Have we fallen out of love with experts? Ian Katz reports - BBC Newsnight

Summary

The video script delves into the post-Brexit skepticism towards experts in Britain, questioning the public's trust in specialized knowledge. It highlights Michael Gove's controversial statement, suggesting a shift from reliance on experts to a more populist stance. The script explores the implications for various fields, including economics and science, and discusses the potential dangers of dismissing expert advice. It also touches on the role of the internet in democratizing access to information and the public's ability to question authority, reflecting a broader debate on the value of expertise in a democratic society.

Takeaways

• 😷 The Brexit vote was a significant blow to the intellectual elite in Britain who had favored staying in the EU.
• 🗣️ Michael Gove's comment about people being tired of experts reflects a broader skepticism towards expertise, with potential implications for societal trust in institutions.
• 🧐 There is a growing public sentiment that experts are not always right, which can lead to questioning their advice on critical issues like climate change and public health.
• 📉 Economic forecasts made by experts prior to Brexit were largely incorrect, which has contributed to the erosion of trust in their predictions.
• 🤔 The role of experts in society is being reevaluated, with some arguing that their authority is being undermined, while others see this as a healthy challenge to orthodoxy.
• 💡 The internet has democratized access to information, allowing the public to question experts' knowledge and leading to a more informed, yet skeptical, populace.
• 🔍 The media and politicians often oversimplify or distort expert opinions, which can contribute to public mistrust.
• 🏛️ The script suggests that there might be a historical precedent for the current anti-expert sentiment, drawing parallels to pre-Enlightenment attitudes.
• 🌍 The script implies that the anti-expert trend could have global implications, referencing the 'post-fact' society observed in the United States under President Trump.
• 👨‍🏫 There is a call for a more nuanced understanding of the role of experts, recognizing their fallibility while also valuing their contributions to evidence-based policy and decision-making.

Q & A

What was the significance of June 24th in the context of the script?

June 24th was significant as it marked the day after the Brexit vote, which was a major event that challenged the opinions and predictions of many experts in Britain.

Who were some of the groups that were mentioned as being against Brexit according to the script?

The script mentioned that the Bank of England, the IFS, the IMF, the CBI, and most of the leaders of the trade unions in Britain were against Brexit.

What did Michael Gove's soundbite about experts imply, as discussed in the script?

Michael Gove's soundbite implied a skepticism towards experts and their opinions, suggesting that their knowledge and predictions might not always be accurate or reliable.

What was the 'trickle-down economics' machine mentioned in the script, and what does it represent?

The 'trickle-down economics' machine, built by Bill Phillips, is a contraption that uses water flows to model the behavior of the British economy. It represents a mechanistic view of economics, suggesting that people will behave predictably like molecules in a test-tube.

How did the script suggest that the internet has impacted the role of experts?

The script suggests that the internet has given people access to a vast amount of information, which has diminished the respect for experts as people can now find 'expert' knowledge more easily.

What was the view of the script on the role of experts in policy-making and society?

The script expressed concern that the dismissal of experts could have negative implications for fields like medicine, intelligence, and economics, and that experts are essential for the proper running of society and policy development.

What was the script's perspective on the public's trust in experts after the Brexit vote?

The script indicated that the public's trust in experts was shaken after the Brexit vote, as many experts' predictions about its consequences were proven wrong.

What did the script suggest about the public's ability to discern expert advice?

The script suggested that the public may be more skeptical of expert advice, and it raised the question of whether laypeople can accurately assess complex issues like climate change or vaccine safety.

How did the script describe the potential consequences of dismissing expert advice?

The script described the potential consequences as dangerous, suggesting that dismissing expert advice could lead to a post-fact society, where decisions are made without proper reasoning or evidence.

What was the script's stance on the role of experts in the context of the Enlightenment?

The script mentioned that the Enlightenment involved challenging experts, particularly priests, suggesting that questioning authority and seeking knowledge independently is a part of intellectual progress.

What was the script's view on the public's skepticism towards experts being healthy or not?

The script presented differing views, with some characters suggesting that skepticism is healthy as it encourages critical thinking, while others fear it could lead to a disregard for evidence-based knowledge.

Outlines

00:00

🇬🇧 Brexit and the Discrediting of Experts

The script discusses the aftermath of the Brexit vote and its impact on the perception of experts in Britain. It highlights how the intellectual elite, who were overwhelmingly in favor of remaining in the EU, faced a significant setback with the public's decision to leave. The narrative questions whether this event has led to a lasting change in the public's trust in experts, such as those from the Bank of England, the IFS, the IMF, the CBI, and trade union leaders. It also touches on the broader implications of disregarding expert advice, suggesting that this could be an attack on the foundations of a society built on reason and evidence.

05:04

🗣️ The Backlash Against Expertise

This paragraph delves into the specific case of Michael Gove, a British politician known for his anti-intellectual comment during the Brexit campaign. It explores the context and implications of his statement, suggesting that it may have been a reflection of a wider societal trend rather than a targeted critique of economists. The script also includes interviews with people who express skepticism towards experts, often due to a perceived disconnect between experts and the general public's experiences. The narrative suggests that the internet has played a role in democratizing access to information, which may have contributed to the erosion of expert authority.

10:05

🧬 The Broader Implications for Science and Society

The script extends the discussion to the potential broader implications of the backlash against experts, particularly in the fields of science and policy-making. It includes commentary from a geneticist and a science writer, who offer differing perspectives on the value of public skepticism towards experts. While one argues that such skepticism can be healthy and is in line with the spirit of the Enlightenment, the other expresses concern that the dismissal of expert advice could undermine the basis of scientific evidence and reasoned policy-making. The narrative suggests that the debate over the role of experts is not just confined to economics but extends to all areas where expertise is valued.

15:06

🌟 The Role of Experts in a Post-Brexit World

The final paragraph reflects on the potential long-term consequences of the changing relationship between the public and experts in the wake of Brexit. It uses the metaphor of an expert 'naked' to symbolize the vulnerability and exposure of experts whose advice is ignored. The script suggests that the event may have revealed underlying issues with the public's trust in authority figures and raises the question of whether this is a unique phenomenon or part of a larger trend. It concludes by highlighting the need for a nuanced understanding of the role of experts in a democratic society.

Keywords

💡Brexit

Brexit refers to the United Kingdom's decision to leave the European Union, a significant political event that has had wide-ranging implications for the country's economy, politics, and international relations. In the video, Brexit is used as a backdrop to discuss the public's trust in experts, as many experts had warned against the potential negative consequences of leaving the EU, yet the public voted to leave despite these warnings.

💡Experts

Experts in the context of the video are individuals with specialized knowledge in a particular field, such as economics, science, or medicine. The script discusses a perceived shift in public opinion where experts' advice and predictions, particularly regarding Brexit, were not heeded, leading to a debate about the value and trustworthiness of expert opinions in guiding public policy and decision-making.

💡Economic Forecasting

Economic forecasting is the practice of predicting the performance of an economy, typically involving the use of models and data analysis. The video touches on the limitations of economic forecasting, especially in the context of Brexit, where experts' predictions of negative economic impacts were not immediately realized, leading to skepticism about the accuracy and reliability of such forecasts.

💡Anti-intellectualism

Anti-intellectualism is a sentiment that questions or rejects the authority and value of experts and intellectuals. The script suggests that there has been a rise in anti-intellectual sentiment, particularly in the wake of Brexit, where some politicians and members of the public have dismissed expert advice, potentially undermining the role of evidence and reason in public discourse.

💡Post-fact

The term 'post-fact' refers to a society or culture where objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief. The video implies that the dismissal of expert opinions could be indicative of a post-fact era, where feelings and opinions hold more sway than empirical evidence, as seen in the Brexit referendum.

💡Reason and Evidence

Reason and evidence are foundational to the scientific method and are often cited as the basis for sound decision-making. The video argues that society is built on reason and evidence, and the rejection of expert advice could be seen as an attack on these principles, potentially leading to decisions made without a solid factual basis.

💡Michael Gove

Michael Gove is a British politician who, at the time of the video, was a prominent figure in the Brexit campaign. He is noted for his comment about 'people in this country having had enough of experts,' which the video discusses as a potential turning point in the public's relationship with experts. His remarks are used to explore the implications of dismissing expert advice.

💡Economists

Economists are social scientists who study the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services. In the video, economists are highlighted as being on the 'front line' of the debate about experts, as their predictions about the economic consequences of Brexit were central to the discussion leading up to the vote and were a focus of skepticism afterward.

💡Trust in Institutions

Trust in institutions refers to the public's confidence in organizations such as governments, banks, and international bodies. The video suggests that the Brexit vote and the subsequent skepticism of experts may reflect a broader decline in trust in institutions, which could have significant implications for society's functioning and stability.

💡Enlightenment

The Enlightenment was an intellectual and philosophical movement of the 18th century that emphasized reason, individualism, and skepticism. The video contrasts the values of the Enlightenment, which championed expertise and rationality, with the current climate of skepticism towards experts, suggesting a potential shift away from these values.

💡Science and Scientific Evidence

Science and scientific evidence are methods and findings used to understand and explain the natural world. The video expresses concern that the skepticism towards experts could extend to a broader distrust of science and scientific evidence, which could have serious consequences for policy-making and public understanding of issues like climate change and public health.

Highlights

June 24th Brexit vote challenged the intellectual elite's pro-EU stance, raising questions about the public's trust in experts.

Michael Gove's comment on 'people in this country have had enough of experts' suggests a shift in public sentiment towards expertise.

The referendum revealed a potential loss of trust in institutions like the Bank of England, IFS, IMF, CBI, and trade union leaders.

Experts' predictions of economic downturn post-Brexit were proven wrong, leading to skepticism about their reliability.

Economists have been particularly affected, with their models and forecasts being questioned.

The public is becoming more discerning, questioning the advice of experts they perceive as biased or out of touch.

The internet has democratized access to information, potentially diminishing the authority of traditional experts.

Martin Lewis, a financial expert, was found to be the most trusted figure on Brexit, indicating a preference for non-partisan expertise.

Some experts were seen as campaigners during the referendum, which may have affected public trust in their objectivity.

The attack on experts could have broader implications for science and evidence-based policy-making.

Economist Victoria Bateman argues that the anti-expert sentiment is dangerous and historically has led to dark periods.

Michael Gove later clarified his 'experts' comment, stating he was referring to specific organizations and their incorrect predictions.

The public's skepticism towards experts is seen by some as a healthy sign of a more questioning and informed society.

The challenge to experts raises questions about how society will address complex issues like climate change and public health.

The narrative suggests a need for experts to communicate more effectively and for the public to develop critical thinking skills.

The changing relationship with experts may reflect a broader shift in societal values and the role of authority in decision-making.

Transcripts

June 24th was a grim day in Britain's

ivory towers the brexit vote a punch on

the nose for an intellectual elite who

had lined up in favour of staying in the

EU this will be a victory but did the

referendum reveal perhaps even cause a

lasting change in our relationship with

the people we once believed knew best

the Bank of England the IFS the IMF the

CBI and most of the leaders of the trade

unions in Britain this country said at

last get a fair deal I think the people

in this country have had enough of

experts with organisations from Akron

and he's saying that they know what is

best in getting a consistently ronda's

Michael Gove may have trotted out the

glib soundbite to deflect an awkward

question but it was one with potentially

profound implications have we ceased to

believe that men and women with years of

accumulated specialist knowledge are

worth listening to and if we have does

that reflect a healthy willingness to

challenge orthodoxy or something more

worrying an assault on the very idea

that society is built on reason and

evidence those who are expert to have

the knowledge you have the intellectual

ability to dissect these difficult

problems are being derided and pushed

back in recent years politicians have

increasingly pushed experts to the fore

to justify their decisions but in a

world where experts lose trust

how can politicians tackle climate

change or convince us that vaccinations

are safe look at the experts we've had

okay look at the expert some even see in

the anti expert rhetoric a slippery

slope that leads to the post fact morass

of trumps America you know I've always

want to say this I've never said this

before with all the talking we all do

all of these experts oh we need an

expert

experts are terrible the assault on

experts has implications for fields from

medicine to intelligence but it's

economists who've found themselves on

the front line we are right to question

experts particularly after what happened

in the referendum when experts said that

consumer confidence would fall the stock

market fall growth would cease power

prices were up immediately as a result

of the vote not as a result of a brexit

and they were wrong he needs time we

gave up listening to economist I think

we should pay a lot of attention to

economists except when they're talking

about the future

balance the budgets in 1949 a young

economist from New Zealand built this

contraption in his Croydon garage he

used bits of old Lancaster bombers and

DIY skills picked up in a Japanese Pio

wk Phillips's machine now at Cambridge

University uses flows of water to model

the behavior of the British economy

literally trickle-down economics the

back.this is income after saturation

some of which goes off to savings so

this is the banking sector it could be a

perfect metaphor for what's wrong with

economics the embodiment of a

mechanistic view that assumes people

will behave like molecules in a

test-tube social science masquerading as

science so it's telling us if when you

move the levers in the economy how the

economy will perform yes it is a model

of the economy as a machine is it

reasonable to see the economy as a

machine economic forecasting has always

been a bit hit and miss it's only

function said JK Galbraith was to make

astrology look respectable economists

flag up the uncertainty and assumptions

behind their predictions with forests of

caveats

but that nuance is often stripped away

by politicians or the media or both in

defense of economists I would say that

short-term forecasting is extremely

difficult we're talking about trying to

predict the actions of millions of

different consumers across the economy

and trying to impose some order on all

of that and those millions of decisions

is inevitably going to be really

difficult

Victoria Bateman is an economic

historian she thinks the attack on

experts has implications far beyond

economics I also think it was dangerous

when we look throughout history when we

look at attempts to attack intellectuals

and those go back to the period before

the Enlightenment I think it's

particularly dangerous for

or a Western politician in a Western

democracy to be playing this game of

anti-intellectual izing I think the

people in this country have had enough

of experts with it's perhaps ironic that

a man regarded as one of the most

intellectual figures in British politics

is now famous for one of its most anti

intellectual soundbites Gove insists he

was quoted out of context he didn't mean

to impugn all experts I was particularly

thinking about organisations like the

IMF who I thought had called the Euro

wrong and we're calling the referendum

wrong and I felt at the very least we

should challenge their arguments rather

than simply saying oh well because

you're a tenured academic or because you

work for the IMF you must be right you

are famous for your linguistic rigor

what why didn't you say something more

like what you've just said to me it was

a high profile high intensity high

tension high nervousness encounter

there's a difference between the

considered use of language in a

conversation like this and having to

think fast on your feet do you regret it

you good haven't you used the word

experts in that context no I think it's

life's too short for regrets I think one

of the things that is occasionally

irritating is that people assume that

what I was saying was a blanket

rejection of facts evidence rigor so you

don't trust Mark Carney or the

Chancellor or the Prime Minister

before the referendum Newsnight came to

Bogner where Joan and some friends told

us why they would ignore warnings from

experts like the governor of the Bank of

England does he know what it's like to

go around Sainsbury's shopping does he

know what it's like that line seemed to

reveal something profound about our

changing relationship with experts so

we've come back Jones away but over a

cup of tea I asked a few of the locals

how experts lost their trust

there's too much scare mongering from

so-called experts

there's too many organisations and

businesses that all they do is study

graphs and take polls and and they just

need to make a living out of it and I

don't believe that they can they know

best I don't think they know best how on

earth do we decide what to listen to

and and what not to listen to listen up

here not people I've got good common

sense

Graham you were not impressed by the

expertise of academics

why are you skeptical about people

who've spent often years studying this

subject well they're just ordinary

people but unfortunately they get stuck

in this little bubble of what they're

doing so you'll make all your judgment

based on what you hear

yes not on what their yes qualifications

are yeah it doesn't matter it depends on

what they actually say but sounds like

what you're saying is we should just

pick the experts we agree with well

there's plenty government out there

perhaps not everywhere in Britain is as

allergic to boffins as Bogner but it

does seem we're far less willing to take

the pronouncements of experts as gospel

so how did we get here well at least

part of the answer must lie with the

internet and the way it handed us all

the keys to the kind of specialist

knowledge that once took years to

acquire which of us hasn't diagnosed an

ailment with a little help from dr.

Google long before arriving in the

doctor's waiting room

if the internet has chipped away at the

respect commanded by many experts it's

done the opposite for one man poles if

they still count for anything

consistently found that Martin Lewis was

the figure trusted most on brexit he

thinks the trouble starts when experts

start predicting the future because you

can't make that prediction this is a

world about probability and chance but

what we had in the EU referendum was

people giving us black and white answers

all the time Lewis thinks that part of

the problem is that many experts appear

to take sides in the referendum argument

it was a problem we wrestled with on

Newsnight in the eyes of the two

campaigns no I think some experts made

the mistake of being campaigning and

therefore presenting their views as part

of a campaign which immediately says

that you're biased one way or the other

and the public will perceive it and not

trust you and even those who didn't then

allowed that information to be used in a

polemic way if the Enlightenment has its

sacred texts one of them is isaac

newton's principia mathematica newton's

own annotated copy is the prized

possession of trinity colleges wren

library a temple to knowledge so chile

the librarians where anoraks so this is

newton's own copy of the pic api

Mathematica this isn't it it's one of

the great works of Western science

incredibly important it's a book that

inflicted calculus on centuries Newton

helped put science at the center of our

modern world yet some worry that the

assault on experts has spread beyond

economics and the social sciences and

now challenges science itself

unfortunately mr. gos remarks spilled

over into all sorts of other areas where

experts have an enormous contribution to

me to the proper running of society and

for good policy development science is

absolutely there because science is

based

reason on evidence and the fact that

experts have been derided in this way

does have an effect in undermining

science and scientific evidence we've

come to another temple to knowledge

London's gleaming Francis Crick

Institute Nobel prize-winning geneticist

Paul nurse believes Michael Gove

probably was thinking of economists in

his infamous comment but it was

irresponsible not to clarify his remarks

opinions on the on the front foot and

those who are expert to have the

knowledge who have the intellectual

ability to dissect these difficult

problems are being derided and pushed

back my view about this is that he

cannot last very long because their

opinion is not built on firm foundations

and it rapidly falls apart and I think

we're seeing that already with for

example mr. Trump science is built to

last the expert bashes believe they were

vindicated by the fact that most

economists got the short-term

consequences of a brexit vote wrong but

have they started something more

dangerous has Gove embolden people to

dismiss all kinds of expert advice they

don't like do you worry about that at

all a way that you've actually lets

something bigger get rolling that you

perhaps didn't mean to I entirely

understand that yes and I think that I'm

sure that there are people who've

latched on that word either those who

fear that that rise of you know a

superstitious approach towards knowledge

who think that I may have legitimized it

and it may be that there are some people

out there who think that that that I'm

giving them license to operate in that

way

who's to say all I would say is that

that phrase apart during my political

lifetime both when I was education

secretary and when I was Justice

Secretary I wanted people to know more

to have more information and knowledge

and a greater capacity for critical

thinking you were out campaigning every

day after that interview you could at

any point in the days after when I'm

sure it came up countless times you

could have qualified that remark

funnily enough it didn't come up that

often during the the referendum campaign

I think it was used particularly

afterwards because people felt that the

the brexit vote had somehow been a

triumph of know-nothing an to fact

populism my argument is actually that

many of those who are making assertions

during the campaign on the remain side

were relying on people meekly submitting

to Authority as though we were still

operating in the age of the

pre-reformation Catholic Church rather

than actually making proper arguments

[Music]

science writer Matt Ridley believes this

greater public skepticism about experts

is healthy the very opposite in fact of

the challenge to enlightenment values

others fear one has to remember that the

Enlightenment did consist of challenging

the experts particularly challenging

priests and saying you don't have all

the answers people can work out the

answers for themselves it's hard to

argue that a more questioning public is

a bad thing but here's the problem where

do we stop all these people have had

experts oh we need an expert the experts

are terrible can any layman decide if

the evidence on climate change stacks up

or whether vaccines are safe or whether

it's safe to eat GM crops after seeing

their brexit advice ignored at least one

expert decided to express herself more

forcefully in the days after the

referendum yes so I made the decision to

spend the day at the University naked as

as both an expression of my feelings

about the referendum which is that it's

a rather dramatic event and will have

dramatic long-term consequences but at

the human level more importantly as a

show of solidarity Victoria attended the

monthly faculty meeting wearing only the

words brexit leaves us naked scrawled

across her torso

for some the scene might have been a

perfect metaphor for our changing

relationship with experts the Emperor

revealed to have been naked all along so

did Michael Gove put his finger on

something no one had yet noticed or did

he helped to cause it if only there was

an expert we could ask

[Music]