EPAM Systems' David Billings

Summary

In this Retail Media Thursday video, David Billings, VP of Digital Marketing Solutions at EPAM, discusses the challenges and trends in the retail media industry. With a focus on custom technology solutions for enterprise clients, Billings highlights the complexities retailers face in scaling their media networks and the importance of integrating retail media with broader marketing strategies. He also touches on the impact of AI, both traditional machine learning and generative AI, on the future of retail media and the strategic considerations for retailers in adopting these technologies.

Takeaways

• 😀 David Billings is the Vice President of Digital Marketing Solutions at EPAM, a large professional services company with a focus on custom technology solutions for enterprise clients.
• 🌟 EPAM has around 55,000 employees globally, with the majority specializing in software engineering, data science, and other technical fields.
• 🛠️ David's role involves working with both advertisers and retailers to build custom platforms and solutions, especially when they face scalability challenges in their retail media networks.
• 🏪 Retailers often struggle with the complexity of managing multiple technology solutions and data environments, which can hinder scalability and efficiency.
• 🔧 Solutions to these challenges include building integration layers and APIs to orchestrate the complexity and streamline operations.
• 🤝 There's a trend towards integrating retail media with broader marketing strategies to influence customer lifetime value and category growth, rather than focusing solely on monetization.
• 💡 AI and machine learning are being increasingly adopted in retail media, with retailers exploring how to use these technologies for smarter segmentation, audience creation, and campaign optimization.
• 🎨 Generative AI is being considered for creating advertising content that aligns with both retailer and brand guidelines, potentially simplifying the content integration process.
• 🗣️ The intersection of conversational AI with machine learning models allows for more accessible and interactive data analysis and campaign planning.
• 🛂 Strategic considerations for retailers regarding AI include deciding the pace of adoption, whether to be a first mover or a fast follower, and where to house AI models to retain intellectual property and control over valuable data.
• 🏔 David's personal interests include outdoor activities like trail running, and his dream holiday would involve being in a mountainous region with good food and scenic beauty.

Q & A

What is David Billings' current position at EPAM?

David Billings is the Vice President of Digital Marketing Solutions at EPAM.

What is the primary focus of EPAM's business?

EPAM's primary focus is on building custom technology solutions for enterprise clients, with a strong emphasis on software engineering and technical specialism.

How many people does EPAM employ globally, and what is their specialization?

EPAM employs about 55,000 people globally, with approximately 45,000 of them specializing in technical roles such as software engineering and data science.

What was David Billings' previous role at Accenture?

David Billings set up and ran Accenture's digital media consultancy business in the UK and Ireland.

What significant project did David Billings work on at dunnhumby?

At dunnhumby, David Billings was accountable for building and rolling out their Omni Channel retail media platform.

What are the two broad areas that David Billings' role at EPAM covers?

David Billings' role at EPAM covers Advertiser Solutions and working with large advertisers and retailers to build custom technology solutions and platforms.

What challenges do retailers face when scaling their retail media networks?

Retailers face challenges such as complexity in their technology ecosystems, lack of integration between different systems, and the need to streamline processes to handle scalability.

How does EPAM help retailers with their scalability challenges?

EPAM helps retailers by building integration layers and orchestration layers that sit on top of third-party technology, enabling better orchestration and streamlining of processes.

What is the significance of AI in the retail media industry, and how are retailers approaching it?

AI is significant in the retail media industry for enhancing segmentation models, bidding algorithms, and creating more accessible and interactive models for planning campaigns. Retailers are exploring both traditional machine learning and generative AI to improve their operations.

What is the potential application of generative AI in the context of retail media?

Generative AI can be used to create advertising content that is compatible with both the retailer's and the brand's guidelines, streamlining the process and reducing the need for manual adjustments.

What are some strategic considerations retailers have regarding AI adoption?

Strategic considerations include the pace of AI adoption, deciding whether to be a first mover or a fast follower, where to house the AI models, and where the data resides to ensure IP ownership and data sensitivity.

Outlines

00:00

😀 Introduction to David Billings and EPAM's Focus

David Billings introduces himself as the Vice President of Digital Marketing Solutions at EPAM, a global professional services company with a strong focus on software engineering and custom technology solutions for enterprise clients. With a background in digital media and retail media platforms, Billings discusses his role in ensuring business-focused solutions that deliver transformational value. The conversation begins on a sunny Thursday in Fulham, setting a light-hearted tone for the discussion ahead.

05:01

🛠️ Retailers' Challenges with Scalability in Retail Media

The script delves into the challenges faced by retailers in scaling their retail media networks. Retailers, often new to the business, struggle with the complexities of managing multiple technology solutions and data environments. Billings highlights the difficulty in finding archetypes to follow, as even mature retailers like Walmart and Tesco do not openly discuss their behind-the-scenes operations. Retailers frequently encounter scalability issues, leading to a need for orchestrating the complex technology ecosystem they have organically built. EPAM's role is to help streamline these processes, often through cloud integration layers and APIs, to create a more coherent proposition.

10:02

🔄 Integration of Retail Media with Broader Marketing Strategies

Billings discusses the trend of integrating retail media with broader marketing and promotional strategies. Retailers are seeking to move beyond the siloed approach of retail media, which has traditionally focused on monetization, to a more holistic strategy that considers customer lifetime value, basket size, and category growth. The challenge lies in creating an 'air traffic control system' that provides an integrated view of how all channels influence various metrics. This allows for smarter decision-making, such as sacrificing some retail media revenue for a potentially higher lifetime value from a customer.

15:03

🤖 Exploring AI and Its Impact on Retail Media

The conversation turns to the role of AI in retail media, with a focus on both traditional machine learning and generative AI. Retailers are exploring how to use AI more effectively, from smarter segmentation models to the potential of generative AI in creating advertising content that aligns with brand guidelines. The script also touches on the intersection of generative AI and machine learning, where conversational interfaces can make complex models more accessible, allowing brands to plan campaigns more interactively and efficiently.

20:04

🏔️ Strategic Considerations for Retailers in AI Adoption

Billings considers the strategic implications for retailers regarding AI adoption. He discusses the pace of adoption, whether to be a first mover or a fast follower, and the importance of learning to work alongside AI. The script also addresses where to house AI models, with a preference for retailers to keep models within their own cloud environments to retain IP and control over valuable data. The strategic value of AI is emphasized, as retailers aim to own and operate their AI solutions for long-term benefit.

🏖️ Personal Insights and Quickfire Questions

The script concludes with a series of quickfire questions, providing personal insights into Billings' preferences and thoughts outside of his professional role. Topics range from his dream holiday destination in the Italian mountains for trail running, his favorite alcoholic drinks including a cold beer, red wine from Burgundy, and a Negroni cocktail, to his admiration for Patagonia's values and products. The conversation also touches on current events, such as the Olympics and local celebrity sightings, offering a glimpse into Billings' personal life and interests.

Keywords

💡retail media

Retail media refers to the practice where retailers leverage their customer data and platforms to offer advertising opportunities to brands. In the video, David Billings discusses the complexities and challenges retailers face in scaling their retail media networks, emphasizing the need for custom technology solutions to manage and orchestrate the ecosystem effectively.

💡epam

EPAM is a global professional services company that specializes in software engineering, data science, and digital marketing solutions. David Billings, as the vice president of digital marketing solutions at EPAM, talks about the company's focus on building custom technology solutions for enterprise clients, particularly in the context of retail media.

💡digital marketing

Digital marketing encompasses the promotional tactics used to reach and convert leads using digital channels such as search engines, social media, email, and websites. David Billings' role at EPAM involves overseeing digital marketing solutions, which are integral to the company's service offerings in the retail media space.

💡scalability challenges

Scalability challenges refer to the difficulties that arise when a business needs to expand or grow, often due to limitations in infrastructure or processes. In the script, Billings mentions that retailers face such challenges in their retail media networks, particularly when they need to manage complex technology ecosystems to scale further.

💡integration layers

Integration layers are middleware or software that connects different systems or applications, allowing for seamless data flow and communication. The script discusses the importance of building cloud integration layers to orchestrate the complexity of retail media networks and streamline operations for retailers.

💡audience creation

Audience creation involves the process of identifying and grouping potential customers based on shared characteristics for targeted marketing. In the context of retail media, Billings talks about the importance of creating audiences that can be distributed across different marketing channels, which is a key aspect of retail media strategy.

💡incrementality

Incrementality in marketing measures the additional sales or results generated by a specific marketing effort beyond what would have occurred without it. The script mentions the importance of being able to measure incrementality in retail media, which helps retailers and advertisers understand the true impact of their campaigns.

💡omnichannel

Omnichannel refers to the integration of multiple customer touchpoints, such as brick-and-mortar stores, websites, mobile apps, and social media, to provide a seamless and unified customer experience. The script discusses the trend of integrating retail media with broader omnichannel strategies to influence customer behavior and lifetime value.

💡AI

AI, or artificial intelligence, is the simulation of human intelligence in machines that are programmed to think like humans and mimic their actions. The video script mentions the use of AI in retail media, particularly in machine learning models for campaign optimization and segmentation, as well as generative AI for creating advertising content.

💡generative AI

Generative AI refers to AI systems that can create new content, such as images, music, or text, based on existing data. In the script, Billings discusses the potential of generative AI in retail media for creating advertising content that aligns with both retailer and brand guidelines, streamlining the creative process.

💡machine learning

Machine learning is a subset of AI that enables machines to learn from and make decisions based on data. The script discusses the integration of machine learning into retail media platforms for bidding algorithms and segmentation tools, highlighting its role in optimizing advertising campaigns.

Highlights

Introduction to David Billings, Vice President of Digital Marketing Solutions at EPAM, a global professional services company specializing in custom technology solutions.

EPAM's focus on building custom technology solutions for enterprise clients, with a workforce of around 55,000 people, predominantly in technical specialisms.

David's background includes experience at Adtec, Rocket Fuel, Accenture, and Dunnhumby, with a particular focus on Omni Channel retail media platforms.

The dual role at EPAM involves working with both large advertisers and retailers, particularly focusing on scalability and bespoke technology solutions.

Discussion on the challenges faced by retailers in the retail media space, especially concerning the complexities of managing multiple technology solutions and data environments.

The importance for retailers to build integration layers and orchestrate the complexity of their technology ecosystem for better scalability.

Insights on how retailers are leaving significant advertising budgets on the table due to scalability issues and the need for better technology integration.

The trend of convergence between retail media and broader marketing strategies, aiming for a more integrated approach to customer touchpoints.

The potential of AI in retail media, including both traditional machine learning and generative AI, and their applications in audience segmentation and campaign optimization.

The intersection of generative AI with machine learning, allowing for more accessible and conversational interfaces for campaign planning and data interrogation.

Strategic considerations for retailers when adopting AI, including the pace of adoption and the decision between being a first mover or a fast follower.

The importance for retailers to consider where AI models and data reside, with a trend towards housing them in cloud environments that the retailer owns.

The potential of AI to serve as a 'co-pilot' for brands, empowering decision-making with data while retaining human governance.

David's personal peak of the week involving engaging discussions with new prospective clients and the excitement of starting new projects.

Upcoming family holiday plans for David, indicating a balance between professional commitments and personal life.

A light-hearted discussion on quickfire questions, revealing personal preferences and adding a human touch to the interview.

Transcripts

[Music]

hello it's Thursday it's sunny and we

are in Fulham for a retail media

Thursday with David Billings from epam

happy Thursday happy Thursday it

actually is a Thursday I think this is

one of the first times we've filmed on a

Thursday do you want to introduce

yourself yeah sure so thank you for

having me my name is David Billings um I

am vice president of digital Marketing

Solutions at

epam epam is for those you don't know is

a relatively large Professional Services

Company uh we're about 55,000 people

globally probably about 45,000 of those

are in very technical specialism

so kind of specialisms oriented around

software engineering so Engineers data

scientists that kind of thing the big

Focus for upam is on building custom

Technology Solutions for Enterprise

clients and that's hence the kind of the

bulk people being focused on that kind

of developer type role the other roughly

10,000 are in more kind of business

facing functions a bit more consultative

and and you know that's kind of where I

sit and our job is really to make sure

that the solutions that we're building

are very business focused and really

deliver transformational value for our

clients um in terms of my background I

have a background at adtec I was back at

Rocket Fuel back in the day when they

were still around um I spent a number of

years at accenta so I set up and R their

digital media consultancy business in

the UK and Ireland and then I spent a

few very formative years at dun humby

where I was accountable for building and

rolling out their Omni Channel retail

media platform which is obviously very

useful experience U for the world of

retail media and now at epam um my role

kind of covers two broad areas one is

focused on Advertiser Solutions so given

what I've just said about eam is

probably not a surprise to know what we

do is primarily build custom Technology

Solutions custom platforms for very

large advertisers typically people who

are spending hundreds of millions or

even billions of dollars on Advertising

for whom it makes sense to invest in

their own kind of uh their own kind of

bespoke solution but we also do

something quite similar for large

retailers so we do a lot of work with

retailers often at the point at which

they're hitting kind of scalability

challenges they've got their their

retail media Network off the ground

they're working with some great

technology vendors but they're looking

at what they need to do particularly the

kind of technology that they need to

develop over the top of that in order to

scale further and obviously we'll get

into a bit more of um specifically what

we do as we go through the chat today

yeah let's uh let's come back to that

for now which Pub are we in and why did

we choose it well we're in the Rose

um I regret to say for the Proprietors

of the Rose the reason that we're here

is that the puup that I'd originally

chosen which was twoo minutes down the

road from my house so I chose it very

selfish selfishly unfortunately didn't

get back to us allowing us to film but

we're in this very lovely Pub the rose

and the main reason is unfortunately as

I say I've been selfish and it's

somewhere close to home it's great it's

also close to me anywhere in Southwest

London works for me um and what's been

your peak of the week my peak of the

week I would

say on the professional side

we have been having some really

interesting discussions with a couple of

new prospective clients um I love the

point of our project where we get into

actually delivering stuff and we can see

the value that we're we're kind of

generating for our clients but actually

I also love those first few discussions

when you can start to unpick you know

what are the problems that you are

facing and there's almost this kind of

creative approach particularly you know

with the ability to pull in these kind

of big teams of very very smart people

who have these kind of cross functional

skills and can build pretty much

anything starting that process ESS by

getting into business problems and then

getting to that kind of creative view of

like what could we build to solve your

problems is really fun so that's been

very rewarding yeah that's cool what

about personally well it's yet to come

so tomorrow I will shut down my laptop

for a couple of weeks and then I'll be

off for two weeks on the family holiday

so I'm kind of preparing for that I'm

very much looking forward to that

perfect well let's not ruin one of my

quick fire questions cuz it was actually

related in the

sun um so switching to retail media Yeah

you mentioned you work with a lot of

these retailers who are kind of facing

these ability challenges I think there's

a lot of talk in the industry right now

around kind of the advertisers

struggling to scale because of the

complexity with the number of retail

media networks I think there's a lot

less press around the complexities that

the retailers are actually facing in

doing this so can you share your

thoughts on like some of the challenges

that you're hearing from them and um the

pain points that you're seeing that they

face yeah for sure I mean I would say

the challenges that advertisers face and

with my role kind of working on both the

advertiser side and the retailer side I

kind of see this is almost two sides of

the same coin they both actually wrestle

with quite similar challenges around

working with lots of different

Technology Solutions lots of different

data environments and figuring out how

they can invest money in an effective

way if you're an Advertiser obviously

you're doing that because it's your

money and you want to return if you're a

retailer you're doing that on behalf of

your advertisers often so that you can

generate better returns and and they

spend more money with you but for

retailers in a sense that challenge is

compounded because advertisers been at

this game advertising since they've been

around for retailers this is often a

very new business so you you've got

these very mature organizations that are

very good at being retailers and there

is now this huge pressure to very

quickly spin up these new high margin

very very appealing lines of Revenue but

you don't necessarily have a model to

look to of how to do that and actually

if you look at a lot of the um the

events that happen around retail media

and there are an awful lot of them you

look at um who is presenting at those

you have advertisers talking you have

technology Partners talking about how

good their Technology Solutions are but

when retailers are up on stage obviously

they are selling their solutions to

their suppliers they're talking about

the functionality that you get as a

supplier they're not talking about what

happens behind the curtain they're not

talking about the tech that they've

developed that helps them operate their

business better they're not talking

about their processes and operating

model so actually if you're a retailer

starting out in this there aren't really

many archetypes to look at you know that

Walmart are very mature you know that

Tesco you know been out this for a very

long time but you don't necessarily know

what happens behind the scenes and so

everyone's kind of making up as they go

along and what we often see is is that

it's not necessarily that difficult to

get your retail meent Network off the

ground and start some revenue flowing

but most retailers will hit a point when

they're generating you know whatever it

is for them it could be 5 million or 50

million you know pounds of Revenue

depending on how big they are they will

hit a point at which scalability becomes

a challenge and often the underlying

issue is that they have almost

organically built out a very complex

technology ecosystem lots of different

vendors each focusing on you know could

be a different Channel it could be a

different part of the value chain like

audience cre or finance and billing you

know some of the stuff is not

necessarily the Glamorous stuff it could

be you know back office process and

unless those systems are well

integrated actually you have large teams

of operational people frantically

cranking the handles trying to make this

appear like a kind of coherent

proposition but behind the scenes it's

often not and the challenge that we

often help retailers solve is that

challenge of orchestrating that

complexity and helping to streamline it

and for every retailer I would say at a

certain point you're going to run into

that as an issue yeah we're hearing it

more and more we're having a lot of

conversations at the moment in the US

with retailers one of them actually told

us last week that they left eight eight

digits of budget on the table because

they just couldn't spend it it's we hear

that a lot we you know sometimes we'll

go in and talk to retailers who are on

the surface or as they present

themselves are very very mature and you

talk to their sales team and they say

you know we're running a $200 million

business on Excel help and so often

behind the scenes it's much more chaotic

than it looks yeah it's like the iceberg

analogy it all looks calm on top

underneath and of course no one wants to

admit it so everyone thinks that they're

the ones that are uniquely kind of

struggling with the these issues but

everyone is Flying Blind everyone is

doing the same thing how are they

starting to solve for it what kind of

strategies and solutions are they

putting in place so the work that we

typically do with retailers to help them

mitigate these challenges is often

around building integration layers so

there is lots of fantastic thirdparty

technology out there lots of software

solutions that can help you do things

like manage campaigns effectively um or

manage your financial processes but if

those aren't well integrated as I said

it becomes pretty challenging so often

what we will do with retailers is work

on typically Cloud integration layers

that can sit on top of all of that third

party technology and can effectively

help them to orchestrate it better so

you know you can build apis often now

into the individual retail Media

Partners and you can then think about

building an orchestration layer that

allows you to integrate more effectively

but also think about focusing on

developing solutions that add value for

you specifically so you know an example

might be that um often retailers will

work on audience creation at a channel

level you'll build an audience in your

your you on-site display solution you'll

build an audience that you can ship out

to your offsite solution and it might

make sense for a retailer to think about

doing that within their own cloud

environment build an audience once and

then distribute it to all of your

different partners and so thinking about

what makes sense to elevate above the

channel specific technology um and

thinking about where you can really add

value at that level is often the kind of

path that we see retailers going down

sometimes they'll go all the way to

releasing their own kind of self-service

portals where you get a kind of retailer

branded portal that has an ad Advertiser

you can log into it's not right for

every retailer if you're not a very

large retailer you might not be able to

justify that complexity for The

Advertiser of having to log into yet

another solution um but there's often

things that even if you don't go that

far you can do to help you operate your

own business more effectively with your

own internal tooling I used to do a lot

of work with sap and it's it's almost

like we need an Erp for the retail media

Network 100% And that's often there it's

often just quite disconnected and so you

often got you know you come to kind of

month end and you'll have a team of five

poor people who are desperately kind of

generate invoices manually and it's a

horrible job and it's it's very um it's

very focused at certain parts of your

your kind of life cycle you know you'll

do it towards month end and then you

those people are sitting around without

much to do in the interim so automating

even those kind of as I say less

glamorous back office processes can

often be a big help yeah um one of the

other trends that we're seeing is

retailers kind of thinking about this

kind of convergence between retail media

and their own marketing and promotional

strategies what are you hearing from

them and seeing kind of in that area

like what challenges what problems are

they facing what are they encountering

there so I absolutely agree that that's

a new trend that we're seeing and the

conversations that we're having at the

moment with retailers either tend to be

helping them solve that first kind of

category of problem that I discussed

that's around scaling and reducing kind

of complexity um perhaps generating some

differentiation for your proposition

because you can build better audiences

or you can measure incremental Ras more

more scalably than your competitors and

there's a lot of value to be had there

and for a lot of retailers that's still

something that they need to look at

seriously for the retailers that have

been focusing on that for a year or two

and feel like they have got some level

of maturity there the second category of

problem that we're helping them solve is

how do I integrate retail media with my

broader kind of touch Point strategy

exactly as you said and the challenge

that we often see is that retail media

will be very very focused on

monetization Revenue but of course

alongside that you've got lots of

adjacent business functions that are

focused on slightly more nuanced

business objectives like how do I

maximize customer lifetime value or

basket size or how do I maximize margin

or grow a category you know if you've

got a particular category that you think

is going to be big this summer you want

to focus on bringing people into that

category for the first time and so

retail media can often exist in a silo

alongside that and what we're starting

to see is people ask and and I wouldn't

say anyone's really solved this yet but

probably four or five quite mature

retailers have initiated this

conversation over the last few months

how do I build a better integration

between those two how do I build a view

of how retail media is also influencing

people in youth category also

influencing customer lifetime value and

the solutions to that often need to be

quite complex because what you often

need to do is build this kind of almost

um air traffic control system that

allows you to get that integrated view

of how all of your channels influence

all of these metrics but if you've got

that in place then you can start to be

quite smart and you might be able to see

that for a particular ad slot Advertiser

a might be willing to bid more than

Advertiser B so in a normal World you'd

say let's go with the highest bid but if

you can see the advertiser B might

entice someone to enter a category for

the first time you might be willing to

sacrifice by some retail media Revenue

because you know that you're going to

get more lifetime value out of that

customer you know building that is is

not simple um and I'd say most retailers

are early on but that's absolutely the

direction of travel that we see this

going in yeah the incrementality and

right Omni channel it's kind of the two

biggest Buzz words that we hear a lot

and it kind of plays back surpr those

things um another big topic

AI I don't think we can have one of

these conversations without talking

about that so I think and we're seeing

it come up in kind of two senses like

your traditional machine learning type

Ai and then also generative AI how are

the retailers that you're talking to

kind of thinking about this how are they

starting to approach it and integrate it

into their strategies yeah it's a very

good question uh it took us what 10

minutes to raise AI so I think we we did

pretty well

um most retailers have whether they've

been thinking about it or not have been

working with some form of traditional

machine learning since they launched

their retail media netwk most of the

[Music]

um retail media platforms out there have

you know ml integrated into their

bidding algorithms for example or into

their segmentation tool so often it's

there in the background um what is

interesting is that the very obvious new

wave of interest in AI in general is

also causing retailers to look again at

things like ML and think about how they

can use that more effectively so even

though you know these machine learning

models as a concept may not be very new

at all retailers are now thinking okay

well how can I use AI effectively and

one of the first things they might look

at is you know how could I apply machine

learning to build smarter segmentation

models in my own cloud environment how

can I start to bake in um signals from

across the Enterprise not just what

people bought last week but you know

what we think they're going to buy in

the future what margin we think they're

going to drive those kind of kpis I

referenced um earlier so that's one

thing but I think what's really

interesting is how that is starting to

intersect with generative Ai and you

know there are obvious applications for

gener generative AI like building

creative MH I think in retail media

there is particular complexity around

that which means gen could be

particularly useful and an example would

be retailers are rightly very sensitive

about the content the advertising

content that's shown on their e-commerce

properties as a retailer you spend huge

amounts of resource optimizing your

e-com site to the nth degree to make

sure the consumer experience is right so

the idea of a third party injecting

content into that site it kind of

creates a tension and what you often see

with retailers is you get this hugely

laborious process where the retailer

will say well these are my brand

guidelines and no one can put content on

my site unless they adhere to them and

then you get a brand that's obviously

got its own very clear brand guidelines

and has spent a huge amount of money

building its creative is spending money

with the retailer and you know

reconciling those two can often be a

very challenging process and very

laborious you often see lots of back and

forth and people having to manually

adjust creative so one use case that

we've seen come up a couple of times is

the ability to uh almost use the kind of

brand model for the retailer the brand

model for the brand and use generative

AI to create a an ad that is compatible

with those two so you shortcut some of

that process that's one but coming back

to the idea of the kind of intersection

of generative Ai and machine learning ml

models can be very very powerful but the

two challenges that people often have

with working with them is that either

they're very blackbox so give us your

budget and we'll just optimize the

campaign and people sometimes don't like

taking their hands away from the kind of

controls in quite that way the other is

that you might also need someone with a

PhD in data science to build and run

those ml models so the intersection

between the two that's really

interesting is where you almost have the

ability now to talk to your data so you

can interrogate campaign data

conversationally you can speak to a

model that is able to give you insights

but you can also potentially plan

campaigns conversationally so in the

back end you have machine learning

models that are very good at predicting

how you should distribute your budget

across the retailers different channels

but on the front end you've then got

this conversational interface so as a

brand manager you can just say I've got

£10,000 to spend tell me how I should

plan that I want to maximize sales for

this particular brand how should I

distribute that budget and you can then

start to get into a conversation with a

model that actually generates that

budget in the best way for you and

obviously you can say well actually I

want to put a bit more on this channel

or on that channel it makes it a much

more streamlined process so the

generative piece in that sense is kind

of is the shiny bit on front you the

hard work is still done by the ml model

but by making that model more accessible

and easier to interact with you create a

lot more value from it and that that's

really interesting yeah I feel like the

future is going to be everyone's just

going to be talking to the machines

they're not actually going to be setting

things they're going to be asking what

to do and then I feel like the machine

will tell them that you need take this

action and you'll be able to press a

button and just do it rather than having

to do things totally and at the moment

we're seeing um people be much more

receptive to the idea of a co-pilot yeah

so you're still in charge but you've got

your kind of assistant that's empowered

all this data I I wonder where it will

land in terms of what will be fully

automated and and what people want to

keep control of but I think again with

the sensitivity of retailers around the

content on their sites you're always

going to have that level of human

governance it'll be interesting to see

as well when consumers are interacting

with the retailer sites that way so like

how they're thinking about gen from like

a shopping point of view yeah and I

think you know the the easy thing to

bolt on is always like build a chatbot

um but I don't think that's you know it

might be a starting point but it's

obviously not where it's going to end up

I think you know thinking about how the

the entire function of a website will

change or where the websites will become

obsolete is a kind of more interesting

discussion yeah what are the Strategic

considerations I guess that's probably

one of them but what are the other kind

of strategic considerations that

retailers are grappling with at the

moment around around AI specifically um

I think in in terms of the principles

they're not necessarily so different

from those that you would think about

with any new technology so I think one

big one is the speed at which you should

adopt that is this an area where it

makes sense to lead the market and be a

first mover or actually is this

somewhere where it makes sense to be a a

kind of fast follower and see what

others do and learn from that and I

think you there's a couple of marketing

organizations we've been talking to

about big retailers who have either been

burned or seen others be burned by

trying to move very quickly around

things like metaverse or

nfts and you know while these might be

Concepts that do generate value over the

midterm they've seen some of the first

movers who jumped on this spend lots of

money and energy on you know building

their own nft and then not necessarily

unlock that much value from it so if you

if you are kind of sitting back and

saying you know we know we need to jump

on this but we're going to wait a little

and see so um I do think the interesting

thing about Ai and speed of adoption

though is because of exactly as we're

talking about this idea of kind of

co-pilots and working with it Ai and how

you work alongside these kind of um AI

agents it's going to have such a

profound impact on the way that

businesses operate that actually moving

quickly and learning how to co-operate

with AI is valuable in itself so even if

the use cases or the functionality that

you're adopting today aren't the ones

that's going to generate this fabulous

shareholder value kind of embedding that

approach within your organization still

has value in itself so I I think doing

these tests and learning how to work

with these Solutions is valuable even if

you're not doing the things that

ultimately are going to change the world

for you so I think that's that's one

it's kind of pace of adoption the other

really interesting one is how you access

these Solutions you're seeing more

native AI be embedded in third party

software so we spoke about ml models

being in pretty much every kind of

retail media solution I think you'll see

more and more generative AI embedded in

retail media solution so the easy way to

work with AI is you you license a

software solution that has it embedded

and hey you're working with

AI one consideration though is where you

want to house the models and for a

number of retailers there's this big

concern that actually you don't want to

be fueling models that reside in third

party environments because then you know

these are tremendously valuable things

and you then might get into a situation

where you're locked into a vendor that

you don't be locked into because you've

spent two years training a model that's

incredibly valuable for your business so

that's that's kind of one consideration

is where the IP resides the other is

where the data resides you know these

models are only as powerful as the data

that fuels them um coming back to our

discussion around not just kind of

optimizing campaigns for immediate

Revenue but utilizing signals from

across the business around things like

margin and customer lifetime value or

even supply chain you know the these are

very diverse data signals you don't

necessarily want to be shipping all of

those signals into a thirdparty adtech

provider and so for a lot of retailers

there's this kind of thought that

actually we should be doing this in an

environment where that data already

exists which is typically their Cloud

environment and happily for the retailer

those environments are often very cost-

effective um and often they provide

access to best-in-class models anyway so

actually you've got the kind of tools

there in this environment that you own

where your data already resides and

where if you're building models there

you will retain the IP to that you kind

of own those models and so it takes a

bit more effort obviously than just

using a third party solution but for the

most kind of Forward Thinking retailers

that we're working with that's

definitely the approach they're taking

where such strategic value in this

there's such sensitivity around it they

want to be the ones that are owning it

and I think you'll see more and more of

that

it's exciting and also

terrifying totally agree and often at

the same time totally agree we uh I

actually had a demo of our co-pilot that

we're building yesterday and I was like

oh my goodness this is just the

beginning yeah is incredible we often

see from same thing from Big technology

vendors they will very excitedly show us

what they built and it often is

tremendously exciting but at the same

time it's also somewhat terrifying the

pace of change yeah yeah I'm not sure uh

not sure your children my niece uh it's

going to be a very different world it's

going to be so I don't know where it's

going to go yeah never mind smartphones

the world is going to change radically

right completely so that's the end of

the retail media questions now on my

favorite bit the quickfire go for it

you're going on holiday tomorrow but

what is your dream holiday

destination so at the moment we're at a

point where with small children we're a

little bit constrained around what we do

um but I would say my dream holid

destination is going up into the

mountains um I love outdoor activities I

love trail running and I think for me

being situated somewhere with good food

I think maybe some in the Italian

mountains may maybe good food beautiful

scenery where you could also access some

beautiful mountains and go out and do

some really long runs would be

absolutely ideal but unfortunately it's

not very compatible with having a

2-year-old and a 5-year-old so I'll have

to park that one for

now I'm actually climbing scarle this

weekend that's my yeah it'll be yeah

it'll be great um so you're going on

holiday going to be Sat by the pool if

you were stuck there for the rest of

your life and could only have three

alcoholic drinks what would they be I

think three is quite generous I'll take

that um so I mean it's going to be a hot

location I would definitely go for a

cold beer i' probably if I have to be

more specific than that i' probably go

for a logger just you know always always

good I would also go for red wine which

is definitely my go-to um maybe

something from Burgundy a p no from

burgundy very nice um and then I guess I

would have to go for a probably in

NE gron nice Punchy cocktail again good

in the sunshine good TR Italian Vibes

you stuck with those for the rest of

your life now I'd be all right I'd be

fine with that very happy your favorite

retail store we talked a lot about

retail today but what's your favorite

well given I work with a large number of

different retailers I feel like this is

quite a loaded question I might get in

trouble with some of my clients this is

genuinely quite a tough one and I'm I'm

you're going to have a lifetime supply

of goods from any retail store which one

would it be I I'm a big fan of Patagonia

does that count as a retail store go

with that yeah great values that not

going to offend having read having read

um the book let my people go surfing

which is the best kind of got wasp

joining us which is the the best kind of

soft soft marketing tool for a brand I

think I've ever read um yeah i' would go

for Patagonia cool values great quality

stuff and ties in well with the

lifestyle I quite like are you watching

the Olympics not as much as I would like

bits gone I was going to test you and

see how many Golds have we won oh I know

that yesterday we moved up the medal

table I know that we got a gold in the

women's quad but I don't know I'm going

to guess something like six yes the six

yeah well done fantastic I got lucky

guess and I've got a whole list of ones

here we're in Fulham Fulham or Chelsea

well I would go Fulham because I live in

or specifically on the kind of Parson

green side but I live in Fulham so I'm

I'm going to go Fulham you know who goes

to Parson's green a lot that Kelly Jones

from uh stereo ponics oh really yeah

ah I wouldn't Rec who's your best

celebrity spot in Fen best celebrity

spot

um I don't know if I've seen any

celebrities in F which probably tells

says more about my lack of kind of being

plugged into celebrity culture than it

does about you know celebrities not

being there but I'm not sure if I've

seen any well watch out for Kelly I'll

keep my I'll keep my eyes on I'm then

give him my phone number yeah

okay well it has been good chatting

pleasure nice to meet you likewise thank

you thank you very much

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