Nigeria Billionaire Dangote on Fuel Subsidy, Oil Prices, Football

Summary

In this interview, the CEO of a Nigerian oil company discusses the challenges and triumphs of opening a new refinery, a significant milestone for Nigeria which has been importing petroleum products for 35 years despite being an oil-producing nation. He details the arduous journey from conception to completion, including battles with government subsidies, relocation issues, and the necessity of becoming their own EPC contractor. The refinery's impact on Nigeria's economy is highlighted, with expectations to stabilize the naira and reduce fuel subsidies. The CEO also shares his views on the oil industry's powerful players, the potential for Nigerian petroleum product exports, and his personal regret of not purchasing Arsenal Football Club when he had the chance, prioritizing his business over sports investment.

Takeaways

• ?Í🏿 The interviewee expresses immense satisfaction with the successful opening of the refinery, highlighting it as a significant personal and organizational achievement, especially considering the initial skepticism from others.
• 📝 Nigeria, being an oil-producing country, has paradoxically been importing petroleum products for the last 35 years, a situation the interviewee finds nonsensical and is now rectified with the new refinery.
• 📱 Despite the immense challenges faced, including regulatory hurdles and logistical issues, the project was successfully completed, demonstrating resilience and determination.
• 💵 Subsidies on petroleum products are identified as a sensitive issue, with the interviewee suggesting that the refinery will help in managing real consumption and potentially reduce government overspending.
• 💲 The refinery is poised to help Nigeria become self-sufficient in petroleum products, which could also lead to becoming a significant exporter in Africa, alongside Algeria and Libya.
• 💵 The interviewee discusses the importance of the refinery for Nigeria’s economy, including the potential to stabilize the local currency, the Naira, by reducing foreign exchange demand.
• 💵 There's an agreement with the Nigerian government for a robust arrangement ensuring energy security and a predictable supply of crude oil to the refinery.
• 💲 The refinery is versatile, producing not only gasoline, diesel, and aviation fuel but also polypropylene and other petrochemicals, aiming for a significant portion of these to be exported.
• 💵 The interviewee confirms that the removal of subsidies is dependent on the government's decision and not on the operations of the refinery, emphasizing the refinery’s viability regardless.
• 💵 There was a shift in the agreement with NNPC, reducing their stake in the refinery from 20% to 7.2%, which the interviewee suggests was a mistake on NNPC's part.
• 💵 The interviewee, a prominent Arsenal fan, discloses that due to the financial commitment required for the refinery, purchasing the football club is no longer a feasible endeavor, a decision he says was necessary despite his passion for the team.

Q & A

What milestone does the speaker refer to in the interview?

The speaker refers to the successful opening of a refinery as a significant milestone, especially considering Nigeria's history of importing petroleum products for the past 35 years.

What challenges did the speaker face during the refinery project?

The speaker faced numerous challenges, including government relations, land acquisition issues, and logistical difficulties in building the refinery, which delayed the project significantly.

How does the speaker feel about the success of the refinery?

The speaker expresses great satisfaction and pride in the achievement, noting that it was a significant accomplishment that many doubted would succeed.

What is the speaker's view on government subsidies?

The speaker believes that removing subsidies is necessary for the viability of the refinery and the economy, as subsidies lead to unsustainable financial burdens on the government.

How does the refinery aim to address issues of fuel consumption in Nigeria?

The refinery will help provide accurate data on fuel consumption in Nigeria, as it will produce and track the gasoline, allowing the government to better understand and manage consumption.

What agreement has been reached with the Nigerian government regarding crude oil?

The agreement allows the refinery to purchase crude oil in Nigerian naira, which is expected to stabilize the currency and reduce the pressure on foreign exchange.

What are the future plans for the refinery and the company?

The company plans to expand its production capabilities, including increasing the output of polypropylene and polyethylene, while also exploring opportunities in upstream oil production.

What is the speaker's opinion on the competition from larger oil companies?

The speaker acknowledges that larger oil companies may sell fuel at lower prices due to their resources, but believes that the refinery's unique position and local currency transactions will provide a competitive edge.

What legacy does the speaker hope to leave with the refinery project?

The speaker hopes to establish Nigeria as self-sufficient in petroleum products and to eliminate the country's dependency on imports, marking a significant shift in the nation's oil industry.

Does the speaker regret not buying Arsenal Football Club?

The speaker expresses some regret about not buying Arsenal when it was more affordable but emphasizes that completing the refinery project was a higher priority.

Outlines

00:00

🏭 Launch of Nigeria's Refinery

The speaker expresses pride in the successful launch of Nigeria's refinery, which was doubted by many. They highlight the personal and organizational satisfaction achieved from this accomplishment, especially considering Nigeria's history of importing petroleum products despite being an oil-producing country. The speaker also candidly shares the immense challenges faced during the project's execution, including regulatory hurdles and the need to relocate the refinery. They emphasize the importance of the project's completion for Nigeria's energy security and the economic benefits it will bring, such as reducing the need for subsidies and enabling the country to track and account for fuel consumption more accurately.

05:07

💡 Addressing Subsidies and Government Relations

The conversation shifts to discuss the sensitive issue of fuel subsidies in Nigeria. The speaker argues that subsidies are unsustainable and that the refinery will help the government by providing accurate fuel consumption data, thus aiding in subsidy removal. They mention the government's initiative to sell crude to the refinery in local currency, the Naira, to stabilize the currency and reduce foreign exchange pressure. The speaker also addresses the business strategy of their company, emphasizing the need for profitability and the decision-making process regarding whether to sell petroleum products locally or export them. The potential for Nigeria to become a significant exporter of petroleum products in Africa is also highlighted.

10:08

🛑 Overcoming Obstacles in the Oil Industry

The speaker delves into the challenges faced in the oil industry, likening the industry's powerful players to a cartel. They discuss the strategic decision-making involved in pricing and the impact of subsidies on the market. The narrative continues with the speaker's confidence in their company's ability to compete and strike deals, even with the presence of larger industry players. They also touch on the versatility of their refinery, which produces not only fuel but also petrochemicals like polypropylene, and the plans to expand into other downstream sectors, such as urea and polyethylene production.

15:12

📈 Business Strategy and Investment Directions

The speaker outlines their company's business strategy, focusing on downstream investments rather than upstream oil production. They discuss plans to expand their production of polypropylene and urea, as well as the potential for producing other petroleum-based products like benzene. The conversation reveals a shift in focus towards creating a circular economy within Nigeria, with all transactions to be conducted in local currency. The speaker also addresses the reduced stake offered to the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation (NNPC) in the refinery project, explaining the negotiations and agreements that led to the current ownership structure.

20:16

🏢 Corporate Governance and Personal Aspirations

The speaker discusses the incident of their offices being raided and the company's commitment to transparency and compliance. They emphasize their status as a significant taxpayer and their contributions to the Nigerian economy. The conversation also touches on the company's investments in the fertilizer industry and plans to double production capacity. Personal aspirations are also revealed, as the speaker shares their passion for Arsenal Football Club and their past consideration of purchasing the club, although they ultimately decided against it due to the need to focus on completing the refinery project.

25:22

🔄 Reflections on the Refinery Project

In the final paragraph, the speaker reflects on the challenges and achievements of the refinery project. They acknowledge the numerous difficulties faced but also the success in overcoming them. The speaker expresses that, despite the opportunity to undertake such a project again, they would not choose to do so due to its scale and complexity. The conversation concludes with a reaffirmation of their commitment to the project and a look forward to future endeavors.

Keywords

💡Refinery

A refinery is a type of industrial plant where crude oil is processed and transformed into useful products such as gasoline, diesel, and aviation fuel. In the context of the video, the refinery represents a significant milestone for Nigeria, moving from an importer to a potential exporter of petroleum products. The interviewee discusses the challenges and achievements related to building and operating this refinery.

💡Subsidies

Subsidies are financial aid granted by a government to keep the price of a commodity or service low. In the script, the discussion revolves around the Nigerian government's subsidies on petroleum products, which the interviewee suggests are unsustainable and may need to be removed to stabilize the economy and the local currency, the naira.

💡EPC Contractor

EPC stands for Engineering, Procurement, and Construction, referring to a company that handles all these aspects of a project. The interviewee mentions becoming an EPC contractor for the refinery project, indicating they took on the responsibility for designing, acquiring, and constructing the refinery, which is unusual for a company not typically in the construction business.

💡Crude Oil

Crude oil is a raw material that is refined to produce usable oil products. The script mentions securing crude oil as a challenge for the refinery operation. Crude oil is a critical input for the refinery and its availability and price significantly impact the refinery's economics.

💡Naira

The naira is the official currency of Nigeria. The interview discusses the impact of the refinery on the naira's stability, particularly in relation to foreign exchange and the government's subsidy policy. The refinery's operations are designed to reduce pressure on the naira by conducting transactions within Nigeria.

💡Petroleum Products

Petroleum products refer to commodities derived from crude oil, such as gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel. The script highlights Nigeria's goal to become self-sufficient in petroleum products, ending a 35-year history of imports and potentially becoming an exporter.

💡Regulatory Challenges

Regulatory challenges refer to the difficulties faced in complying with government regulations or obtaining necessary permissions. The interviewee mentions dealing with various government tiers and community issues, which delayed the refinery project for several years.

💡Foreign Exchange

Foreign exchange involves the conversion of one currency to another. The script discusses how the refinery's operations will reduce Nigeria's foreign exchange spending on petroleum product imports, which is a significant economic consideration for the country.

💡Self-sufficiency

Self-sufficiency means being able to supply one's own needs without external assistance. The interviewee speaks about Nigeria's goal to achieve self-sufficiency in petroleum products, which would be a significant shift from its historical reliance on imports.

💡Polypropylene

Polypropylene is a petroleum-based plastic used in various products. The interviewee mentions plans to expand their production of polypropylene, indicating diversification from just fuel products into petrochemicals, which have a wide range of industrial uses.

💡Urea

Urea is a chemical compound commonly used in fertilizers. The script mentions the interviewee's plans to increase urea production, which is another example of downstream diversification in the petroleum industry, contributing to agricultural productivity.

Highlights

The refinery opening is a milestone achievement, especially considering 90% of the world didn't believe it would be completed.

The refinery is significant for Nigeria, which has been importing petroleum products despite being an oil-producing country for the last 35 years.

The founder expresses no regrets, despite the immense difficulty of the project, which he refers to as a 'monster month'.

The project faced numerous challenges, including government issues and community problems, which delayed the start by five years.

The refinery had to become its own EPC contractor due to the unprecedented scale and complexity of the project.

The refinery is expected to help the Nigerian government eliminate fuel subsidies by providing a clearer picture of actual fuel consumption.

The refinery will potentially make Nigeria one of the largest petroleum product exporters in Africa.

The founder discusses the sensitive issue of fuel subsidies and the government's efforts to eliminate them.

The refinery's operation could save the Nigerian government a significant amount of money by reducing the need for subsidies.

The founder explains the agreement with the Nigerian government to sell crude in naira and the benefits it brings to both parties.

The refinery is designed to produce a high percentage of high-value products, making it highly profitable.

The founder discusses the potential for the refinery to reduce the cost of having ships floating in the port, saving over $1,000,000,000 in demurrage alone.

The founder clarifies that there was no disagreement with NNPC over the pricing of gasoline, and explains the pricing structure.

The refinery is versatile and produces not only gasoline, diesel, and aviation fuel, but also petrochemicals like polypropylene.

The founder shares his company's plans to invest more in the downstream sector, including expanding polypropylene and urea production.

The founder confirms that he no longer intends to buy Arsenal Football Club, choosing instead to focus on his business projects.

The founder reflects on the challenges of building the refinery, stating he would not undertake such a large project again.

Transcripts

Don't go to. Thank you so much for speaking to

Bloomberg. You have the refinery.

It's opened. How does it feel?

It feels like a milestone from the outside.

How does it feel for you? I think it feels really great.

It is really a great achievement is something that 90% of the entire world

did not really give us a chance. Nobody really believe we can pull it

off, but we did. And you know, it is a great satisfaction

to me personally as a person and also to the organization.

So I think we have done very, very well and quite a lot of things when you look

at where we're coming from.

You know, Nigeria being an oil producing country and we've been importing

petroleum products for the last 35 years, just doesn't make sense.

I mean, from the outside, it looks quite difficult.

Any regrets? I think no regret.

I would have said there is maybe a bit of regret if we hadn't succeeded in

delivering. But, you know, to tell you the truth, it

was a very, very it was a monster month. And I keep telling people if I knew how

difficult it was to put in this kind of, you know,

edifice, this kind of refinery, I wouldn't have sold it at all.

But, you know, so but by the time we realised that it was a very difficult

thing, we had already started. So we had no choice than to deliver.

But what's the hardest bit? So you have a relationship with the

government there? Getting rid of subsidies.

You have to find the crude, you refine it, you sell it back.

I think that is not really only the hardest well, the hardest part, Francine

is delivering the project on this one. We never, ever expected the kind of

challenges that we face. You know, we launched the project in

2013 and then we had a lot of problems with the

said government. You know, it's not the federal

government. You know, of course we have three tiers

of government. So where we bought a land, you know, it

was in a state not far away from Lagos and the guy drilled us for almost about

three and a half years, and we had to now move the refinery to Lagos.

We go to Lagos, we have community issues.

So it took us really five years to start.

This buttoning up to what already take in loss of about 2.4 billion to set and

interest was counted but then still went ahead.

Then again, the challenges of building that kind of, you know, project, we

realized that, you know, we have to build our own fort, will build a port of

gold in the port. We realized that nobody could supply

cranes equipment. So we had to take something that people

don't know or they don't realize what we did.

Now, we now made ourselves as the EPC contractor, which is engineering,

procurement and construction. So we did it on our own because we have

never, ever handled this kind of this kind of project, a handle by Saipem, by

Bechtel. You know, the big guys.

But we took that challenge and that is why people believe that, no, it will

never work. So the government wants to get rid of

subsidies. Will your refinery help with that?

Well, the government you know, subsidy is a very sensitive issue.

If, you know, I believe the problem is not only the subsidy, it is problem that

once you are subsidizing something, then people will be brought in the numbers

and government will end up paying what they are not supposed to be paying.

But this refinery will bring quite a lot of issues up there.

You know, it will show the real consumption of Nigeria because, you

know, nobody can tell you. Some people say 60 million liters of

gasoline, but some say you it's less. But right now, if you look at it, but as

producing, okay, everything can be counted, right?

So everything can be accounted for. Most of the trucks or ships that will

come and not from us are going to actually, you know, put a tracker on

them to be sure they are going to take the oil within Nigeria.

And that, I think, can help the government to save quite a lot of money.

So do you think it's the right time to get rid of the subsidies?

I think it is, you know, because all countries have actually gotten rid of

subsidies. Let me give you an example.

Saudi Arabia used to give what Saudis, the citizens believe that, look, oil is

on God given gift. So the government should have charges

for it. So government will sell it at a very low

price. But today, as we speak.

Gasoline is about 40% cheaper in India, in Saudi Arabia.

Which I think doesn't make sense. That is what.

Number two, the price of gasoline is about 60% of the price of a neighboring

countries where very porous borders. So it is not sustainable.

You know, I mean, the amount of subsidies that were paid.

Government cannot afford those subsidies.

Do you need the government to take away the subsidies for your refinery to be

viable? Well, you see, we have a choice of

either one. We produce, we export and one we

produce. We sell locally.

But we're a very, very private company. And yes, it's true.

We have to make a profit. We build something worth $20 billion.

So definitely we have to make money. The removal of subsidy is totally

dependent on the government, not on us. We cannot change, you know, price.

But I think, you know, the government will have to, you know, give up

something for something. You know, so I think at the end of the

day, the subsidy will have to go. But what we have done now, we know with

the government, which I think I must really thank the president of Nigeria,

President Bola Tinubu, you know, very creative idea that, okay, you know what?

We will sell you the crude in naira.

You also sell in naira. So now we can out

for the exchange rate is going to be price

normal price in you know if crude is $80.

You know Brent you know we will pay that price will use an agreed exchange rate

and then we will also sell in the domestic market.

What that will do is is going to remove 40% pressure on the naira.

So because you see the petroleum products consume about 40% of foreign

exchange. So, you know, it is like you have 40% of

demand being taken out. So that can actually stabilize the

naira. That's one.

Number two, the government will now know it means they won't subsidize.

They will know what is the real consumption, because right now nobody

can tell you what to do. It's all guesswork.

You know, so that can help in terms of stabilizing the market.

That can also help in terms of removing queues because we have a lot of queues

and these queues are not there today. They've been on and off since 1972 for

the last 52 years. But so what does it mean in dealing with

now and what does it mean for your group?

Is it a benefit or actually just gives the government something that they want?

I think it really is to give the government something that they want.

It's a win win, you see, because the issue that, yes, we're an endurance and

we have to also do something to show that, yes, we do care.

And part of caring is to now agree with the government that, okay, fine, let's

go ahead and do this then, because it can be very awkward for somebody like me

or a group to come and say that we want to deal in, you know, dollars.

I think it's a win win and it would benefit the country quite a lot.

The whole thing is actually, okay, fine, what do we leave as a legacy?

And I think doing this, but even making sure that, yes, we've taken Nigeria out

of an oil I mean, petroleum products import country for the first time in the

history of Nigeria is a great milestone, which, you know, I'm very, very proud

about. So how's the relationship with the

government? I know there's there's a number of

negotiations, including the price of gasoline.

What kind of offering have you made? I think we have quite a good

relationship, you know, to the, you know, the government and, you know,

where the president actually put the minister of finance and also myself to

coordinate, you know, the economy and then the

special adviser revenue, you know, a very smart guy, Zach

Adedeji, you know, and they are working out something which I think it would be

a win win between us and the APC if NNPC is that is the Nigerian National

Petroleum Corporation. If the refineries if this had to work,

then Nigeria would be one of the biggest exporters of petroleum products in

Africa. You know, in Africa, only two countries

are self-sufficient, which is Algeria and Libya, but all other countries are

importers of petroleum products. So.

So what kind of agreement are you expecting actually within?

I think the kind of agreement that was kicked in is to have a very robust

agreement. Well, first of all, we have energy

security where they won't be for the crude they would give us.

Crude already have agreed that, for example, in October

they will give us 12 million barrels, which is averagely about 390,000 barrels

a day, which will fine. We'll sell both gasoline, diesel and

aviation fuel and if this any excess will export.

But, you know, the refinery is also versatile where we are producing a lot

of things. It's not only these three things that I

mentioned. We are also into polypropylene, you

know, which is petrochemical, which 80% of it is also to be exported by 20% is

what the demand is in Nigeria, which will also sell to help a lot of

plastic industries. So but with the government, I think the

agreement will be the occupying. When we take that in, we will now sell

to everybody. So it means that 50% or 60% of petrol

stations that have not been working or they've been out of work, everybody will

not be at work. It will reduce the cost of having ships

floating all over Lumi you know, I mean paying demurrage, demurrage alone, we're

going to save over $1,000,000,000. And I mean, there seems to be

disagreements on how you price your gasoline with NNPC.

Have you settled on a price? Can you give us more clarity on what's

going on? Well, what is going on there was it

wasn't really a disagreement. Passi

NNPC bought from us this particular one on the 15th of September at the

International Price, which they also bought about 800 over

800,000 metric tonnes of gasoline imported.

So the one that they bought from us actually is cheaper than doing the

import. And so when we announce a price,

the guy I don't know whether he was authorized, but it wasn't really the

real price. What they have announced is most likely

that is what it. Close them, including four players,

including whatever you know, which they have never added profit to their cost.

And then the other one is one that they imported.

But the people don't know how much they spent in terms of the input, but their

own importation, one is almost nil, may be about 15 20% more expensive than

ours. You know, so what this was to do is to

sell at a basket price, or if they want to move subsidy, they can announce that

they will remove subsidy, which is okay, anybody, you know, logistics.

But you're not worried that some of the oil majors, because of their vast

resources, can sell for cheaper? Well, yes,

most likely. You know, because in business is the you

know, I've said this in my interview before where I said that I never knew

that the oil industry. Mafia are stronger than the drug cartel.

Is a big cartel. You know, I will say this anyway.

The issue that you are right because you fight, you know, to make sure that is in

fact it doesn't work, will keep selling cheaper.

But right now they won't be able to sell cheaper because they will not be able to

take local currency. We will take a look at currency.

We have the refining capacity not only to satisfy and you have refining

capacity that is almost twice the condition of Nigeria, but you're also

confident that you can strike a deal with the authorities.

No, we will definitely strike a deal. The president has announced the soon the

we is going to start 1st of October. You know, so I think between now and the

next couple of days, they will come out. With a very, very clean agreement.

It's a it's a pretty big accusation that you say, you know, they're run like a

cartel and they could price me out. What's what's your ideal scenario?

So how much of the crude would you refine and sell domestically?

Like, if you have a blueprint of the kind of agreement that works for you,

for NNPC and for the government, what does it look like, what that agreement

will look like? Because we're going to now have a

discussion with the government where we will have doing for the domestic market

which government will not give anybody dollar to buy.

So people will know we won't have like a circular economy in the sense that it

will all the transactions will remain within Nigeria.

You know, bankers in letters of credit, everything will be in naira.

But the one that we're going to export, we also have our own plans to make sure

that, yes, we don't fall in the hands of some of these checks.

You know, we have our own plans and we are also plan as they are planning.

We're also planning our own because we have the plans to survive and I'm sure

we'll do so. Does refining Nigerian crude actually

shorten the yields for the refinery? No, it isn't shift in the world.

It gives it's a very good yield. But, you know, you have to mix different

Nigerian one, the WTI, Brazilian, you know, so a couple of

these and we have to do that. It depends on what you call the LP

model. So if we do that, then we will know

which one will have in terms of yield. But, you know, our refinery also is

designed to produce 93% of high valued thing, you know, from polypropylene

gasoline, diesel aviation fuel, very small enough to not only have about

36,000 tonnes and then the raw material carbon black,

but the no residue which is the cheapest product, is less than 7%.

So that makes our refinery, you know, to be very profitable, you know, you know,

refinery. But, you know, this is something that

you build for a long time. You know, it's not something that you

use. If it's a question about making when you

look at it in the last seven years, if we as a group have taken this money, we

invested and invested in the stocks of Microsoft, in

Tesla, in, you know, in Google, I mean, our would do this.

We would have been over one years of $1,000,000,000.

But you're confident you can make this work.

What are you going to invest more in the sector?

Why not go upstream? We we you know.

Well, upstream, you know, in also upstream, not big.

We have two oil blocks, which we have and were such in production this

October. But we want to look at more of the

downstream. You know, because in oil oil you can

produce over 6800 items. You know, so now we're doing

polypropylene. We're going to double our size in

polypropylene. We're going to also do about 500,000

tonnes of polyethylene. And then, you know, we're also doing on

the other side a different company, which is also owned by us.

We're doing about 3 million tonnes of urea.

So we're also double that. So there is

love benzene, which is raw material for making detergent.

Nobody produces that in Africa. So these are the smaller projects which

we want to do and we want to really try and add to this in the next one obvious.

So you would invest in actually getting the oil out of the ground?

Well, I think well, I don't want to put too much money there.

I already have one, if any. As it comes around, you know, we can

pick it. But is it the intention of our group to

make sure that we produce our own raw material when we would do that?

We will not target to go and produce three 400,000 barrels per day.

We don't have that plan as we speak today.

I think there was confusion. The NNPC was meant to take 20% of the

refinery. It's now 7%.

Yes. What happened?

What happened? I think we agree with them.

We give them a good deal. Well, we said fine.

We structured an agreement. The first agreement was that they're

going to pay us $1,000,000,000. The deal was about 2.79 billion.

And then the balance of the money, $1 billion, which they paid us about a

year and a half ago. And then the balance of the money was

split into two. One portion is that ever accrued the

supply to us 300,000 barrels. Then we'll deduct $2.

Yeah. And then up to the time they finish

filling that in, no one said, the other one said will come out of their own

profit. So what an opted out the No, no no the

is a little bit confused. I mean it's a bit of the confusion.

They want this agreement to be changed where they

want to be cash. They don't want that.

We always say, okay, fine, we signed the agreement, you know.

You know, cancelling the other one. The new agreement that we signed was for

them to pay us up to one year. No interest and nothing up to one year

do pay as well as a 1.8 billion. The month for them to pay was June and

June. They came back to us and said, No,

they've changed their minds. They want to remain at 7.2%.

So we can fighting. So we we left it and

we all now the rest of the shares, they own 7.2% and we own the balance of the

shares and that's what it is. But I think they made a big mistake.

But it'll stay that way. There's no negotiation or talks

in the agreement. That means the finished dead completed

is 7.2%. That's why we are right now.

And what did the offices actually get raided in January?

Well, the the issue is there was nothing, you know, I mean, they came to

us and say, okay, fine, they are looking for some documents.

I say, what are these you are bidding in terms of, you know, for the exchange.

And so here we have this and but yeah, example 15 years documents when we have

them. So we sent the people out there to go

and take the documents. They don't go back.

We go to come to our office, you know, and the, the before we knew it, you

know, the already in office, the office really was no, really.

They visited the office and they didn't talk to anybody.

They didn't know to arrest anybody. They just came and, you know, and left

just to register an embarrassment. And that's all by law, the way we run

our own organisation. And that is why when you look at it,

France in were the highest tax paying. Cooperation.

And then, you know, a company paid in 2023 more taxes than the entire banking

industry. And that is why, you know, so whatever

we do, because we know that, yes, we're of there anybody where there is a new

government or whatever happens, we're the first port of call.

So that's why our own behavior has to be 100% clear.

And that's settled. You don't expect I mean, that's what in

January, that's all you know. And if any time somebody wants to

exercise would be fine. What about your own tactics?

What about this fire? We don't have any issue.

You know, people really don't understand also what we owe to the economy.

But in a very short period of time, people do understand our own

contributions to the economy, like fertilizer plant is only, what, 50% of

capacity? It was 50% capacity.

Well, in the last about in the last one month or so, we

have enough gas. So we have started now to 85%.

You know, I hope it will continue. But, you know, there is also the gas,

which is the coal. It all B3 obviously is a gas pipeline

which is bringing gas from the east to the west, because in the west they have

industries. So that's where the demand is.

In the east, the gas is there, but no demand.

If they have that which they promised that they're going to finish in October,

then we'll have more gas than we need it.

You know, So I think that issue is being resolved and that is

why we're also trying to invest more by Putin of another plant to double our

fertilizer plant from 3 million to 6 million tons.

So the refinery is built. I know you're the biggest arsenal, one

of the biggest Arsenal fans. I know.

And you do you still want to buy the club

for as that time has passed? The last time when we had this

interview, I told you that, yes, as soon as I finish with the refinery, I'm going

to try and buy Arsenal. But the issue is that, you know, it was

not going to be close to the old in the arsenal is doing extremely well.

That time, Arsenal wasn't doing well. I think, you know, I don't have that

kind of excess liquidity to go and buy a club for $4 billion, so to speak, and,

you know, use it as a promotional something, you know, rather do something

for the money. What I will do, I'll continue to be

biggest fan of Arsenal. I watch the, you know, games every day

any time that they are playing a lot. So I will remain a major supporter of

Arsenal. But I don't think if it makes sense

today to buy Arsenal. Do you regret not buying it before I

spoke? Actually, I regret not buying it before.

But you know, the my money was more needed in completing my project than

buying azimuth. So you would have bought it for 2

billion. Bought it for 2 billion.

Yeah. But, you know, I wouldn't have been able

to finish my project, you know, so it's either finish, you know, project by buy.

And I think the best decision was for us to now go and complete our refinery, of

which a lot of people don't believe it is going to work.

You remember you interviewed me about this in my family.

And our refinery really has been the I mean, it has been a discussion point all

over the world. Yes.

Because our capacity is about 1.1% of the entire global refining capacity, not

without challenges. It's had challenges.

A lot of challenges. A lot.

But you do it. Would you do it all over again?

I wouldn't do this kind of huge refinery project again.

You know, you can see I mean, you know, I mean, I told somebody doing this,

refineries would actually, you know, give me my career.

Thank you legal for your time today the exhibitors for I said good to see you

and I hope we see very soon again.