How the PM role is changing in 2024 | PM expert panel
Summary
TLDR在这段引人入胜的讨论中,三位产品领袖深入探讨了产品经理(PM)角色的演变,及其如何逐渐从内部流程转向更加关注客户和产品。从Airbnb的案例出发,讨论了如何减少“内部琐事”,并通过具体例子揭示了如何更有效地连接和理解客户需求。此外,还涉及了产品经理使用人工智能(AI)的趋势,以及在当前严峻的就业市场中,如何打破常规,通过创新和改变找到或创造机会。这次讨论不仅为产品经理们提供了前沿的行业洞见,也为想要进入或在产品领域内部转型的人士提供了宝贵的建议。
Takeaways
- 📊 产品管理(PM)的角色在过去10年中逐渐演变,更多地关注内部流程和系统,而较少关注客户和产品。
- 🎯 PM的角色需要重新聚焦于客户,减少内部流程的干扰,以提高对产品的关注度和创新。
- 🚀 Airbnb等公司正在尝试改变PM的角色,更多地关注产品和客户,而不是流程和指标。
- 🤝 PMs需要与设计师和工程师等其他职能团队紧密合作,共同推动产品的发展。
- 🌟 优秀的PM领导者不仅需要关注细节,还要能够激发团队的潜力,推动整个组织的进步。
- 🛤️ PM职业发展不应该是单一的线性路径,而是可以根据个人兴趣和技能发展多样化的职业道路。
- 💡 PMs应该持续学习和实践,保持对新技术和行业趋势的敏感性,如人工智能(AI)的应用。
- 🧠 面试用户时,应该让用户多说话,通过倾听来获取深刻的洞察和反馈。
- 🔍 在寻找新工作时,要深入了解潜在公司的文化和价值观,确保与个人职业目标和工作风格相匹配。
- 🌐 利用社交媒体和网络平台来建立个人品牌和扩大职业网络,这对于PM职业发展非常重要。
- 📈 保持对数据和分析的关注,这对于PM做出基于数据的决策和提高产品性能至关重要。
Q & A
在过去10年中,产品经理的时间分配发生了哪些变化?
-产品经理越来越多的时间被内部流程、内部系统和内部沟通占据,从而减少了了解客户和专注于产品的宝贵时间。
Airbnb如何开始思考将重点转移到更加注重客户的方向上?
-Airbnb开始思考如何将产品经理的时间分配图表从更多关注内部流程转变为更加客户关注和对客户的着迷。
Sonan在Airbnb的职位是什么?
-Sonan曾是Airbnb的产品管理头。
Nikki在Duolingo的角色是什么?
-Nikki是Duolingo的产品指导,负责新科目倡议。
产品经理角色的演变包括哪些方面?
-产品经理角色的演变包括更多地关注于客户体验、使用原型驱动的产品管理而不是规范驱动,以及更加战略性的设计参与。
产品经理在工作中面临的常见挑战是什么?
-产品经理常面临的挑战包括大量时间用于参加会议、处理状态报告、遵循复杂的流程以及进行日常站立会议,这些都分散了他们的注意力。
Airbnb如何改变其产品开发方法?
-Airbnb采用市场叙事先行的方法,从用户生活将如何因产品发布而改变的角度出发,进行产品设计和开发。
产品经理在职业发展中可以选择哪些路径?
-产品经理在职业发展中可以选择包括成为创始人、转向邻近领域(如市场营销或产品运营)或继续深入专业领域而不是追求管理职位的路径。
面对困难的就业市场,产品经理应如何提升自己?
-产品经理应通过夜间和周末的个人项目、学习新技能(如AI技术)以及实际操作经验来提升自己。
如何有效地进行用户访谈以获得最有价值的洞察?
-进行用户访谈时,应尽量少说话,让用户多表达,通过开放式问题引导用户分享他们的体验和感受,以获取深入的洞察。
Outlines
📈 产品管理的演变与未来
本段落讨论了产品管理(PM)的角色在过去10年中如何发生变化,特别是内部流程、系统和沟通占据了PM越来越多的时间,导致他们无法专注于理解和创新产品。讨论了Airbnb如何开始思考如何将这种趋势转变为更加以客户为中心,减少内部事务的干扰。提到了Brian Chesky受到苹果公司的启发,以及Airbnb如何通过原型驱动的产品管理而非规格驱动,来提高对客户的理解。
🤝 产品管理与设计的合作
这一段讨论了产品管理与设计之间的关系如何发展,特别是设计师在业务战略方面的日益重要性。强调了产品经理需要放弃对设计的控制,认可设计师的战略思维,并将他们纳入业务视角。同时,建议产品经理仍需提升自己的设计感,但要意识到专业知识应由专家来提供。
🚀 PM职业发展的多样化路径
本段讨论了PM职业发展的多样化路径,不仅仅局限于成为VP或CPO。提到了一些PM选择继续深入产品工艺,有的成为创始人,有的转向市场营销、产品运营或客户成功团队等相邻领域。强调了职业发展应该是多方向的,并且应该根据个人的兴趣和激情来调整。
💡 利用AI提升产品管理效率
这一段讨论了AI如何帮助产品管理人员提高效率和创造力。分享了一些AI工具的使用案例,如使用AI进行数据分析、创建培训材料、自动化OKR审查等。强调了AI技术对于产品管理职业的重要性,并建议产品管理人员积极学习和实践AI工具。
🤔 如何在面试中获取用户洞察
本段讨论了在用户面试中获取深刻洞察的策略,强调了让用户提供信息的重要性,并建议产品管理人员在面试过程中尽量少说话,多倾听。推荐了一些资源和技巧,如阅读Steve Portigal的书和使用ChatGPT来帮助准备面试指南。
🌟 成为优秀的产品领导者
这一段讨论了成为优秀的产品领导者所需的核心技能,包括对细节的深入了解、对行业和竞争对手的熟悉程度,以及如何放大团队的工作成果。强调了领导者需要具备的人际技能,以及如何识别和适应组织的文化和价值观。
Mindmap
Keywords
💡产品经理
💡内部流程
💡客户理解
💡产品创新
💡职业发展
💡AI应用
💡激励机制
💡产品领导力
💡组织变革
💡双重职业路径
Highlights
在过去的10年中,产品经理的时间越来越多地被内部流程、系统和沟通所占据,这削弱了他们理解客户和专注于产品的能力。
Airbnb开始思考如何将饼图转向更多以客户为中心、专注于客户的方向发展,减少内部流程的时间消耗。
产品管理角色正在发生变化,特别是在2024年,这一趋势正在加速。
Airbnb的产品管理不再是基于规格驱动,而是基于原型驱动,更多地与设计团队合作,制造想要发布的产品。
激励机制应该从上至下设计,公司文化主要由执行团队或创始人决定。
在设计激励机制时,应考虑直接与客户反馈和产品影响挂钩,而非仅仅依赖于同事或利益相关者的反馈。
产品管理角色在不同公司中差异很大,因此激励机制也应根据公司具体情况进行调整。
Airbnb采用营销叙事的方法来指导产品开发,从与用户沟通的角度出发,而不是从产品发布的角度。
激励机制应鼓励团队成员关注客户对产品的体验和感受,确保团队朝着共同的目标努力。
产品管理职业发展不应仅限于成为VP或CPO,还可以考虑创业、产品运营、客户成功团队领导等多元化路径。
产品领导者应该深入细节,了解用户和行业动态,以便更好地引导和放大团队的工作。
产品领导者需要具备强大的团队协作和领导能力,了解如何通过团队合作实现目标。
产品管理职业发展应像攀爬游乐场的攀爬架一样,而不仅仅是线性的梯子,要尝试不同的事物,找到自己的兴趣所在。
当面试用户时,应该让用户多说话,产品经理应该倾听而不是过多地谈论自己的产品。
产品领导者应该关注组织的变革能力,寻找愿意并能够适应和推动变革的环境。
在面试过程中,了解公司的运作方式、决策流程和直接上级的管理风格是非常重要的。
AI技术为产品经理提供了新的机会,可以通过实践和学习来提高自己在这一领域的技能。
产品经理可以通过构建自己的AI产品或参与相关课程来提高自己的技能,并为未来的职业发展打下基础。
Transcripts
if you draw a pie chart and divide every
PM's time spent increasingly over the
last 10 years it has gone towards
internal processes internal systems
internal communication taking away the
precious time needed to understand the
customer and actually focus on the
product right and that is why the
Genesis started at airbm start thinking
about how can we switch that py chart
into more customer focused customer
obsessed and less on the internal I
don't want to use the word Shenanigans
but like let's just use the word
shenanigans you know internal stuff I'll
give you a couple of examples right
there's meetings there's status reports
there's conbine processes to manage
there's scrum standups to go to there's
a lot of stuff that PMS do right and as
a result they lose time and Jealousy on
that that's one Trend that happened
today my guests are sonan exgen manager
at Airbnb Nikki product director at
dualingo and John senior director at
toast we talked about how the PM row is
evolving the case for du career track
for PMS our favorite product manager use
cases for AI and how to avoid PM title
and the and pick your own path over 200
people tune into this conversation live
so I think you'll love it too be sure to
like And subscribe for more interviews
like this let's get started yeah I'm
super excited to be here today I guess
today we're going to talk about how the
PM rooll is evolving and how you can
also Advance your product career and I'm
really lucky today to be joined by three
amazing product leaders I'll let them
introduce themselves San do you want to
go first happy do hey everybody welcome
I'm excited to be here U my name is
sonin I've been in Silicon Valley for
the last 18 years my first job was at
Microsoft that brought me over here most
recently I was at coinbase as a v
product and then before that I was a
head of product at Airbnb and before
that amongst the first 100 employees of
Instagram it was a fun ride excited to
be here thanks Nikki you want to go next
great thing so I'm calling in from
almost snowy not quite snowy Minnesota
and currently I'm a director of product
at du lingo where I manag the new
subjects initiative but I've been
working in product roles for I think
like 13 or 14 years I was also at Airbnb
where I worked on Airbnb experiences so
sonan how's it going good to see you and
then before that I was a director of
product at Etsy and I was an early
employee at Etsy I joined also in their
first 100 employees which was also a
crazy wild ride so I'm excited to be
here today I think the PM role has
really evolved in my last 13 years but
is really speeding up and changing
especially into 2024 so happy to be here
with you all okay and last but not least
John uh John Cutler I currently work at
toast in an interesting role senior
director of product enablement so I
enable our great PMs and product teams
prior to toast I was at amplitude where
I was a product evangelist for four
years I probably met with many of your
companies while I did that which was a
lot of fun and then worked at zenes and
pendo and a couple other companies after
a life of plain music and other things
before I got into Tech so that's a bit
about me and I write a newsletter I
enjoy writing a lot and drawing pictures
of product stuff awesome so I also want
to say that you know for all of our
panelists everything that we say here is
our own opinion doesn't represent our
employers just get that out of the way
so let's start with the PM row itself
right so maybe I'll share two anecdotes
to start I think a few months ago breski
from Airbnb shared that he had
eliminated the classic PM function and
then later he had to clarify that he
actually meant unifying product
management and product marketing and
recently I think it's because spent too
much time on Twitter but recently I seen
several startup Founders talk about you
know how they're proud of not hiring PMs
and you know also they're more focused
on Craft than on AB testing or metrics
so curious to hear from all of you about
the PM rooll I guess s CH I start with
you since you worked at Airbnb yeah
happy to share so actually one thing
I'll share is even though the
announcement happened right now when I
was there the journey or the path had
already started so I'll actually want to
share with you all the Genesis of this
idea a little bit more so how many of
you when asked at your company's survey
say man I spend like 80% of my time on
internal meetings internal processes
internal things you know and as a result
I don't have enough time you know I'm
overloaded with the if you can just type
in over there or give me a response
that'll be great because a lot of times
what I hear is like oh my God 80% of my
time is going into this internal
the other thing that I hear a
lot is oh my God I can't I don't have
enough time to talk to my customers I
don't have enough time to innovate
because I am drowning in meetings or
status reports or something else right I
mean these are the most common thing
that I hear a lot and that was true at
Airbnb too back in the day right so one
of the things that happened was Brian
chesy was inspired by Apple you know
there's a lot of people at Airbnb in the
board as well who are who are from Apple
and the the thought process was if you
draw a high chart and divide every PM's
time span increasingly over the last 10
years it has gone towards internal
processes internal systems internal
communication
taking away the precious time needed to
understand the customer and actually
focus on the product right and that is
why the Genesis started at airbn start
thinking about how can we switch that
pie chart into more customer focused
customer obsessed and less on the
internal I don't want to use the word
Shenanigans but like let's just use the
word Shenanigans you know internal stuff
I'll give you a couple of examples right
there's meetings there's status reports
there's conbine processes to manage
there's scrum standups to go to there's
a lot of stuff that PMS do right and as
a result they lose time and Jealousy on
that that's one Trend that happened the
other Trend that happened was that Brian
personally came from a design world and
if you ever talk to a designer you know
they don't made the painting you know
because they did a user research with 10
customers and said this is what the
painting should say they don't work like
that right the way they work is like I
build what I want to build and I'll find
people who actually love what I'm
selling right so what the process
changes as well from ideation right
right so at Airbnb AB testing was truly
a bad word it doesn't mean that you you
don't AB test but what it meant was if
you ever ask someone what are you
working on they don't open up an Excel
spreadsheet line by line showing you the
hypothesis and the experiments they're
going to run and the unit economics that
they're going to get out of that that is
the how the what was equally more
important so as PMS you'll be spending a
lot of your time thinking about what are
we building why are we building who's it
who are we building for and with an
awesome design team be fabricating what
we call the Prototype of what it is
building so at Airbnb it's a prototyp
driven product management not a spec
driven product management right I don't
remember any of my PMS riding detail
prds you know I remember a lot of them
spending a lot of time with designers
actually making the product that we want
to ship so we can touch it feel it smell
it you know again you can't smell
software but you get that and the the
the metaphor that I'm using over here is
that was really important so I think
those were the two trends that led to
the outcome that Brian has announced
recently you know but this is a trend
that I think everybody has to understand
because I don't think everybody should
adopt what Airbnb is doing just like
everybody shouldn't adopt what apple is
doing right just like everybody
shouldn't adop what Google is ring one
of the biggest mistakes you can make is
you join startup X and say I came from
company Y and work for them it's going
to work over here as well I think that's
another thing to keep in mind is that
does it doesn't happen that way so you
have to contextualize all the learnings
but I do believe that the product
management time span has to shift away
from internal cooking inter internal
management to actually be more allowed
to do more on customer building the
product testing the product Etc around
there so I'll pause there and then we
can go around the RO and there's a lot
more to unpack here yeah the only thing
I would build on that was so I also used
to work at Airbnb so this was really
interesting when I heard that news but
as somebody who's worked at a number of
different companies in in various
different product roles both IC roles as
well as management roles one thing I've
seen is the PM role is very different
inside of every company and it should be
right like you're building a very
different product everywhere you have
different sorts of customers that have
different needs and so I was excited to
see Airbnb experimenting I think they're
doing what's right for their product
which feels like a trend I imagine
you'll continue to see as people evolve
their orgs and figure out just what
works from a process standpoint for them
so good on them I'm really curious to
see like what the next couple years look
like for them honestly but I I was
excited to hear it yeah I think one one
thing I would add there meeting so many
teams and my role in amplitude is I
started to think of product management
is just a collection of hats and you
started to I met team that just ran the
complete Spectrum so like this Airbnb
thing did not surprise me in one bit
because I could just pattern match
across other companies that had decided
to put those hats on those particular
heads as you were kind of working
through so the one thing I observed too
at amplitude was it was almost like I
was you know not only is the role
different but the product management
role I I would say that on any given
week it was like a 20year journey of
maturity of different companies where
they were you know we'd be talking to
some companies it felt like it was 2002
and some companies it felt like it was
2022 in the same week right so the thing
that occurred to me there is that it's
very easy to pinpoint these specific
transitions for specific companies
realistically you know there's some orgs
where engineering wears some of those
particular hats there's some orgs where
design wears some of those hats there's
some where pmm wears some of those hats
so that's one thing that really hammered
home that product there are product
managers and there is product management
and product management is a series of
half
and some companies product managers
choose to wear some of those hats or not
and frankly I've seen other companies
that said we have no product managers
yet every product management hat was
being worn by someone they just didn't
decide on the title of that so I I just
add there the difference between product
management and product managers and the
hats that you wear you notice the
Spectrum as you go out and interact with
different companies yeah so true and
Peter one part of the question I don't
think we dug deeper into but if we can
take two seconds to talk about it your
question was also how you know l years
of the world that are posting on Twitter
and others they don't need some of that
stuff is also happening so I wanted to
add a little bit of that comment over
there if that's okay go for yeah so I
think one thing I want to also share is
product development methodology and
approach is also very unique across
companies so one is the role of product
management is different and the other is
how companies actually build products
itself is also different so I want to
take a minute to talk with you all about
how Airbnb decided to build products
over the last three years or so so often
times what we do is we write a PRD or do
a design mock or whatever that might be
you know H for a feature or a group of
features or a product area right and
then what we do is the entire company
does that and everybody has resource
constraints so they cut things and in
the end what ships is literally your orc
chart or some version of that orc chart
that is not fun for the customer so what
air does is slightly different there's a
guy by the name of hiroi you can search
him he was Steve Jobs left-hand guy and
he actually left Apple to join Airbnb to
become the Chief marketing officer at
Airbnb so I work very closely with him
and now both product and marketing
reported to him by the as a as an
example so this is how it works at
Airbnb the first thing at Airbnb that
they write is what is known as a
marketing narrative it is a simple
language term description of what will
happen to a user's life when your
Partnerships so they work backwards from
the communication to the user rather
than forward from what can we ship and
then craft a narrative for the user user
of what is shipped there's a fundamental
difference in the approach that this
company takes it is very much inspired
by Hardware companies and Apple for
example and this is the the difference
you'll see so twice a year they do major
releases and at that time they have
written down the narrative this is what
we're going to ship and this is what the
customer must feel for example when I
book when I want to travel at Airbnb and
I'm traveling with a large group of
people I'm able to easily find the home
that I desire that's the marketing
narrative that they're writing and from
there each team that takes that
marketing narrative thinks about what
products they must ship to meet that
marketing narrative so there's never a
debate on hey you know we got a cut
features to ship you know there another
Paradigm of Lean Startup right like
cutting is shipping you might have heard
this before right in Airbnb World
slightly different which is here's the
marking narrative we got to rise to that
occasion and ship that cohesive
structure and the biggest advantage of
this is that if there are five or six
different teams working together they're
all working with the same outcome in
mind as opposed to your backend team
cutting certain features while your
front end team is not cut certain
features and what ships becomes very
unusable by the user so this is another
thing that I wanted to just highlight to
make sure people understand how obsessed
Airbnb is about the customers
understanding of their product and the
Simplicity of the journey so as product
leaders how do you design the incentives
right cuz I show me incentives and I'll
show result so like as company scale you
have these career ladders and you know
you get evaluate based on you know some
big product review and like stakeholder
feedback you don't get value it based on
like customer feedback necessarily yeah
how do you design incentives for big
companies to actually focus more on
building and customer interaction yeah I
mean um I can share some example that I
would love to hear others as well but I
think this all starts down U very top
down you know I always tell people is
that your company's culture is pretty
much dictated by your executive team or
the founder that you're working at right
so I think it's really important to
start at the top and I think Peter to
your point the aligning of this in
successful companies that I've seen is
very much about the what and the outcome
I'll give you an example when I was at
certain companies that I don't want to
name you know because it'll be published
somewhere and then I'll have to be sorry
if I use their name but I just just
assume there was a company that I worked
with where peer feedback was very
important as a result of that nobody
bloody pushed boundaries because I was
worried what Peter Yang is going to say
in my perer feedback at the ual
performance review so I'm just going to
do the the least controversial that
I can to put this thing forward right so
the most successful companies that I
worked in I have found that what you
deliver was very important and peer
feedback did not make more than 10% of
the rating of a person's performance
review right so this just an example of
how you can strengthen these things so
customer Obsession customer focus
translates very clearly sometimes in the
output and the impact you're delivering
for your area right so the conversations
in right performance reviews in the
right company should be obsessed over
what did we deliver for the customer
what was the impact of delivering that
and I'm not saying the how is not
important yes you got to work with
people you got to have collaboration Etc
but the way you attach to some of these
other things that are culture Killers
like peer feedback you know stakeholder
reviews oh did I get a chance to have a
product review with the CEO because if
if one of my colleagues did they have a
feedback from the CEO saying that
product review was amazing I don't even
have a chance to do that so how will I
get promoted right those secondary
things are not very important that's one
example that I think we should think
about and I personally as a leader as I
built Airbnb and coinbase product
management organization to me not all
feedback is gift sorry Cheryl sber not
all feedback back is gift at feedback is
paralyzing it forces people to sometimes
not do the right thing so I'm also of
the camp that incentivize need to be
aligned towards the customer obession
awesome uh Nikki and John i' love to
hear from you on this topic too yeah
yeah I was the first thing that comes to
mind I realized in the last year of my
career at least don't fool yourself into
believing you can perfectly design
incentive systems in that sense that
there's a lot of second and third order
effects and it kind of assumes a certain
worldview of everyone you work with so
I'll give you a specific example you you
know I'll talk to a leader they'll say
well well everyone just wants this you
know everyone just wants that and you'll
talk to those people and they don't just
want that they might have a very you
know some people are craft oriented some
people are really like the process that
they're working through some people
could care less about how they got there
they only want to know kind of what that
thing is and maybe some people do care
about career advancement all the time
and doing this stuff so just to add you
know as the counterbalance to what s
just said is that I've come very
cautious about designing games for teams
because and I think that this is what I
would say is incentives start with the
behaviors of the leaders and what you
celebrate and the behaviors of what you
value and what you talk about and if you
don't it's so easy to overthink
incentives like you can design a game
for everyone but really it does start
with what do we spend a bulk of our time
talking about an example being you know
when the first three slides of a deck
are all about the process of the team
and then you only spend a little bit of
time at the end talking about how the
customer felt when they used it that's
essentially creating part of the
incentive system that you had so I think
it for product leaders listening you
know don't always I think be cautious
about your ability to design the perfect
incentive system especially assuming
that everyone in the world thinks just
like you because they probably don't
start with the behaviors that send the
messages that you want to send and then
I think incent people often craft the
incentives they care about around those
outcomes in that part of the culture so
I mean just as a counter balanced that
statement Nikki curious uh your thoughts
yeah one one thing to add so I think
this is something that dualingo does
really well actually and you know you
can feel this when you use their product
right it's just very delightful clearly
designed around customer needs and one
of the big things that is incentivized
and talked about every like all the way
up to the product review with the CEO
down into like team product reviews is
do customers like this is this going to
have a good impact are we hitting
achieving the outcomes that we've set
out to achieve and I think if you can do
a good job of just making sure that's
baked into your culture so that comes up
in it's in job ladders it's in
performance review feedback it is
basically everywhere and everyone's
talking about it then the org will take
it seriously and they'll bake it into
the product itself and I think you can
tell honestly like if you use a product
I was going to try to pick one I don't
want to pick on anyone's product in case
there's somebody out there but you can
kind of tell when you use somebody's
product if the product team is not
incentivized with the right things right
like you're like oh there's a lot of red
notifications here clearly it's
different teams fighting with each other
over eyeballs things like that right and
so I think just making sure that's part
of your process just is extremely
impactful love that all right so along
similar lines let's talk about a dual
career track for PMS so you know like
there's been a lot of layoff recently
and middle managers were hit especially
hard and now you know head counts very
constrained at many companies and you
know before it was like hey how can I
manage more PMS how can like manage
managers and now so like so now that
there isn't as much of an option to hire
and build a team do you guys think like
a IC plus management track is possible
for PMS or is that already happening why
don't we start with Nikki actually on
this yeah yeah yeah so I I hope to see
more of this honestly I think one thing
that I've really enjoyed in my career
and I've taken roles very strategically
based on my desire to keep my hands on
the product I haven't really wanted to
layer myself with a bunch of managers
away from actually building the product
and I've been able I've been lucky
enough where I've been able to kind of
keep very close tabs on the product
itself and so I'm kind of in a pseudo IC
management role right now I have a team
but I'm also still shipping stuff and so
this is just my advice to people is get
really clear on like what you're looking
for in your career some people really
are amazing managers and they love to
manage and some people do not like to
manage but because of career ladders and
the way that they are so linear we push
people into management roles a lot when
it's not always good for them and so I
hope to see more of this sort of like
dual management meet IC as long as we're
not burning people out because I think
it's hard to do both things well at the
same time but I'm hoping maybe that will
be a good output of some of the harder
Tech environment times we're in right
now yeah I think the one thing that
comes to that too is being very
conscientious about disrupting your
career because I noticed that just
looking at hiring in the last year a lot
of people were wandering into interviews
and they' kind of lost their Edge and
their basic claim to success was either
one or two or three companies they
worked at and their ability to manage
lots of people and they' really lost
their Edge for talking about outcomes
and talking about you know so they had
become you know just career managers in
that case and I think that people need
to be very conscientious about purposely
disrupting that track and so if you feel
yourself potentially slipping into that
I think it's going to be a lot harder in
these coming years there's just going to
be less demand for folks who are needed
for that type of thing and so I've met a
lot of leaders recently who have just
purposely down ranked you know they've
taken titles lower than that in in an
effort to really like sharpen their
skill set again and just be current and
so I think it's something folks need to
keep in mind such and interested what
you think about that yeah I think so a
couple of companies that actually do
have dual track as well so plus one
everything ni John said and I think if
you look at Facebook you go all the way
up to an IC track to product director
level so that's an L8 which is a product
director at Facebook is a pretty
decently chunky role you have a large
team that you're managing but there's
also a product director who's at IC as
well uh similarly at coinbase during the
last year or two we also tried to create
an IC role as well and at Airbnb we went
it all the way to principal so I think
it's it's possible to do that but
there's also understanding that unlike
the technical ladder you know where you
can become a distinguished engineer or
like a VP IC level VP I think in the
product management L it becomes really
hard to figure out what it looks like
beyond that distinguished product
manager exactly really funny like what
is that right what does that even mean
right so so I think the short answer is
yes there should there you should
absolutely continue to rise in the IC
track it's totally possible to rise in
that all the way up to product director
level and I think you can do that and
it'll be very successful because you're
going to like Nikki said you're going to
continue to sharpen your skills but at
the same time also recognize that at
some point in time that becomes not
standable afterwards as well but for
majority of the people that's a good
path awesome all right so I'm going to
take a few questions from uh the
audience now so the first question is
from Jack which is how do you see the
relationship between PMs and designers
evolving in the coming years anyone want
to take a crack of that do you say
relationship or ratios or both
relationship yeah we can talk about
ratios if you want this is this I I'll
just take it maybe I'll do a 10c stab at
least in a lot of companies that I'm
observing is designers are becoming
increasingly really strategic and
business savvy and I think that the main
thing from a product manager standpoint
is I mean I remember I don't know 2005
or something like that if you were a PM
you basically did everything you did
everything oh oh you're writing the
marketing copy you're doing this you're
doing all these things oh I'm going to
just pick some code I'm going to do
these things and then there was a time
there where you were even like these
design sense exercises for PMS I don't
believe in them at all like that's why
we hire amazing designers I did an
interview at Facebook once and they're
like we're going to test you on design
sense and my answer cuz I've been in a
company with amazing designers is like
why why would we do this I mean we and
then I didn't get I didn't even get
called back for that thing so so my
point is that like designers are
becoming increasingly business savvy and
I know what s was getting at is that
prototypical Designer like I just want
to ship and everyone's going to come to
the thing but I think that is I think
PMS are going to need to let go of some
of the Reign and like some of their
habits that they developed in certain
organizations it's probably different at
Airbnb but in many organizations PMS
need to let go of the delusion that they
had that design sense and then also
start to acknowledge that these folks
that you're working with can be highly
strategic and need to be looped into the
business perspective as well yeah Nikki
yeah I don't know yeah I that's a really
awesome question honestly I agree with
what you said I think like the
partnership between product and design
is going to continue to get really tight
and designers definitely are becoming
more strategic which is wonderful
honestly allows them to be more
autonomous to make the right decisions I
really do think I personally do think
you should still invest in your own
design sense as a PM like I think it's
easy to be like oh that's their job and
when I actually just think you're G your
critical design feedback at times and
hopefully there's no designers in the
room today but I think it can help it
makes the design better it levels up the
product but so I I think that's still a
skill that you should have but I do
agree that designers are becoming more
and more strategic and in a perfect
world like the team is so good that you
as the PM you can can just kind of sit
in the background and they do their
thing and you're just there to kind of
help Shepherd everyone in the right
direction right that's the ideal
scenario although that often is not what
happens so maybe we'll get there someday
or you get fired because you're not
needed anymore because all you were is
the shepherd
yeah yeah I think less shepherding more
doing I guess but I think the short
answer is I think the industry is very
diverse so it's very hard to give one
answer so if you come from the world of
B2B it's very different if you come from
World of b2c it's very different within
b2c there are lots of verticles but I
think overall the macro Trend I see is
that design becoming more and more
strategic in nature having more and more
seat at the table having more
involvement early on in the ideation
phases of the what the product strategy
itself is not in the design ideation
phase but more of a product ideation
phase as well so that trend is clear I
have met some incredible designers in my
career who are who have product sense
design sense and also business sense
right so I think it's important to
leverage them and last but not the least
I just want to remind everybody PMS CH
to General career right we tend to be
more t-shaped than anything else so I
think it's important to understand
Nikki's Point what a great design sense
mean what a great engineering aspects
mean but just don't be delusional that
you know anything better than those
Specialists would so bring them along at
the right space as you continue to do
the product management that you're doing
yeah I have a very specific example just
in 10 seconds is an amplitude one thing
that Justin is ahead of product and then
our and really empowered our designers
to was actually shaping the end of year
Vision that sort of catapulted us into
the next year and it was just an
incredible thing to watch about how
galvanizing that was for the rest of the
company and how it really it's similar
to what I'm hearing a little bit that's
happening in Airbnb but it it really was
like setting that vision and using those
design skills to make that real and
tangible it didn't mean those were the
prototypes it just meant that they were
actually setting those outcomes and that
Vision was just extremely powerful sorry
yeah go ahead you know as I mentioned I
think it's still a very tough job market
right now so this is question from Nate
uh I'm on a hunt for my next job seems
like the only way to get hired these
days is to either having worked at fan
or you know having worked at similar
companies how does one break through
this wall yeah I can start with that one
I really do I mean I think yes people
value Fang experience and it is very
validating for your resume however I
actually really think an early stage
startup experience is can sometimes be
even more validating honestly because
you get to wear so many different hats
and you really can career climb and
career jump faster at a startup then you
can if you go into a Fang and you kind
of got to work your way up their
traditional ladder that takes a long
time so I wouldn't be too worried about
that honestly I would say find a good
series B startup that looks like they're
on some sort of growth rocket ship and I
would argue that you probably are going
to get better experience and you're
going to grow faster that's slightly
controversial hot take but I know Fang
experience is relevant you could
eventually go to a Fang if you have a
really good startup experience so don't
pigeon hole yourself honestly I think
there's lots of other opportunities that
are not Fang and they're still
thankfully at least now startups are
starting to get funded again I think
we've starting to see that flywheel spin
a little bit faster which is good and so
hopefully there there will be more jobs
in those roles soon anyone else want to
anything on this it's hard out there
that's just the bottom I
think yeah I have some on this I I also
agree with Nikki's advice to find a
growing company not necessarily like the
big companies and find one that matches
your domain and skill set and another
hack is like just like find and reach
out to your hiring manager directly
don't be like another resume in the pile
usually the hiring manager is a little
bit more open to if you come from a
non-traditional background if you have a
really good pitch if you did some
research on their product and have some
feedback they'll at least have a
conversation with you so try that just
one thing you just brought up there
remember the economy didn't affect all
companies in the same way so one thing I
noticed big time was that at amplitude
we were dealing with lots of companies
at different things there's a lot of
these kind of like I'll give an example
something like a Lego or one of these
companies like Lego still was selling
stuff this whole time they were actually
like growing their whole product or the
same thing with like a Home Depot or
these companies now normally you'd look
at that and be like oh I might get stuck
in this like slow moving Enterprise
division but that's not the case in all
of those things like there are roles for
Lego popping up around certain Community
plays that they're doing or certain cool
products that they're building and so
one thing I wouldn't is like don't
completely write off large major brands
that are building now that have a strong
leader in a division that you could
understand their background and maybe
worked at a company that you enjoyed
their products if you see that leader
building out those teams they actually
have a lot more budget now than some
other companies have been impacted in a
different way so I don't overlook the
hidden roles that might be out there
just based on what you might assume of a
big company that works in a certain way
that would be a bit of advice to get F
yeah one last thing I would add and I
think this is one of the places where
our industry has really evolved which is
really exciting and this wasn't the case
when I started in my career like 13
years ago but you can also build
something yourself and ship it give
yourself your own practice you could
build an AI bot you could write a
newsletter you could just launch a thing
and practice putting something out in
the world and having people consume it
and learn from that and I I think with
like no code tools and just generally
with AI there's so many things you can
build so much easier today than you
could have 10 years ago so again like if
you really are struggling to find a PM
rooll somewhere create your own PM rooll
for yourself and ship some stuff and
then eventually get your things out
there and more opportunities will come
yeah I think that's a great
transitioning to our next topic which is
you know there's a big AI wave happening
now and in some ways with AI you know
PMs can actually ship stuff themselves
but you know let's say I'm a PM and I'm
not really working on a ji product right
now like how do I ramp up on space and
get my hands dirty any advice I can go
nights and weekends nights and weekends
now go Niki you go that's good advice
yeah I just give myself like a six hour
week experimentation Budget on all this
stuff because I feel I need to stay
sharp and like I build things and like I
just think it's like some like a muscle
you need to learn about if you don't
have the opportunity and then it's P
paid off at work you know just even like
silly things that we've figured out can
be make a lot more even in enablement in
product operations were're able to use
these things but it was only by staying
sharp and researching Nikki go ahead
yeah no I agree with that I think that's
what I've been doing too honestly I just
been trying to use AI multiple times
throughout my day every day and
surprisingly like have becoming I'm
getting more Adept at using it both
personally and professionally and so I
think like just start using it is a good
place to start also just honestly sign
on to Twitter everyone's if you follow
some people in Tech everyone's sharing
awesome new AI use cases every single
day continue to blow my mind and so
continue to just get out there and try
things and you're going to start
learning more and more yeah and I think
one recommendation in addition to
everything that people have said is that
don't be afraid to go into the
technology itself one of the things I've
learned in my career is that unless I
can buy a million products on Amazon I
still may or may not know how to build a
retail product or how to build a
scalable e-commerce thing but if I can
actually understand how the shipping
Works Logistics Works Etc I can probably
do a lot so my advice would be there's
actually a very good course or a set of
courses from Google that are available
for free that I did like six months ago
myself over the weekend night to John's
example and actually help me understand
how the thing actually works and
actually what are the limitations of it
and what the trajectory looks like so I
would also encourage in addition to what
John and Nikki said please give that a
shot as well free course available over
the week weekend you will learn a lot
from it one thing I'd say without going
into specifics because I can't but even
as a company if if you're an enablement
or a leadership role even creating
sandboxes where people can experiment
this is something we've done internally
and trying to clear any legal hurdles or
other things that might exist to be able
to experiment in a very in a way that
will never impact your customers it's
like you you just little things like
that count because in a corporate
environment that there can actually be
just a lot of things that limit your
ability to do it so even if you wanted
to try to solve a problem internally in
your company if you work at any kind of
bigger company it might be harder than
you think so that's like a very
actionable thing if you're a leader to
you know partner with legal and partner
with any team that's working around this
and create a Sandbox environment where
people don't feel worried or limited or
concerned about what's going to happen
with that data because we obviously
don't want anything like that to happen
so that's something you could do another
tip I actually just shipped A J product
and after shipping I realized hey I
actually don't understand exactly how
this thing was built
so another tip is like if you have
Engineers who are experts at this stuff
just like grab 30 minutes of their time
and make them draw diagrams and make
them walk through like how retrieval
augment generation works or how all this
stuff actually works right and I think
you'll learn a lot and and they love
explaining this stuff to to you so let's
wrap up the AI topic let's maybe you
guys can all share one AI use case
either from work or your personal life
that you use like chat GPT or these
products for like what's your favorite
AI use case I train AI or I make it
believe that it's like eight different
people and then I simulate discussions
between those people to create training
internally so for like conflict
resolution or for thinking about how to
handle crucial conversations what I'll
do is I'll actually and if you follow my
writing you can probably tell I'm doing
this behind the scenes and thinking
about it is you know I'll say you know
you've got this individualistic highly
meritocratic leader who believes that
the whole world roles around them and
you've got this you know communitarian
ex hippie who wants to do this and then
you've got this other person and then
I'll have create training material
quickly by getting different
perspectives of people so then people
can learn how to like navigate different
worldviews in their company so that's
like one specific thing I've done in the
last two weeks you should try it it's
funny nian do you wantan to yeah one of
one of the clever use cases that we've
been using at dualingo is somebody at
dualingo made an okr reviewer so you can
pass your quarterly okrs through it and
it basically gives you feedback on you
know are these measurable are they clear
and you know synthesized in a thoughtful
way Etc and it is has it probably saved
me hours this most time like this last
time of okrs just making sure that I was
saying the right things and that they
made sense and it just felt like I had a
little buddy who was helping me out
which I needed that day so that was
great I've also used it at home
personally I've just said okay here's
what's in my fridge what would you make
for dinner and it will send me full
recipes for things which is is stupidly
helpful that's awesome yeah I think I'll
give two use kids one work I use Chad
GPD style usage for data analysis a lot
so I have a lot of data that comes to me
from all different places and I don't
want to create anything of course I have
a data science awesome data science team
that is a lot but still there's a lot of
stuff over there so that's one handy
Nifty buddy for me if I'm presenting to
the board I use it to create certain
charts if I'm analyzing certain aspects
I can do that the second thing that I
just saw was having a work assistant I'm
forgetting the name of the company if I
do find it I'll post it over here but
what it is you know if you want to know
about our travel policy if you want to
know what the paternity maternity leaves
are you know there's now a company that
has a work buddy you know it's you don't
call up HR anymore you don't have to
look at Wei I forget the name but like
you just type and say hey what is our HR
policy or what is our this thing about
that oh what what is the document that
talks about the 2023 vision for the
company you know he just gets everything
done you know so i f over this an
Incredible use case to Traverse a Trav
toes of information in every company
that you join that's amazing I guess
I'll share one too so I got access to
the recent chat gbt voice feature and on
my drive to work like I I basically talk
to it I upload a bunch of custom
instructions about my life and I talk to
it about everything from weekend trips
to stuff at work to you know like my new
newsletter stuff and yeah it's like it's
actually like feels like a real human
conversation in some ways it listens to
you more than real people so it's a
great experience if you have access you
should try it out all right so why don't
we move to our last topic and we'll do a
Q&A so we talked about how the PM R is
involving we talked about how not
everyone wants to be a manager and you
know how individual PMs can leverage AI
maybe you guys can share some idea about
the kind of the end state of the PM
career right like does everyone destined
to become like a VP or CPO or like other
other paths that people can pursue
anyone want to take a go first yeah I
mean I don't think logistically speaking
it's very hard for every to become a CP
and VP either so I don't that's one but
also more important I don't think
everybody wants to I've met a lot of
amazing product people who actually
don't aspire to do that they have other
agenda goals I'll give you two or three
examples that really inspired me um one
is a gentleman at Facebook without
naming his name incredible product
manager comes from design background and
he loves the craft so much that he's
wants to continue to be deep dive like
hands dirty and continue to be that in
their career rather than removing
themsel away from it the other career
path I see PMS do a lot is becoming
Founders you know it's incredible how
many Founders are xpms as well in in
addition to being ex Engineers or ex
designers that's another path that I've
seen and the adjacent path I've seen
many people do is they go into adjacent
disciplines like U marketing like uh
product operations like uh leading
customer success teams in B2B world you
know so they're like adj adjacencies as
well where I feel like they go on and do
amazing things as well so I don't think
everybody should aspire to be and I
don't think everybody wants to be a CPO
VP but I think there are lots of other
opportunities that they can continue to
pursue and continue to make great career
progress career fulfillingness and also
good dollars you know yeah just to add
on that I mean I think one of the things
that I've always it's always kind of
bummed me out about career ladders
generally is like there's a start and a
finish and and it's a linear path that
you have to travel I feel like somebody
uses this analogy so this is not my
analogy and I don't remember who it was
so sorry feel free to post if you know
if you can find this person but I always
like to think about your career as a
instead of a linear ladder it it's like
a jungle gym or some sort of play set
where you can move around and try
different things and really spend the
time figuring out what uniquely is fun
to you and what you like and then move
your career in that direction um and the
cool thing about product management is
you get exposure to so many different
parts of other people's jobs because
you're in touch with so many
stakeholders every day you can really
figure out what sort of fills up your
cup and what you really like and then
you can invest and lean in that so I I
think not everyone has to be a CPO I
think you could be a director of product
if you're into that you could start a
startup if you're into that you could
write a newsletter if you love to write
like John Etc and so I think just you
doing your own internal reflection and
getting clear on like what do I love
about you know product generally and how
do I take that forward is such a good
exercise that you can invest your time
in yeah I mean just to go back to what I
echoed before there is a sort of
generational component to this I'm
almost 50 and there was a time when just
a general awareness of how things work
and where you can fit into different
orgs and the glue you know this glue
idea or the shepherd idea or anything
and that could be very that could take
you a really long way in your career for
a good two decades and I think now
especially when I see people who are 22
I'm going to be a PM and they're
starting when they're 22 I'm just like
doing the math in my head like what's
gonna like 35 40 like I'm doing the math
in my head like what unless they're you
know so I really would recommend that
you think of your product
career is you should build like you
should think of your key skills and then
maybe build out one or two other really
areas of curiosity and interest for
yourself Rel Nikki said so that might be
really deepening this idea of just
general business management like there's
still roles for that it could be you
know some acknowledgement around
operations or it could be service design
or it could be something like ju just
depending on your age and if you're
closer to my age then maybe closer to 22
you should think about
how you build those extra pillars in
your career to be able to not you you
will not be able to rely on just being
an Uber generalist in this particular
space for too much longer and so it's
important to build those extra pillars
those extra chops like I'm doing this
course on deep Finance in the last like
three weeks that I'm going super deep in
that area I'm just you really have to
see it it's the product of you kind of
cliche but you really have to think
about expanding now if you're 22 and you
bought into this whole PM is going to be
a rocket ship forever and you're going
to make tons of money all the time kind
of thing you've got your own thing on
your hands right so it we're going
through a period where that might not be
the case and it might be harder than you
thought so always really think about you
know getting fleshing out your skill set
is something that I would think very
deeply about yeah I think it's easy to
fall for the LinkedIn title Rat Race you
know like but I think only willing to
take a job the next title up is a very
limited view of things like you know
there there's like compensation there's
culture there's what you're actually
interested in so you got to balance all
of that all right so why don't we take
some more questions from the audience to
wrap up so next question is from pry so
priy ask when interviewing a user what
tactics should we follow to extract the
most insights just ask them about how
good your product is and you know no how
how should you actually talk to your
users don't talk a lot just let them
talk that's the best thing I can think
the the if you're in any interview where
you're talking more than 20% of the time
probably something's going wrong you
should re Steve pacal's book on
interviewing users so don't take our
word for it and then the other thing too
is yeah it's that's the major mistake I
see it's just talking too much and only
knowing how to talk a lot and so you
should give yourself extreme challenges
like what would it take to only talk
five or 10% of the time on a call and
then other things come into place as you
learn more about ux research and
different things you're doing uh Nikki
yeah I see some people in the chat
talking about the mom test book I love
that book that is must read if you're a
product person I would also say go to
chat G BT describe your product that
you're working on and the users you're
going to be talking to and have it write
a little interview guide take some of
the stress out of that having to figure
that out yourself that is one thing I've
tried and I found it really useful and
then agree with John don't talk too much
like let them tell you and you can kind
of you know get whisps of their product
needs just on the way they're describing
how they're using the thing which is
cool maybe next question from Adam how
do you think the core skills needed to
be an amazing Pro leader have evolved
and because the question focuses on
leader product leader not an not
anything else I think it's important to
understand what leadership is I think in
my mind great product leaders are past
the phase of basic product Obsession
what do I mean by that when you're in
product leadership position I think
today it's becoming increasingly more
important for these leaders to be very
much into the detail and understand what
is happening the more you become come
becom in a leadership position again I'm
not defined leadership just by the
number of people you manage but just
assume your scope is increasing you have
a large surface area Etc it becomes
harder in order to stay on top of things
so what I I notice a lot is that the
most successful product leaders are so
intimately familiar with the user are so
intimately familiar with the the
industry that they are in and the
competition that they have that they are
like the best Advocate or what's
happening you know so the myth that you
need to burst is that the more leader
like you become the less handson you are
now actually you have to be more and
more hands on you have to be more and
more deep deeply involved that's one
thing I would say the second thing I
would say is if you are if youire if
you're a product leader just remember
the amplification aspect of your job is
really important what do I mean by that
nobody ever got to mount trest alone you
know you need to have to know how to
lead lead teams they don't have to be a
direct reports they have they could they
don't have to you don't even have to
have any reports but the more important
thing you just got to recognize that
it's a team sport it's not tennis it's
soccer it's it's like basketball it's
not tennis right so for the American
audience who don't know soccer there
it's like basketball not tennis so if
you're a product leader please try to
understand what it takes in human skills
perspective to actually amplify the work
of people around you whe that sales that
it's marketing whether it's design
whatever that is one thing I yeah not to
dispute that but I was saying also
decide what kind of person you want to
be like there there are people who
really Pride themselves on being more of
that leader and and empowering like
three four five six seven eight people
to get into all the details there's more
there's some people who take a lot of
passion with craft and there's some
leaders and and having met a lot of them
and who are very successful at what they
do I think also it's like figure out
what your own personal style is and the
environment you want to be in and learn
how to smell out organizations that will
actually value what you want to do and
where you want to be because nothing's
worse than arriving as like operator you
know operator leader who wants to get
into all the details and you arrive in
an org where people are pretty much like
yeah thanks like we don't need that
right now we need you to do something
else so that that's like one bit of
advice I would give folks yeah I love
that to build on that like as you get
more I think as you move along the
career path and you get more senior in
your career you get really good at
figuring out organizationally how
organizations work and when you're
interviewing especially if you're going
to go into a leadership role somewhere
getting really plugged into how they
work what is important to them what
their principles are things like that
will help you make sure that your own
principles like mesh well and that your
skills are going to be additive and not
subtractive in an environment like that
your number one career skill is how to
smell out orgs we should do a whole
session on that but like Po the poor fit
that last to one two three four years of
your life where you can't necessarily
extract yourself immediately from that
and then the drain on you psychically
and those environments there there
should be that we will do a maven course
just on how to know if you've got a good
fit with the place because the
interviews will never tell
you do you go ahead how do you s that
out like is there a question you can ask
the
person when you're interviewing or after
you get the offer any kind of quick tips
on that yeah so I'm relatively newish to
do a lingo I join actually it's been
about two years now so not that new
anymore feel new still and I spent a lot
of time asking a ton of questions
because I had made a different decision
in the the job that I had before and I
didn't love it and I left really quickly
after I joined and so I asked a lot of
questions on like how do you work how
does how do product decisions get made
what does the product review process
look like who's involved who's deciding
and just really spent a lot lot of time
digging into just the day-to-day
operations of their product organization
and then I also really drilled who was
going to be my manager on his management
skills how he likes to work with his
team his communication style all of
those things and ended up feeling great
about what I heard and joined in then
I'm still here two years later and so I
think it's just really kind of again
figuring out like what you like and what
you don't like in your job and just
making sure that's going to you're going
to lean into the things that you like by
asking the right questions I also think
sorry I feel like I'm a broken record
for chat GPT ask chat GPT those types of
questions what you could be asking when
you're interviewing somewhere because
I'm
sure have some zingers for you to add to
that stock members of the board because
you're eventally working for members of
the board so figure out what agendas
they've brought to all their prior
Investments because you're going to end
up working for their incentives and
their agendas and then uh unless you
have a really strong CEO is going to
push back on it and then I would say
that the other thing too is you could
have a completely chaotic messed up org
but there there can be a boundary of
goodness that you can learn a lot so you
all you're picking your leader right
like you're picking the person that
you're going to work with in your
immediate surroundings so you could do
as much as you want on the culture of
the company but there could be an
enclave of goodness or there could be
everything's good but you just happen to
find The Enclave of nat so goodness
those would be two bits of advice sanin
yeah I mean I was just reflecting as you
guys are speaking about my time at
Instagram coinbase and Airbnb I think
the thing that I tried to look at these
companies was the ensity of the
leadership team for change what do I
mean by that you know when I joined
Airbnb a lot of things were messed up
too you know no companies perect there's
always a problem in all these companies
right so my criteria has always been do
the people in power or the people who
are decision maker what is their
propensity for change because I can come
in and build a new product development
life cycle I can change the spec
template I can change the decision flow
I can change information flow but if the
organization is not willing to change
none of that shit's going to happen
right so more more more likely than not
I'll just advise all of you when you
join a startup I was among the first
employees on Instagram lots of broken
problems lots of that was bad then
it was right right and if I just
evaluated against Facebook I would have
failed that test and I would have never
joined Instagram because Facebook had
this amazing thing this is how things
happen this is how the development life
cyle everything was figured out
Instagram had nothing figured out when I
joined um Airbnb the biggest problem
that I heard from PMS including Nik
others was sonin we don't Empower our
PMS Brian chesy makes the decisions you
know how do we fix that right so there
are all these problems in every company
that I've been at what I look for is hey
if I'm coming in can I change does this
organization has nimbleness to change
does the founder has a nimbleness and
and desire to change or not right so
that's the journey I took and luckily it
turned out to be fine for me yeah one
thing to double on that is that know the
difference between chronic problems and
acute problems s what you said really
resonated is that companies that are
making progress if you ask them like how
often you just work things out it might
not happen in one quarter it might not
happen but they'll say you know what six
months I thought it was terrible six
months ago but we went back and worked
it out it's much more important than
those are the you you want fewer chronic
problems and more acute problems which
will come up all the time and evidence
that you've knocked them out so that's
such a great Point s right and all of
you if you're at a PM role I mean you
yourself know at least half your job is
smells like you don't like it
right but you still do it because it's
important to get the right part the
other 50% that you love get that thing
done so every job every company is not
perfect none of them will be perfect if
you're looking for a perfect one you'll
never find one your job is to come into
an imperfectness and just know that the
animal that you join using an analogy is
just willing to change all right yeah I
think we're out of time here but you
know I want to give a chance for our
panelists to share like if you want to
people want to continue conversation
with you or like where can people find
you on the internet I'll start with I I
I guess John who has like a huge
following already I don't log into that
Twitter thing anymore so I'm not it's
going to take me like two three weeks to
get back to you there but
unfortunately LinkedIn that's probably a
good way to get in touch yeah I just
started posting a lot on social medias
at the real sunshin I only talk real
no no so if you want to
follow the real sunin go follow me on
YouTube Instagram I'm over there and
we'll chat more yeah you can follow me
on LinkedIn I also don't really tweet a
lot unfortunately I would love to be a
an ex person but I'm not so follow me on
LinkedIn I also have a newsletter that I
eventually want to get going again it's
nikki. sstack.com awesome and you know
what I am still on Twitter unfortunately
but on Twitter and my newsletter yeah on
X and my newsletter is yeah Critter
economy. and it's great newsletter so
there you go job thank you thank
[Music]
you
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