Katie Debates Antizionism With Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro
Summary
TLDRThis detailed discussion explores the complex relationship between Zionism, Judaism, and anti-Semitism, with a focus on the political and ideological nuances that distinguish these concepts. The dialogue delves into how Zionism utilizes propaganda to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, a stance supported by notable figures and reflected in various public statements and writings. The conversation further examines the implications of conflating Jewish identity with Israeli nationality and Zionism, highlighting the importance of decoupling these notions for a clearer understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The discourse also addresses the role of Jewish and Israeli voices in the broader conversation about peace and justice in the region, emphasizing the need for critical examination of Zionism's foundational ideologies and its impact on both Jewish and Palestinian communities.
Takeaways
- 😊 There is disagreement on whether anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism, with some arguing that opposing Israel's right to exist is inherently anti-Jewish
- 😕 Zionism is seen by some as contradictory and illogical in claiming to represent all Jews worldwide
- 🧐 Propaganda and conflation of Judaism with Zionism are viewed as key to Zionism's success
- 😠 Critics argue Zionism illegitimately claims Jewish identity, history and trauma to justify itself
- 😟 Israel's self-definition as a Jewish state is seen as undemocratic by critics
- 😕 Critics argue left-wing Jewish anti-Zionism actually reinforces the conflation of Jews and Israel, helping Zionist propaganda
- 🤔 There is debate around whether Jewish voices criticizing Israel are counterproductively playing into narratives linking Jews and Israel
- 😠 Critics argue the conflict is nationalist, between Israelis and Palestinians, with Jews uninvolved
- 😟 Jewish state ideology is seen by critics as the core issue enabling conflict and oppression
- 🤔 There are calls for scholarship and advocacy exploring paths for Israel to become a normal civic democracy
Q & A
What is the main contradiction that Rabbi Shapiro sees with Zionism?
-He believes the main contradiction is that Zionism claims Israel should exist as the nation state for Jews, similar to how Japan is the nation state for Japanese people or France is for French people. However, unlike those examples, not all Jews live in or have nationality in Israel, so it does not make sense to equate Israel with being the nation state for all Jews globally.
How does Rabbi Shapiro explain the propaganda behind the equation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism?
-He explains that pro-Israel advocates like Netanyahu and others insist that to be against the existence of Israel as a Jewish state is to be against the existence of Jewish people overall. By equating the two, they aim to defend Zionism by attacking critics as anti-Semitic.
What does Rabbi Shapiro say is the key to defeating Zionism?
-He believes the key is to decouple the concepts of Zionism and Judaism—to make clear that Zionism does not represent all Jews globally, and that one can support Jewish identity and culture while still opposing the political ideology of Zionism.
What does Rabbi Shapiro see as the core problem with Israel claiming to be the 'Jewish State'?
-He sees it as making Jews worldwide into human shields for Israel, as they can then be blamed or attacked over the actions of Israel. He thinks Jews should completely distance themselves from this identity, as Israel has no right to claim it represents Jews.
How does Katie disagree with Rabbi Shapiro's view on leftist Jewish critics of Israel?
-Katie feels Jewish critics play an important role in opposing Israel's actions and shifting public opinion, even if indirectly reinforces the linkage of Israel with Jews. Rabbi Shapiro sees them as 'Jane Fondas' who encourage Zionism despite good intentions.
What does Rabbi Shapiro say should be the focus of scholarship and discussion regarding Israel/Palestine?
-He believes the focus should be on how to transition Israel away from being a Jewish state to a normal democracy that represents all its citizens equally, using historical precedents of countries abandoning discriminatory ideologies.
What security issue does Rabbi Shapiro say is used as an argument against a one-state solution?
-He mentions that many Jews argue a single democratic state would pose a security threat. So he believes research is needed to either provide historical examples showing this is not the case, or else describe possible security mechanisms to mitigate concerns.
What does Rabbi Shapiro see as the litmus test for whether someone is truly anti-Zionist?
-He argues that if someone would still oppose Israel even if there was a two-state solution that brought peace and Palestinian happiness, then they are truly anti-Zionist. If they would be satisfied with that, then he believes they are actually just focused on Palestinian rights, not opposing Zionism itself.
Why does Rabbi Shapiro argue against Jews supporting Palestinians 'as Jews'?
-Because he feels it reinforces the linkage between Jews/Judaism and Israel/Zionism promoted by Zionist propaganda. He thinks Jews should oppose Israeli policies simply as human beings and Americans, while Israelis or Israeli-Americans would be the meaningful allies for Palestinians.
What does Katie feel she needs to think more about regarding Rabbi Shapiro's perspectives?
-She seems conflicted between seeing the short-term value of Jewish critics in opposing Israeli human rights abuses, versus Rabbi Shapiro's argument that in the long-term this linkage inadvertently helps sustain Zionism. She wants to weigh both perspectives further.
Outlines
😐 Discussion on Zionism being contradictory, propagated through tremendous propaganda
The first paragraph discusses how Zionism is contradictory and doesn't make sense. It talks about how Zionism has worked through tremendous propaganda and the claim that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. It presents the Zionist formulation that Israel is to Jews like what France is to the French, and argues that you can't separate Jews and Israel under Zionism.
😮💨 Some 'anti-Zionists' are just pro-Palestinian rights, not truly opposing the ideology
The second paragraph continues on Zionism and anti-Zionism. It suggests many 'anti-Zionist' activists and groups like Jewish Voice for Peace aren't really anti-Zionist, they just care about Palestinian rights. If Zionism didn't harm Palestinians, they'd be okay with Israel. True anti-Zionism opposes the ideology itself beyond just Israel's actions.
😵💫 Urgency of conflict leads to lack of time for real scholarship and effort to resolve
The third paragraph argues the urgency and constant conflict related to Israel/Palestine means there is never time for real scholarship and effort towards a solution. The author argues that all the effort currently put towards one/two state discussions should go towards making Israel a normal democracy.
👀 Core problem is Israel claiming to represent all Jews globally
The fourth paragraph states the core problem is Israel claiming to represent Jews worldwide, using them as 'human shields' to justify its undemocratic actions. The solution is to force Israel to act like a normal democracy, not an ethnostate for Jews.
😡 True anti-Zionists would still oppose Israel even if it made peace with Palestinians
The fifth paragraph argues true anti-Zionists would still oppose Israel even if somehow the conflict was resolved and Palestinians were happy. Because Zionism is an ideology, not just opposition to Israeli actions. It claims Jewish supremacy and exceptionalism.
💭 Lack of serious scholarship on transforming Israel into a normal, democratic state
The sixth paragraph critiques the lack of serious scholarship providing historical precedents and studies on how to transform Israel into a normal democracy like other countries. It questions where are the efforts to convince Israelis and Palestinians this is viable.
😒 No need to use Jewish identity to advocate for Palestinian rights
The seventh paragraph continues the debate, arguing there's no need to use one's Jewish identity to advocate for Palestinian rights. This only reinforces the perception Jews are the combatant against Palestinians when the conflict is really Israelis vs. Palestinians.
🤔 More thinking required on utility of Jewish criticism of Israel in both short and long term
The final paragraph concludes Jews criticizing Israel likely helps in short term by easing accusations of anti-Semitism against non-Jewish critics. But in the long run it may reinforce Zionism's claim to represent all Jews globally. More thought is required to weigh these factors.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Zionism
💡anti-Zionism
💡propaganda
💡identity
💡democracy
💡human rights
💡activism
💡solidarity
💡nation-state
💡colonialism
Highlights
Zionism conflates Judaism with Zionism, anti-semites do it to delegitimize Judaism; zionists do it to legitimize Zionism
Anti-zionism is not anti-semitism; Israel tries to equate the two through propaganda
Israel insists if you believe it should not exist, you're an anti-semite; but anti-zionism is opposition to the ideology, not Jews
Many 'anti-zionists' just oppose Israel's actions, not the ideology itself; they'd be fine if Palestinians were ok with Israel
The core problem is Israel claims to represent all Jews worldwide, making Jews targets
Israel weaponizes the Holocaust to justify oppression while claiming to prevent another one
Focus should be on scholarship and discussions on making Israel a normal democracy, not a Jewish state
Jews allying with Palestinians reinforces the perception that Jews worldwide are combatants against Palestinians
Israel has no standing to speak or act in the name of all Jews; they should be viewed as a separate state like China
If Israel made peace with Palestinians but still claimed to represent all Jews, it would still be problematic ideology
Zionism causes identity theft by claiming Israel as the nation state of all Jews worldwide
The solution is a one state democracy of Israelis, not a Jewish state
More scholarship is needed on convincing Israelis and Palestinians that a one state democracy is viable
Jewish allies of Palestinians reinforce propaganda that it's Jews worldwide against Palestinians
The conflict is between Israelis and Palestinians; Jews shouldn't be dragged into it
Transcripts
that's the thing with Zionism it's
contradictory the whole thing doesn't
make sense now how did it work the way
it worked is through propaganda the way
it worked is through tremendous
propaganda they insist that anti-zionism
is anti-Semitism Netanyahu wrote in his
book and aor liberman has an article on
Israel's own website you know we have.
goov they also have the same type of
thing Israel minister of for Ministry of
Foreign Affairs website and um Dan alone
said it and even Ben Shapiro no relation
to me thank God also said it he they
said the following uh if you want to
know what Zionism is a nutshell by the
way this is a very good formulation they
said anti-zionism is anti-Semitism
meaning that if you believe Israel
should not exist you're an anti-semite
and here's why Japan is to the Japanese
what France is to the French what Israel
is to the finish that uh equation it
should be what Israel is to the Israelis
right but it's not but that's without
Zionism with Zionism France is to the
French what Japan to the Japanese with
israels to the Jews now and just as you
can't say I want I'm in favor of having
a Japanese people but I don't want Japan
to exist you can't say that I I'm in F
favor of having having a French identity
in the people without France so too you
cannot say I'm in favor of having Jewish
identity without Israel that's Zionism
that's what they want you to say that's
what they want you to think yeah that's
what they want you to think and that's
why anti-zionism to them is
anti-Semitism and it's the conflation of
Jews and Zionism so we can all agree I
think we have enough people that agree I
don't have to convince anybody that
Judaism is not Zionism and conflating
the two is anti-Semitic there are two
types of people that conflate Jews with
zionists
zionists conflate Judaism with Zionism
anti-semites do it in order to
delegitimize Judaism by claiming that
it's Zionism and zionists do it in order
to legitimize Zionism by claiming it's
Judaism now we want to decouple that
that's the way to get rid of Zionism
very simple get decouple that but here's
a conversation first for the
Palestinians yeah and I've had this
conversation okay Mr pal Mr Palestinian
you you agree that you're your enemy
over here is not the Jews it's Israel
correct 100%
and the Jews have nothing to do with
this here's a question if so why are
Palestinians so happy when they find
Jewish allies jvp Jewish Orthodox Jews
let them find Israeli allies if France
is having a a war with Italy and there
are Italian people on France's side
that's meaningful for France every war
it works that way here if the issue is
if there's a war between Israel and the
Palestinians then the Jews Jewish voice
for peace doesn't make any sense sense
if there were Israeli voice for peace
that
would but we don't but they don't have
they don't have that there so what the
other Jews are trying to say is you
don't get to speak for all of us and if
you want to do that fine but we're going
to say we're Jews and we say never again
for Palestinians either right so here's
here's the problem with that when uh
Russia bombs Ukraine or Ukraine bombs
Russia they no the Jews aren't saying
that you don't get to speak for us
meaning if you go and you say Okay
Israel doesn't get to speak for us we're
saying never again for Palestinians too
does that mean that Israel is like
Ukraine to the Jews it's like China what
does it
mean that we don't want we don't like
this particular thing you're doing in
our name does Israel have standing to
speak in the name of the Jews just this
thing is bad or Israel is like China to
the Jews it's a different country it's a
different people you see right it would
be like CH if China were founded on
Jewish trauma no but Israel is not
founded on Jewish trauma said that they
were if they said that they were as
oppos it was founded on
colonialism but it was founded on
Zionism and if the Chinese would say
they really represent the Jews you think
that people would be fighting no they
wouldn't if R said believe them but no
but right so the answer is not to say
look when I was a kid people were
fighting against the Vietnam War
Americans uh protesting against it right
that doesn't mean that they believed
America is not their country that means
on the contrary because America is my
country therefore I feel a
responsibility now here's a question for
the leftist Jews let's say there would
be a two-state solution and everybody
would be happy Palestinians would be
happy and the Zionist would be happy
Israel would have 5% of their land and
the Palestinians would have
95% the Zions would have a little piece
in the negative right question is the
jvp happy sure why
not that's here there's the problem even
if the Palestinians are not in the line
of fire Zionism is the same Zionism it
still claims to represent the Jews it's
still the same ideology so these people
are not anti-zionist they are they are
just Pro Palestinian they don't like
that the zionists are harming
Palestinians but if the Zionist would
not harm Palestinians they would be okay
with Israel if the Palestinians are okay
with Israel well maybe it's a maybe it's
a triage and I mean I don't know what
they would say to that but maybe
certainly you can think that well the
biggest priority right now is to stop
doing this in our agreed so here's the
answer if the biggest priority is to
stop doing this in our name the zionists
love when there are leftwing Jewish
organizations doing this because they
tell people it's part of their
propaganda that these leftwing Jews they
agree that Israel is a Jewish State the
Jewish state they're just protesting
against it in the same way that
Americans protested against the war in
Vietnam so we have to get rid of that
what we need to do is we need to say
look we have nothing to do with with
this we Israel has no standing to speak
in the name of the Jews and this that
they are doing things in the name of the
Jews is just Insanity it's just like I
don't know like I think of the black
Hebrews speaking in the name of the Jews
they got into a fight with the
Palestinians nobody's going to say okay
don't do it in our name Jews have to
completely sever themselves from Israel
from Zionism in such a way to say look
if the Palestinians want allies there
are plenty of Israeli Americans to have
his allies which would recalibrates the
entire picture Israel versus
Palestinians Jews are not involved if
there's an Israeli that's not Jewish
Katie Hamas killed non-jews also at the
music festival right Tai Tai workers
right Tai absolutely and there was even
a Muslim woman with the head scarf that
they they are after Israelis that's what
they're after they're out there to to to
sure they didn't want to kill the the
Thai people but is so that your telling
me that they were after Jews or they
were after Israelis Israelis I doubt
that they're angry at Thai people if
people are saying they're anti-semites
they hate Jews it has nothing to do with
Israel the answer needs to be no they
hate Israelis has nothing to do with the
Jews or but but is that true or is that
not true the problem Israelis has
conflated it so even the when they say
the Jews they mean Israelis that's
absolutely true so the Jews but if a
Palestinian knows the difference between
Jews and Israelis who does he think his
enemy is Israeli exactly so if the
enemies are Israelis and if they know
the difference and if they their enemies
are Israelis and even if it's Jews it's
because they think Jews are Israelis it
should be our job to decouple the two to
tell everybody Jews are not Israelis we
have nothing to do with this Israeli
Americans if they want to side with the
Palestinians those are meaningful allies
but Jews it's one step forward and two
steps back because it reinforces the
perception
that it's Jews just like Americans
fought against the Vietnam War Jews are
fighting against the Israeli War I
understand what you're saying but
there's a calculation like there is a
calculation that needs to be made
because the question is which is more
important to the extent that I think
that people
are more open to Jews criticizing Israel
now that's problematic but it's more
open than what more open that
Israelis no I'm talking about Americans
how about Israeli Americans there are
plenty of Israeli Americans okay there
not enough of I'm if if you convince me
that if I stop talking about Israel and
Palestine that I'd be able to find like
replacements for all the Jews who were
talking about Israel Palestine then yeah
but but barring that to the extent that
I think it is making a difference in
other words for me what's more important
is helping Palestinians that's more
important to me than in the long run in
the long run Katie the help for the
Palestinians and for the Israelis and
for everybody in the world is to
separate Jews from zionists right that's
the whole problem over here but in the
meantime if we just jumped ship if we
just stopped then the only people
speaking in the name of Jews would what
about Americans what about no we we
should
say we should say we should say Israel
cannot speak in the name of Jews they
have no standing and they're talking is
like China right if somebody asks me
they've done it so many times who side
are you on Israel or the Palestinians I
said why are you asking me because I'm
Jewish I'm insult maybe they're asking
you because you talk a lot about Zionism
but that's not what if they ask me that
that's fine but if they come over to me
in the street and they come over to me a
guy did in Midtown Manhattan with a cell
phone he didn't speak English he was
using Google translate and he he tells
me uh encouragement for your country and
I tell him my country you mean America
you see but this is what happens I say
that if you don't want Israel to speak
in the name of the Jews and I don't it's
bad for us it's bad for it's bad for all
the Jews it's bad for the Palestinians
it's bad for everybody because so long
as Israel is able to say it's the Jews
that are fighting they are in a much
stronger position against the
Palestinians
correct yeah so if we but they won't but
but but it's like it's like you're
encouraging unilateral disarmament
because we don't have time to re-educate
people about the lack of connection
between in other words we we should chew
gum and walk at the same time yeah but
you see the problem is remember what I
said before that this whole the whole
success of Zionism that people don't
have time to think about anything yeah
there's that's the problem and your
previous guest just said we need a
conversation we need scholarship we need
all of this if we don't have time for
this forget it last 70 years my lifetime
I've heard this all the time there's Six
Day War there's yam Kiper War there's
this war there's that war there's never
any time to do anything right and and
therefore but each time every Jew gets
out there and says Jews for peace or in
whatever text they use that reinforces
with Israeli propaganda uses that to
reinforce the perception that the Jews
are the combatant against the
Palestinians and these Jews are like the
Americans like what like Jane Fonda
these are the Jane fondas of of the
Americans we don't want that we want to
decouple it so why can't we just say
look Israel has nothing to do with the
Jews you want to speak you want to be an
ally the Palestinian as an American as
Katie go right ahead fine but but to say
je as Jews what you're doing is you're
reinforcing Zionism and and therefore we
need to say if somebody wants to be on
the Palestinian side let them be on the
Palestinian side if somebody wants to be
on Israel side let be on isra I hear
what you're saying but I have a question
how many Jews I don't know this is not a
rhetorical question because I don't know
the answer what percentage of Jews live
in Israel about 50 so about 50% right so
okay depends who you consider a Jew it's
not so simple but let's say about
50% I
mean given that don't you think we do
have to do like get some heavy lifting
even if to explain but I'm saying we do
have to do heavy lifting we should be
running around telling everybody that
the Jews this is this is identity theft
that's what it is when they say right
okay when the war's over then you'll
have time identity theft we Israel has
nothing to do with the Jews the Jews
have nothing to do with Israel I'm an
American I don't like when Jonathan po
goes around saying that Jews should spy
for Israel let the let him say that the
Israeli Americans should spy for Israel
that's also wrong but at least it's not
at least it's it it it identifies who's
really the combatant over here so long
as they have this smoke screen that it's
the Jews then you have the Holocaust
then you have 2000 persecution could you
say we are going to speak out against
people who weaponized the Holocaust to
perpetuate more genocide we could say
that we PE weaponizing the Holocaust is
bad I wrote a whole chapter about it the
whole idea of fine 100% you could do
whatever you want you could speak about
whatever you want all I'm saying is that
non-jews could do the same thing
the Holocaust is not only the Jew don't
own the call self-loading as opposed to
anti-semitic which is a little bit
better right but all of this is not
worth it because it encourages Zionism
the idea that the Jews look how Biden is
talking look how it's the Jewish State
the Jewish that's the problem as you
cannot have a Jewish State and a
democratic State both that's the problem
correct fine if you cannot say have a
Jewish State and a democratic State and
if that is the core of the problem and I
believe it is and I think you agree
if you agree then the solution is to
make sure that no it's only a Jewish
State because people say it is if all
the if the Jews in the world and the
non-jews in the world would all say you
know they say that they're a Jewish
State that's like American Manifest
Destiny that's like the Aryan race
that's some the sun it's like a sun
theology it's like some crazy theology
but so long as we say no Jews having a
responsibility to speak up about about
what Israel does I say we chws our
responsibility speak up and say Israel
has no standing to speak in the name of
the Jews even if they do something good
I if and I say that if there was a
two-state solution and everybody was
happy the Palestinians and Israelis were
happy Israel would still be the same
Israel and I would be just as opposed to
it because it still claims to be the
nation state of the Jews Jonathan po
would still say what he says Zionism
would still be Zionism it's just that
the Palestinians would be out of the
picture so somebody that would be happy
with that doesn't really care about
Zionism and Jewish state and those
things that are really bad that's just
really an excuse to say okay stop
killing Palestinians yeah my anti
Zionism is mostly shaped by not wanting
people to be ethnically cleansed in the
name of it and the ethnic cleansing that
went into it like if Jews founded a
place and they wanted to have a
Theocratic thing and live somewhere and
make their own country as long as they
don't claim they're my country
that's a different story but but if even
if the Palestinians end up with 95% of
the land they're happy Israel still
claims they're your
country that 5% all right that's yeah I
would but that would be that would be
and that's the core of the problem
that's why there's a problem why doesn't
Israel just Annex the whole thing and
make the Palestinians citizens well they
can't have a non-jewish majority this is
the entire Crux of the matter is Israel
a democracy or is Israel a Jewish State
or the Jewish
State now the fact that there's no
country in the world that acts like
Israel in terms of their being the
Jewish state that they make us their
citizens they're using us as human
Shields I don't know why that doesn't
bother people it should bother them very
much aside from the idea of the thing
going on with the Palestinians and if we
attack I think the Crux of the matter to
say look no Israel You're Not the Jewish
State you need to act like a democracy
that you claim you are rather than say
you know what I don't like the genocide
as a Jew that's the as a Jew I'm
speaking against the genes what that
means is okay let's say I'm a Christian
I'm not Jewish all right let the Jews
deal with this why should I have to
speak up no it doesn't work that way
well because For Better or For Worse
people have been browbeaten into
listening to a certain voice and I deal
the way that I deal with this conflict
you're talking about is that what I
don't want to do when I say as a Jew ABC
as a Jew XYZ what I don't want to
suggest is if you're not a Jew you don't
have a valid point of view I don't want
to suggest that if you're not a Jew if
you're a pal Palestinian saying this
you're an anti-semite but I still am
happy to serve a utilitarian role
because I think I hear what you're
saying there's a side effect of that
utilitarian role in the long term you
are strengthening inadvertently the
ideology that's causing this whole
problem but it depends on which part of
the ideology right because for you the
worst the worst part for you is the
ideology that Israel is the Jewish State
the worst it's not a question of the
worst that's the core of all the
problems we all agree on that all saying
is if you want to stick up for the
Palestinians go right ahead but why do
you have to do it as a Jew do you admit
that that probably works propagandistic
even if you're saying in the long run
it's not worth it do you at least see
that there is some immediate value to it
I think the same value that Jane Fonda
had with the Vietnam War which was
marginal and it depends who you ask
right star power exactly they're all
that's a star power and you're a star
too so they they all you know there in
every war there are people that are on
on both sides the question is whose war
is this whose war is this moves I I I
totally go what you're saying but I do
think that like Craig mber who was at
the UN who resigned he said how inspired
he was by seeing what happened in Grand
Central Station um I I think here's the
thing here's the thing I think that
there are people who if a non-u says
something they will and I don't mean
like cynical zionists I mean like people
who don't understand that much maybe are
really Guided by fear or really
brainwashed they will take what a Jew
says about Israel more seriously or
they'll consider it with a more open
mind than they will a non-jew because
they they not not justifiably but they
think see everything as anti-semitic I
agree with that but and therefore if
given a choice as a Jew to speak you can
either say I don't like this particular
thing that Israel is doing in my name
versus Israel is not a Jewish State
altogether the fact that they are
speaking in the name of the Jews and
doing things in the name of the Jews is
wrong period not this particular thing
the fact that they are doing anything in
the name of the Jews they have no
business claiming to be the Jewish State
and therefore anything they do whether
they're committing genocide or or
charity in the name of the Jews is wrong
it's just identity theft you will be
fulfilling your that that uh that
benefit people will have that you're a
Jew talking but instead of just focusing
on one thing and coming across like Jane
Fonda you can come across like you would
if you somebody would tell you well why
don't you join the Hebrew the black
Hebrews he would say black Hebrews
they're not me what do you want from me
and and the same it would have the same
effect sooner or later but wouldn't
encourage Zionism we could accomplish
the same thing and more I I think that
see that's the question if Israel would
be happy and the Palestinian would be
happy would you still have a problem
with Israel I would forget about which
is the worst problem for a second would
there still be a problem I think a lot
of the uh anti-zionist activists aren't
really anti-zionists they're just anti
this particular thing Israel's doing
they're Pro they're Pro Palestinian
human rights they're Pro Palestinian
human rights but that's not really
anti-zionist and if we're going to
separate because if you'd have Zionism
without the Palestinian human rights
issue would you have a problem with that
so if you would not have a problem with
that if you have the state in the Middle
East claiming to be the state of the
Jews and the entire thing just the
Palestinians took over all of Egypt or
all of Gaza and all of the West Bank and
they're all happy let's say they're
happy right every you the International
Community rebuilds all the hospitals and
all the roads and it looks like a scene
out of the Jetson it looks like one big
Dubai all right and they're happy and
Israel's happy everything's okay no not
everything's okay because I still have a
Target on my back for whoever is going
to be Israel's enemies whoever it may be
I'm still being dragged into it Jonathan
poot is still telling people I have dual
loyalty that's Zionism Zionism is an
ideology it's not just colonialism it's
an ideology at that caused the
colonialism and because today if there's
a American Indian American a Native
American out there he could become an
American citizen he's as American as me
but you still will never be Jewish
you'll never be a national of that
country unless you're Jewish that's
Zionism right that ideology has got to
go in a peaceful way with no casualties
or minimal casualties that ideology once
that ideology is gone and Israel becomes
a normal country like all other
countries that becomes the country of
its citizens not the country of the Jews
guess what everything falls into place
right that that if you're talking about
scholarship and you're talking about
about uh discussions I think that needs
to be the discussion is is how do we get
Israel to become what Japan is to the
Japanese Fran is to the French Israelis
to the Israelis how do we move to that
one state how do we get to one state how
do we one state what Israel is to the
Israelis how do we get there from
Israelis to the Jews but it's not just a
question of one state to solve the
Palestinian problem if the Palestinians
would say I want two states right right
well luckily it doesn't seem like they
do so I think we have fine or let's say
the Palestinians will be willing to say
we're willing to be Israeli Citizens
We're converting to Judaism how's that
all the Palestinians will say we're
converting I know it's a theoretical I'm
just giving you a mind experiment yeah
would everybody be okay with this I
would not be okay with this because
Jonathan poed would still be saying what
he's saying and there would just be more
zionists out there not less right
Zionism is an ideology that's noxious
for everybody in the world including the
Jews and that's the core problem of
everything that we're seeing over there
what kind of country says that they
they're the states of other people and
if it's my country then it's not the
country of the Palestinians it's two
sides of the same coin it's either the
country of the Israelis or the country
of the Jews that is where our Focus
needs to be if you want to have a
discussion that's where the scholarship
needs to be Zionism is an ideology it's
not just like settler colonialism
colonialism that uh England wanted to
make an Empire when they freed the
slaves they had the same discussion you
can't free the slaves it's danger to all
the whites right they're going to you
know what they did to the slaves they
went to Africa kidnapped them took them
put them in Chains and they made him
into slaves but you know what if
you it worked how did it work how
where's the scholarship to figure out
how Israel can become a normal country a
democracy like anything else where are
the historical precedents for situations
I'm not a historian but there are people
who are where are the papers where are
the studies about this how in the world
can this work
how give me historical precedence go to
the Jews there are plenty of Jews that
would say one state will be great but
it's dangerous security reasons right
okay where's the evidence that it would
or wouldn't be a security problem what
if you go to the Palestines you tell
them look you know what Gaza is not Gaza
is not going to be free it's a question
of one Democratic state or nothing why
would you would you accept that or not
yes or no where are the studies where
are the surveys where's the effort all
the effort that's put in now to
discussing one state two State red state
blue State that's what I call it should
be put into discussing how to make
Israel into a normal democracy like
everything else but I don't see that
happening isn't I thought that that is
what most one state solution people want
like pet who we both that's fine moo
wants that but my question is where are
the studies to show the to address the
question the only obstacle to that one
state solution besides sism is the
security issue the same thing that
Thomas Jefferson said don't don't free
all the slaves because of a security
issue fine I want to see historical
precedents I want to see surveys AFA
South a I want to see I want to see
journals and and uh scholarship
convincing people that you know what it
would be a good idea it's doable even if
you have United Nation's forces put a
tank on every street corner uh my guess
last week you should be on with him I
should bring you both on together he
wrote a piece at foreign policy called
one the one two state is dead there will
be a one state I think but yeah there
there are a lot of Scholars who do that
but the the Orthodox Community is not a
monolith right because there are
Orthodox Jews who are
zionists those are the modern Orthodox
um okay they they're called modern
Orthodox but uh you won't find an
Israeli flag in any Orthodox School
except for the modern Orthodox they call
them they're like Zionist Jews someone
in the in the in the chat asked does
rabbi Shapiro's views on Zionism differ
from Rabbi yur David Weiss I'm not 100%
sure what Rabbi right what Rabbi David
Weiss's views are but I as opposed to
the Nur karta think that the N karta
like the left-wing zionists encourage
Zionism because why would a guy with a
beard imp payus that has no interest in
human rights issues anywhere in the
world go say an American if he's Israeli
is one thing an American go say
no fly a Palestinian flag and say okay
I'm an ally the Palestinians and why
would the Palestinians want a Jew as
opposed to as an Israeli all I
understand the answer to all these
questions but the side effect of all of
this is Zionism that's what it is that
these are the Jane fondas these are the
Jane fondas and just like with Jane fer
they said no you want Americans to get
killed remember the the story with her
with the tank yeah stupid of her to do
it but she didn't want anybody killed
whatever okay it's the exact same thing
happening with these people these jvp's
and the NAT caras they're the Jane
fonders of this uh conflict and the same
thing is happening but the problem is
it's not a Jane Fonda because Jane Fonda
was an
American right and it was American
fighting in Vietnam these people are
Jews they're telling people that they
are the Jane fondas but they're not
they're giving people the wrong
impression let Israelis if they want to
support the Palestinians I want to see
ivp Israeli voice for peace in America
even if there aren't enough there are
some there right Israelis in Israel
there are plenty of Israelis I'm GNA
have to I'm gonna have to become an
Israeli just so I can be an effective
anti-zionist Jewish advocate for
Palestinians then go ahead you don't
have to be Aliah you don't have to be
Jewish but you are not the and you said
you weren't sure if Hamas is after the
Jews or Hamas is after Israelis I think
they're after Israelis I just don't I
mean no actually I know they're after
Israelis because they said their problem
isn't with Jews it's with israelies okay
so there you go so if that's the case
why tell people that hamas's problem is
with Jews in other words okay hamas's
problem with Israelis I know that but
people are are taking the allies of the
Palestinians the Jewish allies are the
Palestinians and using that to promote
the idea that they are the Jane fonders
of of this conflict but they're not
they're not um Palestinians and they're
not Israelis that's who the conflict is
between and that's what everybody needs
to understand yeah okay but now now it's
also it's with the help of the United
States obviously so if you're saying
Americans oh there you go as an American
that's another story then AVP say
American Voice for peace and there are
plenty of Americans more than there are
Jews why don't you see why don't people
do that AVP but why is the Jay over
there every time there's a j involved
with I and P right yeah but aren't you a
little bit doing what you're saying you
shouldn't do because you're all because
you're saying you're
F China and they have no right to speak
in my name and I don't like Zionism
because it claims no different than
black Hebrews and no different than
Christian supersessionism that they are
the forces of the Jews but they're not
I'm claiming they're a joke what they
say that they're they say they're my
country it's not true it has nothing to
do with me it's China to me Israel is to
me like China there are Jews in Ukraine
they are Jews in Israel I don't fly a
Ukrainian flag I don't fly an Israeli
flag I don't fly a Palestinian flag I
don't fly a Russian flag I'm a American
as American and the next guy I fly
American flags if America has a fight
with Afghanistan if I'm on Afghanistan
side I'm gon to protest against the war
but as an American not as a Jew wouldn't
make any
sense and I say we need to bring the
public to a place where this makes as
little sense that Jews should be flying
Palestinian Flags or Israeli
flags as it would if they would be
flying Afghani Flags or American flags I
hear you with the Israeli flag and I
know you're going to disagree with me
but I still think that if for if you're
a Jew who and this is why it kind of
goes back to what it means to be a Jew
I'm not religious as you know my Jewish
identity and maybe this is just a sub
genre of identity like Woody Allen right
not that he's a moral Authority right
now obviously but in in what in Annie
Hall he meets that girl and he's like oh
Central Park West socialist summer camp
I don't remember what school very strike
oriented family so I am that stereotype
okay but Katie do you need to be an a
Jew to be that stereotype you could be
an American and you could
uh you could protest for social justice
as an American yeah you can the
Americans fought against taxation
without representations these guys were
Puritans you don't have to be a Jew for
that and if somebody does that does that
make them Jewish forget about your
identity for a second I'm saying that
why do you need to use your identity as
a Jew in order to promote those causes I
don't need to and I certainly when I was
growing up I never really did I didn't
even think of myself as very Jewish and
other people like you're even if you are
Jewish let's say you're the most Jewish
person in the world but why does that
jewishness have to it gets in the way
of Israel Palestine because you're not
Israeli you're not Palestinian as an
American as a human being you can be on
whatever side you believe Justice is but
as a Jew you don't add
anything okay and you ret and you
subtract I
think ah what what's the equation that
we're talking about the equation is
Israel is to the Jews what Japan is to
the Japanese no I mean when you say you
you don't add but you subtract well I'm
saying the the to the to the uh
elimination of Zionism from the face of
the
earth I don't know because you don't
think that having Jews be anti- Zionist
helps create a world in which Zionism
can be defeated more but you're not
anti-zionist you're anti- uh oppression
of the Palestinians that's the point F
you don't think that having Jews who are
pro Palestinian and critical of Israel
makes it easier for Israel to become one
state I think Israelis Israelis would
one Jewish State yes no I don't mean
Jewish State I mean one state has
nothing to do with Palestinians then say
Israel should become one state and not a
Jewish state if Israel would be at peace
again if the Palestinians would be happy
would you be doing this with the same
forget the same Gusto would you be doing
this I don't know exactly so if you
wouldn't be doing that then the point is
not one state the point is stop the
oppression of the Palestinians well they
go hand in hand maybe what if there's a
two-state solution theoretically that's
the question in other words if there's
two-state solution Palestinians are
happy you'd be happy even though Zionism
would be very strong Zionism would be
very strong with one in what in what
case two State solution Palestinians get
all of the Middle East except 5% of the
negative desert which becomes
Israel that's Zionism same thing just
Israel smaller and there's no palesi
Zionism no it has strong Army it says
it's the state of the Jews Jonathan Pard
saying that ktie Halper is uh loyal to
Israel and his dual C dual loyalty same
thing's happening just one thing is
different Palestinians aren't uh aren't
unhappy all right I have to think about
it more
okay uh I could keep talking but do you
have you have another I have another
podcast and I'm late they're gonna kill
me yeah thank you for this though we'll
have to continue this yes uh it was
great being here Katie yeah you too
thank you thank you so much please come
back though because I have a lot more
questions thanks okay that was great wow
fascinating discussion so much to think
about I didn't know it was going to go
in that direction I I agree and I also
you know not to you know just blow smoke
here Katie but um I can't recall another
instance on like your mainstream news
where I've I can't recall a pundit ever
being like I need to think about this
for a while and like and I I agree like
I I it's so much to take in that I can't
speak absolutely on what I think and
everything but I just think that that
speaks to how awesome the conversation
was yeah that it's something that I have
to think about because a lot of the time
I very quickly like know what I'm
thinking and everything and yeah really
appreciated discussion yeah and I also
feel like I've been told by people thank
you for what you're doing I don't mean
this in a self uh congratulating way
sure but I think I think it makes it
easier for anti- zionists who are not
Jewish to be surrounded by to not be the
to not have it so that the only
anti-zionists are not Jewish voices I
think it is a good buffer right no I I
agree like and I was thinking and again
I might evolve on this but I was just
thinking like in the short term Here and
Now
yes I can see the utility in that but
long-term big
picture I also see what he's saying
right too and that's something that
again that's what I need to like think
about to like Square in my own head but
someone said I do think it's dangerous
to disengage as Jewish allies your
Palestinian comates have vocalized their
support in the wake of smear campaigns I
I'm not GNA that's not that's not what
I'm thinking about I guess to me to me
it's clear that there like I said this
is triage like the immediate goal is to
stop the literal Massacre of
Palestinians so I'll do whatever it
takes and I don't I don't know if this
makes sense it was just a random thought
that I had uh written a few minutes ago
but I was thinking aloud like maybe
there is some utility in using your
jewishness in opposing what Israel is
doing simply
because uh Israel and the powers that be
are using jewishness right to justify or
you know excuse everything that Israel
is doing but then that's kind of like
fighting fire with fire and I don't know
if that makes I don't know I don't know
but I do care more about
Palestinians than I do I mean there is
some self-interest in this too in that I
don't want Israel when it commits
heinous crimes the first level is I this
is as a as a person and look I'm I'll be
real when I say as a Jew that's also
propagandistic I'm I'm totally honest
about that I mean it's true my Jewish um
identity was very much founded on never
again for anyone and I would argue that
historically speaking part of the reason
that there is a tradition of leftist
internationalist secular Jews is because
of anti-Semitism and because of a
diaspora tradition and because not
having a state ironically that itself to
internationalism but to me the most
important thing is if I were if I were
Buddhist I would say as a Buddhist stop
what Israel is doing but I I do feel
like then after that level and that's
the first level right
is the I don't want while Israel does
heinous things that will increase
anti-Semitism I want the world to know
that not all Jews I don't want to be a
moving Target right anti zionists so
yeah all interesting things I understand
where he's coming from but look the
truth is I know that people appreciate
it when Jews because the more Jews
criticize Israel the harder it is to
portray anti- Zionism as anti-Semitism
and the easier we're making the lives of
people who are out there and vulnerable
like again in the short term because you
know just talking about like us
mainstream media traditionally speaking
it seems like when people speak out like
that the go-to reply would be you know
you're an anti-semite or blah blah blah
and then having someone who is Jewish
doing that or leading that at least
potentially hopefully makes that smear
more difficult or not
effective
though still doesn't take away from me
not seeing what he's saying in the
larger picture
right anyway yeah
yeah I'm but I'm super glad that he said
he would be coming back because yeah
really interesting yeah finlen shapir
discussion would be interesting I mean I
also disagree with him on what makes a
Jew that's another thing but I
definitely enjoy talking to
him
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