Telegram Creator on Elon Musk, Resisting FBI Attacks, and Getting Mugged in California
Summary
TLDRIn an in-depth interview, Pavel Durov, the founder of Telegram, discusses his journey from creating Russia's VK to establishing the secure messaging app Telegram. He shares his commitment to privacy and free speech, which led to conflicts with governments and tech giants. Durov emphasizes Telegram's organic growth, user-centric features, and his vision for a neutral platform that fosters global communication without compromising on security.
Takeaways
- 🌐 Telegram is a globally popular messaging app with significant growth, currently nearing 900 million users without spending on marketing.
- 📖 The founder, Pavel Durov, is a strong advocate for privacy and free speech, having left his home country of Russia and his previous company, VK, due to conflicts with the government over censorship.
- 🕊️ Durov emphasizes Telegram's commitment to neutrality and its stance against taking sides in political conflicts, treating all users equally regardless of their political views.
- 🔒 The encryption for Telegram was designed by Durov's brother, who has two PhDs in mathematics and is an expert in cryptography, ensuring the security of the platform.
- 🏢 The company is headquartered in Dubai, chosen for its business-friendly environment, tax efficiency, and geopolitical neutrality.
- 🛑 Telegram has faced pressure from governments and tech giants like Apple and Google to comply with certain guidelines, but Durov remains committed to resisting censorship and protecting user privacy.
- 💡 Durov's personal belief in freedom extends to his business philosophy, as he has not taken on outside investment that could compromise the mission of Telegram.
- 🏆 Despite the challenges and potential for recognition, Durov has kept a low profile, focusing on the development of Telegram and its features rather than seeking personal fame or accolades.
- 🔄 The script discusses the dynamic between public and private companies, suggesting that public companies may be less efficient due to external pressures and bureaucracy.
- 🌟 Durov highlights the importance of innovation in the tech industry, welcoming Elon Musk's acquisition of Twitter as a potential catalyst for new ideas and approaches to social media.
- 🤝 The interview concludes with a nod to the broader importance of free speech, suggesting that the principles Telegram upholds are vital for societal health and progress.
Q & A
What is the background of Pavel Durov, the founder of Telegram?
-Pavel Durov was born in 1984 in the Soviet Union and moved to Italy at the age of four. He later moved back to Russia after the Soviet Union collapsed. He has a strong educational background with a focus on math and programming, and he started his first company, VK, at the age of 21.
Why did Pavel Durov leave Russia and VK?
-Durov left Russia and VK due to conflicts with the Russian government over demands to censor political opposition on his social media platform, VK. He chose to sell his stake in the company, resign as CEO, and leave the country to uphold his values of free speech and not comply with government censorship requests.
What is the business model of Telegram, and how does it grow its user base?
-Telegram has an organic growth model; it does not spend any money on marketing or advertising to acquire users. The platform's growth is driven by word-of-mouth and user satisfaction, leading to a user base that has grown to almost 900 million without any marketing spend.
How does Telegram ensure the privacy and security of its users?
-Telegram uses a cryptographic protocol designed by Durov's brother, who has two Ph.D.s in mathematics and is an expert in cryptography. The app emphasizes secure, encrypted communication, and the company has a strong stance against creating backdoors for government surveillance.
Why did Telegram choose Dubai as its headquarters?
-Dubai was chosen for its ease of doing business, tax efficiency, excellent infrastructure, and geopolitical neutrality. The UAE's policies align with Telegram's mission to be a neutral platform that respects user privacy and freedom of speech.
What is the significance of Telegram channels, and how do they work?
-Telegram channels are a one-to-many broadcast tool that allows messages to be disseminated to millions of subscribers. They are used for various purposes, including official communications from heads of state, and have become popular due to their ease of use and integration within the messaging interface.
How does Pavel Durov manage to keep Telegram efficient with such a small team?
-Durov manages the company with a compact team of about 30 engineers, using a decentralized approach that includes hosting programming contests to find the best talent. He is directly involved in the development process, making decisions that influence the platform's features and direction.
What is Durov's stance on the use of private equity and venture capital in his business?
-Durov has avoided private equity and venture capital to maintain independence and align the company's goals with his values. He believes that external funding could introduce goals that may not be consistent with Telegram's mission of privacy and freedom of speech.
How does Telegram handle requests from governments that may infringe on user privacy?
-Telegram evaluates government requests on a case-by-case basis. While they cooperate with legitimate requests related to violence or terrorism, they ignore requests that they believe cross the line into censorship or spying, which they view as violations of user privacy.
What challenges does Telegram face from tech giants like Apple and Google?
-Telegram faces the risk of being removed from app stores if it does not comply with guidelines set by Apple and Google. These companies have the power to censor apps and their content, which could limit access to Telegram for a significant portion of the global population.
What is Durov's view on the future of private communication in the context of increasing surveillance and AI technology?
-Durov is optimistic that privacy can be preserved despite advancements in technology and surveillance. He believes in the development of new secure hardware for communication and that societal attitudes towards privacy may change, leading to a greater appreciation for private communication.
Outlines
🌐 Introduction to Telegram and its Founder
The paragraph introduces Telegram, a rapidly growing messaging app popular worldwide, with a focus on its enigmatic founder, Pavel Durov. Headquartered in Dubai, the app is run and owned by Durov, who is known for his rare public appearances and interviews. The host expresses amazement at the founder's story and invites Durov to share his background and the company's origins. Durov recounts his birth in 1984 in the Soviet Union, his family's move to Italy, and his experiences comparing the centralized system of the USSR to the capitalist system in Italy. He discusses his education, his brother's prodigious mathematical abilities, and their shared passion for coding, which led to the creation of VK, often referred to as the 'Facebook of Russia.'
🔐 Telegram's Commitment to Privacy and Freedom
Durov details his journey with VK and the challenges he faced when the Russian government demanded he censor political opposition on the platform. He refused, upholding values of free speech and assembly, which led to conflicts with the government. In 2013, faced with the choice of compromising his values or leaving the company and country, he chose the latter. This decision was influenced by his commitment to freedom and privacy, which he aimed to provide through Telegram. He clarifies misconceptions about Telegram's ties to the Russian government, emphasizing the app's organic growth and lack of marketing spend, contrasting it with competitors who invest heavily in marketing.
🌱 Telegram's Growth and Durov's Departure from Russia
The conversation continues with Durov explaining his decision to leave Russia and the subsequent creation of Telegram. He discusses the bureaucratic challenges faced in various countries when trying to establish a company with the best programmers from around the world. He also shares his personal experiences of feeling unwelcome or unsafe in countries like the US, where he encountered aggressive attention from security agencies and even a street attack. These experiences, along with the need for a neutral and business-friendly environment, led him to Dubai, where Telegram found a home. He praises Dubai for its ease of doing business, tax efficiency, and neutrality, making it an ideal location for Telegram's global operations.
🛡️ Defending User Privacy and Freedom of Speech
Durov discusses the pressures Telegram has faced from various governments and the importance of maintaining user privacy and freedom of speech. He recounts instances where Telegram has resisted government demands that would compromise these values, even at the risk of legal repercussions. He also addresses the challenges of operating in a world where large tech platforms like Apple and Google can exert control over app distribution and content. Despite these pressures, Durov remains committed to Telegram's mission, highlighting the platform's neutrality and its role in facilitating the free exchange of ideas.
🌟 Telegram's Unique Business Model and Durov's Vision
In this segment, Durov explains Telegram's unique business model, emphasizing the app's organic growth and refusal to spend on marketing or advertising. He discusses the company's structure, with a small team of elite engineers and a focus on product quality and user experience. Durov shares his personal philosophy on business ownership, highlighting his desire for independence and efficiency. He also touches on his views on the role of public companies versus private ones, suggesting that public ownership can lead to inefficiencies and a lack of focus on long-term goals.
🔒 The Future of Privacy and Communication
Durov reflects on the future of privacy in a world increasingly focused on security over privacy. He expresses optimism that new technologies and societal attitudes will eventually favor privacy and personal freedom. He discusses the role of Telegram as a neutral platform and the importance of allowing diverse opinions, even those critical of government measures. Durov also comments on the recent changes in the social media landscape, particularly with Elon Musk's acquisition of Twitter, and how it might impact the industry and the future of free speech online.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Telegram
💡Pavel Durov
💡Free Speech
💡Privacy
💡Censorship
💡Organic Growth
💡Encryption
💡Surveillance
💡Neutrality
💡Innovation
💡Regulation
Highlights
Telegram is one of the fastest-growing social messaging apps globally, with its headquarters in Dubai.
Pavel Durov, the founder of Telegram, is known for his strong belief in free speech and privacy, which led him to leave Russia and his previous company, VK.
Durov's early life experiences in the Soviet Union and Italy shaped his views on centralized systems and capitalism.
Telegram's encryption was designed by Durov's brother, a cryptography expert, ensuring the app's security.
The company operates without any marketing budget, relying on organic growth to reach nearly 900 million users.
Durov emphasizes Telegram's commitment to user privacy, even in the face of government requests for data.
Telegram has faced pressure from both the Russian and Ukrainian governments for its role in enabling political dissent.
Durov's decision to leave VK and Russia was driven by his refusal to comply with government censorship demands.
The UAE has been a supportive environment for Telegram, offering a neutral and business-friendly location.
Telegram's growth strategy focuses on product quality and user satisfaction rather than traditional marketing.
Durov discusses the challenges of running a privacy-focused platform in countries like the US, where surveillance is prevalent.
Telegram's stance on not censoring COVID-19 related skepticism contrasts with other social media platforms.
Durov's personal approach to company ownership and management is unique in the tech industry, with a focus on independence and efficiency.
Telegram's team is selectively chosen through coding competitions, maintaining a small, elite group of engineers.
Durov shares his optimism about the future of privacy and the potential for new secure communication technologies.
The interview concludes with a discussion on the importance of neutrality in social media platforms and the challenges of the current geopolitical climate.
Transcripts
telegram is one of the fastest growing
and biggest social messaging apps text
apps in the world popular all around the
world including in the United States but
almost nothing or very little seems to
be known about the company it's
headquartered in Dubai where we are now
it is run and owned and the software is
designed written by Pavo dorov who began
it some years ago who almost never does
interviews it turns out he's in a very
interesting person extremely interesting
person we learned that the other day
while talking to him and he has agreed
to sit down and tell us about himself
and his company and we thought it'd be
definitely worth hearing and with that
Pao thank you for joining us well thank
you for having me so um I confess I used
telegram I didn't know anything about
you or the company and I was just kind
of amazed by your story and if you
wouldn't mind just recreating a little
bit um for our audience where are you
from how did you start this and why uh
that will be a long story that's okay uh
I was was born in 1984 in the Soviet
Union so it was a fun year to be born in
and uh back then I could witness you
know the deficiencies of the centralized
system we had in the Soviet Union when I
was four years old my family moved to
Italy where I could compare what I saw
in tourin Italy with what I experienced
in the Soviet Union and I thought the
capitalist system the free market system
is definitely better at least for me um
and uh I went to school in Italy I uh
became sort of a part of the um European
as a result but then when the Soviet
Union collapsed we decided to move back
to Russia uh in Italy though we me and
my brother we had a lot of fun time uh
he was shown live on Italian TV as a
young Prodigy kid who could Sol
cubic equations in uh real time uh being
just you know 10 years old and that was
considered to be impossible back then in
Italy I don't know what a cubic equation
is so yeah it sounds
difficult definitely and you know when I
first went to school in it I didn't know
how to speak Italian I didn't know a
single Italian word and a lot of
teachers said this guy well this kid
will not going to be successful in our
school by the end of the first year was
second best by the end of the uh next
year I was the best student in our class
so it also showed me that well you could
Excel you could compete I like that in
competitive environment and then when we
got back to Russia it was a little bit
chaotic the only reason we got back is
my father got uh an offer to run one of
the departments in the St Petersburg
State University he's one of the uh
famous Scholars and writers uh uh
dealing with ancient Roman literature
and uh that experience was very
different and uh I still enjoyed it
because in Russia in the '90s you had
this experimental schools where uh you
were taught everything like we had six
foreign languages we had math like very
specialized six foreign languages at
once six foreign languages in parallel
you would have math similar that you
would have in specialist math schools
and like chemistry at the same level you
would have schools specialized in
chemistry and biology so that was really
intense uh my brother he became world
champion in maths in international
olympiads in maths and programming many
times in a row uh absolute best myself I
was just the best student at my school
also did uh some victories in local
competitions in several areas but we
both were very passionate about coding
and uh designing stuff and uh we because
we brought this
IBM uh PC XT computer from Italy back in
the early 90s we were one of the few
families in Russia who could actually uh
teach ourselves how to
program and uh we started to do that I
was uh in the University I was building
website for my fellow
students and uh as a result you know
I started a company that became what
they call the Facebook of Russia we
don't like to name it that way because
uh we actually managed to do a lot of
things before Facebook and that defined
how the social
media uh industry developed in the years
to come the company's name was VK I
started it with I was 21 years old I
just graduated University and uh it
eventually became the largest social
network the most popular social network
in Russia Ukraine B Russia Kazakhstan
and a bunch of other post Soviet
countries uh that was an significant
effort on my side because I at a certain
point was the sole employee of the
company I would write the code myself I
would do the design myself myself I
would uh manage the servers myself it
was quite intense I even responded to
customer support requests uh barely
slapped but that was a fun time when I
was 21 22 years old um and then the
company grew like I said to somewhere
about 100 million active users which was
a lot back then it's uh was I think
201 uh 12 or 2011 when we fa this the
our first issues in Russia because you
see I was still a big believer in this
values of free market freedoms freedom
of speech freedom of assembly so when
the Russian opposition started to use VK
to organize large protests in Russia
where like almost half a million people
will would go and protest on the main
square or some of the main squares of
the city uh we were requ requested to
ban these communities on BK by the
government and uh I refused so the
government asked you to shut down
Communications between
their opponents well BK is a social
networking platform so they have this
large public communities that anybody
can join anybody can read what people
are discussing or what the
administrators are posting they can
comment they can share so it was a tool
for these protesters to organize
themselves back then it wasn't about us
you know siding with with one side with
one part of the uh political uh fight or
the other it was us defending the
freedom of speech and the freedom of
assembly which we believed was the right
thing but that didn't go too well with
with the government and uh they were not
too happy about that I would say and uh
in a few years from then in 20 13 we had
a similar situation where uh you know
you had this protests in Ukraine where
people again would use VK to organize
themselves and go to the main square of
the city and uh show their disagreement
with the government yes and we received
a request SL demand from the Russian
side saying you have to give us the
private data of the organiz
of this protest and our response was
wait wait a minute this is a different
country we won't betray our Ukrainian
users because you asked us to do that we
decided to refuse and uh that didn't go
too well with the Russian government as
well so at the end of that year I had to
make
a difficult decision because I was
offered basically a a choice between two
suboptimal options
uh one of which was uh I would start
complying to whatever know the leaders
of the country told me to do it the
other one was I
could um sell my stake in the company
retire resign as the CEO and leave the
country um I chose the
letter uh that's a it's a if I can just
ask you to pause it it's a little
strange because I have heard people say
that telegram is a part of the Russian
government and you're describing the
opposite you're saying you had to leave
the country because you wouldn't bow to
their demands well that exactly like
you're saying people who have very
limited knowledge of where telegram came
from they would make these
claims they could be encouraged by our
competitors who see it is an easy way to
discredit us because you know telegram
is spreading like forest fire two and a
half ion users sign up every day and
we're sort of a threat so I'm not
surprised there's this perception
because our competitors they spend tens
of billions on marketing and they're
known for using PR firms to also engage
in campaigns like that so how do you how
much do you spend on marketing zero zero
dollars in dollars zero dollars we've
never spent anything on acquiring users
for marketing purposes we never promoted
telegram uh you know on other social
Platforms in any way uh this is very
different
from other apps you could see them being
promoted here or there t is different
all of our growth is purely organic and
uh we got to almost 900 million users uh
without uh having to spend anything
on ads to promote teleg amazing I'm I'm
sorry to interrupt your no it's just
it's just interesting because I have
heard people say that um but it sounds
like the opposite of the truth so you
decided to sell the company resign as
CEO and leave your
country yes that's what I did it was a
bit painful because obviously my first
company was my baby I created my stuff
there was a lot of creativity time and
effort invested in that platform but at
the same time uh you know I understood
that i' would rather be free I would
want to take orders from anyone and uh I
left behind probably a comfortable life
uh but for me it was never about you
know becoming rich for me everything in
my life was about becoming free yes
and to the extent it is possible my
mission in life was to allow other
people to also become free in a sense
and using the platforms that we create
or I
created uh My Hope was that they could
express their
freedoms this is the mission of telegram
and it was also in part the mission of
my previous company BK we wanted to
pause this interview just for a minute
to point something out when the Russian
government asked pav durov to use his
social media company to censor its
political opponents he refused he said
he would rather resign and leave the
country where he was born then
participate in something like that such
was his commitment to free speech now
you got to compare that what he did what
pav durov did to what Mark Zuckerberg
did or Prague agarwall the guy who ran
Twitter before Elon Musk bought it both
of them have collaborated with
governments to censor people and that's
shameful so we believe pavle when he
says that his his app telegram will be a
Bastion of free speech because it has
been we believe him cuz he's shown how
committed to that he is so we've decided
that we're going to launch with pride
our own telegram channel to give one
more Avenue to reach people with our
content free from censorship so if
you're on telegram we ask that you would
subscribe to our new channel for by
searching for a username listed below
we're honored uh to be doing this we're
going to get back to our conversation
with Pablo durov so you start telegram
after you leave Russia correct yeah so
the idea for telegram came with when we
were still based in
Russia because at some point we had this
uh very stressful situation where armed
policemen would come to my house try to
break in because I refused to take down
this uh opposition groups that I
mentioned earlier and I realized there
is no secure means of communication I
realized I want to tell my brother
what's going on to coordinate whatever
we want to do and the every tool to
communicate I could use was not really
secure not encrypted uh it was not safe
to use them so I thought hm it could be
a good idea to actually come up with a
know a decently crypted messaging app uh
and my brother being the genius that he
is he was able to create this encryption
standard that we're using up until this
day with minor changes
uh but the IDE your brother wrote the
encryption yes well my brother like two
phds in maths super smart he could you
know he's he's an expert in
cryptography uh he designed uh the basic
principles of the telegram's encryption
I was more on the user interface side
the way how the app works the features
Etc he was responsible for it for the
encryption side so where did you go when
you left
Russia we tried several places we first
went to Berlin we tried to set up a
company in Berlin we then tried London
Singapore San Francisco you name it
we've we've been everywhere and uh why
didn't you stay in any of those places
oh because the bureaucratic hurdles were
just uh too difficult to overcome you
know I was bringing the best inclass
programmers in the world to these places
and I was trying to hire them uh from a
local company and the response I got in
places like Germany for example is that
no no no you can't hire people from
outside of the European Union because
you should first run some newspaper ad
in the local uh magazine whatever and
then for for six months nobody responds
from engineers that are available inside
the European Union and Germany then
you're allowed kind of to hire Outsiders
and I thought it was a crazy idea
because why didn't you just say they
were illiterate
refugees well because we didn't consider
ourselves refu we were you know very
successful people we could have gone
anywhere I know but if you told them you
were illiterate refugees they would let
you
stay yeah so you so you go from Germany
to Singapore to London to San Francisco
what happened in San Francisco well in
San Francisco we really thought that
would be the place for us to be in
because all the tech companies are there
or around San Francisco and uh there
were two things that happened that uh
made us uh think twice uh well one thing
is pretty obvious uh I was in San
Francisco I got attacked on the street
after visiting
uh I think it was Jack dorsy uh in
Twitter in the Twitter's office and uh I
was walking back at 8:00 p.m. to my
hotel and I got attacked in the street
uh this is the only country where I got
attacked in the streets what what
happened just three big guys tried to
grab my phone from my hands I was
tweeting uh about the fact that I just
met uh the founder of Twitter that
seemed right like a right idea for me
back then uh to do and uh I got attacked
uh I didn't want to let them have my
phone um they probably didn't expect uh
resistance so I snatched my phone back
there was a short fight with the guys
there was a little bit blood involved
but I managed to run away uh and decided
I should probably they probably don't
mug a lot of Russians they might have
been
surprised well there were much taller
than me I must admit and there are three
of them but uh I think I put up a good
fight were you surprised did this
happened in San Francisco completely
yeah it was it was a shock to me because
I I traveled a lot that was the first uh
place I I got attacked and I thought all
right maybe we shouldn't uh look at San
Francisco maybe there are other places
in America where where you don't get
attacked yeah exactly uh
but you know there there's this second
part which was probably more alarming
there in the
US we got too much attention from the
the FBI the security agencies wherever
we came to the US so to give you an
example last time I was in the US I
brought an engineer that is working for
telegram and there was an attempt to
secretly hire my engineer behind my back
by cyber security off officers or agents
whatever they are called the US
government should to hire your engineer
that's my understanding that's what he
told me to write code for them or to
break into telegram they were curious to
learn which open-source libraries are
integrated to the telegram's app you
know on the client's side and they were
trying to persuade him to use certain
open-source tools that he would then
integrate into the telegram's code that
in my understanding would serve as back
doors would allow the US government to
spy on people who use telegram the US
government or maybe any other government
because a back door is a back door
regardless of who is using it that's
right and and and you're that's a little
surprising to hear maybe it's not
surprising it's it's
offensive you're confident that happened
yes there is no reason for my engineer
to make up the stories also because I
personally experienced
similar pressure in the US whenever I
would go to the US I would have two FBI
agents greeting me at the airport asking
questions one time I was uh having my
breakfast like 9:00 a.m. and
uh the FBI showed up my house that I was
renting and uh that was quite surprising
and I thought you know we're getting too
much attention here uh it's probably not
the best environment to run why would
the had you committed a crime no they
were interested to learn more about
telegram they knew I you know left
Russia they they knew what we
were doing but they wanted details and
my understanding is that they wanted to
establish a relationship
to in a way control telegram better I'm
I I understand they were doing their job
it's just that for us running a privacy
focused social media platform that
probably wasn't the best environment to
be and we want to be focused on what we
do not on uh government relations of
that sort the government
relations um so then you came to UAE to
Dubai yes seven years ago we uh moved
here we first wanted just to try it
for half a year see if it works out and
it turned out to be a great place we
never looked back and we never wanted to
change thee for any other place after
that why well for a number of reasons
first the ease of doing business here is
uh so high for example you can hire
people from anywhere in the world as
long as you're paying them a good salary
the residence permits they granted
automatically it's very different if you
try to do that in Europe in some other
countries it's very different from them
second it's very tax efficient uh third
uh the infrastructure is great you get a
lot for uh the minimum amount of taxes
you're paying the the the the roads the
airports the hotels the everything I
think you witnessed it yourself yes but
I think more importantly is that it's a
neutral place it's a neutral country
it's a small country that wants to be
friends with friend with everybody uh
it's not aligned geopolitically with any
of the big superpowers and I think it's
uh the best place for a neutral platform
like ours to be in if we want to make
sure we can defend our users privacy and
freedom of speech so in the time that
you've been here there have been a
number of wars and threats of War
precursors to war um
have you had any pressure from the
government here honestly any pressure
from the government here um to reveal a
back door into tegram or to ban anyone
or to make any changes to your business
zero that's the best part for all the
seven years we've been here there's
there's been zero pressure coming from
the eue towards telegram they've been
very supportive very helpful and it's a
big contrast from you know whatever
we've experienced before um what about
what you've experienced since since you
moved here in those seven years have you
come under pressure from other
governments under whose jurisdiction you
don't fall but to to accommodate their
demands well of course well telegram is
is a large platform we are popular in
many many countries and uh we we've uh
been uh receiving a lot of requests
demands some of them were legit
legitimate like if uh
there was a group of people who was
promoting violence there was some
terrorist activity that was uh you know
spreading violence in some parts of the
world publicly uh posting uh things that
any decent human being would disallow or
wouldn't want to be posted we would help
them but in some other cases where we
thought it would be crossing the line it
wouldn't be uh you know in line with our
values of freedom of speech and and
protecting people's private
correspondence we would ignore can can
you give us an example of a request that
you thought crossed into censorship and
and spying violating people's
privacy well there's a I would say a
very funny story related to your home
country um after the events of January
the 6th uh we received a letter from
I I believe uh
Congressman of the democratic side um
and uh they requested that we would
share all the data we had in relation to
what they called this you Uprising or um
and we checked it with our lawyers and
they said you better ignore it but the
letter seemed very
serious uh and the letter said you know
if you're fail to comply with this
request you will be in violation with
know the US Constitution or
something uh so they wanted data on
people who voted for the other guy in
the
election but they wanted the data of
people yeah who were demonstrating in
Washington or wherever they were doing
uh they Pro you're probably right they
were I'm not an expert in the
politics uh What uh what funny about
that is two years exactly two sorry two
weeks after that letter we got another
letter a new letter from the Republican
side of the Congress and there we read
that if we give out any
data according to the previous request
we would be in violation of the US
Constitution so we got two letters that
said whatever we do
would be violating the US Constitution
in a way that was my understanding of
this letters uh from the same
legislative body both from the US
Congress yes so how do you respond to
that
well the same way we respond to most
such requests we decided to ignore them
because it's such a complicated matter
related to internal politics in the US
we don't want to take any if you I
believe this strongly if you ignore your
problems most of them do go away it's
very true it is very no it says it but
it's true um that's amazing have you
ever had demands that you can't
ignore well it it depends unreasonable
demands so I would say the largest
pressure towards telegram is not coming
from governments uh it's coming from
Apple and Google huh so when it comes to
freedom of speech those two platforms
they could basically censor whatever is
you can read access on your
smartphones so I mean do you run the
risk of being thrown out of their stores
exactly that's what they make very clear
that if we fail to comply with the
guidelines so they call it uh telr could
be removed from the
stores well that would be not a small
thing for you right well it's not W be a
small thing for us because obviously a
big chunk of the world population will
lose access to available tool that
they're using every day but you know it
will not also be a small thing for them
I mean there
should I I believe there there must be
find some compromise in such cases but
Apple and Google are not very
compromising when it comes to the
guidelin if they believe some content is
against their rules they will see to it
that all the apps that are distributed
through their uh stores comply with
these
rules are any of those rules or do you
interpret any of those rules do you
believe any of them to be
political in
nature some of them but it's not the
rules it's the application of the rules
the rules themselves they're pretty
General right so
there must be no violence discrimination
public uh publicly available I don't
know child abuse materials it's hard to
disagree with that yes uh but then when
they start to apply those rules
sometimes we are not agreeing with with
their interpretations and we try to uh
you get back to Apple or Google whoever
it is and say look we think you got it
wrong we think actually this
is legitimate way of people expressing
their opinions and sometimes they do
agree to their credit sometimes they
disagree and we still have to take some
content down at least in the version of
telegram that it distributed through
that
platforms so there are a bunch of a
number of conflicts going on around the
world right now and that may
accelerate so would you expect that the
number of Demands and the intensity of
those demands the Persistence of those
demands would increase as the wars
become more
intense let's see I'm really hopeful
that the past is is behind us I want to
be
optimistic um I think now we reached a
point where uh politicians and societies
know what to expect from social media
platforms and where there uh you know
the red lines are yes uh we also learned
much more about the requirements coming
from both them and Google
slapple so and our users get better
educated as well what what is allowed it
was not allowed so I don't necessarily
believe that things are going to get
worse it does seem like the red line for
for governments is allowing organized
opposition to their rule that's what you
saw in Russia with nval and and the
Ukraine crisis in 2014 that's what you
saw from that Democratic member of
Congress after January 6th 2020
definitely there's a p pattern here
telgram has been used by protesters in
places like Hong Kong yes barus
Kazakhstan even in Barcelona back in the
day yes so it's it's it's been a tool
for Theos to a large extent but it
doesn't really matter whether it's
opposition or the ruling party that is
using tou for us we apply the rules
equally to all sides we don't uh become
prejudiced in this way it's not that we
are rooting for the opposition or We are
rooting for the ruling party of it's not
that we don't care but we think it's
important to uh have this platform that
is neutral to all voices because we
believe
that the competition of different ideas
can result in progress and a better
world for everyone that's um in start
contrast to say Facebook which has said
in public you know we tip the scale in
favor of this or that movement and this
or that country all far from the west
and far from Western media attention but
they've said that what do you think of
that tech companies choosing
governments well I think that's one of
the reasons why we ended up here in the
UAE out of all places right so you you
don't want to be geopolitically aligned
you don't want to select the winners in
any of this uh political fights and
that's why you have to be in a neutral
place but I think Facebook in particular
has uh a lot of uh reasons apart from
being based in the US for doing what
they're doing uh I I think every app and
platform plays its own role and we
believe that Humanity does need a
neutral platform like telegram uh that
would be respectful to people's privacy
and
freedoms maybe the mo from a political
perspective it seems like the most
provocative thing telegram does is offer
something called channels which seem
sort of readymade for organizing groups
of people can you explain to viewers who
aren't familiar with them what a
telegram channel is
yes so telegram channel is a one too
many broadcast tool that allows people
to uh quickly disseminate any message to
millions of people so there's a Channel
people subscribe to it it's a one-way
communication meaning a channel can be
used by say a president or a head of
state and uh everybody else will not be
able to send a message to the president
but the president will be able to send a
message to all of the people who
subscribe to his channel yes or her
channel so the point here is uh channels
are so easy to use and they're so deeply
integrated in the messaging user
interface that they became extremely
popular so you receive it like a text
exactly so it's it's a very familiar
form for a lot of people and since we
launched launch channels 8 years ago I
believe uh a few other apps popular apps
followed in our footsteps and copied
that feature as well not nearly as
advanced was we have but it shows that
it's a really uh high quality and
demanded feature that the world
needs I think it's and you don't have to
answer any of these questions if you
don't want if it's too personal but um
you're the owner you you own it and it's
very unusual in fact I've never seen it
um to have a large business like this
owned by one person why didn't you take
and you could have cashed in on private
Equity money along the way but you
didn't why didn't
you well that's true as of now till was
100% owned by myself which is like I
said quite uh unusual I've never heard
of that before the the reason I tried to
you
know stay away from Ben Capital money at
least the early stages of our
development is because we wanted to be
independent we knew that our mission and
our goals not necessarily consistent
with the goals of uh funds that could be
investing into us and also for me it was
never about money right so I have a few
hundred million dollars in my bank
account or in Bitcoin since 10 years ago
and uh I don't do anything anything with
it I don't own any like real estate Jets
or Yachts I don't think those uh this
lifestyle is for me I like to focus on
what we are doing uh with Tel you don't
own
anything like big assets You Don't Own
no big assets an island in Hawaii or no
no no no land no real estate nothing why
well because for me my number number one
priority in life is my freedom and once
you start buying things first it will
tie you down to a physical location in
my view it's my personal view I don't
have nothing against people who are
buying real estate but in my personal
view it would be like this for me and
the second reason is I like to stay
focused on what we do at telegram so I
know that if I buy a house I I buy a jet
something like that I would be spending
time on trying to make it nice and yeah
this will require a lot of time and
effort would you go with leather seats
or velvet seats exactly and you're not
even going to choose yes for me I would
rather make decisions that would
influence how a billion people
communicate rather than choosing the
color of seats in the house that only I
and my relatives probably bunch of my
friends will see
interesting and you didn't take cuz I I
just want I just have to say it a third
time haven't seen this before you
obviously were famous as a young man as
a company Builder and entrepreneur and
so you could have really taken a lot of
money and you didn't because you didn't
want to be
controlled I just didn't see any reason
to do that you know I had enough money
to get by well to be completely Fair
tgram did takes outside money we issued
bonds 3 years ago so we rais debt uh and
that was
uh and and before that we had a
cryptocurrency project that also raised
some funds so there were instances where
we raised outside uh funding but uh when
it comes to company's Equity yeah you
didn't give up ownership we didn't give
anyone ownership or voting control or
anything like that because we also
believe in efficiency I think that
having my myself as the sole owner
director and product manager for this uh
extensive period of time and the
company's development allowed us to move
faster and be how could you be the only
product manager are you still the only
product manager in the company exactly I
still come up with all most of the
features uh I still work directly with
every engineer every designer who is
implementing these features um you know
I'm running this company because I enjoy
it I'm the only product manager because
I think this is the way I can
contribute how big is your HR
department zero well you could say it's
me
and because the way we are engineer no
no you need a big HR department you
don't think you don't Suffer Without
one we in a way decentralized that we
started a platform where we host
contests for engine Engineers it's
actually contest.com we have the
separate uh platform for that and we
select the best of the best Engineers as
a result of the
competitions that we organize we hold
them every like month or two months so
after a series of these competitions we
select the best of the best of the best
and they then maybe could join our team
which is just about 30 Engineers so it's
it's really compact the team super
efficient it's like a a Navy sealed team
and uh uh this is how we operate we
don't need HR department to find uh
super talented
Engineers why doesn't everyone do this I
look at some of these tech companies or
Elon Musk famously when he showed up at
Twitter I mean there were people doing
things that he didn't even know what
they were doing and they didn't know
what they were doing they were like
there was a World Peace Department and a
foosball Department
and why doesn't
everybody run their business like you
well it's an interesting question I
think it all boils down to the question
of uh Independence anyway I asked this
question to the predecessors of el Jack
dorsy Jack and
um um and the his predecessor as well
and uh what you say dick cost I his name
and uh this Jack he told me that uh if I
told him look you can run this company
with 20 people you don't need so many
people here and the response was I agree
with you but if we start firing so many
people it will make the Wall Street
scared they will think something's very
wrong with the company and we don't want
to do that and that's why we got to keep
all this uh employees around so to keep
the stock price high he had to run it
inefficiently
I mean that's what you're saying if I
understood him correctly that's what
what but to to his to his credit El has
to take Twitter private before he could
do all
theorization there's I mean there's
something sort of profound in what
you're saying I mean the whole point of
a publicly traded company or one of the
points so the public can participate in
the ownership of the company but also so
Outsiders can assess the operations of
the company and so there transparencies
we know how the company is run because
it's owned by the
public and so it would be by definition
more efficient you would think but
you're saying that it's wildly less
efficient that you wind up with a
foosball department when it's publicly
traded but when it's privately held you
don't I mean that's kind of the opposite
of what you would think right well I
guess most tech Founders would actually
agree that running a public
company is uh less efficient than
running a private company because you
have to be accountable to much more
people there's a lot of redundancy
bureaucracy
involved so from a purely like
efficiency standpoint I would argue and
I think a lot of people would agree with
me that we a a public company is
suboptimal however there are other
advantages of of uh getting listed and
of course that is relevant when you want
to acquire other companies cash right
yes you can have access to cheap Capital
you know there's a lot of things you can
do but you don't want to do any of those
things well not not presently definitely
I am enjoying running my company in The
Way It Is Well who knows what the future
holds but uh as of now I think we are
doing a great job with uh with telegram
900 million users will probably cross a
billion uh monthly active users within a
year from now I think we're doing great
why would we lose this momentum right
now can I just go back to something you
said the at the outset you don't have an
HR department you only have 30 Engineers
working for
you you run the products you own the
company such a tight organization but
how do you get new users if you spend
zero money for Acquisitions if you're
not advertising if you're not paying to
bring people in how do you how do you do
that how do you get to a billion for
free because people love our product
what we realized pretty early on is that
people are
smart people like to use good things and
they don't like to use inferior things
that's why whenever you have a person
who who started to use Telegram and
they're there for a while and they start
to discover all the features all their
uh you know the speed the security the
pro everything that we have uh they
don't want want to go back and they
start inviting their friends
recommending them you should really
check this app out because it's so much
better than everything else also because
people realize that whatever uh
messaging apps they're using right now
they're like five six years behind
They're copying what we did six years
ago and that's not a you know very high
quality copy that they make of our
features so people love quality that's
why they move they also love the
independent they also love the Privacy
they love the freedom there are a lot of
reasons why somebody would switch to
telegram from other apps so one of the
things we learned when Elon Musk bought
Twitter is that the Intel agencies not
just us but a bunch of other countries
The Usual Suspects um were all over the
company I mean they were some of them
were present working at the company they
had access to the direct messages you
can just imagine well you know because
you run one but the wealth of data
flowing through would be of great
interest to to governments does that
make you paranoid that you'll be
penetrated I mean I I assume governments
would like to know what's going on sort
of privately on telegram well there's
definitely a lot of responsibility that
we have on our shoulders and we I
wouldn't say we are paranoid but I think
it makes sense to stay prudent and uh
you know not being uh too accessible not
traveling to weird places you don't
travel to weird places I hope
not like I travel to places where I have
uh confidence that you know those places
are uh consistent with what we do in our
values I don't go to any of the big
geopolitical powers of the countries
like China or Russia or the US so uh you
don't go to the US I try not to I can go
but you know it's uh too much attention
like I described before yeah because at
some point if you run something like
this you're a player in World politics I
mean by Def whether you want to be or
not don't you think we definitely don't
want to be a player we want to be a
neutral platform that is impartial and
you know doesn't take any side but
you're probably right there's some role
we have to play well not taking aside is
the one thing you're not allowed to do
right right I mean aren't you required
to take aide in the modern world I think
that's a big problem because I think
that kind of
um attitude can result in our world
becoming a more dangerous place because
at the end of the day we all have to try
to understand each other and try to get
closer to each other in in terms of
getting to know the positions of the
other people even those they're
drastically different from our own
positions and that's how we get to some
compromise and and move forward if we're
strictly divided and everybody is
required to take a side and we can't
take a side because we are this platform
that people should
use to collaborate and to find common
ground and hopefully to move forward if
we lose that we can end up in a much
more dangerous place
how often do you intersect with the
National Security Agency NSA and I asked
that as someone whose texts were read by
them so I I I know that they're very
active in this world um what's your
experience
been well I think the NSA is not uh an
agency that works with you directly
right I don't come and C you're so
diplomatic I love it the N is not an
agency that works with you directly no
that is true that is true true so my
knowledge of my interactions with the
NSA is very limited yes I could read
something in the newspapers about you
know my phone being penetrated with
Pegasus or something like that I no idea
whether it's true or not but this is the
only source of information I can have
about me personally being of interest to
any of uh you know the secret agencies
but you've got to think even though you
haven't done an interview in seven years
is uh you know you're it's it's widely
known by people who are interested who
you are in your role in this I mean
you've got to think you're under just
crazy amounts of surveillance wouldn't
you think that's probably true you know
it would sound funny but I assume by
default that the devices I use I are
compromised yes because you you you will
still use an iPhone or an Android phone
and uh
now After experiencing what I
experienced in the US I have very
limited faith
in platforms developed in the US from a
security standpoint yes privacy
standpoint exactly yeah because in a lot
of countries ours America included
spying is described as quote security
you're looking at it from the other
perspective you're assuming that
security is privacy and my right not to
be spied upon but big governments
describe spying upon you as security
thank you for this
correction um so last question do you
since you've done this since you were in
college and you've been at the center of
it where do you see it going and by this
I mean the free exchange the private
exchange of information between
Sovereign individuals human beings
nonslaved
when I was a child that was possible
it's increasingly difficult are we
moving toward a world where there just
is no private
communication or do you think that
privacy will remain despite say AI or
just massive increases in computing
power well this depends on the extent of
privacy uh when you say privacy will
remain do you mean that we have absolute
privacy now I don't think that we do and
I think the world is becoming less
amenable government's becoming less
tolerant of privacy it's clearly the
trend because they have more
technological
power but will they win I guess will
there ever be a way to preserve privacy
you know can is there a place for it I
believe in that I an optimist I think
some new secure Hardware you know
communication devices will be created uh
in a similar way that now we have uh
Hardware wallets to store your
cryptocurrency yes maybe we'll have
secure
communication devices you know to send
messages or do voice calls it's possible
uh I do believe that you know the world
develops in cycles and uh if things seem
to go in one direction today doesn't
seem doesn't mean that tomorrow they
will go the same direction
I also feel that at some point
people will get tired of uh what they
experienc today and they would decide to
you know move to some other direction so
it's I I seen it after covid for example
so during Co you had a lot of
restrictions also on social media
platforms you most social media
platforms you were not really allowed
to express doubt in relation to
lockdowns or vaccines or masks and uh at
some point I could feel that the
sentiment changed people started to feel
very very tired and sometimes
angry with the fact that they were not
allowed to express their opinions
particularly after the end of uh the
pandemic uh PE a lot of people start
started to
be even more skeptical about the
restrictions in their freedoms that they
experienced during the pandemic what was
your position as a business owner uh
during covid did you must have come
under pressure to censor opinions on
lockdowns vaccines masking what how did
you respond so our position is pretty
straightforward we're a neutral platform
we were helping governments to spread
their message about the lockdowns and
masks and accidents we had dozens of
governments who we really helped uh you
know de simulate their information but
we also didn't want to restrict the
voices that were critical of all these
measures we thought it made sense for
this opposing views to collide and
hopefully you know see some truth come
out of those debates and of course we
got critic for that but uh looking back
I think it was the right strategy so you
allowed people to voice doubts about the
so-called science throughout the
throughout the
experience exactly during the pandemic
we I think were one of the few or maybe
the only major social media platform
that didn't uh take down accounts that
were
skeptical uh in relation to some of
these measures so why why are you not
famous and treated as a hero in the
United
States shouldn't there be a parade in
your honor if you're the only social
media platform not to take down what
turned out to be true or in some to some
extent true more certainly more true
than the CDC
guidance I mean why why why weren't you
times Man of the Year why isn't your
face on the
nickel I'm not an expert in us
politics but to to be fair you have now
uh Twitter or a yeah that uh seemingly
becoming more Pro freedom of speech uh
and uh I think it is it's it's it's it's
a great development and back to our
earlier discussion about how all of this
is developing in
Cycles things are starting to change it
seems
so do you I mean but in in some ways
Elon buying
Twitter sort of ends your
Monopoly but you still greet it
cheerfully you're still in favor of it
definitely we we love the fact that uh
Elan bought Twitter we thought it was a
great development for a number of
reasons first reason is just Innovation
you could see ax doing trying a lot of
things some of them will turn out to be
mistakes some of them will work but at
least they're trying to innovate that's
something we didn't have outside of
telegram and a few other companies in
this industry for the last 10 years what
you saw from the big players they would
rather copy The Proven models the
features that apps like
telegram
launch and just scale them on a larger
audience this features would be a pale
will be pale pale reflections of what we
built but this was the way those
companies operate still
operate what x is trying to do is uh in
line what we're building you know
Innovation trying different things uh
trying to give power to the
creators uh trying to get the ecosystem
economy going those are all exciting
things and uh I think we need more
companies like that I was I don't know
if it's good for Humanity that um like Y
is spending so much time on Twitter
making it better but it's definitely
good for the social media
industry when you see the other the guys
who run these other companies like what
do you do know them and do you ever talk
about freedom of speech I mean if you're
running you're running to Mark not you
don't have to answer of course if you
don't want but like if you're running to
Mark
Zuckerberg yeah I we met with Mark more
than 10 years ago I was still running VK
and I told them I told Mark and his
colleagues about
our uh app platform we launched an app
platform I think it was 2009 at VK they
were very interested it was an
interesting
meeting
um they ended up trying to copy not what
we did but what I told them we did uh it
was funny um I remember him asking
whether we were planning
to uh start something on a global uh
basis on the global Lael level like go
uh for international expansion I said no
and I asked him whether he was going to
try to capture more of my domestic
Market where I was working on and he
said no and we both ended up doing
exactly that in like two or three weeks
that was so I'm thinking I shouldn't go
into business with Mark
Zuckerberg
uh no
comment pav J that thank you very much
it a great conversation I appreciate and
we're rooting for you thank you for
having me of
course free speech is bigger than any
one person or any one organization
societies are defined by what they will
not permit what we're watching is the
total inversion of virtue hey it's
Tucker Carlson the internet is crowded
with interesting things that don't
really matter on TCN we attempt to bring
you interesting things that actually do
matter and a lot of them interviews long
form and short videos documentaries you
can find all of it on tuckercarlson.com
and we hope you will
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