Spirituality and Mental Health - Dr. Sidney Hankerson
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful podcast episode, Dr. Sydney Henkerson, co-director of Columbia University's Wellness Center, discusses the pivotal role of faith-based communities, particularly in African-American culture, in promoting equitable mental health services. He highlights the importance of culturally tailored interventions and the potential of churches to serve as mental health allies. Dr. Henkerson also addresses the racial disparities in mental health treatment and the impact of historical injustices on trust in healthcare, advocating for open dialogue and community engagement to foster understanding and healing.
Takeaways
- 🎓 Dr. Sydney Henkerson is a co-director of the Columbia University Wellness Center, assistant professor of psychiatry, and a research scientist, with a focus on faith-based mental health services and reducing racial disparities in mental health treatment.
- 💡 Churches are central to communities of color, particularly the African-American community, and have historically been institutions that provide informal mental health support and counseling.
- 🔑 Faith leaders are often the first point of contact for individuals experiencing mental health issues, making them frontline mental health professionals in their communities.
- 🌉 Faith and spirituality can act as both a bridge and a barrier to mental health care, with some religious beliefs attributing mental health problems to spiritual or moral failings.
- 🏥 The Hope Center, a mental health clinic created within the First Corinthian Baptist Church, provides free evidence-based therapy to the Harlem community, regardless of church membership.
- 💊 Attitudes towards medication in faith communities can be varied, with some hesitancy due to beliefs about the role of faith in healing; education and workshops are used to address these concerns.
- 📚 There is a history of mistrust between the black community and psychiatry, stemming from systemic racism, historical abuses like the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, and misdiagnoses in mental health care.
- 🤝 Dr. Henkerson's work involves partnering with trusted community organizations, such as churches and barber shops, to foster dialogue and reduce stigma around mental health.
- 🌟 The importance of cultural humility in the psychiatric field is highlighted, especially considering the underrepresentation of black psychiatrists and the need for training to address historical injustices.
- 📈 A federally funded study by Dr. Henkerson involves training community health workers to deliver tailored motivational interviewing for depression, with outcomes measured through clinical symptoms and treatment engagement.
- 📖 The script emphasizes the importance of sharing personal stories of mental health struggles and recovery as a powerful tool for reducing stigma and encouraging treatment-seeking behavior.
Q & A
Who is Dr. Sydney Henkerson and what are his roles?
-Dr. Sydney Henkerson is the co-director of the Columbia University Wellness Center, an assistant professor of psychiatry at Columbia University Irving Medical Center, and a research scientist at the New York State Psychiatric Institute. He is a nationally recognized expert in faith-based mental health services and has presented at prestigious institutions such as the White House, the United Nations, and the National Institute of Mental Health.
What is the significance of churches in communities of color, especially in African-American communities?
-Churches are the bedrock of communities of color and have historically been some of the few institutions owned by members of the black community. They have traditionally provided informal support and counseling, making them central to promoting equitable mental health services.
How does Dr. Henkerson's work with faith leaders aim to reduce racial and ethnic disparities in mental health treatment?
-Dr. Henkerson focuses on leveraging the trusted role of churches in the black community to expand their role in providing culturally tailored and evidence-based interventions for mental health, particularly for African-American churches.
What is the role of faith leaders in mental health according to the script?
-Faith leaders, particularly pastors, are considered front-line mental health professionals who have been providing informal support and counseling for years. They are often the first point of contact for people experiencing mental health issues.
How can faith and spirituality affect the stigma associated with mental health conditions?
-Faith and spirituality can act as both a bridge and a barrier to seeking mental health care. They can contribute to stigma by attributing mental health problems to spiritual or moral failings, but they can also be leveraged to reduce stigma and foster connections to mental health care.
What is the initiative involving mental health first aid through churches in partnership with the New York City Department of Health?
-The initiative aims to have faith leaders talk about the importance of mental health, reduce stigma by sharing stories, and connect people to treatment. It involves training community health workers to deliver motivational interviewing tailored for depression.
How does the Hope Center, created by First Corinthian Baptist Church, provide mental health services to the community?
-The Hope Center is a freestanding mental health clinic that offers evidence-based therapy sessions, such as cognitive behavioral therapy and group therapy, free of charge to members of the Harlem community, regardless of their church membership.
What are some of the historical reasons for the distrust between the black community and psychiatry?
-Historical reasons for distrust include systemic racism that barred African Americans from healthcare services, unethical studies like the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, and misdiagnoses in psychiatric care that have led to harsher treatments.
How does Dr. Henkerson's personal background influence his professional work with faith communities?
-Dr. Henkerson's personal experiences growing up in a Baptist church where his father was a deacon and his mother played piano for the choir have instilled in him the importance of faith. This, combined with professional experiences treating African-American and Latino patients, has emphasized the importance of spirituality and faith in mental health care.
What strategies does Dr. Henkerson suggest to address the distrust between the psychiatric field and the black community?
-Dr. Henkerson suggests strategies such as discussing the history of injustices, forming partnerships with trusted community-based organizations, and incorporating trainings around cultural humility in the psychiatric field to address the distrust.
How does the script discuss the importance of measuring the effectiveness of uniting mental health and spirituality?
-The script mentions a federally funded study that involves training community health workers to deliver motivational interviewing for depression in churches. The study will measure the impact on clinical outcomes and treatment engagement to assess the effectiveness of this approach.
Outlines
😀 Introduction to Dr. Sydney Henkerson's Expertise
Dr. Sydney Henkerson is introduced as a co-director of Columbia University's Wellness Center, assistant professor of psychiatry, and a research scientist. He is recognized for his work in faith-based mental health services and reducing racial and ethnic disparities in mental health treatment. His approach includes culturally tailored motivational interviews for church members and implementing evidence-based practices in African-American churches. The conversation aims to explore the role of spirituality and faith in mental health, especially within communities of color.
🏛 The Role of Churches in Mental Health Equity
Churches are highlighted as central institutions in communities of color, especially for African-Americans, serving as trusted sources for mental health support alongside formal healthcare providers. A landmark study is mentioned, indicating that more people in the U.S. seek help from clergy for mental health issues than from medical professionals. Dr. Henkerson discusses leveraging the trust in churches to provide culturally tailored and evidence-based interventions, emphasizing the importance of faith leaders as frontline mental health professionals.
🛡️ Faith and Spirituality's Impact on Mental Health Stigma
Faith and spirituality can act as both a bridge and barrier to mental health care. Some religious institutions may attribute mental health issues to spiritual shortcomings, causing stigma and negative experiences. However, efforts have been made to create congregations that bridge people to mental health care, such as implementing mental health first aid through churches in partnership with health departments. The conversation touches on regional initiatives in the U.S., including the South and California, and the importance of meeting people where they are for effective mental health support.
💊 Addressing Medication Attitudes in Faith Communities
The discussion explores attitudes towards medication within faith communities, with some hesitancy due to beliefs that mental health issues should be addressed through prayer. To counter this, workshops and seminars are developed to educate about the importance of medication when necessary, side effects, and the role of medical professionals. An example is given of a church that created a mental health clinic, providing free medication management and reducing stigma around mental health treatment.
🤝 Personal and Professional Involvement with Community Churches
Dr. Henkerson's personal and professional experiences with community churches are shared, including growing up in a Baptist church and witnessing the central role of faith in health information dissemination. His professional encounters with African-American and Latino patients emphasized the importance of spirituality and faith in their lives, leading him to merge these aspects in his work to better serve these communities.
🏥 The Creation of the Hope Center and its Impact
The Hope Center, a mental health clinic created within the First Corinthian Baptist Church, is discussed. It offers free evidence-based therapy sessions to the Harlem community, regardless of church membership. The center was initiated by the pastor's personal struggle with depression and his commitment to providing accessible mental health services. Dr. Henkerson is working to expand the center's capacity and establish relationships with Columbia for psychiatrist access and medication management.
🔍 Historical Distrust Between Psychiatry and the Black Community
The conversation delves into the historical distrust between psychiatry and the black community, citing systemic racism, the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, and misdiagnoses as contributing factors. The impact of these injustices on the black community's perception of healthcare and psychiatry is discussed, along with the importance of understanding this history to address current disparities and build trust.
🌱 Strategies to Improve Trust in Psychiatry Among Black Communities
Strategies to improve trust in psychiatry among black communities are suggested, including raising awareness about historical injustices, forming partnerships with trusted community organizations, and incorporating cultural humility training in psychiatric education. The importance of these measures in fostering a more equitable healthcare system is emphasized.
📊 Measuring the Effectiveness of Mental Health and Spirituality Integration
The conversation concludes with a discussion on measuring the effectiveness of integrating mental health and spirituality. A federally funded study involving 30 Harlem churches is mentioned, where community health workers deliver motivational interviewing tailored for depression. The study will assess clinical outcomes, treatment engagement, and the impact on depressive symptoms and overall functioning, with a focus on the role of spirituality in these outcomes.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Faith-based mental health services
💡Culturally tailored interventions
💡Racial and ethnic disparities
💡Spirituality
💡Stigma
💡Mental Health First Aid
💡Evidence-based practices
💡The Hope Center
💡Medication management
💡Institutional Review Board (IRB)
💡Cultural humility
Highlights
Dr. Sydney Henkerson is a co-director of the Columbia University Wellness Center and a nationally recognized expert in faith-based mental health services.
Churches are central to promoting equitable mental health services in communities of color due to their historical and trusted role.
Pastors have been providing informal mental health support for years, highlighting the importance of faith leaders in mental health care.
Culturally tailored motivational interviewing is used for church members who screen positive for depression.
Faith and spirituality can act as both a bridge and a barrier to seeking mental health care, affecting the stigma associated with mental health conditions.
Some houses of worship attribute mental health problems to spiritual or personal sins, creating barriers to treatment.
Efforts are made to create congregations that serve as bridges to mental health care, reducing stigma.
Mental health first aid is implemented through churches in partnership with the New York City Department of Health.
Regional differences in faith and mental health are discussed, with the South and West Coast being leaders in this space.
The importance of education about mental health symptoms, severity, and medication benefits is emphasized.
A freestanding mental health clinic created by a church provides free evidence-based therapy to the Harlem community.
The historical distrust between the black community and psychiatry is discussed, including the impact of systemic racism and past medical abuses.
Strategies to address distrust include forming partnerships with community-based organizations and incorporating cultural humility training in psychiatric education.
The importance of sharing personal stories of mental health recovery to combat stigma and promote treatment seeking is highlighted.
A federally funded study is mentioned, which measures the impact of motivational interviewing on depression in Harlem churches.
The significance of Dr. Henkerson's work in bridging mental health and spirituality, and its potential to change the paradigm of treatment and trust.
Transcripts
hello everybody welcome back to
a really exciting episode of ask the
expert today
we're here talking to dr sydney
henkerson
he's the co-director of the columbia
university wellness center
the assistant professor of psychiatry at
columbia university irving medical
center
and a research scientist at the new york
state psychiatric institute
he's a nationally recognized expert at
faith-based
mental health services he's even
presented at the white house
the united nations and the national
institute of mental health
to name a few he also focuses
on reducing the racial and ethic
disparities in mental health treatment
which i think is so important for us to
address today as we talk about
spirituality and faith
because it's so culturally based what i
love about dr hankerson's work
is his use of culturally tailored
motivational interview for church
members who scream positive for
depression
and implementing evidence-based
practices for depression in
african-american churches
i feel like you're someone i could talk
to for hours
about the work we're doing on our mental
health ally certification
and our cultural humility learning hubs
but for the sake of our listeners
we'll dive in and we'll try to keep it
quick for our podcast
without further ado meet dr sydney
henkerson
thank you so much for being with us
today thank you so much for having me
marjorie it's truly a pleasure to be
here and thank you for that
really uh wonderful introduction i'm
glad this is being recorded because i
don't think my mother would believe that
i did all that stuff
oh i have a feeling that everybody
around you probably knows they're around
greatness i have no doubt
it's a great team so just diving right
in
what is it about churches that make them
so central to promoting and achieving
equitable mental health services in
communities of color
you know churches are really the bedrock
of communities of color generally
and the african-american community in
particular
and this is dated back you know for
generations
churches have been you know besides
historically black colleges and
universities
some of the only institutions really
owned
by members of the black community and in
terms of mental health promotion
we know that pastors have provided
informal
you know supports and counseling for
years
and my work in this area really was
catalyzed by a landmark paper that came
out nearly 20 years ago
which showed that across the united
states regardless of a person's racial
ethnic background
or regardless of their refill a
religious affiliation
more people who are experiencing
depression or anxiety or substance use
first seek help from clergy uh
more so than they seek help from uh
general medical providers or from
psychiatrists
so our faith leaders are really front
line mental health professionals
and given the the trusted role that
churches have in the black community
i thought that we could leverage that
trust and that access
uh to expand upon you know the the role
that they are naturally doing to provide
kind of culturally tailored and more
evidence-based interventions
in in faith-based settings i couldn't
be any more grateful for you for
thinking about that and looking at it in
that way because it is so true
that people we know that they go to
their faith leaders
and they are such an important part and
even though
so many of them are naturally gifted at
that counseling piece and that real like
listening to be able to leverage that
makes
so much sense oh thank you for that
can you tell me how faith and
spirituality affect
stigma associated with mental health
conditions and their treatment
faith and spirituality i like to say can
be
either a bridge or a barrier
to people seeking mental health care um
i think
first starting actually with the more
difficult in terms of faith or
spirituality
being being a barrier to people seeking
mental health care
we we know that some houses of worship
um actually attribute to mental health
problems to spiritual problems
in particular to personal sin
or to a lack of faith um and so
unfortunately some people who
are religious or who have attended
various houses of worship
have had negative experiences um with
those faith traditions because
when they were feeling depressed or
anxious or struggling with drug use
um they were told that it was their
fault because of sin or they just needed
to pray more or they didn't have enough
faith
and so so much of my work has been in
trying to reduce that stigma
to create congregations that are bridges
to people getting mental health care and
there has been
so much work especially in the last 20
years
that has fostered you know faith-based
organizations and truly being bridges um
to connecting people to care uh so
what's part of what we've tried to do as
a way of do that for example
is actually implementing mental health
first aid
through churches in partnership with the
new york city department of health
there was a huge initiative to partner
with faith-based organizations
from churches to synagogues to imams
to have these faith leaders on sundays
talk about the importance of mental
health
um reduce stigma by sharing their story
and getting people connected to
treatment
i'm curious are you seeing like being
that you're in new york are you seeing
similar things
throughout the country or is it more
like regional well in terms of
um national um you know experiences with
the intersection of faith and mental
health
the south you know i'm from virginia so
i'm kind of part of the bible belt
um which is classically kind of the most
religious parts of the country
um so that has been um you know a really
important part of this initiative
and and really trying to engage people
in faith-based settings to
to reduce stigma and get access to care
also in california
uh rick and kay warren i'm actually uh
fortunate to be a part of um
k warren's program this weekend that
she's having called breathe
they've been huge advocates in this
space
in promoting mental health through
churches and because of their reach it's
really taken on an international
flavor so i would say those those key
areas
in the south and southeast and then the
west coast have been really leaders in
this space
it's so great to hear you're making such
a difference i mean because you're
you're meeting people where they're at
and that is so
important when people are getting care
at church or at their faith-based
community
what happens about medication if they
need medication
that's a wonderful question so when
people uh in faith-based settings
uh need medications um we've seen
various uh attitudes towards medications
i think some people are hesitant
in some faith communities to take
medications
so we've developed a series of kind of
workshops
and and seminars to try to educate
people about
symptoms and severity of mental health
problems and
when a person would benefit from
medications and the importance
of discussing side effects with their
prescribers
because we know that all medicines have
side effects
and so that's kind of the strategy that
that we've taken
and one of the churches in particular
that i'm working with created a
freestanding mental health clinic
that is staffed by psychologists we have
a relationship with psychiatrists at
columbia where we provide
um medication management uh free of
charge through our residents
and that's been a wonderful way uh to
provide
you know medications for people who need
it as well as reduce stigma and increase
access to those medications that's great
i'm really curious how did you become
involved in working with community
churches
where'd it all come from so i became
involved in churches through a
combination of kind of personal
experiences
as well as professional experiences so
on a personal level
i grew up in virginia my dad's a deacon
at the church where i grew up a baptist
church
in fredericksburg virginia and my mom
played the piano for the little kids
choir
so i was in church um either singing or
trying to sing
or attending services uh
every week you know as a child and so my
faith is very important to
me and through that experience i saw
just how central
people's faith were and how central and
trusted churches really are
as conduits for providing health
information and then professionally
and in treaty patients either on
inpatient units or outpatient units
especially with african-american and
latino patients
they talked about the importance of
prayer and they talked about the
importance of
me wanting to connect with their pastor
uh or their clergy person and so
that really emphasized the importance of
spirituality and faith
in the lives of the people that we serve
and so
that's how i've tried to kind of merge
those two different aspects through the
work that i do
amazing it's so great and so important
i'm hoping that you could describe to us
the work that you're doing with the
first corinthian baptist church
and the hope center so the the hope
center is um a freestanding
mental health clinic that was created
out of first corinthian baptist church
um they provide 10 to 12
sessions of evidence-based therapy like
cognitive behavioral therapy
interpersonal psychotherapy group
therapy and they provide marital
counseling
free of charge to members of the harlem
community
and people do not have to be members of
the church to receive services
at the hope center so the pastor and i
of the church he really started the hope
center
because of his own personal struggles
which he's talked
very publicly about uh with depression
as well as you know seeking a therapist
himself
and that really uh fueled his desire to
provide services through the hope center
and so now
i'm really working with them quite
closely to try to
expand their capacity because as you can
imagine people are
thrilled at the idea of getting quality
care
that looks through the lens of
spirituality for free
and we're also forming relationships
expanding relationships
with colombia to provide more access to
psychiatrists to provide medication
management through the hope center
that is so important and what an amazing
thing that they're doing it for free
when we think about psychiatry or
medication
or even just psychotherapy it
seems like there's been somewhat of a
negative relationship between psychiatry
and the black community
is that true and if it is how come that
is
well i think the relationship between
medicine in general and psychiatry
and in particular you know historically
has been
um a tenuous one i think generally
uh you know because of systemic racism
and because african americans
historically were barred
access to health care services that
has con contributed to a tremendous
amount of distrust in the black
community
with health care in general other
instances like
the tuskegee syphilis study where over
300 black men
in tuskegee alabama were blatantly lied
to
through a federally funded research
study and told that they were receiving
free treatment for syphilis
when in fact they received no treatment
at all the scientists
just studied syphilis over the life
course in these men
that really um
has created such a a chasm
between medical research and healthcare
in general
um and the black community that we're
seeing it today
when people are talking about vaccine
hesitancy
it's important to contextualize it with
the history of the united states
government
lying to african-american men
and so i think it's very important to
understand this history
with medicine and with medical research
in general
it's because of that that study that all
studies now
have to have an institutional review
board
which reviews the ethics and make sure
that
people know that they're participating
in a study voluntarily
um that emerged out of the atrocity of
the
tuskegee syphilis study so i think
that's the first
layer of this psychiatry in
general also has a a fraught
relationship
with the black community one of the ways
that that has happened
is because uh black men who have
psychotic symptoms
are predominantly are more likely to be
diagnosed with schizophrenia
compared to white men with psychotic
symptoms or more likely diagnosed with
bipolar disorder or major depression
with psychotic features
and so because of this misdiagnosis
which has led to harsher medications and
harsher treatment
that has certainly created distrust with
the the psychiatric field as well
and i think another factor that's
contributed to
distrust is that psychiatry or many
psychiatrists
um have had a
i would say an antagonistic view
of people's spiritual beliefs and given
how central
you know faith and spirituality in the
church is in the lives of african
americans
it certainly has created a sense of
distrust
uh i think with with psychiatry uh in
the black community in general
wow i have to say i'm i'm embarrassed
and ashamed and i didn't know
about any of that so that's that's
crazy and that makes so much sense what
do you think could make it better
well i think in terms of uh addressing
the distrust
uh between you know the psychiatric
field
and the black community i think several
things can can make it better
one is talking about it uh i think to
your point
about people need to know about tuskegee
people need to know about the high rates
of psychiatric misdiagnosis
in black men people need to know about
the high rates of
psychiatric diagnosis in black boys who
when we look at diagnostically have ptsd
or depression
and are more likely than white boys to
be diagnosed with conduct disorder
so i think we have to talk about these
issues and these racial and ethnic
differences in diagnosis
as well as the history of of racism as
it relates to
some medicine generally and to
psychiatry in particular
i think a second thing that we need to
do is to
try to form strategic you know
partnerships with trusted
community-based organizations
such as churches and barber shops and
hair salons
um so i've actually done studies with
barbers uh you know when you sit in that
barber chair
or when you sit in that beauty salon you
have
a couple of hours and those folks are
really
kind of informal counselors as well and
so leveraging the trust
of you know these community settings i
think will go a long way
in addressing some of that you know
distrust
and then i think the third way is really
creating spaces
you know you mentioned um cultural
humility
the reality is is that only three
percent of psychiatrists in this country
are black
three percent and so it's incumbent upon
the field
to incorporate trainings around cultural
humility
so that everyone is aware of some of
these historical injustices
and is attuned so to some of these
factors that contribute to distrust
uh you know in communities of color it's
such important work and it's it's work
that could change the world
really because you know we have these
inequalities and i think
you know i like i love the notion of
talking about it
i think what's what's just hard is that
is the
where and then how do you how do you
engage people
i mean i don't know that we know these
answers but like how do people start
talking about it what can just
what could people do that
that you found i mean you've done a lot
um
and i think that it seems like
everything that you're doing
is focused on the black communities and
helping educate them but there's that
whole other side of it which is
that not black communities that need to
understand it so what could we do
how can we help for everybody that that
cares and wants to be part of this
change
well i think um in terms of what
everyone can do
to address issues around you know racial
injustice and to truly promote equity
uh 2020 was a catalyst for this uh
and people are calling 2020 that the
year of
racial awakening or racial reckoning
what however you want to call it
and i think you know the murder of
george floyd really
opened so many people's eyes to what has
been known by folks
in communities of color for centuries
about the injustices and in the
inequities
in the systems that are supposed to be
helping us
that are naturally uh in in many cases
harm us and so i think that we are at a
critical point
in being able to continue these
conversations and not let last year just
be
um you know an awareness but
hopefully turn that awareness into
action uh such that
uh we have these conversations more
regularly
and we try to increase our our tolerance
for discomfort because they are
uncomfortable conversations
and they need to be uncomfortable but i
think
in that discomfort we can work our way
through to a more equitable and just
society
thank you for all this great work that
you're doing it is
so important you know we're very focused
on
evidence-based practices at cycle and as
as our
as is colombia what are some of the
measures that you use to determine
the effectiveness of uniting mental
health and spirituality
so that's a great question in terms of
thinking about how do we measure
the impact of you know mental health and
spirituality
so we currently have a federally funded
study by the national institutes of
health
that involves 30 churches in harlem and
we have recruited and trained
um community health workers from these
churches who are going to be delivering
motivational interviewing which is an
evidence-based intervention
uh originally developed for substance
use disorders but we're tailoring it for
for depression and we're going to be
looking at its impact
on clinical outcomes so depressive
symptoms like the patient health
questionnaire 9
the quick inventory of depression as
well as
functioning so we'll be looking at the
short form 12 to see how people are
functioning
overall at 3 and 6 months
after they received this intervention
and our main
outcome is treatment engagement so do
people actually
go get care when they are clinically
depressed
does this intervention have an impact on
people actually
seeking you know mental health services
so those are some of the outcomes that
we're looking at
um all of which will be assessed by kind
of level of spirituality
which includes church attendance prayer
frequency of you know importance of
spirituality
and other variables like that
i have to think that doing all of that
work and measuring those outcomes
goes back to changing the paradigm is
that then you can use that and people
can use that to share stories
to help to prove that there is there
that this help does work and it is
effective and that might
over time hopefully combat some of that
distrust
absolutely i i absolutely believe and
the evidence
suggests that the one of the most
effective ways
at reducing stigma is through contact
with someone who
has had a mental health problem has
gotten treatment
and has gotten better yeah so there is
there is strong evidence that those
stories
uh move people's hearts and minds
in a way that education in and of itself
just cannot
and so one of the things i'm really
excited about is is developing
strategies to have people share that's
their stories uh and to measure the
impact that it has on behavior change on
attitudes and on
uh actually people seeking treatment
wow well you truly are an expert and
and i'm so grateful to have you on this
series talking about these important
issues i hope that we get to stay close
and stay connected to you because uh
you're doing
some of the most important work right
now that needs to be done and it's
it's healing and it's healing you know
interpersonally but it's
also healing communities and it's
it's hard and uh i commend you for
really diving into the hard work because
my guess is is that you could be sitting
in an office
seeing patients and that they're not
saying there's anything wrong people
that do that but there could be an
uh you could have taken an easier path
and you're choosing a path to really
make a difference and leave a legacy so
thank you thank you my pleasure and
thank you so much for your kind words
and i think platforms like psych hub
really
uh give people access to
the type of information that they
normally wouldn't have so it's a
pleasure to be able to be
with you all today as always
thank you for listening to our podcast
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