Joe Rogan: Why Do Humans Value Social Status?
Summary
TLDRThe transcript delves into the human obsession with status, highlighting its extreme manifestations such as suicide and suicide bombings driven by social rewards and perceived heroism. It further explores the psychology behind individuals' susceptibility to cults, often stemming from a lack of identity and community, and how these groups offer a sense of certainty and belonging. The discussion also touches on the allure of certain belief systems, like Scientology, among successful individuals, emphasizing the innate human need for connection and status in a world where traditional tribal connections are increasingly elusive.
Takeaways
- 😔 Human beings often value status over their own lives, to the extent that a sudden drop in status or feelings of isolation can lead to self-harm or suicide.
- 💥 Suicide bombers are an extreme example of the lengths people will go to for social recognition and rewards, even if it means sacrificing their lives.
- 🤔 The belief systems that drive such actions can be deeply ingrained, with individuals genuinely believing in their righteousness, similar to the conviction seen in extremist groups.
- 👨👧 The manipulation of vulnerable individuals, including children, into acts of violence is a disturbing aspect of some belief systems, where the promise of heroism can be a powerful motivator.
- 🧠 The human mind is susceptible to adopting belief structures that provide a sense of identity and belonging, especially when individuals struggle to fit into mainstream society.
- 🏘️ Cults often appeal to those who have difficulty finding a place in conventional social structures, offering certainty and a clear set of rules to follow.
- 👟 Quirky and specific rules or rituals, such as wearing purple Nikes in certain cults, can serve to strengthen group identity and commitment.
- 📚 The memoir of a former cult member highlights the desire to follow the group's rules, not out of coercion but out of a genuine belief in their importance.
- 🎭 Actors, due to their profession of taking on different identities, may be particularly drawn to belief systems like Scientology, which can offer a sense of identity and community.
- 🤝 Religion, in general, provides a sense of connection and status, which are fundamental human needs, and can be seen as beneficial despite the potential for extreme beliefs.
- 🌐 In the modern world, where traditional communities are less common, there is an increased risk of identity stress and a longing for the sense of belonging and importance provided by smaller, close-knit groups.
Q & A
Why do human beings value status so much according to the speaker?
-The speaker suggests that humans value status highly to the extent that it can lead to self-harm or suicide in cases of a sudden drop in status or feelings of isolation.
What is the speaker's view on suicide bombers?
-The speaker sees suicide bombers as another manifestation of the extreme value placed on status, where the promise of social rewards or heroism drives individuals to such actions.
How does the speaker describe the psychological impact of cults on their members?
-The speaker implies that cults offer a sense of identity and belonging to individuals who struggle to fit into the status games of ordinary life, providing them with a tribe and certainty.
What does the speaker find 'insane' about the beliefs of certain groups?
-The speaker finds it 'insane' that people can sincerely believe in extreme ideologies to the point of sacrificing their children for what they perceive as heroic actions.
How does the speaker relate the idea of status to religious beliefs?
-The speaker suggests that religion provides a sense of connection and status, which are essential for human psychological health, and this is why people are drawn to it.
What is the speaker's opinion on the use of children in acts of violence by certain groups?
-The speaker finds the idea of using children in such acts to be evil and highlights the manipulative nature of those who can convince others to participate.
How does the speaker describe the psychological vulnerability that can lead to falling into cults?
-The speaker describes individuals as vulnerable to cults when they struggle to find a place in society, lacking a sense of identity and belonging.
What does the speaker find fascinating about cults?
-The speaker finds it fascinating how cults use bizarre language and specific terms that all members agree upon, creating a unique status game within the group.
Why does the speaker believe that religion can be beneficial despite its strictness?
-The speaker believes that religion can be beneficial because it provides a sense of community and importance, fulfilling basic human needs for connection and status.
What term does the speaker use to describe individuals who are hostile towards Scientology?
-The speaker mentions 'suppressive persons' as the term used by Scientologists to describe individuals who are hostile towards their beliefs.
How does the speaker connect the idea of identity and status to modern societal issues?
-The speaker connects the struggle for identity and status to modern societal issues by discussing the difficulty of feeling connected and valued in large populations and the rise of identity stress or anxiety.
Outlines
🚷 The Pursuit of Status and its Consequences
The speaker discusses the human tendency to value status highly, to the extent that it can lead to self-harm or suicide when one experiences a significant loss of status or feels isolated. They mention suicide bombers as an extreme example of how social rewards can influence behavior, highlighting the belief systems that drive individuals to such actions. The speaker also touches on the idea that people can become deeply invested in belief structures that may seem irrational to outsiders but are deeply held within their communities, including the influence of cults and the psychological vulnerability that can lead individuals to seek certainty and belonging in such groups.
🎭 The Role of Belief Systems in Hollywood and Beyond
This paragraph delves into the allure of belief systems, particularly Scientology, and how they can attract successful individuals in Hollywood. The speaker reflects on the idea that actors, due to their profession of embodying different characters, might be more susceptible to such belief systems. They also share personal anecdotes about growing up in a strict Catholic household and how religion can provide a sense of community and importance. The discussion extends to the broader context of modern society, where the struggle to maintain a sense of connection and status can lead to identity stress and the appeal of strict belief systems that offer certainty and a clear social hierarchy.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Status
💡Psychological Resources
💡Suicide Bombers
💡Social Rewards
💡Cults
💡Identity
💡Belief Structures
💡Connection
💡Religion
💡Identity Anxiety
💡Scientology
Highlights
Human beings value status over their lives, with status being a significant factor in self-harm and suicide.
Suicide bombers are seen as a manifestation of the extreme value placed on social rewards and status.
The psychological impact of a sudden drop in status or feelings of isolation can lead to self-harm.
Cults and extremist groups offer a sense of belonging and certainty to those struggling with identity and status in society.
People can become deeply invested in belief systems that may seem irrational or 'crazy' to outsiders.
The idea of talking children into acts of violence for perceived social rewards is both wild and evil.
Individuals in extremist groups often believe in their actions with sincerity, not out of calculation.
Vulnerability to cults is often linked to a lack of identity and a struggle to fit into societal status games.
Cults provide absolute certainty and a strict status game that some find appealing.
The use of bizarre language and agreed-upon terms within cults signifies a strong group identity.
Scientology's appeal in Hollywood and its strict rules for members were discussed.
Actors' susceptibility to Scientology may be due to their transient identities and the need for a stable belief system.
Successful individuals within cults, like Tom Cruise, demonstrate the allure of such belief systems.
Religion and cults fulfill a human need for connection and status, which are essential for psychological health.
The struggle to feel connected and valued in modern society contributes to identity stress and anxiety.
Anecdotes from a memoir of a cult member highlight the desire for strict rules and the perceived benefits of belonging.
The need for connection and status is a fundamental human requirement, often met through religious or cult communities.
Transcripts
human beings value status over their
lives yeah I mean that's how much we
value status we we're the only animal
that kills oursel which is just a weird
thing in itself that an animal would
voluntarily end its own life and very
often the reason that people will kill
themselves is because it's a sudden drop
in status or they feel completely
isolated and alone so so so they're
lacking in those essential kind of
Psychological Resources to such an
extent that they you know end their own
lives and that's how much we value these
things and suicide bombers are another
manifestation of that like like if
you're going to consider me a hero and
if Muhammad is going to consider me a
hero strap me up brother you know that
that's how much that that's how crazy we
become about these these social rewards
God that is such an insane belief it's
so insane and when the the most evil
thing is when you hear about them
talking kids into doing it
yeah you know a young child you know
you're getting a I mean what is the
youngest suicide bomber they've ever
used I don't know just the idea that you
can buy into it so much that you're
willing to let your children go do
that yeah but I it's wild
it's it's evil if you think it's this
kind of
calculating um uh kind of mathematical
algorithm of Advantage but but but they
sincerely believe it they really believe
it's true right I mean you know I've
been as a when I was North I was a
journalist I've been meeting kind of
crazy people including Nazis um as part
of my journalistic career and that's one
of the things that always strikes me is
that they they really believe it this
crazy stuff so so it's not evil in the
sense that um they doing anything
calculating by talking their children
into being suicide bombers they think
they're doing something heroic they
think they're doing something amazing as
did the Nazis as as did the Communists
as yeah as do the KKK people they can
fall into belief structures and they
they don't necessarily have to make
sense but if they find enough supportive
people around them that also believe
that then it becomes part of their tribe
identity yeah and it can get it could be
really stupid be really stupid we're
[ __ ] way more vulnerable than we like
to believe that's one of the things that
I was saying like when I watched those
cult documentaries part of me is like
thank God I didn't run into those people
thank God yeah they would have got me
and and when they look at the psychology
of people that are vulnerable to falling
into Cults it's very often people that
have struggle to fit into the status
games of ordinary life so they got the
family hasn't worked the job hasn't
worked hobbi haven't worked so they've
got no identity they've got no tribe so
they're really vulnerable to these Cults
which because what Cults offer is
absolute certainty yeah if you cook your
scrambled eggs this way if you uh only
put two inches of water in your bath
you're going to you know the um the UFOs
will come down and they're going to take
you to the level above that's what they
were offering T the level wear the Nikes
though remember you have to wear the
purple Nikes but yeah that's right and
there's this crazy Memoir of one with
one of one of the guys who was in this
group who he cut he didn't he didn't cut
his own balls off he left before the
ball cutting but he was but he was
jealous like like he wanted to have his
balls cut and there was there was only
one person that could have it done at
the beginning and they flipped a coin
and he was really annoyed that he lost
the coin flip oh my God but what was
interesting about his Memoir was he said
that people talk about brainwashing
Cults and people talk people talk about
how we were forced to follow these rules
but we wanted to follow the rules like
not following the rules would be like
being a NASA astronaut and just not
caring about how the Space Shell works
you know so so so so so they're not they
don't consider themselves brainwashed
they consider themselves well they're
just in a status game like like any
other status game it's just a very very
strict one right well that's why you
know one of the fascinating things about
some Cults is that they use very bizarre
language and that they all agree to it
like specific terms that they say like
doesn't Scientologist they'll call
people they have like an abbreviation
for someone who's like a hostile
person what is it that they do because I
remember someone was some was explaining
to me someone who left the church was
explaining to me how like if someone
would be hostile you have like a very
specific way you describe them and that
they all do it in the group and it's
like suppressive persons yeah
suppressive persons yes you're a
suppressive person potential trouble
source
dude I ordered dianic in like
1994 I had just moved to LA and I
thought it was a self-help book I was
like all right yeah [ __ ] look at your
brain's going to explode you're going to
get your [ __ ] together look at all these
people that are succeeding on diic you
know it's 26 or whatever it was so I
ordered this book and they never stopped
sending me things I mean they [ __ ]
never stopped sending me was there ever
a point when you thought hang on a
minute this is quite interest though all
right no no once I realized it was
Scientology I was like oh Dianetics is
Scientology yeah I was like okay but
then part of me was like damn a lot of
these Scientologist are doing really
well in Hollywood maybe that's a good
culture join maybe if they just let me
be me because it seems like that was
part of it there was a big Allure over
how many successful people were
following that religion I mean some of
the most successful actors Tom Cruz is
one of the most successful actors of all
time and he's literally the poster boy
for that yeah that's right I I it's
somebody was saying to me the other day
that they thought that actors were
particularly susceptible to Scientology
because they've got this weird they
don't really have an identity actors
they were always sort of slipping into
everybody different people's identities
I thought that was interesting
especially if
you're you probably lose who the [ __ ]
you are who am I am I Rocky am I the
mission impossible guy yeah well when
they're walking around everybody treats
them that way like I'm sure they treat
Stallone like he's Rocky and yeah you
got to give respect to Tom Cruz though
because Tom Cruz is like 60 years old
and he still does his own stunts
including jumping a motorcycle off a
cliff yeah that's how much he believes
in this stuff yeah but but that's but
that's why these these groups are kind
of functional as well it's like I kind
of have a weird kind of sympathy like I
grew up in a very strict Catholic
household with very strict Catholic
parents and I was very I hated it I was
very rebellious as a teenager and I
guess in my 20s and 30s I was very very
atheist and you know hated religion um
but but then I kind of did a lot of This
research and and when once you accept
that what humans need to be healthy
psychologically and physically is
connection and status you see that that
that's actually what religion provides
people that that's what religion
provides my parents is that they
connected into community and they feel
important they feel they're good
Catholics because my dad conducts the
choir and you know this that and the
other and so that that that's invaluable
that's what humans need to survive and
in our you know in the in in the current
world in the
huge uh populations in which we live
it's very hard to feel securely
connected I mean as you said moment AG
the tribes in which we evolve were very
small like 30 to 50 people so it was
quite easy to feel securely connected it
was quite easy in that environment to
feel important like valued by other
people I mean
probably it was not rare in the tribe to
feel in invaluable like you're needed
because everybody was needed there
wasn't many people around to find the
tubers and catch the rabbits or whatever
um but in this day and age in these huge
groups in which we belong to it's it's
much harder to feel relative status
because you're competing with millions
of people especially online so and I
think that's a source of a huge amount
of sort mid misery in the modern world a
stress sort of an I call it identity
anxiety identity stress we we we we we
are we feel really unsatisfied with the
amount of connection and status
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