Is Donbas historically Russian or Ukrainian? | Serhii Plokhy and Lex Fridman

Summary

The script discusses the complex history and current situation of the Donbas region in Ukraine. It highlights the principle of nationalism and how it influenced the political and cultural borders in Eastern Europe. The industrialization of Donbas during the Russian Empire led to a diverse population, with a significant Russian presence. Economic decline and the Rust Belt narrative are also key factors in the region's challenges. The script touches on the role of Russia in the destabilization of Donbas, with key figures linked to Moscow. It also addresses the narrative of ethnic Russian persecution, contrasting it with the reality of language use in the region.

Takeaways

• 🌏 The principle of nationalism seeks to align political borders with ethnic and cultural ones, influencing the mapping of East European countries in the 19th and 20th centuries.
• 📈 Donbas was considered Ukrainian due to its majority Ukrainian population at the beginning of the 20th century and was claimed during revolutionary wars.
• 🏭 Donbas became a key industrial site in the Russian Empire due to its mining and metallurgical industries, attracting workers from various parts of the empire.
• 👥 The population of Donbas became ethnically mixed, with Ukrainians still forming the majority but not necessarily in urban areas, leading to a growing Russian cultural influence.
• 🏙️ Apart from Crimea, Donbas had a significant Russian ethnic presence, though they were not the majority, they were a substantial and influential group.
• 🏗️ Donbas experienced a dramatic economic decline as a classic Rust Belt region, with mines no longer producing coal at acceptable prices, leading to job losses and social issues.
• 🔥 The situation in Donbas was destabilized by the Russian Federation, exploiting economic and ethnocultural factors, with key figures in the region having ties to Moscow.
• 💬 Russia's justification for involvement in Donbas is framed as a defensive war to protect ethnically Russian people, though this narrative is contested.
• 🗣️ The Russian language is not persecuted in Ukraine, and in Donbas and Crimea, it is common to hear Russian spoken, contrary to claims of linguistic oppression.
• 🚫 The absence of mass mobilizations of Russians in Crimea and Donbas prior to Russian military involvement suggests that the narrative of self-defense may be an excuse for intervention.

Q & A

What is the principle of nationalism as mentioned in the script?

The principle of nationalism is about making political borders coincide with ethnic and cultural borders.

How was the region of Donbas considered in the early 20th century?

Donbas was considered to be Ukrainian, as the majority of its population were Ukrainians at the beginning of the 20th century.

What led to the ethnic and cultural mix in Donbas?

The industrialization and mining industry in Donbas attracted people from various parts of the Russian Empire, leading to a mixed population.

How did the city of Mariupol's population composition change?

In Mariupol, ethnic Russians constituted over 40% of the population, making them a significant group despite not being the majority.

What is the economic situation of Donbas described as in the script?

Donbas is described as a classic Rust Belt, with its mines no longer producing coal at an acceptable price, leading to job losses and economic decline.

How did the Russian Federation view the situation in Donbas?

The Russian Federation saw the situation as a defensive war against what they perceived as the Ukrainian government's actions against ethnically Russian people.

What role did economic and ethnocultural factors play in the conflict in Donbas?

Economic decline and ethnocultural tensions were key factors that made it easier for the Russian Federation to destabilize the situation in Donbas.

What was the claim about the Russian language in Ukraine?

The claim was that the Russian language was not persecuted in Ukraine, and it was common to hear Russian spoken in both Donbas and Crimea.

How did the presence of key figures with Moscow connections influence the situation in Donbas?

Key figures with connections to the Russian government and intelligence structures played significant roles in the early stages of the conflict in Donbas.

What is the argument made by the Russian Federation regarding the war in Donbas?

The Russian Federation argues that the war is a defensive measure to protect ethnically Russian people from actions by the Ukrainian government.

What is the reality of the Russian language's presence in Donbas and Crimea?

In reality, the Russian language is widely spoken and there is no significant persecution of Russian speakers in Donbas or Crimea.

Outlines

00:00

🗺️ Historical and Cultural Background of Donbas

The first paragraph discusses the historical and cultural significance of the Donbas region, highlighting the principle of nationalism and its impact on the political and ethnic borders of Eastern European countries in the 19th and 20th centuries. It explains how Donbas, initially Ukrainian-majority, became a key site for industrialization in the Russian Empire, attracting people from various parts of the empire, leading to a mixed population. The paragraph also touches on the economic challenges faced by Donbas as a Rust Belt region, the decline of its mining industry, and the social issues that arose from it. Additionally, it mentions the role of Russia in destabilizing the region and the presence of Russian figures in key positions during the conflict.

05:02

📣 Russian Influence and the Situation in Donbas

The second paragraph delves into the Russian government's perspective on the situation in Donbas, framing it as a defensive war to protect ethnically Russian people. It challenges this narrative by pointing out the lack of independent Russian mobilization in Crimea or Donbas without Russian presence or occupation. The paragraph also addresses the reality of the Russian language's status in Ukraine and Donbas, refuting the claim that Russian speakers are persecuted, as evidenced by the difficulty of finding Ukrainian language use outside of specific contexts.

Keywords

💡Nationalism

Nationalism is a political ideology that prioritizes the interests of a nation and its people, often seeking to align political borders with ethnic and cultural boundaries. In the video, it is mentioned as a principle that influenced the drawing of maps in Eastern Europe during the 19th and 20th centuries, particularly in relation to the region of Donbas.

💡Donbas

Donbas is a region in Eastern Ukraine that has been a focal point of conflict due to its historical and cultural significance. The video discusses how Donbas was considered Ukrainian at the beginning of the 20th century but later became a key site for industrialization within the Russian Empire, attracting a diverse population and leading to a complex ethnic composition.

💡Industrialization

Industrialization refers to the process of transforming a society from one primarily based on agriculture to one dominated by industry and manufacturing. In the context of the video, early industrialization in Donbas, particularly in mining and metallurgical industries, led to a population influx from various parts of the Russian Empire, contributing to the region's ethnic diversity.

💡Rust Belt

The Rust Belt is a term used to describe regions that were once industrial powerhouses but have since experienced economic decline, typically due to the decline of manufacturing industries. The video describes Donbas as a dramatic example of a Rust Belt region, with its mines no longer producing coal at acceptable prices, leading to job losses and social issues.

💡Ethnic Russians

Ethnic Russians are individuals who identify with the Russian ethnic group. In the video, it is noted that while ethnic Russians were not the majority in Donbas, they constituted a significant group, which has been a point of contention and a factor in the region's complex political landscape.

💡Economic Implosion

Economic implosion refers to a sudden and severe economic collapse. The video uses this term to describe the situation in Donbas, where the decline of the mining industry has led to widespread unemployment and economic hardship, making the region vulnerable to political instability.

💡Destabilization

Destabilization is the process of causing a system, organization, or region to become unstable. In the context of the video, it is suggested that the Russian Federation has taken advantage of the economic and social issues in Donbas to destabilize the region, as part of a broader geopolitical strategy.

💡Ethnocultural Factors

Ethnocultural factors refer to elements related to the culture and ethnicity of a population. The video discusses how these factors, along with economic issues, have contributed to the complex situation in Donbas, influencing the political and social dynamics of the region.

💡Linguistic Factors

Linguistic factors involve the use and influence of language within a society or region. In the video, it is mentioned that the Russian language is widely spoken in Donbas, which has been used as a pretext by Russia to justify its actions in the region, claiming to protect ethnically Russian and Russian-speaking populations.

💡Geopolitical Strategy

A geopolitical strategy refers to the actions and policies a country adopts to achieve its objectives in international relations. The video suggests that Russia's involvement in Donbas is part of a broader geopolitical strategy, using the region's economic and ethnic complexities to further its interests.

Highlights

Nationalism is the principle of aligning political borders with ethnic and cultural borders.

The map of many East European countries in the 19th and 20th centuries was drawn based on the principle of nationalism.

By the early 20th century, the region of Donbas was predominantly Ukrainian.

Donbas became a key site in the Russian Empire for early industrialization, particularly in mining and metallurgical industries.

The industrialization of Donbas attracted people from various parts of the Russian Empire, leading to a mixed population.

In cities like Mariupol, ethnic Russians constituted over 40% of the population.

Donbas is a classic example of a Rust Belt, experiencing economic decline and social issues similar to those in the United States.

The economic downturn in Donbas led to job losses and a reliance on government subsidies.

The Russian Federation exploited the economic and ethnocultural situation in Donbas to destabilize the region.

Key figures in the early stages of the conflict in Donbas had strong ties to the Russian government and intelligence structures.

The war in Donbas is portrayed by Russia as a defensive action to protect ethnically Russian people.

The Russian language is not persecuted in Ukraine, and it is widely spoken in Donbas and Crimea.

The claim of persecution of ethnic Russians or Russian speakers in Donbas is questioned due to the widespread use of the Russian language.

The situation in Donbas is multi-dimensional, involving economic, ethnocultural, and linguistic factors.

The Russian presence and occupation were crucial for the mobilization of ethnic Russians in Crimea and Donbas.

The lack of independent mobilization of ethnic Russians in Donbas before the arrival of Russian military units is noted.

The pretext of protecting ethnic Russians is seen as an excuse for Russian actions in Donbas.

The reality on the ground in Donbas and Crimea contradicts the narrative of persecution of Russian speakers.

Transcripts

maybe you can tell me about the region

of danas I mentioned that nationalism

and principle of nationalism is the

principle of uh making the political

borders to coincide with ethnic and

cultural

borders and that's that's how the maps

of of uh many East European countries

had been drawn in the 19th and 20th

Century on that on that principle donbas

where the

majority constituted uh by the beginning

of the 20th century were

ukrainians was considered to be

Ukrainian and was claimed in the middle

in in in the middle of this Revolution

and revolutionary Wars and Civil Wars by

uh Ukrainian

government but donbas became a site one

of the key sites in the Russian Empire

of early

industrialization when it's with its

mining industry it's metalogical

industry so what that meant was that

people from other parts of not Ukraine

but other parts of the Russian Empire

congregated there that's that's where

jobs were that's how kusov and his

family came came to donbas the family of

bnv overshoot a little bit they got to

the Industrial Enterprises in in in the

city of uh uh kamin near near nepr the

place the city that was called nepr

Petrov so those were Russian peasants

moving into the area in in uh looking

for for the for the

job and um by the the the the population

became quite mixed ukrainians still

constituted the majority of the

population but not necessarily in the

towns and in the cities and culturally

the place was becoming more and more

Russian as the result of that of that

mement so apart from the Crimea donbas

was the part of Ukraine where the ethnic

Russians were

the the the biggest group they were not

the majority but they were very very big

and significant group for example in the

city of marup that was all but destroyed

in the course of the last of the last

two years um the ethnic Russians

constituted over 40% of the population

right so that's not exactly part of

donbas but that gives you that that

gives you general

idea now the story of donbas uh and what

happened now is is multi-dimensional and

this ethnic composition is just one part

of the story another very important part

of the story is uh uh

economy and

uh dbas is a classical Rust Belt and we

know what happens with the cities that

were part of the first or second wave of

industrialization in the United States

and globally you know about social

problems that exist in those places so

dbas is probably the most dramatic and

tragic case of implosion of the Rust

Belt with the mines not anymore

producing the sort of the uh and at the

acceptable price the coal that they used

to produce is people look losing jobs

with the politicians looking for

subsidies as opposed to trying very

unpopular unpopular measures of uh

dealing something and and bring bringing

new money and new investment into the

region so all of that all of that become

part uh of the story that made made it

easy for uh Russia for the Russian

Federation to destabilize the

situation um we have interviews with is

Mr girkin who is saying that he was the

first who pulled the trigger and and

fired the shot in in that war he became

the Minister of Defense in the in the uh

donet People's Republic you look at the

Prime Minister he is another person with

uh uh Moscow residency

permit

um so you you see key figures in in

those positions at the start and the

beginning not being being Russians from

Ukraine but being being Russians from

Russia and Russians Russians from Moscow

closely connected to the to the

government structure and intelligence

structure and so on so that is that is

the start in the beginning but uh the

the way how how it exploded the way it

did was also a combination of of the

economic and ethnocultural and

linguistic factors so for Putin the war

in donbas and even in 2022 is a

defensive war against what the Ukrainian

government is doing against ethnically

Russian people dbas is that fair to say

how he describes it what what we see

this is certainly this is certainly the

argument right this is certainly the

argument and um a

pretext uh because what uh we see there

is that there would be no and and there

was no independent mobilization in

Crimea either in Crimea or in

donbas without Russian

presence uh without Russian occupation

the fact of the Crimea there would be no

and and there was no before uh

uh at least in the previous 5 to six

years any mass mobilizations of Russians

there was none of such mobilizations in

in donbas before before girin and other

people with mil

military with with um parts of military

units showed up there so it is it is a

it is an excuse you you've been to

Ukraine mhm you know that Russian

language is not uh persecuted in

Ukraine and um if youve not been to

donbas it would be diff or to the Crimea

it would be difficult to find one

single Ukrainian school not that they

didn't exist at all but it would take

quite an effort for you to find it or

sometimes even to hear Ukrainian

language outside either of the

institutions or or the or the uh farmers

market so um that that's that's the

reality that that's the reality that is

clear that is visible so uh imagine

under those conditions and context that

someone is is

persecuting ethnic Russians or Russian

speak

speakers um want to believe in something

like that one important precondition is

never to step step your foot in your

cray