OpenBooks: The Internet Made Me Buy Lit

Summary

In this insightful panel discussion, Kerry Bernal, author and CBeebies personality, hosts a conversation with industry professionals Elle Jones, Kerry English, and Mubarak Alma Barrack about the digital landscape of book publishing. They delve into the impact of the internet on book discovery, the importance of metadata and social media for publishers and booksellers, and the power of community in the book industry. The panelists share their experiences, the role of data in marketing, and offer advice for aspiring professionals, highlighting the dynamic opportunities within the digital book world.

Takeaways

• 📚 The importance of digital presence in the book industry is highlighted, with online platforms and social media playing a significant role in book discovery and promotion.
• 🌐 Metadata is crucial for online visibility, encompassing all elements seen on websites like Amazon or bookshop.org, which influence consumer decisions.
• 🎥 Video content and social media channels, such as YouTube and TikTok, are vital for engaging with audiences and showcasing books in the digital landscape.
• 💻 Data analysis is essential for understanding audience demographics and preferences, as well as for optimizing marketing strategies in the book industry.
• 📈 The use of data can inform publishers about which books to promote, how to engage readers, and can even revive interest in older titles through targeted marketing.
• 🛍️ Bookshop.org supports independent bookstores by directing a portion of sales to them, emphasizing the value of community and local businesses in the book industry.
• 👩‍🎨 The role of a book cover as a 'face' of the book is underscored, with its impact on marketing, recognition, and sales.
• 🔍 The script emphasizes the value of internships and continuous learning in the creative industry, as well as the importance of pursuing one's passion despite initial discouragement.
• 📝 The significance of reading widely and staying engaged with the book community is stressed for anyone aspiring to work in the book industry.
• 💡 Creativity and innovation within digital roles in publishing are encouraged, as they offer flexibility and opportunities to explore new ideas and passions.
• 🔑 The script suggests that persistence, research, and networking are key to breaking into the book industry and developing a career path.

Q & A

What is the event 'Internet Made Me Buy It' about?

The event 'Internet Made Me Buy It' is part of Open Books and focuses on the digital landscape and the future of publishing, exploring the influence of the internet on book discovery and pop culture.

Who is Kerry Bernal and what are her roles?

Kerry Bernal is the author of 'Wilder the Midnight' and other titles. She is also known for her appearances on CBeebies. In this event, she is the host, facilitating the conversation with professionals in the book industry.

What is the significance of metadata in the publishing industry according to Elle Jones?

Metadata is crucial as it includes all the information seen on online retail websites like Amazon or bookshop.org, which is essential for book discoverability and online presence.

What is the role of Kerry English at bookshop.org?

Kerry English is the Marketing and Editorial Manager at bookshop.org, an online platform that supports independent bookshops by directing a portion of the sale price to them.

How does Mubarak Alma Barrack describe his role in brand and digital marketing?

Mubarak Alma Barrack is the Head of Brand and Digital Marketing at Penguin Michael Joseph. His role involves managing partnerships, brand presentation, messaging, and marketing strategies across digital platforms.

What advice does Mubarak give to those aspiring to work in the creative industry?

Mubarak suggests that one should follow their passion and not be intimidated by the industry. He emphasizes the importance of internships and continuous learning in the ever-evolving field of digital marketing.

Why is the digital presence of publishers and booksellers important for book promotion?

Digital presence is vital as it allows publishers and booksellers to connect directly with readers, participate in online communities, and leverage social media platforms to create new bestsellers and revive interest in older titles.

What is the role of bookshop.org in supporting independent bookstores?

Bookshop.org acts as an online platform for buying books that supports independent bookstores by ensuring a significant portion of each sale goes to these local businesses, helping them compete in the predominantly online book market.

How can young people interested in the book industry leverage social media?

Young people can use social media to engage with the book community, share their passion for reading, and demonstrate their knowledge and interest in books, which can be beneficial when applying for roles in the industry.

What is the importance of data in the book industry?

Data is important for understanding audience demographics, tracking the performance of marketing campaigns, and making informed decisions about publishing and promoting books.

What are some of the challenges and opportunities in the digital roles within the book industry?

Challenges include keeping up with rapidly changing digital trends and technologies. Opportunities lie in the ability to experiment with new ideas, engage with online communities, and influence publishing decisions based on digital insights.

Outlines

00:00

🎤 Introduction to the 'Internet Made Me Buy It' Event

The script opens with a warm welcome to the 'Internet Made Me Buy It' event, part of the Open Books series. Kerry Bernal, the author and host, introduces herself and sets the stage for a discussion on the digital landscape of the book industry. She emphasizes the importance of the internet and social media in finding the next book to read and introduces the panelists, each with expertise in different areas of book publishing and marketing.

05:01

🔍 The Role of Digital in Book Industry - Metadata and Social Media

This paragraph delves into the specifics of digital roles within the book industry, with a focus on metadata and social media. Elle Jones, head of metadata and video at Pan Macmillan Publishers, explains the importance of metadata in online retail and her responsibilities for social media channels. The discussion highlights how digital platforms are vital for connecting with readers and influencing publishing decisions based on audience engagement.

10:02

📚 Bookshop.org's Mission and Digital Marketing Strategies

Kerry English, the marketing and editorial manager for bookshop.org, discusses the platform's mission to support independent bookstores through online sales. She emphasizes the significance of digital marketing in creating a community around books and the importance of being visible where readers are most active online. The conversation touches on the role of bookshop.org in curating lists and recommendations to surface both new and older book titles.

15:04

🌐 The Impact of Digital on Book Promotion and Community Building

The panelists explore how digital platforms influence book promotion and the formation of book-loving communities. They discuss the resurgence of older titles through social media and the importance of being present where book lovers are active. The conversation also covers the idea that young people can contribute to the industry by engaging in book discussions online, even before having a formal career in it.

20:04

📊 Understanding Data's Role in Book Marketing

Mubarak Alma Barrack, head of brand and digital marketing, discusses the concept of data in the book industry, covering audience demographics and advertising performance. He explains how data helps in creating effective marketing campaigns and emphasizes the balance between creativity and analysis in marketing strategies. The paragraph also touches on the importance of not getting lost in data and maintaining a broad perspective on marketing efforts.

25:05

🎨 The Significance of Book Covers and Data in Email Marketing

The discussion continues with the importance of book covers as the 'face' of a book and the role of data in email marketing. Elle Jones highlights the power of newsletters in engaging with an audience that is already passionate about books. The paragraph also touches on the importance of recognizing and leveraging the engaged community that subscribes to such newsletters.

30:06

🚀 Future Opportunities in the Digital Book Industry

Looking ahead, the panelists consider the future of the digital book industry, with a focus on the growth of ebooks, audiobooks, and the importance of social media platforms like Book Talk. They predict an increase in online book discovery and the continued growth of digital communities around books, emphasizing the need for publishers and booksellers to adapt to these trends.

💡 Insights into the Roles and Surprises in Book Industry Marketing

Mubarak shares insights into his role, highlighting the surprising extent of activities that constitute marketing in the book industry. He discusses the blurred lines between PR, press, and marketing, and how seemingly organic content can be part of a larger marketing strategy. The paragraph encourages aspiring professionals to deconstruct the marketing behind the books they read and to consider the various touchpoints that influence their reading choices.

🛠️ Skills and Advice for Aspiring Digital Professionals in the Book Industry

The panelists offer advice for young people interested in digital roles within the book industry. They stress the importance of reading widely, maintaining an analytical mindset, and staying imaginative. The conversation also includes practical tips for job applications, such as not being intimidated by job descriptions, researching roles, and reaching out to professionals in the field for insights.

Keywords

💡Metadata

Metadata refers to the data that describes, explains, or makes it easier to use or find the information in a digital context. In the video, Elle Jones describes her role as the head of metadata, which includes managing the information seen on online retail websites like Amazon or bookshop.org. This is crucial for the discoverability and promotion of books online.

💡Digital Landscape

The term 'digital landscape' encompasses the online environment where digital technology, social media, and digital marketing play a significant role. The video discusses the impact of the digital landscape on the book industry, particularly how it influences publishing and book sales, as well as how it shapes the future of the industry.

💡Book Industry

The 'book industry' is the collective term for all sectors involved in the production, marketing, and sale of books. The video's theme revolves around the book industry, focusing on the roles of various professionals within it, and how digital platforms and social media are changing the way books are marketed and sold.

💡Social Media

Social media platforms are online channels that allow users to create and share content or participate in social networking. The video highlights the role of social media in the book industry, especially in how it facilitates book discovery, promotion, and community building among readers and authors.

💡Bookshop.org

Bookshop.org is an online platform for buying books that supports independent bookstores. It is mentioned in the video as an alternative to large online retailers like Amazon, emphasizing its role in the community-focused approach to book sales and its significance in the digital transformation of the book industry.

💡Indie Bookshops

Indie bookshops, or independent bookstores, are locally owned and operated, often providing a more personalized and curated selection of books. The video discusses the importance of supporting indie bookshops, especially in the context of online sales and the challenges posed by larger retailers.

💡Digital Marketing

Digital marketing involves promoting products or services using digital channels such as search engines, social media, email, and websites. Mubarak Alma Barrack talks about his role in digital marketing, which includes managing brand presence and marketing strategies on digital platforms to reach and engage readers.

💡Community

In the context of the video, 'community' refers to the collective of readers, authors, and industry professionals who share a common interest in books. The script emphasizes the nurturing and supportive nature of the book community, particularly in digital spaces like social media and online forums.

💡Book Talk

Book talk refers to discussions and conversations about books, often in a social or online setting. The video mentions 'book talk' as a significant aspect of the digital landscape, where readers share recommendations and engage in discussions that influence book popularity and sales.

💡Data

Data, in the book industry context, refers to information collected and analyzed to inform marketing strategies, understand audience demographics, and measure the effectiveness of campaigns. The video discusses the importance of leveraging data to make informed decisions and optimize marketing efforts in the digital age.

💡Careers in the Book Industry

The video explores various careers within the book industry, such as editing, marketing, and digital roles, and provides insights into the skills and passions that can be applied in these careers. It also offers advice for those interested in entering the industry, emphasizing the importance of reading, networking, and staying imaginative.

Highlights

Introduction to the 'Internet Made Me Buy It' event, part of Open Books, hosted by Kerry Bernal.

Kerry Bernal is an author and a familiar face from CBeebies, setting the stage for a conversation on digital influence in the book industry.

Elle Jones introduces herself as Head of Metadata and Video at Pan Macmillan Publishers, explaining the role of metadata in online retail.

Kerry English describes her role as Marketing and Editorial Manager for bookshop.org, emphasizing support for independent bookstores.

Mubarak Alma Barrack discusses his position as Head of Brand and Digital Marketing at Penguin Michael Joseph, detailing the scope of his responsibilities.

Mubarak shares his journey from studying pharmacy to breaking into the creative industry through internships.

The panel discusses the importance of digital roles in publishing, highlighting their direct link to readers and influence on publishing decisions.

Elle Jones talks about the resurgence of older titles on platforms like TikTok, showcasing the power of digital communities in book discovery.

Kerry English emphasizes the significance of digital presence in the book industry, particularly the role of bookshop.org in connecting readers with indie bookstores.

The panelists discuss the value of having a book talk platform for young book lovers, suggesting it as a way to engage with the industry early on.

Mubarak explains the concept of data in the book industry, discussing its role in audience demographics and advertising effectiveness.

Elle Jones highlights the importance of email marketing and data capture in building a community of engaged readers.

Kerry English reflects on the revolutionary impact of bookshop.org and its growth, particularly during the pandemic.

The panel explores future opportunities in the book industry, focusing on the growth of digital platforms and social media's role in book discovery.

Elle Jones shares her enjoyment of her dual role in metadata and video, appreciating the flexibility and creativity it allows.

Mubarak surprises listeners by revealing the extensive activities that fall under marketing, often unseen by the public.

Kerry Bernal concludes the session with advice for aspiring professionals in the book industry, emphasizing persistence, research, and networking.

Transcripts

hello and welcome to the internet made

me buy lit which I just think is such a

brilliant and Jazzy and fun title this

event is part of open books My Name is

Kerry Bernal and I am the author of

Wilder the midnight and some other

titles and depending on your age you may

also recognize me from my ears on

CBeebies

today I'm delighted to be hosting a

conversation with three very talented

people across the book industry

just before we get started in the spirit

of inclusion I'm going to audio describe

myself so I am a white woman I'm in my

40s I've got a lot of makeup on because

I'm quite tired I'm trying to get up

um I identify as having a disability I'm

at home at the moment I've got long

blonde hair and I've got a lovely

background of butterflies behind me

let me tell you a little bit about open

Books open books will be bringing you a

wonderful and exciting selection of

online events and short videos

introducing you to careers within the

book industry it will show you how you

could put your interests passions and

creative skills to work whether it be in

art and design business or worldwide

travel which sounds amazing I would and

languages we'll also be diving deeper

into some of the jobs in the book

industry you might already know about

such as working as an editor or in areas

like marketing and publicity

this panel the internet made me buy it

is all about the digital landscape and

the future of publishing we all know

that the internet has a huge influence

on us and on pop culture and with the

rise of book talk which we all

absolutely love it's fair to say that

there has never been a better time to

find your next read online or via social

media there are so many exciting

developments in the digital space and in

this event we're going to take a deep

dive into exploring what it's like to be

working in this area so I'm really

pleased to be being joined by three

fantastic people who know a lot more

about this than me and I'm going to

start by asking each of them to

introduce themselves so L let's start

with you

hi everyone

um my name is Elle Jones and I am head

of metadata and a video at Panera Millen

Publishers house

um metadata is a rather boring term

um that kind of describes everything

that you will see on a website like a

online retail website like Amazon for

example or bookshop.org it's everything

that you see on that website it's all

sorts of behind the scenes stuff as well

and with video I'm in charge of our

YouTube channels and our Tick Tock

Channel which is really exciting

and do audio describe myself I'm a woman

in her 30s a white woman in her 30s with

long blonde hair sitting in a rather

boring little cubby hole in her office

it's actually not that boring and I yes

well done for audio describing yourself

and I think it was really good to get

that clarification around sort of meta

because that's yeah that term can mean

different things and it really can so

um I'm learning a lot today as well and

also where you are isn't that boring it

looks it's so exciting to me or to

someone who doesn't work in the book

industry

um let's come to Kerry next

yeah so hi I'm Kerry English I'm the

marketing and editorial manager for

bookshop.org

um to audio describe myself I am a white

woman in her 30s I'm wearing uh a black

polo neck jumper and I've got a blonde

Fringe and an orange cushion behind me

um should have a wall of books behind me

but um I don't today

um so bookshop.org just to quickly

introduce is

um an online place for buying books

um it supports independent bookshops so

it's instead of buying books from Amazon

or other online Outlets you can buy them

from bookshop.org and a big portion of

the sale price goes to Indie bookshops

so two-thirds of books are bought online

today and we want a big chunk of that

market to go to bricks and mortar

bookshops

we absolutely do I mean I think we all

love Indie bookshops and you you just

can't underestimate the power and

loveliness and warmth of having a local

Indie so that's amazing to hear about

and um yeah I'll certainly be checking

them out very soon

um Mubarak let's come to you you can

introduce yourself and tell us all about

you uh my name is Mubarak Alma Barrack

I'm the head of brand in digital

marketing at penguin Michael Joseph

um to audio describe myself I'm a black

man in my 30s I'm wearing a white shirt

and I have a

very boring I think the most boring

background of us all a great background

behind me

um so my role uh as head of Brandon and

digital marketing

on the brand side that's kind of

everything that you would think of when

you think of a brand so sometimes

um that's the Partnerships that we do

sometimes it's the logo how we present

ourselves what our messaging is

um as as as an imprint and then on the

marketing side it's everything from Paid

advertising the kind of advice that you

see on social media to content on social

media and um and everything on on

digital platforms

okay so that's actually quite a lot

um so it'd be great perhaps to just

unpack that a little bit more

um and really find out how you got

started Mubarak have you always wanted

to work in the book industry how did you

get started on this particular career

path

um so for me uh growing up the creative

industry was more of a

a pipe dream

um I was kind of

taught from various people from a young

age that you know if you want to have a

successful life you want to do a

profession in something like science or

engineering or something like that so I

was actually studying

um pharmacy in University

um when I decided to make a break for it

and and you know enter the creative

industry I was interested in publishing

um and I got put in touch with creative

access who offered internships

um and I started my internship at Pam

McMillan I learned a lot there and then

I got a permanent role there and then

from there kind of onwards I kind of

continued that journey of learning and

working and that really helped in terms

of marketing especially digital

marketing because it's one of those

things that changes

every year or every update or you know

very very quickly so that kind of nature

of learning and working kind of really

helped with that

so when you were a young person I'm just

really interested uh you know to to

briefly touch upon when you kind of you

turned and really decided to follow your

heart when you were you know perhaps 14

or 19 you know the age of some of our

audience did you really imagine yourself

working in Creative Industries or or had

that not crossed the mind at that point

uh it crossed my mind

um and then I was told a good intention

that it's something that's kind of very

difficult

um to get into so I should kind of look

for something that's kind of safer and

more secure and my grades were good in

terms of science and math so I was

headed into that direction

um and then in terms of why I made a

break for it

um I think it's got it it's amazing yeah

yeah I think it's also going to do with

the the nature of work in in Pharmacy I

just found myself

um I enjoyed studying but I found myself

kind of bored with that

um and then it was just a case of me

kind of

looking searching researching online

seeing if there was you know what

options were really there

um and the internship program really

really helped with that

um yeah

that that's really

um encouraging to hear uh and I you know

and I'm sure lots of the people

listening or tuning in will be really uh

motivated to find out about you know

brilliant internships that can support

creative career paths and dreams and Al

let's come to you now and I would like

to know why our roles in digital so

important for the book industry how does

digital inform the kind of things that

Publishers and booksellers do how do

they create new best sellers and also

shine a light on older and perhaps less

known but still very much loved titles

I think that digital roles are really

important in publishing because we are a

direct link to the readers because we're

involved with digital communities the

actual people who are talking about

books on their tick tocks on their

Instagram on Twitter on YouTube or

leaving their their reviews on sites

like storygraph and Goodreads we're a

direct we can have a direct conversation

with those people and we can feed back

into people who make decisions about

what books to publish they might want to

know if a book they're considering

buying

that author might for example have a

really big

um social audience they might have a

really popular Instagram Channel but how

often are they actually using it back

are they likely to talk about our book

on their Channel and other things like

that that can be really important

publishing decisions we kind of can help

help be a link between different

departments in the book industry and

also actual reader and in terms of

things like

um helping older titles see see the sun

again

um in addition to a lot of the wonderful

work that book sellers do with

displaying books

um in bookshops

is what we've seen particularly on Tick

Tock is this amazing phenomenon of books

that are are quite a few years old and

haven't had that much promotion or

marketing around them recently really

coming to the fore and again that's

because of these communities

um readers who were maybe yeah maybe

everyone read that book 10 years ago but

there's a whole new batch of people who

have grown up and now want to read those

books there's always fresh audiences for

books and I think that's been really

fascinating when we've seen some

bestsellers that were published quite a

few years ago rising up the charts on

Amazon again I think it's really

exciting

and I I love your description of the

community you know that it's this kind

of very nurturing and warm and

encouraging place which is always how I

found it as an author and I think you've

maybe inspired me to finally join book

talk but we'll see we'll see to be

converted

um Kerry can I ask you a similar

question why do you think that digital

is so important for the book industry

um and how does it really help in terms

of promotion yeah so I'd say that it's

pretty vital everyone's online all the

time that's where we'll live now

um so sort of you have to be visible

um where where people are looking and

where people are sort of passionate

about books it's important to be able to

kind of make the connection and uh just

be be findable and and create spaces

where people can

um talk about books find books and be

and yeah form a kind of a digital

Community really

um that's really where bookshop.org

comes in without sort of forming this

bridge between Publishers and bookshops

and so working with um

with Publishers to say you know show us

the books that you're excited about that

are coming out soon but also show us

what's on your back list so the books

that are from um you know have

previously been published and that's one

of the exciting things about the the

lists uh that we surface so we sort of

surface lists of recommendations from

authors and from uh Bookshop owners

um and from book bloggers tick tockers

across the whole book loving Community

to try and sort of show a breadth of

titles so

um that is a really great way to surface

some of these uh titles that have may

have kind of fallen off the radar

um being where Book Lovers are really

and I suppose especially

um you know I don't need to prompt you

there but especially with the pandemic I

suppose there will have been you know

glorious books that have launched and

perhaps not found their true readership

yet

um so it's it's wonderful to know that

they can still have a platform and sort

of surface as you say which is a lovely

way of describing it I'm just wondering

what your thoughts are on um for any

young person who who you know adores

books you think that it's useful you

know perhaps if you're in your early 20s

to have your own sort of book talk

platform

um so that you can be learning and

feeding into that industry already

perhaps you know before you're even

thinking about having a serious career

absolutely yeah I think that the one

thing that I was always told

um if I wanted to work in any kind of

book industry uh was just a read why

really widely and so that sort of first

Port of Call read as much as you can

um and yeah to be able to talk about

those books and give your opinion on

those books online is brilliant because

any sort of anyone that might be hiring

you can can see that you're genuinely

passionate about uh the books that

you're um talking about or so if you're

going for a role in publishing it's

great to read some of the key books on

their list

um and then yeah sort of showcase them

on your social channels if you can but I

wouldn't say that it's an absolute sort

of must

um because if that's not something you

sort of feel comfortable with if social

isn't the thing that you're sort of

doing a lot of

um to do with books I yeah I don't

necessarily have to go beyond your

comfort zone but absolutely do read as

much as you can and yeah just show your

show your passion for it

I was really beautifully putting I think

you know it's really worthwhile just

um yeah just really stating you don't

have to be on socials actually if you

feel inspired to be and and if that's

where your passion is going you know it

certainly wouldn't hurt but it's as

you've you know already said it's really

not necessary

and Mubarak let's come to you we're

going to be talking about data for a

little bit so what exactly do we mean in

the book industry when we talk about

data and why is it important and how do

can we how can we leverage it how can we

use it

um today it is quite

um a broad term and it can cover

everything from your audience

demographic so she's you know where do

they live how old are they where do they

shop

um to also it can relate to your adverts

directly so for example if you uh on the

receiving end you know you may be

scrolling through Instagram and you get

served an ad

um you may click on it you may just

Breeze past it you may click on it the

second time you're served it but on the

other end you have data around that

advert so you can see how is that advert

performing are people engaging with it

are people clicking through our people

interacting with it and you can compare

different ads to see what it is that's

making that ad work so maybe one ad

um with a certain copy line with a

certain kind of message around the book

um May mean that a lot more people click

on it so know half of the people let's

say that's that's a very high number but

let's just say half the people are are

clicking on it but then you have

something else with a different line

that's maybe a quote instead of a

description about the book and not that

many people click on it so when you look

at that data you can say okay for this

maybe just for this specific book or

maybe for other books

um let's try let's try the more

successful version or you can do

something with visuals maybe there's a

red background and yellow background and

and the other one's more successful so

you can do more ads with that color

palette

um but in terms of the data you have to

especially with marketing you have to

kind of balance the your creativity with

your analytical mind so you want to be

kind of creative and open-minded when

you are creating the ads when you are

creating the the marketing campaign what

is it about this book that really kind

of will connect with these people what

is it about the audience that you know

know that that draws them in and then

you want to be analytical when you're

reviewing what's working and what isn't

working maybe your digital ads just

aren't working at all and that's because

people of of that Community or people or

your audience don't like to interact

with us instead they like to interact

with

um content with Community with more

organic content on tiktok so maybe your

your money is better spent your time is

better spent

um sending

um books to tick tockers or to YouTubers

or to bloggers

um and then you can kind of see so you

have that analytical mind in terms of

your reviewing but you still keep your

creativity in terms of ads

um but data in general is kind of one of

those things that's used as a backdrop

for your campaigns I think it's

important not to get lost in data

um and kind of just you know just

looking right down to just the numbers

and figures and not looking at the

broader picture of a conversation and

the community and and everything else

around your marketing campaign

yeah I completely agree that sometimes

the beta

way of looking at things

um so that it was a lovely reminder that

actually it's yes it is really useful

but you always have to be really Broad

in your approach

um and just one uh last little Point how

important do you think it is to have an

absolutely dazzlingly stunning front

cover for a book I think it's very

important

um I think it's really important shout

out to illustrators then yeah uh I I

think it's really important I mean the

cover is

the

I mean this this may be a bad way of

putting it but in my mind the cover is

is it it's the face of a book like if we

think of a person who we know and who we

like and who we admire when we think of

them we think of their face you know

it's that so the cover is what we're

showing on our adverts the cover is what

people are holding up on Tick Tock the

cover is what you're walking in and

looking for in a Bookshop

um so yeah so the cover is really

important to to to make the book stand

out but also something that's

recognizable

yes the door to the story I guess really

isn't it and all the face as you so

beautifully said

um Elle is there anything you would like

to add uh to the conversation around

data and and why you think it's

important

um I would say that data is quite

essential in terms of what we call email

marketing

so you know maybe you're on a website

and it it says do you want to subscribe

to our newsletter

that creates the small community of

people that you know are already engaged

if someone is signing up to a newsletter

about books they love books they really

do if they're willing to make that

decision so you kind of in a sense have

a really powerful tool at your disposal

so a lot of the time people will try to

build in what's called Data capture into

campaigns where they'll try and get more

people subscribing to email newsletters

because it is so powerful because you

know these people love books it's not

just so sometimes for competitions you

might just get

um entries by people who are called

Compass people who just love

competitions and love to win things they

maybe aren't readers and maybe not that

they don't care

um especially if the prize maybe isn't

maybe the prize isn't a book maybe a

prize is a trip to a city that a book is

set in that sort of distances it away so

you can get more of a risk of people who

aren't that engaged being involved but

if you can get things like newsletters

where it's all about books and you know

that that audience is really engaged and

it's such a powerful tool to have oh

amazing yes I haven't really considered

all of those points so it's it's just

really wonderful to hear about them

um Kerry let's come to you my love

um

so in the time that you've been working

in your specific area what kind of

changes have you noticed and for you

what have been some of the most exciting

developments

well I would say this but I think the

the existence of bookshop.org is is

quite revolutionary in itself so it was

set up in 2019 in the US and then

launched in the UK in 2020 when there

was a pandemic happening so the the

timing was pretty great for book sellers

um in terms of them being supported but

also really great for uh people that

were looking to support independent

bookshops

um online and also get their books in a

kind of convenient way

um so because of that launch and because

of yeah the fact that we sort of now

exist I think that's made a huge

difference to the conversation around

independent bookshops and I think that

um Publishers have always supported

independent bookshops in really

meaningful ways but this has just

created a whole new channel for them to

support and in terms of

um the sort of data and digital side of

things to Elle's Point

um like our newsletter is

um pretty crazy it's got 300 000

subscribers and um those are really

dedicated uh book clubs that are really

plugged into reading about books and

that is an incredibly powerful tool

um so yeah in terms of sort of the

changes and um

uh developments within the industry in

that time I feel quite honored to have

been able to be part of the team that

has

um really spearheaded that kind of

digital movement towards supporting

bookshops in the last couple of years

um so yeah we're just looking to kind of

grow that community

I'm sure you'll have more subscribers

after today

um I'll just come to you with the next

question as well what do you think might

happen in this area in the future are

there new opportunities that you can see

arising

um particularly in connection to social

media or digital roles within the book

world

definitely I think that the whole

movement is is heading this way it has

been for a long time

um I feel like uh there's all sorts of

new technologies that are kind of

getting plugged in as you mentioned book

talks really huge

um so we've just become an official

retailer on book talk so you can

actually buy through bookshop.org on

booktalk and book talkers can talk about

books and link to us but I absolutely

feel like

um yeah it's all about digital

everything is moving that way so in

terms of

um sort of developments I guess that uh

you know ebooks and audio books have

been uh growing with great speed

um over the last few years so I think a

lot more of that will be happening

um and yeah I suppose people will just

become more and more Savvy in terms of

um looking for books online and looking

for new places to to look for them

online

um and yeah hopefully just keep talking

about them sort of on their on their own

socials and uh you know growing the

community that way

well that's super exciting to hear about

book talk and how I would like to come

to you to find out what do you like best

about working in your particular area

and what are some of the challenges

gosh that's a tough one

um I think for me because my role is

quite uh unusual in the sense that I've

kind of got two two hats on I have a

metadata hat on and I have a video hat

on

um and I kind of have that role because

I asked for it I initially started in

metadata and I wanted video I wanted it

so I kind of pursued it and I asked for

it and I said I'm interested in this can

I take on more responsibility here so

what I really enjoy about my role is

that I get that opportunity to be two

different people I can be really

creative and I can also be really like

detailed deep down analytical I can do

both of those things and that kind of

Suits who I am and I really really enjoy

that whereas I think some other roles

maybe maybe more traditional roles in

the book industry they don't get to

switch things up that way so I really

like that about my role

no just it's really encouraging to hear

you say that you actually initiated the

role in a sense and and you asked for

more and you were given that

responsibility and it's you you really

nurtured your creativity and your talent

um with video so do you want to just

talk about how that happened briefly

yeah

um I would say in digital roles in

particular there's a lot more

opportunity I think for flexibility if

someone has a particular interest if

someone in my team has a particular

interest that maybe is slightly outside

of their remit that they they feel

passionately about it then I'm more than

willing to give them that space to

experiment and try new things and their

career paths can grow that way because

in more traditional

um publishing roles there's kind of an

established career path

you know you might go from editorial

assistant to Editor to senior editor

it's kind of blotted out for you and in

newer roles

like in the digital sphere it's not

plotted out there's so much more

opportunity for you to say oh actually I

really care about influencer marketing

I'm really fascinated by this or well I

really love

um writing blog pieces for the website

you know whatever your kind of passion

is there's space for that in digital and

I think you kind of have to chase it

down and maybe you might have to ask a

few times like I did

um but if you can show

that you care about it and that you can

help support other people in roles

similar to that and that you can be

useful teammate to them that can be a

really good way of showing

um that you want to you want to develop

your role in a different path

wonderful

um and Mubarak what might surprise

people about your job

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what surprises you about it I think I

think what might surprise people about

the job

um particularly people who don't work in

the industry or in marketing

um I'd say it's the amount of activity

that we do that they wouldn't

necessarily think of as marketing

um I mean we're all used to you know

seeing a billboard or seeing an advert

um whether it's on video on demand on on

TV

um on Instagram

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um and and we tend to kind of think that

we're

Savvy enough to kind of know what you

know what is marketing and what isn't

but there's there's a lot of things for

example let's say for example you go on

YouTube to look up a particular product

or to find out more about a particular

product

um you may skip the ads because you're

not interested in the ads but what

you're actually looking up and and

watching is content marketing whether

it's something that that the person who

creates the product

um paid for or it's something that they

sent the item or whether it's uh or to

that particular YouTuber or Creator or

whether they're you know it's it's

it all of it is is is marketing to to an

extent

um and I think that there's a lot of it

and I think what would help as well for

someone looking to get in in the book

industry and particularly in marketing

is we're thinking about a book try and

kind of deconstruct it you know where

did I first hear about this what is it

about this that piqued my interest what

is it that reinforced it you know was

there a conversation someone had and you

say I've heard a lot about that you know

where did you hear a lot about that and

when you kind of bring all those pieces

in together

all of that is is marketing and and when

we tend to kind of work side by side

with PR and press and a lot of those

lines kind of blurring together so maybe

you hear about something on the radio

and then you see an advert for it and

then you you know someone in your in

your reading group is talking about it

and all of those kind of things feed

into one another until you decide which

book you're gonna buy next and read next

and then you know your decision is made

there

um so yeah I think what would surprise

people is the amount of work that's

involved in in marketing behind the

scenes

it's a really really great advice there

um is there anything else you would

quickly like to add about the kind of

skills that young people might need if

they are interested in digital roles in

the book industry

I would say reading is essential um

regardless of kind of where you want to

work you really want to be reading

um you never have enough time to read

all the books and so make sure that you

don't lose your love of reading trying

to read everything and see what it is

that you like

um

uh there's a lot that you can do I mean

even if you don't I'm not someone who

likes to post a lot on social media but

I do a lot of lurking uh I'm on Tech

talk I'm a lot of things probably a

terrible word for it

um but I'm I'm on Tech talk a lot

um I'm kind of seeing what's posted I'm

seeing kind of the way people connect

with it

um uh on on Instagram as well on YouTube

um and that and I think there's a lot

that you can do before you get a chance

to actually put things into practice so

there's a lot of kind of deconstructing

and reversing engineering with the ads

that you're being served you know how

you're hearing about about the book

um and then in terms of skills in

general I would say an analytical mind

would help

um so kind of keep that part alive

um

you know however that is whether it's

kind of I I YouTube is a really good

source

um especially for things you had no idea

about

um just to get kind of get that top

level understanding oh is there anything

you'd like to add

um I would say stay imaginative uh there

are all sorts of different career paths

available in the book industry and as I

said before you can kind of change and

develop that how you like but also you

can explore new ideas within within

whatever your role may be I find it

really inspirational to see my other

like other colleagues coming up with

amazing ideas that we haven't thought

about new things to try and it keeps

things exciting

yeah that's a really generous and lovely

um reply thank you is there anything you

would like to um add or any seeds of

advice that you would like to give sure

yes I've actually typed out some sort of

top five things to think about

um

um so I applied for tons of jobs

um and the key is like not to don't give

up

um don't be set back too much if you

don't get the job

um don't be intimidated by job

descriptions there's a massive one they

can seem really overly complex and you

can learn a lot on the job like so I

think that was a big one sometimes job

descriptions just seem ridiculously

intimidating so don't be disheartened by

them go go for it anyway

um research the roles you're looking at

read some of the key books as I

mentioned before

um on published websites

um think about skills you already have

from social media to being a good

communicator and in terms of

communication that seems really obvious

but listening and being interested in

other people's roles and their work

makes a huge difference to how you're

received

um and reach out to people in similar

roles you can use LinkedIn or sort of

Social and just say you know would you

mind jumping on a 10 minute Zoom to

explain to me a little bit about

um about this job or about what you do

um people can be sort of amazingly

receptive and

um yeah I think those those are the key

bits of advice that I would give anyone

well thank you they were all absolutely

golden

um and and just really impactful so

thank you for that and a huge thank you

to all of our amazing panelists thank

you so much for joining us today

um if you would like to find out more

about careers in the book industry make

sure to check out one of our open books

online events and of course all of the

videos will be on the website thank you

so much for joining us today and we hope

you have a wonderful best of your day