building a system dependent on another, the importance of speed and cost in the choice of blockchain, and the potential for Zeus to become a key player in enabling Bitcoin and other assets to interact with Solana, competing with Ethereum's Layer 2 solutions.

25:05

💡 The Relevance of Proof of Work Assets in a Proof of Stake World

This paragraph examines the role and relevance of proof of work assets like Bitcoin, Litecoin, and Dogecoin in a world increasingly dominated by proof of stake blockchains. The speaker argues that proof of work offers a decentralized consensus mechanism and has its own merits, despite the scalability and speed advantages of proof of stake. They also suggest that there is potential for these assets to be integrated into new systems and platforms, maintaining their value and utility in the evolving crypto landscape.

🌟 Upcoming Developments and Opportunities on the Zeus Network

The final paragraph discusses upcoming developments on the Zeus network, including the launch of Apollo, the first application built on top of Zeus, which aims to bring Bitcoin liquidity to Solana. The speaker also mentions plans for a Zeus hackathon in collaboration with Solana and Hacker House, as well as the goal to make Zeus a track in future Solana hackathons. The aim is to attract developers to build innovative solutions that leverage the Zeus network, further integrating Bitcoin and other assets into the Solana ecosystem.

Keywords

💡Bitcoin

Bitcoin is a decentralized digital currency that operates without a central bank or single administrator. It is the first and most well-known cryptocurrency and is often referred to as 'digital gold'. In the video, Bitcoin is discussed as an integral part of the financial ecosystem that is being bridged with the Solana universe through projects like tBTC and Zeus, which aim to bring wrapped Bitcoin to the Ethereum and Solana networks, enhancing liquidity and programmability.

💡Solana

Solana is a high-performance blockchain platform designed for decentralized applications and cryptocurrencies. It is known for its high transaction throughput and low fees. In the video, Solana is highlighted as the destination network for assets like Bitcoin, enabling them to become programmable through the work of projects such as Zeus, which acts as a communication layer between Bitcoin and Solana.

💡Layer 1.5

The term 'Layer 1.5' is used to describe a protocol that sits between a blockchain's base layer (Layer 1) and its secondary layers (Layer 2). In the context of the video, Zeus positions itself as a Layer 1.5, meaning it adds additional functionality to the base layer without being a full Layer 2 solution. It enables external assets to become programmable on Solana, thus bridging the gap between Bitcoin and Solana.

💡tBTC

tBTC refers to tokenized Bitcoin, a wrapped version of Bitcoin that can be used on the Ethereum network. In the video, tBTC is mentioned as a bridge liquidity layer that brings wrapped Bitcoin to Ethereum and then to Solana, facilitating the use of Bitcoin in decentralized finance (DeFi) applications across different blockchains.

💡Zeus

Zeus is a protocol discussed in the video that aims to be the first communication layer between Bitcoin and Solana. It allows for the creation of wrapped versions of various cryptocurrencies, making them usable in the Solana ecosystem. The script mentions that Zeus enables assets like Bitcoin, Litecoin, and Dogecoin to become programmable on Solana, thus expanding their utility beyond their native blockchains.

💡Decentralized Finance (DeFi)

DeFi refers to financial services that are built on blockchain technology and operate without traditional intermediaries like banks. In the video, DeFi is implicitly the context in which Bitcoin and other assets are being integrated into the Solana ecosystem through protocols like Zeus, allowing for more complex financial applications and interactions.

💡Liquidity Layer

A liquidity layer is a component of a financial system that provides assets to be readily convertible to cash or other assets without affecting their prices. In the video, tBTC is described as a bridge liquidity layer that facilitates the movement of Bitcoin's value to the Ethereum network and subsequently to Solana, enhancing the liquidity of Bitcoin in the DeFi space.

💡Tokenization

Tokenization is the process of representing a real-world asset or a virtual asset on a blockchain in the form of a token. In the context of the video, tokenization is central to the function of Zeus, which allows assets like Bitcoin to be represented as tokens on the Solana blockchain, thereby making them programmable and usable in DeFi applications.

💡Interoperability

Interoperability refers to the ability of different systems or components to exchange and make use of information. In the video, the concept of interoperability is key to the discussion of how Zeus enables communication and interaction between the Bitcoin network and the Solana ecosystem, allowing assets to move and be utilized across different blockchains.

💡Smart Contracts

Smart contracts are self-executing contracts with the terms of the agreement directly written into code. They are a fundamental component of blockchain technology, enabling trustless transactions. In the video, the lack of smart contract functionality on Bitcoin is contrasted with the capabilities of Solana and Ethereum, where smart contracts are used to create complex DeFi applications. Zeus aims to bring a semblance of this functionality to Bitcoin by making it programmable on Solana.

💡Decentralized Applications (dApps)

Decentralized applications, or dApps, are applications that run on a blockchain rather than a central server. They are typically the result of smart contract interactions. In the video, the potential for creating new dApps on Solana using assets like Bitcoin, enabled by protocols like Zeus, is highlighted as a significant development in expanding the utility and reach of these assets.

Highlights

Zeus positions itself as a 'layer 1.5', enabling external assets like Bitcoin to become programmable on Solana.

Zeus aims to avoid fragmentation of liquidity and usability issues associated with multiple layer 2 solutions.

The importance of a single layer for transactional sustainability in the long term is emphasized.

Zeus uses a node coordination network running on top of Solana validators for consensus on external blockchain activity.

Assets deposited into external blockchain addresses are guarded by Zeus nodes, ensuring security and immutability.

Zeus introduces a new form of Bitcoin wrapped asset on Solana, called zBTC, facilitated by Apollo.

The concept of 'tBTC-AEs' is introduced for secure custody and private key management of Bitcoin.

Zeus nodes utilize threshold signatures to ensure the security of Bitcoin assets on the Solana network.

Zeus allows for the redemption of zBTC back to Bitcoin, with a process managed by smart contracts.

Apollo, built on Zeus, aims to bring millions of Bitcoins into the Solana ecosystem.

Zeus is designed to be composable, allowing for the creation of new financial products and services on Solana.

The potential for synthetic asset creation using Zeus is discussed, including the possibility of algorithmic stablecoins.

Zeus is evaluated as a strong candidate for Bitcoin and other proof-of-work assets to interact with Solana.

The future of proof-of-work assets in a proof-of-stake dominated landscape is explored, highlighting their continued relevance.

Zeus is set to undergo further testing before a mainnet launch, aiming for a secure and stable platform for Bitcoin on Solana.

The first Zeus hackathon is planned for the end of the year, with Solana as a major sponsor, to encourage development on the platform.

Transcripts

[Music]

Justin welcome to validated pleasure to

be here ah so this is our second episode

talking about the intersection of

Bitcoin and the salana universe so you

know last time on the show we we talked

to threshold and thesis about tbtc which

is sort of a bridge liquidity layer um

that brings wrapped Bitcoin to ethereum

and then brings that asset to salana but

what you guys are doing at Zeus is a

little bit different you guys talk about

this as the First Communication layer

between Bitcoin and salana what is that

actually mean this is the type of

question that I often get asked from

from people on in the conference like

what is Zeus like is Zeus layer to or is

is layer to like for S spns you know SAR

know entirely you know uh me as a

Founder I I'm strongly disagree with uh

fragmentation on the ler one perspective

first first in terms of usability for

the user size why would you want to

change RPC to another new layer but if a

layer want Sal is far more usable the

most of layers AR and second but the

most importantly is uh liquidity

fragmentations you know we we have

experienced that for the last two years

from ethereum perspective for EVN you

know there to is not for it's not the

solutions there there could be a

temporary solution but for for the

long-term sustainable solution wise uh I

don't think users really appreciate that

and uh and and then we we're start

seeing the reason why Anatolia Raj for

from two years ago saying that one layer

should transact everything instead of

multiple layers on top of it so you know

uh what Zeus does we we we portray

ourself as a layer 1.5 so long as a

layer one plus 0.5 Zeus which would

enable external assets like Litecoin

Bitcoin Dogecoin any UT chain are not

programmable we make it programmable on

salana using the SPN on the L web

perspective

yeah so let's get into a little bit of

how that actually works I think I think

famously Bitcoin and and these other

types of assets you mentioned they don't

really have a smart contract system

there's some tap rot magic and there's

maybe some bit VM sometime in the future

but you know if you look at all of the

existing l2s today like the Bitcoin l2s

today they're really side chains with

some sort of trust minimized bridging um

very similar to you know how polygon

proof of stake has no Direct Security

relationship to ethereum it is a side

chain at that point versus something

like an optimism which is actually built

properly on top of the ethereum stack so

walk me through a little bit how like

you you call this a layer

1.5 uh how is it differ from a classic

like side chain implementation yeah for

sure you know first of I just want to

emphasize on the Bitcoin lat aspect

right now you know we we probably see

more than 30 50 plus Bitcoin l so C uh

coming out this year or or last around

the end of last year at that time and a

lot of like atin say Obviously a lot of

these layers are not correlated with

Bitcoin on on the layer one consensus

yeah more so they're more like a slain

perspective with with their own POS

mechanisms enabling their own security

rather than working uh interchangeably

with a Bitcoin P consensus yeah so that

to me they are just creating a layer and

then which something called bvn you are

pretty much taking perspective into

their own layer changing gas from

ethereum to Bitcoins is that helpful I'm

not sure cuz you know every cycle users

investors obviously retails are changing

their advertise and they know what is

good what is good for the future of what

3es so and then that's why here's the

reason why I started Zeus almost 14

months ago all right I went I was in

Europe I went to a couple Bitcoin

conferences and I was just like I diing

into all these tech technical paper on

on a Bitcoin L I realized that hey

they're just creating their own layers

yeah and why don't we just Mix A Lot as

a layer to for these P consensus etx so

change on their and we have to know that

right like a lot of these miners they're

looking for sustainable yeld they're not

looking for crazy incentives like 10 20%

yeld yeah sure he could be appealing for

for for the F for the first few days but

where does the Y come from right we have

to know yeld comes from users if a

protocol and ecosystem has no deps and a

users the your are inflation there in

most of the aspects are are coming from

their own native tokens so you know I

still think that's LW we providing the

most sustainable y right now if you look

at in terms onchain activities and

unchain growth rates and here's the

reason why you know um a lot of people

ask me if Zeus is not there to you guys

there point one point but how does that

works which which means Zeus all these

assets are communicated over to salana

by Zeus are safely guarded by Zeus No

and Ze know it's a consensus it's a

consens of NPC models running on top of

Sol validators which means we don't run

our own validator we have our own nodes

and nodes and power our consensus which

is NPC models uh every asset that are

deposit in into the external blockchain

address are simply guarded by the node

itself which means even Zeus Foundation

ourselves have have no right to really

take the assets whatever you deposit and

me on a salon side of it so I I think

it's refreshing in many aspects that

Zeus also get as a lot you guys Bridge

you know uh first of first of all like

you know uh without Bridge you know um

we are far more interv composable in a

way that people can build on top of zpl

and then creating zpl assets and then

zpl assets actually dery token

extensions so we're we extremely

confident that with zpu asset especially

like external assets like Bitcoin

Litecoin room order nose it's really

going to do the strong Showcases of what

token extension can do for the Sol

entire somos system and then obviously

with the the rivue models of uh Zeus zp

assets which is uh token station models

the more transaction that being on chain

the more Revenue we earn in sell and the

more we kick back to ZN itself too so

right now there there really six things

that want to build on top of zpo they

want to build like a multi- lunch pad

you know uh I'm not sure a lot of you

guys have experienced using Ordo uni

sets wallet to purchase Ordo in STS it

takes about 30 40 minutes and not just

that right you're pretty pretty much

paying inscriptions uh tokens on on a

Bitcoin block that has no utilities that

has no programmable actions you can do

governance on top of it but why can't we

migrate these to Sal I think that could

be interesting moving forward yeah so I

I want to kind of go back to like that

the technical layer of how Zeus actually

operates so you mentioned there's kind

of this node coordination Network that's

running on top of of salana um but if

I'm taking something like Bitcoin right

walk me through like what is the Journey

of me taking from a technical

perspective me taking a Bitcoin that's

on the Bitcoin Network and generating

something I can use in Salon def5 via

Zeus so Apollo as a First Step Building

on top of zpl so pretty much AP poo and

the mission of AP poloo is UN boarding

millions of Bitcoins through salon

and what it does Apollo leverage the

communication portal between Bitcoin and

Sal using Sal to validate whatever

happens on the Bitcoin ends so which

means the to walk through you you simply

deposit uh your Bitcoins into the

address that is as being provided by

polls and it will provide you another

version of a zpu asset which is called

zbc on salana end and your BDC is simply

guarded by zils no one has the right to

take whatever the BDC that's depositing

to the in the address and then you can

use zbd deposit into this for example

like comminos or any structure products

or bar Lings I think these are the type

of defa action that uh Bitcoin

institutions are looking for you know

even just 1% of Y sustainably that is

huge for miners so so where uh you know

the classic problem with every time

you're trying to move a Bitcoin off of

the Bitcoin network is someone or

something has to custody it and because

there's no smart contract programming

language on bitcoin you can't do what

you typically do on a on a a network

like salana or ethereum where you know

you wrap it in a smart contract program

that is open source and audited and you

know like battle tested from that

perspective so so what is the actual

like custody look like on this case are

you basically taking that Bitcoin seed

phrase for that address and like

breaking it up and MPC it throughout the

nodes or how is the actual Bitcoin

secured so basically um we use tab rots

so you deposit into a tber AES uh for

your Bitcoins and then send sign to our

our Z not and then issue Z notes this is

six Z NOS will divide their private keys

and then use NPC to mix up the private

key so no one knows on chains which noes

are actually holding the key to transex

and then all pretty much all the all of

these six noes have to be operated at

the same time to really ensure the

transaction from the Tabo address are

being validated on SPN levels so in a

short turn for non technical people

we're using SL to validate whatever

happens on the Bitcoin side and when Sal

validated on our end by Z Del and then

we released the tokens which is called

cbdc on Sal ends you you have that zp

asset on your wallets nice and so if I

want to go the other way if I've bought

zbtc on Solana and I say ah I want to

deposit it into my Bitcoin address how

does that like Redemption flow work so

once you get zbtc you can also withdraw

from Apollos so pretty much the amount

of cbdc will not inflate unless there

more PTC deposit into totally and if

there's strong demand of zbc there's

going to be Ki premium in some

perspective if the salon cbdc on on SOL

side higher price than act BDC there's

going to be average charge opportunities

and I believe that more people will

actually want to deposit BDC into cbdc

and S Sal and once you hit that

equilibrium levels the price will adjust

it to a market level SPS and obviously

there's no work on Bitcoins and uh I

think with with this way if more demands

will cost more Supply and eventually

you meet the equilibrium levels for the

price itself yeah totally so but if I

want to like uh like unwrap for lack for

better term um and get like you know I

I've like so for example like with with

thesis or threshold the Redemption Arc

is on salana you have to bridge it to

ethereum and then you can talk to the

thesis Network and you can get BTC back

on the other end how does that work uh

with Zeus or you know it maybe complet

difference yeah like it honestly it just

withraw your BDC to BDC address yeah

we're we're going to ask you to provide

your BDC address and within within 12

hours you're going to get your bdcs on

theirs so is that like a in the loop or

how is that kind of managed for that

Redemption um it's it's on program

levels because we have like coold

Reserve High reserve on the balance

sheets so we want to ensure that nobody

not not everyone is going to reserve and

then do malas attack at one time so

there's going to be Cod reserves for

example 60% of bdcs is going to be hot

wallets 40% is going to be on C wallet

as well and everything is done by on a

program site as well yeah so so like uh

walk me through kind of how that

coordination works so you mentioned that

like you guys are using tap R addresses

and so the Zeus nodes are are

controlling the NPC how do they

reassemble the key to then like withdraw

Bitcoin from that tap rot address like

when someone requests you know let's say

there's like you know a th000 Bitcoin in

this particular address and you know I I

have want to get one out or something

like that so um when you get extra

Bitcoins zbtc on a salon size somebody's

losing it yeah like that that's how it

works and when you want to withdraw in

through Apollos which is the first T

build on about zpl you're going to have

to provide your Bitcoin address and then

once Sol it's pretty much like a lock a

m mechanism so you release your zbtc and

then one of the address for the code

reserves is going to release to address

and then you're going to get your uh

your Bitcoins on on a provided address

and this this weight has no censorships

there's no third party everything's done

by procedures and the programable ways

per nice and so how do you kind of view

the future of kind of a Bitcoin Salon

communication layer like the the first

use here is sort of not not exactly

bridging but something similar to to

bridging or synthetic asset Creation

with a one toone backed asset what are

the other applications you see for

communications layers between salana and

networks like Bitcoin I think Apollo is

going to demonstrate the the potential

of having layer 1.5 between Bitcoin

salana you know Ian Sol can make Bitcoin

programable with SV the potential of SVN

and obviously Apollo is the first

reaking of a big BDC question reaking

bdcs from BDC to Sal and I think the

more use cases that we SE that people

want to collaberate bitcoin issues

stable coins on the law as well that

could be C change as well if D could

work out with EVN why can we do St

decentralized algic stable coins Al has

been collateral by Bitcoins could also

work very well as well and more

perspective is that there are more than

50 plus thousand of collection order

notes there are lack of utilities no

Governors no way to really prel the

community more Force you know with a lot

of consensus and decisions but with with

Zeus you can really build a synthetic

Dell tokens from weo to SPL Z standards

and then people can really use Reland on

salana fings a lot of things cool thing

you can do with that and then also by

the way lunch part as well right I think

as a matter of fact that like if you

want to use Unis set a lot of Bitcoin

wallets to purchase sets or rooms a lot

of all these like encrypted uh letters

it takes forever and the user experience

are pretty terrible actually so if we

can use salana the part you deposit you

s to buy whatever on a Bitcoin ends that

could be interesting models as well yes

so I want to kind of go back to one

piece which is you mentioned this is all

built using Salon as a coordination

layer why did you guys decide to make

that decision and and sort of what was

that process like what else did you

evaluate for architecture decisions yeah

um I think Frankly Speaking we we've

been building US law since 20 late 2019

early 2020 um we were probably one of

earliest one of the earliest Asian

developers in Asia that are been

advocating salana since day one you know

you you can't always pick a better chams

obviously there there's a reason why we

stayed so lot for the last four almost

five years or 80s is that every year

there's always better chain with uh

faster TPS but the chain that has been

constantly going through stress tests

constantly going through battles and it

has the best social economics social uh

uh communities I think that those are

the chains that you want to B on and and

then we have proven that our the thesis

were right from early this year you know

down chain usage for salana daily activ

a l address has been phenomenal in one

aspect and why makes a l Bitcoin

together I think that's very interesting

models a lot of people ask me Justin

what do you think of this first place I

think if there has to be one layer that

has to be inter with salana it has to be

sorry with Bitcoin has to be salana you

know ethereum had they had their own

chance Last cycles that bdcs rain BDC

all these like so-called like

communication there they were trying to

do a similar what law does they could

have pull it off because Layer Two it

wasn't because of the design of layer

one there it was because of competition

of Layer Two due to high cost and low

speeds and if you have you have two

chains that are low speed trying to work

with each other it doesn't make sense in

many aspects right so I think salana has

proven low cost high speeds it's

actually buildable and much easier to

build compared to fors and not to

mention us acquisitions I think a lot of

people think that I I can be the first

product in this chain and I I have the

market shance but it doesn't work that

ways everyone tries to run the Lio

Playbook yeah exactly why would you want

to build on anything on top of besides

iOS and Androids right now it doesn't

make sense to me at all so for me

Android's ethereum iOS is Salona if we

can make iOS works with Bitcoins which

is on Tab liquidities we have a strong

Edge right over here and it's not just

that right

like I mentioned there are six projects

want to be on top of zpl these projects

are coming from Bitcoin communities

right it's not coming from Sal they they

had they have enough frustrations from

so called Pon L too too much promising

and then people don't realize that it's

actually not that easy to be all

layer yeah I mean this this is one of

the things people always overestimate or

underestimate they they think oh we'll

just build a management layer on top of

this thing and like you know other than

base very few have actually managed to

build a strong compelling one which I

think is very very interesting like the

the the problems of building a system

that's dependent on another system um

are pretty massive um not to say it

can't be done but it's just a it's a

hard process to get right I agree I mean

like there's always better chains out

there every years obviously it's going

to come out like faster TPS fast

SEC that but who's actually using it

like people actually use it so uh I want

I want to take a little bit of a a turn

here um you guys have an kind of

interesting model and correct me if I'm

understanding this right or wrong but of

uh like a verifiable program

library on on Zeus how does that work

and and what's the sort of uh what's the

reason for needing like a program

registry there

basically what we what how we

differentiate us with a lot of So-Cal

question layers out there is that first

of all we we are not layers with layer

1.5 so yeah we pretty much opens another

doors for SL to really interact with

external blockchains interchangeably and

permissionless ways to do that second

but most importantly we want to Advocate

future developers and Founders to build

the next generation of request stream

products and I I'm still a Believer the

future should be monolithic in a way

that future should be multi-chain cost

chains in many aspects if s SPN is

really propelling the cyclos and really

helping a lot of users and Founders to

build Next Generation web web 3 apps why

could we enable this to exteral

blockchains you know a lot of these UT

Exel chains out there they are onta

liquidity in my opinions they're sitting

around 10 billion to 50 billion 100

billions like so lot other Bitcoin

equities out there they're waiting for

us to really develop the Next Generation

in deps to really Propel moving Force so

um I just spoke to Litecoin miners three

days ago actually they're very excited

very excited first of all they could be

programable first ever I mean there were

chains out there they wanted to try I

also spoke to me one of the big biggest

miners for dogecoins as well they want

to make that happens as well why can't

Dogecoin work with s it could be a lot

of interesting model moving forwards as

well right so yeah so do you sort of see

a lot of these networks then

as because Doge there have been

proposals floating around for Doge to

migrate to proof of stake for a long

time and in that migration there's

always kind of been an assumed oh well

we could easily add some form of light

compute layer on top of that as well do

you sort of see that as like maybe not

gaining as much traction and instead

they're looking at oh what if we could

just bring the Doge asset class to other

other networks yeah um great question

first of all um I mean I I'm pretty sure

ethereum Foundation spent probably half

billion dollars on um from by creting

ppos at least for all these last four

years and in terms of Doge if you go go

go to the GitHub to see their

commitments it's not even close to the

obviously and you know if if that

doesn't work why can waste a lot of help

and then frankly I spoke to two Dogecoin

miners they're very optimistics about

this kind of collaborations right

they're they have so much Doge sitting

there mostly into institutions wallets

collateral getting more stable coins War

just sitting in in F2 pools lending

their Doge for whatever people want to

borrow gas to so you know if there are

Innovations between Doge and an actual

Dogecoin that could be potentially

earning y Sala or multiple questioning

deps or even Caminos even earning yells

from drifts right TR dogecoins native

Dogecoin on salana that could be

interesting as well yeah so so what do

you kind of see as like the relevancy

for these proof of work assets over over

the long term like I think the the

Bitcoin pitch is fairly uh well

established at this point you know oh

like the most secure form of digital

asset you can get is Bitcoin right there

there's a whole narrative around that

structure but I think if you start

looking at like the other proof of work

assets like that thesis you know gets a

little bit shakier because you know

there's only one gold right and maybe

there's two Golds now there's Bitcoin as

well but like people don't have that

same sort of like fervor for silver or

platinum or any of the other rare Metals

there something that's like really

captured people's minds about about gold

so you know Doge obviously has this like

very big mem coin status but like

Litecoin as well like where do you see

kind of demand for these assets being

programmable come in like what is the

sort of um I I mean I'm not really

asking you to justify their existence

but like you know why are these asset

classes still desirable in a proof of

stake world yeah um obviously P came

first then p p and then yeah migration

of p p from POS for ether obviously due

to scalability and the speed of chain

itself does miter really want that

happens you know I spoke a lot of OG

miters for theor a lot of them have

moved to AGI Marketplace which is AI

competing Powers interesting but you

know I think a lot of it are due to

speed of the chain so and then the

needed for to change over else and then

am I a fan of P I'm actually a fan of P

I think probably the most decentralized

consensus out there that could be fairly

distributed two people could could

really M the coins with their own love

computers for early days and then if you

have to purchase mining machines right

now it's probably going cost you like a

fortune right now for a lot of retails

but back in the days it was fairly

distributed so do I think p is going to

dry down or go with faded I don't think

so actually seems a couple P chains out

there are emerging right now uh with a

lot of uh um um speed improvements or

programable actions Cas for So-Cal a lot

of P Chang even file coins from the

early days as well so um yeah like you

know it's probably one of the best way

to fairly distribute it uh not just from

a coin perspect perspective Al also from

the network perspective as well and yeah

like there there's there's there's

always going to be battle between p ps

without questions in my in my takes and

then obviously it's it's it's probably

coming from the people people that with

their own intentions and and and

benefits so um but it's good for

industry right there's always debates

there's always discussions definitely so

uh you mentioned Apollo is the first uh

application that's been built on top of

Zeus uh is there anything else you can

tell us about what's what's getting

built now and also for developers who

are maybe interested in learning more

and digging into the code and figuring

out what they could bu build on the

network uh where can they go to get

started yeah for sure so uh we are we

are going through music test n right now

uh it's the last test St before we

actually enabled was still opening on on

the Maine bet dos we we're we are

targeting Maine

Bots hopefully around breako time so we

can release around a around big point

for mini betas and then people can

really leverage and stick their their

tokens and delegate into the notes and

then together protect the zo n work

togethers and when that happens the

Bitcoin can really come in just l in the

pr matter through Apollos and Apollo is

the first steps and we also want to do

Apollo token with points it could be no

VC back and actually the token that has

do of Bitcoins behind behind the the dep

itself so lot of way we can do it and

then yeah and then we also want to host

the first ever Zeus heam around the

quarter of this Ser uh late this series

with Tae uh Hacker House which is around

December I think Sol also the biggest

sponsor at that time as well and yeah

and then our go is to be one of the

tracks for next year for Salon

hackathons I still think that some other

yvn could be probably be the only

solution enabling Bitcoin Litecoin

Dogecoin any chains out there coming to

salana and when that happens we have a

strong Edge to compete with with Ean TBL

in my perspective very cool well uh

Justin thank you for joining us today on

validated than you guys it's been my

pleasure

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