Exposed: The Plot to Murder Dr Aafia - with Clive Stafford Smith
Summary
TLDRIn this compelling interview, Clive Stafford Smith, a tireless human rights lawyer, discusses the harrowing case of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui, a Pakistani neuroscientist imprisoned in the U.S. on dubious terrorism charges. Smith details the alleged conspiracy against her, the fabricated evidence, and the inhumane treatment she endures in prison. He also outlines the urgent need for public support, legal assistance, and funding to help secure her release and justice.
Takeaways
- 📜 The script discusses the case of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui, a Pakistani neuroscientist imprisoned in the U.S., and the ongoing efforts for her release and justice.
- 💼 Clive Stafford Smith, an attorney and human rights activist, is working on Dr. Siddiqui's case, aiming to challenge her conviction and sentence in U.S. courts.
- 🔍 Clive has been gathering evidence and testimonies from Afghanistan to prove Dr. Siddiqui's innocence and the alleged torture she faced while in U.S. custody.
- 📖 The script mentions a letter-writing campaign to support Dr. Siddiqui, which has been successful in raising morale and showing solidarity.
- 🤝 Clive is seeking a prisoner swap between Dr. Siddiqui and another individual, potentially facilitated by political influence and high-profile Pakistani Americans.
- 🚫 The U.S. government has been accused of lying about Dr. Siddiqui's case, including her whereabouts and the circumstances of her arrest and alleged crimes.
- 🏥 There are concerns about Dr. Siddiqui's treatment in prison, including allegations of sexual assault and lack of medical care, which Clive is trying to address.
- 👨👧👦 The whereabouts and well-being of Dr. Siddiqui's children, particularly her youngest son who disappeared during her detention, remain unknown and are a point of distress.
- 🤔 The script raises questions about the U.S. and Pakistani governments' roles in Dr. Siddiqui's case and hints at a conspiracy against her.
- 🌏 Clive's experiences in Afghanistan show a contrast between the portrayal of the Taliban in the West and the actual conditions on the ground, suggesting a need for more nuanced engagement.
- 💡 The discussion highlights the importance of international pressure, media coverage, and public support in human rights cases like Dr. Siddiqui's.
Q & A
What is the main issue discussed in the transcript related to Dr. Aafia Siddiqui?
-The main issue discussed is the incarceration of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui, a brilliant academic and mother, who is serving an 86-year sentence in the U.S. for an offense that seems barely credible. The discussion revolves around the alleged injustices and the conspiracy surrounding her case.
Why is Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's case considered an 'open wound'?
-Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's case is considered an 'open wound' because it symbolizes the inhumanity and barbarism of U.S. foreign policy and the alleged secret prisons and ghost prisoners that stain the reputation of powerful states.
What happened to Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's children after her detention?
-Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's children were separated from her. Her baby, Sulan, is presumed dead after being dropped on his head during their abduction. Mariam was taken to Kabul and forcibly adopted into a white American Christian family. Ahmed, an American citizen, was also taken to Kabul and put in prison at the age of six.
What is the significance of the letter writing project mentioned in the transcript?
-The letter writing project was initiated to show support for Dr. Aafia Siddiqui by encouraging viewers to write letters of encouragement that would be delivered to her, helping to lift her spirits and show her that she is not forgotten.
What is the role of Clive Stafford Smith in Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's case?
-Clive Stafford Smith is Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's lawyer, who has been working tirelessly to secure her release and improve her treatment. He has been involved in fact-finding missions to Afghanistan and is seeking to challenge her conviction and sentence in U.S. courts.
What is the alleged conspiracy regarding Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's arrest in 2008?
-The alleged conspiracy suggests that there was a plan to kill Dr. Aafia Siddiqui and her son outside a mosque in 2008 by dressing the child in a jacket resembling a suicide vest and then shooting them, with the intention of planting evidence to implicate her in a terrorist plot.
What are the challenges faced by Clive Stafford Smith in seeking justice for Dr. Aafia Siddiqui?
-The challenges include the U.S. government's denial of her being in U.S. custody, the difficulty in proving events that occurred in secretive places like Bagram, and the American system's difficulty in granting justice once a conviction has been established.
How has the treatment of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui in prison been described in the transcript?
-The treatment of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui in prison has been described as awful, including instances of rape, sexual assault, and a lack of medical care and religious guidance.
What is the significance of the mention of the Taliban in the transcript?
-The mention of the Taliban is significant as it highlights the current Afghan government's stance and treatment of individuals like Dr. Aafia Siddiqui. It also underscores the need for dialogue and understanding between the West and the Afghan government.
What actions are being taken to help improve Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's situation?
-Actions being taken include raising funds for her legal case, seeking clemency, and attempting to engineer a prisoner swap between Dr. Aafia Siddiqui and another individual. Additionally, there are efforts to bring attention to her case through media and public support.
Outlines
📜 AIA's Ongoing Struggle for Justice
The paragraph discusses the case of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui, a Pakistani academic imprisoned in the U.S. for an alleged crime that is questioned by the speaker. It highlights the lack of credibility in the U.S. government's narrative and the challenges faced in seeking justice for Siddiqui. The speaker mentions the impact of Siddiqui's case on the perception of U.S. foreign policy and the importance of the case in exposing the inhumanity and barbarism associated with it. Additionally, the paragraph touches upon the efforts of Clive Stafford Smith, a lawyer who has been working on Siddiqui's case and other similar cases, including the release of prisoners from Guantanamo Bay.
👶 The Tragic Fate of Aafia Siddiqui's Children
This paragraph delves into the details of the abduction of Aafia Siddiqui and her children in Karachi in 2003. It describes the tragic fate of her youngest child, Sulan, who may have died from injuries sustained during the abduction. The experiences of her other children, Mariam and Ahmed, are also discussed, with Mariam being forcibly adopted by an American family and Ahmed being imprisoned in Kabul despite being an American citizen. The paragraph also touches on the allegations of torture that Siddiqui faced in U.S. custody and the ongoing efforts to prove her innocence.
🚨 Conspiracy and False Accusations Against Aafia Siddiqui
The narrative continues with an account of a conspiracy against Siddiqui, involving a plan to kill her and her son in a staged suicide bombing, with the intention of framing her as a terrorist. The paragraph describes how this plan was foiled and how Siddiqui was taken into custody instead. It also addresses the false accusations made against her by U.S. officials, including claims that she attempted to murder two U.S. officials in Afghanistan. The speaker provides evidence that contradicts these accusations, such as the lack of gunshot residue and the presence of bullet holes in the alleged crime scene.
🤝 Seeking International Support for Aafia Siddiqui
In this paragraph, the speaker discusses the international efforts to secure justice for Siddiqui, including the collection of letters from supporters and the raising of funds for her legal defense. The speaker also mentions the challenges faced due to the blacklisting of his nonprofit organization and the importance of continuing to advocate for Siddiqui's case. The paragraph emphasizes the need for public support and the impact it has on Siddiqui's morale and the overall case.
🏥 Aafia Siddiqui's Harsh Treatment in Prison
The focus of this paragraph is on the deplorable conditions and treatment Siddiqui has faced in prison. It details the lack of medical care, the absence of spiritual guidance, and the instances of sexual abuse that Siddiqui has allegedly suffered. The speaker calls for attention to these issues and the need for legal action to improve Siddiqui's situation and ensure her humane treatment.
🔍 Investigating Aafia Siddiqui's Case in Afghanistan
The speaker recounts his visits to Afghanistan to investigate Siddiqui's case, highlighting the discovery of a conspiracy to kill her and plant evidence to implicate her in a terrorist act. He describes meeting various witnesses and gathering statements that support Siddiqui's innocence. The paragraph also addresses the challenges of seeking justice in the U.S. legal system and the need for early intervention to prevent further injustice.
📜 Legal and Humanitarian Efforts for Aafia Siddiqui
This paragraph outlines the speaker's legal and humanitarian efforts to secure justice for Siddiqui. It discusses the intention to challenge her conviction and sentence in U.S. courts, the pursuit of clemency, and the possibility of a prisoner swap. The speaker also emphasizes the need for political influence and the support of Pakistani Americans to facilitate these efforts.
🌏 Bridging the West and Afghanistan Through Sports
The speaker shares his experiences in Afghanistan and the positive interactions he had with the local government and people. He discusses the potential for fostering civil society connections between the West and Afghanistan, particularly through sports like cricket. The paragraph highlights the importance of engaging with Afghanistan's people as human beings and the opportunities for cultural exchange and understanding.
📬 Engaging the Public in Aafia Siddiqui's Support
The paragraph calls upon the public to support Siddiqui through various means, including sending letters of encouragement, raising funds, and using their talents to assist in her case. The speaker emphasizes the need for legal help, media coverage, and the involvement of high net worth individuals to contribute to the cause.
🗣️ Challenging Prejudice and Seeking Dialogue
The final paragraph addresses the issue of prejudice and misunderstanding, particularly in the context of the West's perception of Afghanistan and the Taliban. The speaker encourages dialogue and understanding, rather than vilification, and highlights the importance of working together to improve the situation for Siddiqui and others in similar circumstances.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Aafia Siddiqui
💡Guantanamo Bay
💡Bagram
💡Inhumanity
💡Legal Advocacy
💡Prisoner Swap
💡Torture
💡Blacklisting
💡Rule of Law
💡Human Rights Abuses
💡Fact-Finding Mission
Highlights
The American government has been accused of lying about the case of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui for many years.
Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's incarceration is seen as a symbol of the inhumanity and barbarism of US foreign policy.
Clive Stafford Smith, a lawyer, has been working to secure the release of prisoners from Guantanamo Bay and to hold Western powers accountable to the rule of law.
A letter-writing campaign was successful in sending messages of support to Dr. Siddiqui, which had a positive impact on her morale.
Fundraising efforts for Dr. Siddiqui's legal case have been met with generosity, despite repercussions for the non-profit involved.
Dr. Siddiqui's case involves allegations of abduction, torture, and a conspiracy surrounding her ordeal, including the mysterious death of her infant son.
Witnesses have come forward with compelling evidence that contradicts the US government's narrative about Dr. Siddiqui's time in custody.
There are claims of a conspiracy to kill Dr. Siddiqui and frame her as a suicide bomber, which was thwarted by a local tailor named Muhammad Azal.
The US government's case against Dr. Siddiqui is criticized for its lack of evidence, including the absence of gunshot residue and shell casings.
Efforts are being made to challenge Dr. Siddiqui's conviction and sentence in US courts, as well as to seek clemency.
A potential prisoner swap involving Dr. Siddiqui and a man named Afia, who helped the Americans kill Bin Laden, is being explored.
Dr. Siddiqui's treatment in prison has been harsh, with allegations of rape and sexual assault, and a lack of medical and spiritual care.
The importance of media attention and public support in bringing about justice and improving conditions for Dr. Siddiqui is emphasized.
Clive Stafford Smith's experiences in Afghanistan show a disconnect between Western perceptions and the reality on the ground.
The need for civil society connections and cultural exchanges, such as cricket matches, to foster understanding between Afghanistan and the West is suggested.
The transcript calls for a multifaceted approach to help Dr. Siddiqui, including legal assistance, funding, and public support.
Transcripts
apparently you know the the thinking Muslim audience of dubious people who I shouldn't
associate with so this is very compelling and there's a lot of other Witnesses coming forward
on this the American government has just lied about that for the last many years the only
reason that didn't happen was I met a guy in gazy called Muhammad since we last spoke you've
been to Afghanistan and you've pieced together some of the missing parts in in this case it's
a real challenge to get Justice in America what is it about AIA that subjects her in particular
to such awful treatment how do the Taliban treats you you know if you believe that you believe in
santaa the case of AIA sadiki remains an open wound for all of us it symbolizes the
inhumanity and barbarism of US foreign policy the incarceration of This brilliant academic and
mother of free has become a marker of its excesses of which there are many she languishes in prison
serving an 86-year sentence for an offense that looks barely credible the attempted murder of
two US officials in Afghanistan in 2008 her whereabouts before that date has been hotly
contested but her lawyers and activists have patched together the conspiracy surrounding Dr
Aria's ordeal sadly the welfare of her younger son suan who has not been seen since her detention in
2003 remains unknown he's presumed dead the last time I spoke to Dr Aria's lawyer Clive Stafford
Smith he had returned from her prison in Forth Worth Texas where she had been reunited with
her sister FIA for the first time in 20 years if you haven't watched that program I would highly
recommend you do so to give you the backstory to this horrific case plive has just returned from a
fact-f finding mission to Afghanistan and he has some considerable updates on aia's case Clive has
helped secure the release of 86 prisoners from Guantanamo Bay and still acts for the remaining
numbers since the early days of the war on terror he has worked tirelessly to force the Americans
and other Western powers to adhere to the rule of law he has sought to uncover the secret prisons
and ghost prisoners that stain the reputation of powerful states Who present their Wars in
benevolent terms Clive Stafford Smith welcome back to the thinking Muslim it's great to have you here
with us well it's a great pleasure to be here and I must say your last last program was very good
and I've got so many nice messages from so many nice people so thank you on our last program you
requested a letter writing um project I suppose for our viewers where uh you requested that they
write in letters that you would take uh because of legal Powers You' be able to take to to AIA
mean how successful was that did that work well it was fabulous actually I I got a lot in what I do
is people send me emails and I just cut and paste them into a letter from me um and I sent her one
letter which was about 60 pages so probably 200 pe people's letters fantastic and I got that into her
and she really was thrilled uh because people say such awful things to her and there she was
with this massive letter from me and she just got to read them back and I have another 72 Pages now
but please don't let let that slow you down uh you I'll give you my better and newer email this time
if you don't mind broadcasting it yeah and the more people send me the better I'll put that email
in the show notes and we'll we'll make sure we'll send a request out to our viewers to to send that
how about um the last time we spoke also you were raising funds for the legal cover for her case I
mean how how's how's that going are you have we well again actually people were very generous to
support the the costs of the case yeah um it has had a certain repercussion on my nonprofit that
I've now been blacklisted apparently you know the the thinking Muslim audience of dubious
people who I shouldn't associate with I'm proud to associate with you and I'm going to litigate
my black listing in due course there's just a pain in the neck you know it's just one of these stupid
things they've been doing it for years yeah and it's no joy but um we're get around it fantastic
now Clyde many of my viewers may not have seen may not have watched the original show where you went
into great detail about aia's case from the very beginning when she was abducted in 2003 to today
where she languishes in an American prison uh do you mind just giving us a quick summary of Aria's
case uh for for for our new viewers sure let me just hit the highlights or low lights yeah what
sets off here aside from all the other people I've represented over the last 20 plus years
is that on March the 30th 2003 she was abducted in Karachi with her three children so she had
six-month-old sulan three-year-old Mariam and six-year-old Ahmed um and they were all seized
as they were driving to the airport and she was just going to Islamabad from Karachi and uh it
appears that when they were seizing the four of them they dropped the baby on its head and that
may have killed the baby and I always thought that must be the truth until I learned what happened to
the others so Mariam was taken from Karachi to Kabul where she was forcibly adopted into
a white American Christian family on the bizarre presumption that being a white Christian American
was somehow Superior to being a um Pakistani Muslim of color just crazy crazy crazy but
at least you know there those mad people who have that belief yeah um and it had happened in another
case since then but with Ahmed the thing I just can't understand on any level is both Mariam and
ammed were American citizens and Ahmed was taken to Kabul where age six he was put in a prison wow
now I just can't fathom that there's not even the sort of crazy rationale that there was with Mariam
and I've met with people in cabal to to prove that and that's coming along it's difficult to
prove what was going on in these secretive places but I've got a lot of good help on that then afia
was taken to um Afghanistan herself where she was tortured for five years taken by by the US so the
US had paid a bounty for Aria $55,000 yes uh which was happening to a lot of people at the time but
not to any other women in a high-profile case the US government has denied all along that she was
in US custody that is risible but but we have to prove it sometimes we have to prove the sun rises
every morning yeah um in this case I have managed to prove it it's been great in Afghanistan I met
a guy called Salim cuche who was just a lovely guy he means Nomad his name and he was clearly someone
who disobeyed all the American rules when he was in custody himself in backround yeah he was up
in isolation in the cells on the second floor uh and she was AIA was in the cell next door and he
got to be able to communicate to her yeah so he was the one who first heard about this uh
and then while I was sitting talking to Saleem in the Intercontinental Hotel in uh in cabal I
don't want you to think it's terribly Grand it's not it was Grand in 1960 been not since then yeah
I B I like the people there and I was sitting there and the governor of pania comes by and
really nice guy speaks good English and came to say hello he then turns to Saleem and says oh I
haven't seen you since Bagram and it turns out that Saleem came downstairs to the cage they
were being held in and told the governor about AIA being upstairs the governor and others then
told those four guys who escaped from Bagram who then recorded the video about it back in 2005 so
this is very compelling and there's a lot of other Witnesses coming forward on this how did they know
was it was AIA in Vel well but she said so she was you know she only spoke English in heru but
they could communicate yeah um and so that's very important because the American government has just
lied about that for the last many years yeah and they've lied to everyone they haven't just lied
to you know the Pakistani people they've lied to their own prosecutors in their trial they lied to
the judge they lied to the jury so that's very important then the other thing is so she's then
let out of Bagram when they finally discover that she's really not a nuclear bomb maker um they let
her out but what we've discovered is this by then her sister FIA who is a fabulous woman who uh has
a you know she's a neurologist she's incredibly well educated if I ever get in trouble I want FIA
to be my sister because she's been great uh she had stirred up so much publicity for afia and the
kids by 2008 that this was a huge embarrassment yeah mainly to the Pakistan government the
Americans honestly wouldn't care yeah why an embarrassment to the Pak because they they were
the ones who sold so it was President masari's people who sold her and he was still in power at
the time so so it it seems clear I'm not going to name names on your program but um I think I've now
able to prove that there was conspiracy to make sure that afier and Ahmed were killed right and
the way it was planned was this she was put on a bus from cabul to GNE she was told she could
have her daughter Mariam back if she went to gazy and sat outside this mosque she was given this boy
who you know she'd been tortured for 5 years she wasn't sure if it was Ahmed or not it was Ahmed
but Ahmed had been threatened for 5 years that if he ever said he was Ahmed um sadiki uh they would
kill him so even he wouldn't tell his mom that it was him but they're on a bus together going to
gazy to get the daughter in theory but that's not what's going to happen right this is all designed
for her to be killed as a suicide bomber they've dressed the child up in a jacket with four big
Pockets with big bits of fruit in it yeah it's July the 17th 2008 it's the middle of summer
he doesn't need a jacket yeah but the jacket is obviously designed to look like some sort
of suicide jacket she's in a full shador so you can't see what's on underneath yeah someone has
called in uh a call to say that the suicide bomb is sitting outside the mosque and then all the
cops show up with their AK-47s and they're just going to shoot him the only reason that didn't
happen was I met a guy in gazy called Muhammad azal Muhammed just delightful guy he was a tailor
right across the street from the um mosque yes and he'd seen this woman sitting there she was there
for S hours or so right and he'd seen her there people had gone up and tried to talk to her but
she only spoke heru and they all spoke you know FY or whatever yeah and so he went out in the
end and he spoke do because he had been a tailor during his trade around Pakistan and he talks to
her and says you know it's getting dark it's a war zone you really shouldn't be out here you could
go stay with my mother or whatever yeah that's when the police show up and when they're going
to shoot her this man stands between her and the guns and says you got it all wrong um and I have
so much respect for that guy he saved Alia's life so they don't shoot her they take her into custody
they then take her to the police headquarters now this is where it all gets very interesting they
say the Americans say that she was being held at the Afghan National Police Headquarters yeah when
they came and one they came into the room where she was behind a curtain and one of the the uh
soldiers put his M4 rifle on the ground you know if you believe that you believe in Santa CLS but
yes at any rate she supposed ly snatches up the in Rifle and starts shooting at them as if she'd
know where the safety catch do you know where the safety catch is on no you're not a great terrorist
there so neither do I by the way I do now because I went and checked one out um but they say she was
trying to shoot two Americans it's total nonsense there's no gunshot residue on her her fingerprints
are knocked on the gun there's no gunshot residue on the curtain they say there are two bullet holes
in the wall but we checked that out and actually there's a video of the wall earlier in the day and
the two holes are up there there's no bullets in the wall there's no shell casings there's
no nothing so that's a lie yeah what really happened was that she was in that room behind
the curtain hears American voices and thinks oh my goodness they're going to take me back to to
Bagram she Peaks around the curtain one of them sees her and says she's on the loose and shoots
her the had just been another incident where um where a soldier had been accused of killing
someone without justification and had been put on a criminal trial yeah so they're all very paranoid
about that so they make up the story but she was meant to be dead and they were going to plant this
evidence on her and I always thought that was probably true but I didn't have any proof I do
now yeah um because they say that she had on her a bag with some proof about nuclear weapons Pro
biological weapons well I met the police officer who wrote an inventory of what was in her bag
when she was arrested yeah and his inventory says women's clothing no mention of you know all this
other stuff um but we now have and and also the Americans said in her trial that the governor of
gazy brought all the material of nuclear weapons and so forth and showed it to the Americans and
gave it to them which which I always thought was pretty weird but you don't do that in a criminal
case I met the governor of gazy he gave me a sworn statement saying this is nonsense the guy who says
it I don't even know who he is I didn't have any of the evidence but now we've also got evidence
of another person who was on the bus with AIA with a bag which clearly contained all of that material
and what was going to happen was they were going to shoot AIA and her son they were then going to
plant this material on her and then the story in the Pakistan media would have been evil Al-Qaeda
woman going to blow herself up with her son yeah what an evil person you know she was killed that
was what was meant to happen when you say they uh are we talking about the Americans we're talking
about pakistanis the Afghan government at the time who are we talking about the Afghan government
had nothing to do with it no I'm not going to name who it is because they know who they are
I know who they are yeah but part of this is about convincing the people behind this that if they'll
just go along with us getting Justice for AIA no one needs to know about it okay uh who they are
but on the other hand if they don't I'm going to have to disclose it yes and I should say I just
want to make this very clear that there are people in Pakistan to this day who are threatening the
family of AIA including her sister her children you it's not going to do do you any good I'm
representing AIA right it's not what I do is not their fault um those people again I'm not naming
them abducted um aia's sister not long ago and put a hood over her head to try to convince her
that she should stop trying to get Justice for her sister recently this Hasen Rec this was recently
really um I'm not here again to speak for FIA I have great respect for that woman but I've told
her and I want to tell everyone else that I'm aia's lawyer I'm not fia's lawyer yeah so what
what I do is not fia's fault yeah if they want to abduct someone they can abduct Me I don't really
care I'm old enough that I've had a good life but um but they shouldn't be doing that to the family
that's just very wrong yeah so so let me get the the picture so since we last spoke you've been to
Afghanistan and you've pieced together uh some of the missing parts in in this case so you what the
big Discovery you've made is uh there's a couple of discoveries but it seems to me that uh you're
convinced that there was a conspiracy to kill Aria in 2008 outside that mosque MH um and they
would plant evidence on her in order to implicate her in some sort of suicide mission and and then
the narrative would be sown that Aria was part of his greater uh terrorist conspiracy um uh
how convinced are you of the uh plausibility of people like Muhammed and and others that you've
met Muhammed is absolutely telling the truth and you know I should say I've got a lot of statements
from a lot of people I've been I've been there twice now and I'm going to go back again in late
April yeah um and it's not just the people I'm mentioning to you I've got statements from a
number of other people there were six people who witnessed what happened six people got statements
from there probably more what happened outside the mosque there's 200 people who were in The Police
Headquarters who witnessed all of that wow um and then there were many many people in Bagram and the
other places so we'll have a lot of evidence we've already got a lot yeah but um there are
problems for in the American system if you don't get Justice early on in the US system it's quite
hard to get it I'm going to America in two days to bring back the the wife of one of my clients who
was sentenced to death wow 38 years ago yeah I've proven exactly who did it I've got a judge at one
point issued order saying that he was innocent but that's not enough to set him free in the American
system yeah U and his wife who's 84 I'm going to go pick her up and bring her back to come and live
with me my wife endorse it because she's just been through enough so it's a real challenge to
get Justice in America yes but we will and but we've also got to look at the broader picture
which is how to get better treatment for Aria in the meantime so let's uh we'll come to Aria's Uh
current situation where she is now in in Forth Worth in in in Texas but just so that I understand
uh what you're piecing together here well actually why are you peace investigat what's the ultimate
end are you trying to seek redress in the courts for for Aria based on the statements that you're
compiling well there are various things that we need to do one is I want to challenge her
conviction and her sentence in the US courts in the US courts in the southern district of
New York the judge was a guy called judge Burman um and he was lied to and he imposed this 86y old
886e sentence yeah on the premise that Aria was wandering around as an Al-Qaeda terrorist for
five years where we can now prove that know she was being tortured in US custody yeah right now
as things stand she is facing more time in prison than HED shik Muhammad yeah who is in Guantanamo
and as I'm sure you know is accused of being the person behind 911 now you know the chances are
that he won't do as much time as as AIA because he's getting mitigation on his sentence because
it's now conceded that the Americans tortured him yeah and so the same should clearly happen to Aria
even if they don't accept that she's innocent as they should do she should get Mitigation Of Her
sentence because of what she's been through and I think everyone including halik Muhammad would
agree that she's been through worse than he has yeah because of her children and what happened
to them so that's that's one line I'm going to go back to Course in New York to do that but then at
the same time I'm aim aiming towards clemency as well Biden is up for reelection on November the
5th yes um on November the 6th we'll know if it's President Biden or president Trump yeah
my bet is it'll be president Trump that means that Biden has 10 weeks between then and Trump
taking office in January the 21st yeah and in those 10 weeks he can do justice and we need
to get through to him through people I know but also through high-powered Pakistani Americans
uh in order to get the message across that they should settle this and and I think I mentioned to
you before and it's still my goal to engineer a prisoner swap between her and Shaquille AF Frei
who was the guy who helped the Americans kill Bin Laden the Americans want him the Pakistani well
at least 98% of the pakistanis want afia so if we can engineer that swap in November that'll be good
and have you made any progress in engineering but swap between the two well I've met with
some congressmen and Senators staffers um to try to set that in motion and we've got this really
great judge in Islamabad who's been ordering the Pakistan Ministry of Foreign Affairs to basically
do their job and help me yeah and so they are now working with me to try and get political influence
in America to to engineer that swap I hope we can do it it's a lot of work but there we go um
earlier on you mentioned that she's been treated far more harshly than most guanimo daines like KH
shik Muhammad why like what is it about AIA that subjects her in particular to such awful treatment
in the hands of the Americans I mean look there was a time when Guantanamo would rank as one of
the worst prisons in the world um I brought the very first case against grantan in 2002 yeah um
and over the last 22 years we forced the United States to treat people much better in Guantanamo
and while it's not a Caribbean holiday Camp I mean it is my holiday Camp I've been there 42 times um
but I love going there because I like to meet the people but it's a much better place in many ways
uh than the prison that she's in really because FMC Carwell there's just no over sight of it there
have been 13 guards convicted of raping prisoners in in cell in the last few years and afia has been
on the receiving end of both rapes and sexual assaults and I've brought a um complaint to
the Bureau of Prisons which they're investigating about what's happened to AIA but that's on top and
it happens all the time it happens routinely uh and that's on top of being in prison she's being
abused in prison all the time so we've got to stop that uh and that's quite a challenge so why has
this been allowed to continue for so long you know she's been in prison since 2008 and um you said it
you suggested last time and you've confirmed it here again that she's been treated awfully
in prison like what's what's allowed that to continue for so long a big part of it is there's
no spotlights um you know it is the spotlight of attention that gets people to to behave in these
that does work the attention I mean it works somewhat I mean they're still horrible places
yeah but the reason all of this sexual abuse goes on is no one's challenging it and they they they
annoyed me one time I was I've been to see her eight times now yes and um one time they made me
wait for an hour and I was annoyed because I had better things to do than sit them and so I looked
through their visitation log and they had only had four legal visits for almost 1,000 prisoners
976 prisoners yeah four legal visits since I'd last been there wow at that rate each prisoner
is going to have one legal visit every 80 years and this is why people get away with doing such
bad stuff as you give people power they tend to abuse it and it's really important to have um you
know people like me there to say no you can't do that yeah and so it's a real challenge they they
have no Imam in the whole prison there's no one to be there as her spiritual guidance or whatever
yeah they don't have any doctors who can see her because you know she's a conservative Muslim woman
she's not going to just you know undergo strip searches all the time so she's getting no medical
care she's getting no um religious Solace uh so we got to force those issues but it's shocking
to me that they haven't been forced long ago when we last spoke you you had just returned
from a visit where FIA her sister for the first time had uh been able to meet her in in in in in
at that prison um and uh I think I remember you suggested that that had really helped felia state
to aier state of mind I mean what is a general state of mind since then well thousand was there
it was rather sweet I I was there for the whole of the meetings just to make sure it happened and um
but I buted out and just let these two sisters talk and they ended up singing nursery rhymes
that they used to sing on the school playground and that was great it was at some level very
traumatic for both of them for FIA because she was seeing her wonderful intelligent younger sister
treated that way for AIA because she was seeing her sister for the first time in 20 years and a
is sort of Frozen in Time right when she thinks of her children she thinks of them at age 6 months 3
years and six years uh and it's very difficult for her to think otherwise because she's had
all of this trauma yeah um so we I got FIA to go another time we went again in December and this
was a bit of a disaster I mean the first time I flew to Dubai and flew with her into America and
so everything went smoothly I thought would sort of potty train the US government a bit so she was
safe to go by herself no she was stopped at the airport and forced to sit there for 4 hours while
they determined whether she was a terrorist or not then when we got to the prison the first day
I took her in and I was just going to leave her there to meet with her sister and you you just
don't know whether to laugh or cry they couldn't find the key to the visitation room in the prison
you know can you imagine being in a prison they can't find a key yeah so her whole visit was
cancelled having come you know 13,000 kilometers um I managed to get her in a couple of other times
for for meetings at a cost of you know I couldn't see AIA for those times um but it's just a mess
and FIA was very upset by the whole thing and so we've been litigating to force the US to treat
her better next time so I hope to take her back you know sometime over the summer because I think
it's very good for everyone great um and um you've been to Afghanistan now on a couple of occasions
on your fact finding Mission you're trying to find out about the detail of aia's arrest and and the
horrific things that happened there at Bagram and elsewhere um I suppose my my question about your
visit to Afghanistan is it's obviously a chang place since the Americans left um did you have
any worries or do you have any worries about your security when you arrived and how did the Taliban
treat you for example look I've lived in America I don't have any concerns about Afghanistan I mean
it look I went to Afghanistan on another Afghan prisoner from guantanamo's case back in 2017
yeah and it was horrible it was you couldn't do anything this is dur the American now it's fine
I and it was interesting I we should do a whole program on Afghanistan at some point because it
was very very eye open the government were great they half of them have been in Guantanamo so they
really understand what this is about which is more than you can say for the British government or
the Americans um the security is absolutely fine they were really nice to me and um they insisted
I should have security along with me but totally unnecessary in fact I told the security guy I said
look I'm going to Texas next week I need you to come there not here um the there's a real
disconnect between Afghanistan and the west and one thing actually I wanted to try to help them
on is get American lawyers to represent them because for example there's 8 billion dollars
of Afghan money Frozen by the Americans for the American victims of the Afghan war well I think
there's a lot more Afghan victims of the Afghan war um but the current Afghan government I think
doesn't understand how to deal with the West in that way yeah and I had interesting conversations
about what the perception is in the west and yeah you look at Britain or you look at America
there's only one perception which is the Taliban are a bunch of maniacs and they treat women badly
and so forth um I don't disagree that we need to treat women um better than I think are currently
or in a different way should we say than is currently happening in Afghanistan I'm all in
favor of women's education and obviously and there are plenty of people in Afghanistan who
would agree with that but what we're doing in the west is we're so vilifying the people in Authority
there that we're not having a discussion in the same language and it's very interesting to hear
the side of some of the people I talked to there because I I would say you know wasn't trying to
rubbish them for not having women's education that's not terribly persuasive but I was saying
you know there are views in the west and and one of them said well you know we have similar
views about the West we think the West treats poor people incredibly badly in a capitalist system we
think that whole system's mad well I tend to agree with them frankly um so you know there's just a
disconnect and we need to start looking for points of agreement and so the points of disagreement
and we need to help the Afghan government they're they're doing okay economically they're given all
the sanctions they're doing better than Pakistan but we need to help reintegrate them into the
world society instead of just sanctioning them and telling all of them they're evil I me you've been
to Afghanistan is there a space to Foster some form of Civil Society connections between say
British people and and and oh huge opportunity I was I was planning I don't think I'll get it done
this time but I was planning on taking a cricket team out there oh yeah oh they're mad about
Cricket I love this I'm mad about Cricket right and everywhere you go I was there in you know when
was it February it was minus33 degrees and they were playing Cricket everywhere in the snow I mean
I admire that um and I think it's really important for us to reach out one of my Guantanamo Clin was
the founder of the Afghan Cricket Association right and yeah they've had cricket teams men's
and women's and they're great and they beat England in the world cup so I think there are
ways that we can really reach out to people as human beings and then let everyone come and see
the Afghanistan that I saw and then engage engage in ways that'll make things better for everyone so
back to uh Dr apia's case now um uh as you know our viewers are more than ready to help uh you
in any way they can and I think the majority of Muslims that I speak to and actually wider
non-muslims who care about this case majority of us really don't know where to help how to help um
uh can you summarize what help you still require legally funding wise what help you require and and
how can be ordinary I know you you you contested that term the last time we met but how can the
ordinary person help you and help AIA make a difference here like dare say I would say that
everyone has talents that makes them extraordinary and I can I can abuse anyone's talents that that'
be great now look there are basically three or four areas first please do continue to send her
letters of encouragement and make them detailed don't make them one line make them why you're
inspired by what she's gone through because that really helps her and it really helps her to know
that people on the outside know who she is care about her and and liiz her I mean I think that's
really good for her yeah second she did she know that before she had no idea she thought
she was totally forgotten really and so that's fabulous and uh and I think of all the things
I've achieved thus far that's probably number one in my view yeah um the second issue is that
um we do need help we need particular help in reaching the the echelons of power in America
and in Pakistan yeah to convince them to go ahead with a swap come November or something like that
or at least to show compassion we need um I need some help goodness knows I mean I've currently
being blacklisted by these funding organizations for representing AIA because they think there's
something criminal about going to Afghanistan um that's annoying and you know I'm going to
America and I'm going to hire an investigator for example yeah who has experience in areas that I
can't reach you know he was actually a soldier in Afghanistan in Bagram at the time of all of
this he knows all of those people uh I need that help it's going to cost $20,000 um so so I need
to raise some funds for that um right now it's difficult because I can't do a crowdfunding um
but you know look I got PayPal on my website if anyone wants to donate I'd be very grateful but
if there is a high net worth individual who wants to cover some or all of that cost how
do they reach out to you oh well then just give them my email I'll be glad to tell them what my
charity my nonprofit um bank account is I'd be very grateful yeah but uh I don't want people
to think that that's going to stand between me and getting the job done I'm going to do it regardless
yes um then we need experts um I need legal help from lawyers in America because I've this is much
bigger than than I'd thought and it's much bigger than I standing alone can handle in the sense
that we need to sue the prison to make the prison behave better we need to sue them to get the imms
in to get the doctors in we need to do all sorts of what I would view as collateral litigation to
improve her situation I need you know preferably people who are really committed who are sort of
Pakistan American lawyers or from Big firms who can help me do that sort of litigation I can do
all the regular stuff that I'm used to yeah in terms of um litigating her conviction and sentence
in New York yeah um so all of that help is useful I need doctors where do they have to be situated
in in the US in ideally Texas but Washington and New York work too and you know I've worked for
my entire career with pro bono law firms yes who have massive resources and who are able to help
me outgun the government so that we can get some some justice for her so you know that sort of help
would be incredibly helpful okay and so on and so forth there's really no limit right you were
about to say there's another um sorry I I cut you short there was something else you were about to
say well I mean look there are things like what you're doing and I'm grateful to you for doing
this program because we need media coverage um I'm gonna take a film crew to Afghanistan next time
because we need to get coverage out there uh to begin to put some pressure on particularly still
the reticent parts of the Pakistan um High command because there's people there who won't talk to
me I wish they would who are trying to thwart our efforts to get off your home and I just I got this
message for them it's the same message I've always given to governments for my Guantanamo clients I
want to work with you to make this work out well um and we'll give credit to the people who help
get her out and everything will be good if that doesn't happen I've only got one option which
is to expose the torture that she went through and who was behind it I don't want to do that it
doesn't achieve anything for anyone but I need the people who are paranoid about that to to cooperate
because otherwise we can't get a hunt I suppose one reason why they continue to incarcerate us
is she would be a problem for them if she was outside talking I mean how how do you square that
so that's easy I mean she's not going to be she is so traumatized yeah look look at her son and
daughter who are home and have been for years yeah those kids they're getting on with their life and
I have great admiration for them but they won't talk about what happened because partly because
they're intimidated but partly because they're just totally traumatized now our fear is so
traumatized that she just needs to be in hospital and she needs to be getting the help she needs and
she needs to be never heard from again in that sense and I think we can pretty much guarantee
that uh that's not going to be an issue but on the other hand if this continues the only option I've
got is to publicize everything I find out um and that's just not going to be good for the people
who are behind him and we don't know anything else about suan and and his whereabouts whether he he's
dead or not we don't know and it's interesting to ask people about this I mean you know you've got
kids l so if one of them if you weren't sure if your son was alive or dead which would be worse
yeah to know that your child's dead or to just not be sure yeah and I think it's the not being sure
um that is so difficult so I wish someone would just tell us what happened you know we're not
going to sue them or persecute them we just need to know for the family's sake can I ask you about
maen begs you went to Afghanistan with mm and uh he's he's uh he was detained at the airport when
he returned under Section schedule 7 is it um uh but but also more broadly uh there's been you've
noticed the last week Michael goz announced this extremism uh label and definition or redefinition
U that's come out of his government um and mm and cage his organization are implicated in
are are they're probably exhibit a from Michael ghost perspective you know they encapsulate this
islamist extremism that the government is trying to fight I mean what's your comment on on all
of that well first um Michael Go's definition of extremism one of the red flag indicators is that
you exhibit socialist thoughts well I'm absolutely guilty of that and if they want to lock me up you
know put me in handcuffs right now yes it's just Madness right uh I was reading the guardian on
Thursday and there I'm quoted and I didn't realize I'd talked to him I hadn't talked to him but I'm
quoted as saying that I think cage and Mos and be play a vital role in the human rights work
um well I don't remember when I said that it's true I'll say it over and over again I'm just
I I didn't realize that what really shocked me was the context was that they were saying that
my friend and colleague mzm beg is somehow an extremist now Michael go was once Secretary of
Education Minister and so he should know that the word Prejudice comes from the Latin prud and it
means prejudgment when you don't know any facts he's accusing meren of being prejudiced in some
extremist way which is total nonsense but Michael go is prejudiced he's never bothered to meet meren
he he doesn't didn't bother to talk to him before he tarred him and in the media and he did it in
a coward's way he did it under parliamentary privilege where he can say without being sued
so I got two challenges for Mr Gove the first and by far the best one would be if he agrees to meet
with me and MIM in person so he can meet mosim because when I did that with um the former Chief
Justice now sadly dead Tom Bingham Lord Bingham Lord Bingham met mosam and heard what a reasonable
person he is and how he's about reconciliation and forgiveness notwithstanding all the a things he
went through in Guantanamo um Lord Bingham said to mosim I didn't realize there were people like you
in guantan and you know he had a lot of respect for MIM which was great and it's as it should be
and I have a lot of respect for musim so if go wants to meet with mosim I'm happy to facilitate
it he can then change his view the alternative is he can get up and not be a coward and say what he
said in public and let us sue him because these people need to be taught a lesson that they can't
go around just slandering people and think that they can get away with it my job is to protect
the powerless against the powerful and I don't like powerful people doing what go did to Mosen
so I I wrote a letter to the guardian just today on the train coming to see you saying just this
that I would challenge him to meet with us and and make his own judgment based not on ignorance but
but on fact and if he does that he'll realize that mosam is a the person I know who is a profoundly
decent human being uh finally Clive when I last spoke to you you were quite optimistic about
apia's case and that she would be released and have you assessed or reassessed that based on
your engagements at Fourth worth I mean you what sort of person do you think I am you think I'm not
a pathetic Optimist under any circumstance now I haven't real we're still we're going to get
Justice for our fear uh the only question is how long it's going to take uh I do see it as a big
battle Yeah and I don't think that we can approach this as if it's a system that works it's not a
system that works we have to approach it in terms of the leverage we can bring to bear on her behalf
yeah in order to get us some form of Justice okay thank you and so your asks are your media asks are
we need to raise 20,000 P for for rious case and you need we need to raise quite a lot more than
that actually there's lots of other costs but that's just the investigation in America and
we need a team of lawyers in America to help you with with her case um I'm sure and most important
and easiest is for your listeners and viewers to send me letters at the address I'll give you it
the the one that works best is tve Stafford Smith [email protected] that's my personal one and that'll
always work hopefully Clive I'm uh grateful for your time today thank you very much my
pleasure please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and
head over to our website Thinkin muslim.com to sign up to my Weekly
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