Aafia Siddiqui: 'Victim of all victims' | Part II | Centre Stage

Summary

The transcript details the case of Aafia Siddiqui, a Pakistani woman serving an 86-year sentence in the US. Accused of being an Al-Qaeda operative, her lawyer, Clive Stafford Smith, disputes this and describes her as a victim of the US 'war on terror.' The narrative includes her alleged torture, a failed attempt to frame her as a suicide bomber, and her eventual conviction based on dubious evidence. The lawyer also discusses the horrendous conditions of her imprisonment and the fight for her release, highlighting the political and diplomatic challenges involved.

Takeaways

• 😣 Aria Sadiki, an American-Pakistani woman, was subjected to rendition and torture by the U.S. post-9/11.
• 🏢 She was serving an 86-year prison sentence, which was seen as a result of the U.S.'s war on terror.
• 👥 Her case was taken up by civil rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smith, who highlighted her plight.
• 👥 Her sister FIA's activism made Aria the most famous woman in Pakistan, despite global obscurity.
• 🚫 Aria was a 'ghost prisoner' until her release in 2008, which was not a simple liberation but part of a deeper conspiracy.
• 👶 Aria was reunited with her traumatized son, who was led to believe he was someone else.
• 🚌 A conspiracy theory suggests Aria was set up to be killed as a suicide bomber in Gazni.
• 👮‍♂️ A local man's intervention saved Aria from being shot by Afghan National Police, who suspected her of terrorism.
• 🔍 The FBI's involvement after her detention in Gazni led to her arrest and an unjust trial based on fabricated evidence.
• 🔒 Aria was sentenced to 86 years in FMC Carswell, a facility with a worse reputation than Guantanamo, where she continues to suffer.
• 💔 Aria's case exemplifies the injustices and abuses within the U.S. justice system, particularly towards those perceived as terrorists.

Q & A

Who is Aafia Siddiqui and what is her significance?

Aafia Siddiqui is an American-Pakistani woman who was subjected to rendition and torture by the US after the September 11 attacks. She is serving an 86-year prison sentence and is considered a high-profile figure in Pakistan, with her case becoming a point of tension between Pakistan and the US.

What happened to Aafia Siddiqui after her release in 2008?

After her release in 2008, Aafia Siddiqui was allegedly set up to be killed as a suicide bomber in Afghanistan. However, due to the intervention of a local tailor named Muhammad Azal Muhammadi, she was not killed and was instead detained by the Afghan National Police.

Why was Aafia Siddiqui shot in the stomach?

Aafia Siddiqui was shot in the stomach by an American soldier who claimed she had grabbed an M4 submachine gun and started shooting at the Americans. However, the evidence presented at her trial, including the lack of gunshot residue and shell casings, suggests that this did not happen as claimed.

What is the current situation of Aafia Siddiqui in FMC Carswell?

Aafia Siddiqui is currently held in FMC Carswell, a federal medical center that has a reputation worse than Guantanamo Bay. She has been subjected to solitary confinement, sexual abuse, and has received inadequate medical care for the trauma she has suffered.

What are the allegations of abuse Aafia Siddiqui has faced in FMC Carswell?

Aafia Siddiqui has alleged that she has been raped twice and subjected to various forms of sexual misconduct while in FMC Carswell. She has also reported receiving inadequate medical care and being kept in solitary confinement for over 14 years.

What is the role of Clive Stafford Smith in Aafia Siddiqui's case?

Clive Stafford Smith is a civil rights lawyer who has taken on Aafia Siddiqui's case. He has been investigating her claims, representing her in court, and advocating for her release and proper medical care.

What are the prospects for Aafia Siddiqui's release?

The prospects for Aafia Siddiqui's release involve a combination of legal challenges to her conviction and sentence, as well as political and diplomatic negotiations. Possible options include compassionate release, or a prisoner swap involving Shakil Afridi.

Why is it difficult to get justice for Aafia Siddiqui in the US?

It is difficult to get justice for Aafia Siddiqui in the US due to the post-9/11 legal environment, which makes it challenging for prisoners to be heard. Additionally, there are elements within Pakistan that may not want her released, fearing it could implicate them in her original rendition and torture.

What is the significance of the public opinion in Pakistan regarding Aafia Siddiqui's case?

The public opinion in Pakistan is significant because Aafia Siddiqui is considered a national figure and her case has become a symbol of resistance against perceived US injustice. This public sentiment could potentially influence diplomatic efforts for her release.

What is the role of Aafia Siddiqui's sister, FOWAD, in her case?

FOWAD, Aafia Siddiqui's sister, has been instrumental in raising awareness about her sister's case in Pakistan. She has led a movement that garnered significant public support, which could potentially play a role in diplomatic efforts for Aafia's release.

Outlines

00:00

🌎 Aria Sadiki: The Forgotten Ghost Prisoner

The paragraph discusses the case of Aria Sadiki, an American-Pakistani woman who was subjected to a rendition and torture program by the US post-9/11. Despite her ordeal, she was never charged with terrorism. Her story gained attention due to her sister's activism in Pakistan, leading to her release in 2008. However, her freedom was short-lived as she was handed over to a woman in Kabul, with the promise of reuniting with her son, but instead, she was set up to be killed as a suicide bomber. The paragraph highlights the conspiracy behind her situation, implicating Pakistani intelligence and the US's role in her ongoing detention.

05:00

🚔 The Rescue and Subsequent Arrest

This paragraph narrates Aria's near-death experience in Afghanistan, where she was mistaken for a suicide bomber due to the circumstances and her attire. A local tailor named Muhammad Azal Muhammadi intervened, preventing her from being killed by the Afghan National Police. Despite the chaos, the FBI arrived to arrest her, believing her to be an Al-Qaeda operative. Aria was shot in the stomach during an altercation, which led to her conviction and an 86-year prison sentence. The paragraph also disputes the official account of her arrest, suggesting it was a cover-up for the unjustified shooting of an unarmed woman.

10:01

🏥 Injustice and Abuse at FMC Carwell

The paragraph describes the harsh conditions Aria faced at FMC Carwell, a federal medical center that is effectively a prison. Her lawyer, Clive Stafford Smith, details the physical and sexual abuse Aria endured, including allegations of rape. The medical care she received was inadequate, and her claims of torture and trauma were dismissed. The lawyer's account of his visits to the facility paints a grim picture, comparing it unfavorably even to Guantanamo Bay. The paragraph emphasizes the need for independent medical attention and the urgency of addressing the injustices Aria has suffered.

15:03

📜 The Struggle for Justice and Release

The final paragraph addresses the challenges in securing Aria's release and providing her with the psychological care she needs. It discusses the possibility of her returning to Pakistan, where she might receive better care, but also the diplomatic and political hurdles that must be overcome. The paragraph also touches on the broader issues of justice in America post-9/11, the stigmatization of Muslims and criminals, and the systemic barriers to justice for those in prison. The lawyer's commitment to Aria's case is evident, as he seeks not only her release but also accountability and reform of the institutions responsible for her suffering.

Keywords

💡Rendition

Rendition refers to the practice of transferring a person from one country to another, particularly for the purpose of interrogation or detention using techniques that may include torture. In the context of the video, Aria Sadiki was subjected to rendition by the Americans as part of their counter-terrorism efforts post-9/11.

💡War on Terror

The 'War on Terror' is a term used to describe the military, political, legal, and ideological struggle initiated by the U.S. and its allies in response to the September 11 attacks. The video discusses how this initiative led to the detention and rendition of individuals like Aria Sadiki, who was caught in the crosshairs of this global campaign.

💡Ghost Prisoner

A 'ghost prisoner' is an individual who is detained in secret without access to legal representation or acknowledgement of their detention. In the video, Aria Sadiki is referred to as a ghost prisoner, highlighting the secrecy and lack of transparency surrounding her case.

💡Imran Khan

Imran Khan is a prominent political figure in Pakistan, having served as the Prime Minister. The video mentions him as a contrast to Aria Sadiki's lack of recognition in the U.S., emphasizing the disparity in public awareness between a well-known political figure and a lesser-known individual whose story is equally significant.

💡Conspiracy

A conspiracy refers to a secret plan or agreement, typically to do something illegal or harmful. The video suggests that Aria Sadiki's release and subsequent handling were part of a conspiracy with the involvement of Pakistani intelligence agencies, indicating a deliberate and covert effort to eliminate her.

💡Suicide Bomber

A suicide bomber is an individual who intentionally detonates explosives, killing themselves and others. The video describes a scenario where Aria Sadiki was set up to appear as a suicide bomber, wearing a full shador and being accompanied by a child with pockets full of fruit, aiming to frame her as a terrorist and justify her killing.

💡Afghan National Police

The Afghan National Police are the civilian law enforcement agency of Afghanistan. In the video, they are depicted as being manipulated into a situation where they were led to believe Aria Sadiki was a suicide bomber, illustrating the complex dynamics between different law enforcement entities in the region.

💡FMC Carwell

FMC Carwell refers to the Federal Medical Center, Carswell, a prison facility in the U.S. known for housing female inmates requiring medical or mental health care. The video describes it as a place worse than Guantanamo, highlighting the severe conditions and alleged abuse Aria Sadiki faced there.

💡Solitary Confinement

Solitary confinement is the practice of isolating a prisoner in a cell, often for extended periods, as a form of punishment or security measure. The video mentions that Aria Sadiki has been in solitary confinement for over 14 years, emphasizing the harsh treatment she has endured.

💡Compassionate Release

Compassionate release is a legal provision allowing for the early release of a prisoner under extraordinary circumstances, such as severe illness or old age. The video discusses the possibility of seeking compassionate release for Aria Sadiki, indicating a potential path for her to leave the prison and receive necessary care.

💡Diplomatic Efforts

Diplomatic efforts refer to the actions taken by governments to resolve issues through negotiation and cooperation. The video touches on the challenges of securing Aria Sadiki's release through diplomatic channels due to political complexities and the involvement of various stakeholders, including the U.S. and Pakistan.

Highlights

Aria Sadiki, an American-Pakistani woman, was subjected to rendition and torture by the U.S. post-9/11.

Despite never being charged with terrorism, Aria faced an 86-year prison sentence.

Aria's case was taken up by civil rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smith, who details her ordeal.

Aria was released in 2008 but faced a new set of challenges and threats.

FIA, Aria's sister, created a significant movement in Pakistan advocating for Aria's release.

Aria's case became a point of tension between Pakistan and the U.S., highlighting international relations complexities.

Aria was moved to various locations and was at risk of being framed as a suicide bomber.

Aria and her son were put on a bus with a plan to eliminate her, possibly orchestrated by Pakistani intelligence.

A local tailor named Muhammad azal muhammadi saved Aria from being killed by Afghan police.

The FBI's involvement led to Aria's arrest and subsequent conviction based on dubious evidence.

Aria was shot and injured by American soldiers under questionable circumstances.

The trial against Aria was one-sided, with no witnesses除了 the U.S. government's.

Judge Burman sentenced Aria to 86 years, largely based on unverified claims.

FMC Carwell, where Aria is held, has a worse reputation than Guantanamo, with allegations of abuse and rape.

Aria has been subjected to solitary confinement and poor medical care, exacerbating her trauma.

Clive Stafford Smith is advocating for Aria's release and better treatment, facing significant challenges.

Efforts are being made to get Aria compassionate release and potentially swap her for Shaquille afredi.

Aria's survival is uncertain given the harsh conditions she endures, emphasizing the urgency of her case.

The case highlights the need for justice and compassion in the post-9/11 era's legal and political landscape.

Transcripts

previously on Center Stage Aria's

dragged out of the car herself and put

in another car she's the only person we

have a detailed history of who was put

through the whole rendition to torture

program by the Americans who was a woman

but the terrorism charges were never

actually brought against so she's never

been charged with

[Music]

anything in part one of this

conversation civil rights lawyer Clive

Stafford Smith recounts how the events

following the September 11 attacks on

the US and the so-called war on terror

eventually led him to take on the

shocking case of apia sadiki in part two

Stafford Smith resumes the story of Aria

sadiki the American Pakistani woman

serving in 86-year prison sentence a

victim he says of the United States

global war on

terror now we go to 2008 she is a ghost

prisoner but suddenly she is released

this happened to so many people now

normally they would just be released

somewhere um but ironically the massive

problem for Rafia was her brilliant

sister FIA FIA deeply concerned about

where her sister and her two nephews and

niece were had created such a movement

in Pakistan faia had a million people

march on this so many people around the

world world have not heard of AIA sadiki

but she is the most famous woman in

pakist in Pakistan absolutely I think

you got Imran Khan is the most famous

man and AIA sadik is the most famous and

of course she is being held in the

United States so it could be a point of

tension between Pakistan and America no

way you're totally right you put your

finger on it this is the greatest

dissonance that I've ever experienced

between the public opinion in Pakistan

where everyone knows and America where

no one knows what happens to gazin this

is this is where it's it's absolutely

bizarre and there is someone that then

comes to her rescue they move her from

bam to gazni Province think she'd

already been moved to Kabul to this

woman's prison in cabul and now I

genuinely don't believe in conspiracy

theories 99% of the time it's just some

person doing something stupid it's not a

conspiracy this is a conspiracy and I'm

convinced of it and it has the Isis

fingerprints all over it it's a

Pakistani thing so what happens is she's

let go from where she's being held and

she's told that if she goes to GNE she

can have Marian back and they nor will

go back to Pakistan she's given this boy

whose name is isan Ali um who is

actually her son Ahmed but he's five

years old that he's deeply traumatized

and doesn't admit to his own mom that

he's Ahmed she she's deeply traumatized

and is not sure if he is but they're put

on this bus and one thing I've only

recently discovered is on this bus was

someone who is obviously Pakistani I got

a photograph of the guy this is a very

important element is it a discovery

you've made recently that could be very

important in this case you've got two

hypothesis one is that they're being

true to their word and she's actually

being released and she can go get Mariam

and go back to Pakistan that's what she

thinks that's what she is going to

happen that that is total nonsense um it

turns out on the other hand the second

theory is that people need to get rid of

her because she's such a political

liability I'm convinced of it already

from everything I've learned is that and

it has the Pakistani fingerprints all

over it um that she was going to go to

gazy on this bus she was going to be

tired as a suicide bomber and she was

going to be killed there and the

indicators of that is first on the bus

is heran isan Ali ammed it's July hot

summer in Afghanistan he's got a coat on

with four big Pockets with bits of fruit

in it clearly meant to look like he's a

suicide bomber she's got a full shador

on you can't see what's underneath it

and she's told to go sit outside this

mosque for Mariam to be delivered to her

that's never going to happen so she goes

goes to the mosque in GNE she's sitting

there and someone calls in a suicide

bomber uh warning and the Afghan

National Police show up 50 of them with

their AK-47s they do what they do when

there's a suicide bomb thing they're 100

feet away surrounding her she doesn't

speak FY they don't speak eru they would

have just shot her and then what would

have happened is the headline evil

Al-Qaeda woman suicide bomber she's

dumped outside this mosque someone puts

in a call to the Afghans or the

Americans saying she is about to plant a

bomb in this place and so they surround

her and the idea is that you know

probably she would be killed exactly

there's only one reason that didn't

happen and this is I went to GNE on a

cold uh winter day in November and I

found this guy Muhammad azal muhammadi

he was a tailor who was across the

street from the HED bin W mosque and he

saw this woman out there and there were

people trying to talk to her she didn't

speak FY so they couldn't talk so in the

end he goes out there as it's getting

dark and he says you know this is war

zone it's 2008 in GNE you can't stay

here my aunt lives around the corner why

don't you go stay there for the night

she's saying no no no I'm waiting for

they're talking talking heru and um

she's saying no I'm waiting for someone

to be delivered to me and at that moment

that's when the police show up with all

the G guns so muhamedi when they said

start start pointing guns and saying

they're going to shoot her and they're

all screaming and FY and she's terrified

Muhammed stands between her and the guns

and says she's not a suicide bomber and

they get furious with him um but then

one of them goes up and rips off her

shador and sure enough she's not wearing

a suicide vest um Muhammed is incredibly

offended that they pulled her shador off

um so he puts it back on her then they

rip it off her again he's really angry

at this point and so they drag him off

um but then they can't kill her because

by this time lots of people are watching

and they all know that they're not a

suicide bomber and now what do they do

with her so now what happens is she's

taken to the Afghan National Police

Headquarters and they're talking to her

and you know now the Afghans they

weren't in on this plot right they were

just being used and the Afghans are now

talking to this woman she's not a

suicide bomber she says she's just

waiting to take her kids home to

Pakistan they say fine but then the FBI

hears that apia sadiki has been detained

in GNE and so they're all excited

because they haven't known where she's

been for the last five years they think

she's a Al-Qaeda person on the run so

they come swooping into gazy to come and

arrest her so so at any rate they all

come into town meanwhile AIA is in the

ANP headquarters she's on a bed behind a

curtain in a room

now at that point the Americans come in

because they want to interrogate her but

she doesn't know about this but she

hears American voices and what she says

is I heard American voices I'm terrified

I'm going back to more torture so I peek

around the curtain and one of the

soldiers says she's on the loose and

shoots her twice in the stomach and this

is where the events happen which the

charges that she has been convicted on

this is this moment now is why she has

been in prison for 86 years now I'll

tell you what the Americans say the

Americans say that they came into that

room not knowing she was behind the

curtain and they were just having a nice

chat with their Afghan counterparts one

of the American soldiers allegedly puts

his M4 submachine gun on the ground he

left it just like that it just never

happened the rifle is unattended on the

ground and and the allegedly Aria grabs

the gun flips the safety catch off she

starts shooting at the Americans she

doesn't hit them but the heroic American

pulls his pistol and shoots her um and

as part of the trial evidence they show

these two holes in the top of the wall

uh and say you know that's where the

bullets must have gone that she fired

few small flaws with their Theory which

is that there was earlier that day a

press conference in that very same room

which we have the video of and those two

holes were in the wall there before all

of this allegedly happened so clearly

that's not true they tested have a

gunshot residue there's no gunshot

residue on it there are no shell casings

from an M4 there's no bullets from an M4

honestly honestly it didn't happen but

you know you got to understand where

they're coming from if they shot an

unarmed woman in that room there had

been a number of trials in Afghanistan

where soldiers had been put on trial for

using for like that and prosecuted

criminally so they're protecting they

protect each other their soldiers but so

in the in the meantime you have Aria who

is traumatized she's already spent five

years in prison where she has been

tortured she is missing the

psychological pain of not having her

children so she was the one that was

shot and now they have to explain this

and so the trial takes place for attempt

first they take her back to Bagram

everything that she feared but take her

to give them credit they take her to

hospital and she she comes very close to

death but doesn't at that point they

then two weeks later fly in New York to

put her on trial and unfortunately 2008

now we're now 2008 July the 18th 2008

this happened August the 4th she goes to

America your problem from a defense

perspective is there's a war in

Afghanistan and so there are no

Witnesses who come to the trial who are

not the witnesses the American

government brought and as a result you

know she really just doesn't have a

prayer you I was the first American who

got to go do a full investigation what

happens to her now so she goes through

this whole thing No One Believes her

when she says she was in American

custody for five years you know and

actually it's interesting the the

defense tries to get a hold of the CIA

records and the CIA just lies and says

we don't have any um so she's convicted

and she's sent to FMC Coswell but when

she's being sentenced by judge Burman

you know he's been told all this stuff

about how she's a terrorist and this

that and the other so she he gives her a

big enhancement and under the sentencing

regime they can use stuff against you

that you've not been charged with so the

judge goes through all the stuff um that

has been said about

uh and enhances it and you know I'm not

really blaming the judge this is what he

had been told at the time but it's all

nonsense and I'm I've WR written so far

26,000 words about everything that the

judge had wrong so he enhances it from

say you know 10 to 15 years to 86 years

which means she dies in prison maybe we

could touch on the institution where AIA

is being held FMC cwell so meaning it's

a Federal Medical Center but it's really

a prison tell us what it's like inside

this place you know I was genuinely

horrified when I went there I've been to

most of the maximum security prisons in

America I've been to Guantanamo 42 times

I thought I'd seen it all um but I went

to FMC Carwell and it's worse than

Guantanamo oh it's way worse than

Guantanamo I me in Guantanamo I get

contact visits with my clients I can sit

there and eat food with them you know

they trust me I'm not going to Spring

someone out of prison I'm there to

represent them and Carwell getting in

there is hard enough I am wearing just

in honor of coming on your program the

very jeans that I had to buy because

they wouldn't let me in the prison

because I was wearing cocky trousers why

were you but they prefer jeans no no the

women prisoners have khi uniforms and

somehow I was meant to take my trousers

off and give them to I don't know what

it's about but it's very hard to set

things up in cwell and the prison has a

shocking reputation of rape in the last

few years rape of the female prisoners

one of them was a Christian minister for

goodness sake and so what's going on

there Aria told me on the very first

visit about all the abuse that was going

on she alleges she's been raped twice

herself that she's subjected to all

sorts of um sexual misconduct and then

you know there are other things you know

the strip searching is bad enough there

broader issues with the practices and

the abuse that takes place inside this

facility that applies to all the women

there not just AIA yeah but I think a

lot more applies to Aria because I've

got 1,089 pages of her medical records

there and nowhere do they accept that

she's been tortured there is no mention

that her children were K were taken and

kidnapped and they think all of this is

some fantasy of hers that she made made

up and everything she does is a result

of this incredible trauma that she's

gone through they put down to her just

being a bad person whereas in fact she

is the victim of all victims so she's

getting no real medical care she's had

her teeth knocked out of her mouth she's

deaf in her right here where they HIIT

her enough times and I've been trying to

get independent doctors in to see her

female Muslim women doctors which is

what we need and they won't let them in

she's in solitary confinement of

effectively in admin segregation she's

been there every day for the last 14

years that's more than any of the other

women in federal prison 10,250 she's

been treated worse than any of them when

I went there I was just so horrified I

mean I'm now for now it's become a

crusade for me and we're going to close

that place down if it's the last thing I

do because AIA is the victim of all

victims but there's a lot of other

victims of a dreadful institution in

terms of Aria now what what is the what

is the best case scenario for her

because this is a woman who's been

through a great deal she's been

convicted she's stuck in this terrible

institution she's been tortured

physically abused sexually abused what

are the prospects for her release she

clearly suffers from PTSD post-traumatic

stress disorder because she's been

tortured now the one thing you know I'd

never really thought about it until I

was in Guantanamo you can't get therapy

from the people who are torturing you

and so she's getting no care for this

incredible trauma that she's gone

through uh and there's only one place

she can get that from and that's from a

loving environment with her family so

she's got to get back to her family how

is that going to be managed though and

how and psychologically to go to the

country where all this began the

government in a country she may feel as

deeply betrayed her well and they have

deep betrayed her and this is a big

problem does this go some way to

explaining why despite multiple

diplomatic efforts and actually know

relationship between the governments of

Pakistan and the United States nothing

has been done for Aria sadiki because

there are those elements inside Pakistan

that don't want her release because then

it could implicate them I mean if you

think about what happened in 2008 um a

sheriff was still in power then and so

this whole effort to kill AIA was by the

very people who had originally

originated the the the whole thing there

are still people who are afraid of that

now you know to them I tell them you got

two choices you either do the right

thing and do the decent thing we're not

interested in making movies in Aria when

she gets out this woman needs real care

and love but you know if the people who

are behind this stuff don't get out of

the way

then you know I've got no option except

to expose them and I know who some of

them are and I haven't named them in

public uh and I'm not going to if they

get out of the way but I will if they

don't but I think we have to explore

Alternatives we really really need help

the Afghans would take her in an instant

but the Americans are probably going to

be a bit loath to do business with the

people they just lost to organs um but

you know we got to find some way so this

this wouldn't be the legal grout it

would be a political diplomatic

negotiation to remove her from this

facility politics and law I mean I'm

going to follow this thing in New York

um that's basically challenging her

conviction and her sentence but also

seeking compassionate release so the

judge could order her release now if the

judge does that she's got to go

somewhere and there are all sorts of

different possibilities that we could

sort out including swapping of Shaquille

afredi who the pakistanis have who

helped the Americans kill Bin Laden so

there there are officials looking at

these options now in Pakistan and

Washington is that right well I'm trying

to make them look at and that you know

look representative chairman from

California is obsessed with Shaquille a

Frey coming back to America or coming to

America um and so we have political

support but this is not an easy thing to

to solve do you think she can survive

much longer in that facility which

you've said is worse than Guantanamo ban

she's already been through so

much uh the conditions psychological

physical emotional I mean the survival

and survival right she's a very strong

willed person um her biggest issue I

think at some level has been thinking

that she was forgotten and Abandoned and

one project I've had is to get people to

write letters to her through me because

then I can send them in to her as legal

male and she can read about the people

who care about her and I think that's

really important it's really important

to get her sister back in there um so

that she has human contact and so forth

why is it so difficult to get Justice in

America we love to hate people and it's

the qlux clan did it with black people

we do it with Muslims and um

people we call criminals and it's a very

sad element of human nature and then we

set up rules that make it very difficult

for someone in prison to get Justice we

lost our way post 911 I hope to goodness

we're going to find it again Clive

Stafford Smith thank you for joining us

on Center Stage it's really been a

pleasure thank you

[Music]