Pro-Vaccine vs Anti-Vaccine: Should Your Kids Get Vaccinated? | Middle Ground

Summary

In this episode of 'Middle Ground', a diverse group of individuals including parents, a pediatrician, and a pediatric intensive care physician engage in a nuanced discussion on vaccination. They share personal experiences, medical perspectives, and the importance of informed consent. The conversation touches on the complexities of vaccine safety, the balance between individual choice and public health, and the need for empathy and understanding in a polarized debate.

Takeaways

• 👨‍⚕️ The participants include a mix of medical professionals and parents, each with unique perspectives on vaccination.
• 🤔 There's a shared desire for open dialogue and understanding, acknowledging the complexity of vaccine decisions.
• 👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 Parents express concerns about vaccine safety, particularly after personal experiences with adverse reactions in their children.
• 💉 Medical professionals emphasize the importance of vaccines for individual and public health, citing the benefits of preventing serious diseases.
• 🚫 Some parents feel pressured to vaccinate despite personal reservations, highlighting the tension between individual choice and societal expectations.
• 🤝 There's a call for empathy and compassion in the vaccine conversation, recognizing the emotional and personal nature of these decisions.
• 🧐 The discussion reveals a need for better communication between parents and healthcare providers, with a focus on trust and understanding.
• 🔍 The script underscores the importance of informed consent, with individuals seeking to understand the risks and benefits of vaccination.
• 🏥 There's a recognition of the role of medical professionals in guiding vaccine decisions, but also a call for them to listen to patient concerns.
• 🌐 The conversation reflects broader societal debates about vaccination, touching on issues of personal freedom, public health, and medical ethics.

Q & A

What are the main themes discussed in the script?

The main themes include vaccine safety, informed consent, the importance of risk-benefit analysis in vaccinations, the role of medical professionals, and compassion for different viewpoints on vaccination decisions.

What personal experience did Marissa Gold share regarding vaccines?

Marissa Gold shared that her last vaccination caused a severe reaction, leading to arthritis in her hands. This experience prompted her to investigate vaccines more deeply, especially when making decisions for her children.

What concerns do some parents have about trusting doctors, according to the script?

Some parents feel that doctors only see their children for brief periods during appointments and may not know their children as well as the parents do. This makes them hesitant to trust medical recommendations without further research.

What argument does David Epstein, a pediatric intensive care physician, present in favor of vaccinations?

David Epstein emphasizes that vaccines have significantly reduced the number of preventable diseases and that, despite rare side effects, the benefits of vaccination far outweigh the risks.

What criticism does Melissa Floyd offer regarding the conversation around vaccine risks?

Melissa Floyd argues that the risks of vaccines are often downplayed and that parents are not given a full picture of the potential side effects, which makes it difficult for them to make fully informed decisions.

How do the participants view the role of compassion in the vaccine debate?

Many participants feel that compassion is lacking in the debate, particularly toward parents whose children have experienced adverse reactions to vaccines. They believe that these experiences are often dismissed or downplayed.

What does Bob Sears mean by 'safe-ish' when referring to vaccines?

Bob Sears acknowledges that vaccines are tested and generally safe, but he emphasizes that no medical intervention is completely without risks. He suggests that it’s important to consider individual reactions and variations in vaccine efficacy.

What are the concerns about ‘herd immunity’ mentioned in the script?

Some participants argue that herd immunity is important because it protects those who cannot be vaccinated, such as people with immune issues or young children. Others express concerns that vaccinated individuals can still spread diseases, which complicates the concept of herd immunity.

How does Marissa Gold describe her decision-making process regarding vaccines for her children?

Marissa Gold explains that after her personal experience with vaccine reactions, she had to reconsider vaccinating her children. She feels torn between protecting her children from potential harm and societal pressure to vaccinate for the collective good.

What do the participants agree on regarding the importance of communication between doctors and parents?

Participants agree that communication is key. They stress the importance of doctors listening to parents’ concerns and taking time to build trust, as parents know their children best and should be part of the decision-making process.

Outlines

00:00

💉 Vaccine Perspectives and Personal Experiences

The first paragraph introduces a diverse group of individuals, each with unique perspectives on vaccination. Marissa Gold, a parenting expert and mother, shares her experience with her daughter's adverse reaction to a vaccine, leading to arthritis. David Epstein, a pediatric intensive care physician, emphasizes the importance of vaccines in preventing severe diseases. Gary Shlifer and Bob Sears, both pediatricians, discuss the nuances of vaccine efficacy and the need for informed consent. Melissa Floyd, an informed consent advocate, stresses the importance of open dialogue. The paragraph also touches on personal vaccination histories, with some individuals having been vaccinated and others not, and the varying reasons behind their choices.

05:06

🤔 The Complexity of Vaccine Decisions and Trust in Medical Advice

In the second paragraph, the discussion delves into the complexities of deciding on vaccinations, especially after experiencing adverse reactions. Parents express concerns about continuing vaccinations for their children after negative experiences and the societal pressure to do so for the greater good. Medical professionals acknowledge the rarity of severe side effects but emphasize the importance of vaccines in preventing disease outbreaks. There's a call for a balanced risk-benefit analysis and a recognition of the individuality of each child's health situation. Trust in medical advice is questioned, with parents advocating for research and second opinions, while doctors express the desire for trust and collaboration in patient care.

10:07

🌟 Navigating Medical Advice and the Impact of Vaccine Debates

The third paragraph continues the conversation about the relationship between parents and medical professionals, highlighting the importance of listening and understanding in doctor-patient interactions. It also addresses the emotional and social consequences of the vaccine debate, with individuals experiencing isolation and hostility due to their views. There's a plea for compassion and acknowledgment of personal experiences, whether they involve vaccine reactions or the loss of children to preventable diseases. The paragraph concludes with a call for open dialogue and questioning as a means of advancing research and societal understanding, emphasizing the shared goal of ensuring children's health and well-being.

Keywords

💡Compassion

Compassion refers to a deep awareness of the suffering of others coupled with the desire to alleviate it. In the video, the call for more compassion is a plea for understanding and acknowledgment of the personal struggles and experiences related to vaccination decisions. It is highlighted as a missing element in the polarized debate around vaccines, where individuals wish to be heard and their experiences validated without judgment.

💡Vaccination

Vaccination is the administration of vaccines to create immunity to infectious diseases. The video script revolves around personal narratives and professional opinions on vaccination, reflecting on the benefits and risks, as well as the impact of vaccination status on individuals and public health.

💡Informed Consent

Informed consent in the context of the video refers to the process of making a voluntary decision about vaccination after being fully informed of the benefits, risks, and alternatives. Bob Sears, a pediatrician in the script, emphasizes the importance of informed consent for vaccinations, suggesting that individuals should have all the information necessary to make an educated choice.

💡Severe Reaction

A severe reaction to a vaccine is a significant adverse effect that occurs post-vaccination. Marissa Gold shares her personal experience of having a severe reaction to a vaccine, which led to arthritis in her hands. This example illustrates the real and serious concerns some individuals have regarding the potential side effects of vaccines.

💡Herd Immunity

Herd immunity, also known as community immunity, is a form of indirect protection from infectious diseases that occurs when a large percentage of a population becomes immune to an infection, thereby providing a measure of protection for individuals who are not immune. Melissa Floyd mentions herd immunity as a reason why vaccines are important, as they protect not only the vaccinated individuals but also those who are vulnerable.

💡Risk-Benefit Analysis

Risk-benefit analysis is a process of evaluating the potential risks and benefits of a particular action or decision. In the video, the discussion around vaccines often returns to this concept, with participants weighing the potential risks of vaccination against the benefits of disease prevention. This analysis is central to the decision-making process regarding vaccination.

💡Medical Exemptions

Medical exemptions are exceptions to vaccination requirements granted for valid medical reasons, such as a history of severe allergic reactions to a vaccine component. The script discusses the validity of medical exemptions, suggesting that they are necessary for children who have experienced adverse reactions to vaccines.

💡Anaphylactic Shock

Anaphylactic shock is a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction that can occur in response to certain substances, including some vaccine components. The script mentions anaphylactic shock as a rare but serious potential side effect of vaccination, which is part of the broader discussion on vaccine safety and the need for accurate information about risks.

💡Doctor-Patient Relationship

The doctor-patient relationship is the interaction and bond between healthcare providers and their patients, which is crucial for effective healthcare delivery. The video script includes discussions about the importance of trust and communication in this relationship, particularly when it comes to making decisions about vaccination.

💡Polarizing

Polarizing refers to something that causes people to take strongly opposing views, often leading to division. The video script highlights how the vaccination debate has become polarized, with individuals on either side of the issue struggling to find common ground and engage in productive dialogue.

💡Radical Empathy

Radical empathy is the practice of deeply understanding and sharing the feelings of others, especially those with different viewpoints. The video creators from Jubilee media mention their goal to encourage radical empathy in their work, which aligns with the video's aim to facilitate a respectful and compassionate conversation about vaccination.

Highlights

Marissa Gold, a parenting expert, expresses the need for compassion and acknowledges her daughter's victimization due to a vaccine reaction.

David Epstein, a pediatric intensive care physician, discusses the importance of informed consent for vaccinations.

Gary Shlifer, an internal medicine physician, acknowledges the complexity of vaccine discussions and the need for micro-level analysis.

Bob Sears, a pediatrician, emphasizes the passion for encouraging full, informed consent regarding vaccinations.

Melissa Floyd, an informed consent advocate, stresses the importance of open conversation and understanding diverse opinions on vaccines.

The panelists share their personal vaccination histories, including Marisa's decision to vaccinate herself as an adult.

Marisa recounts her severe reaction to a vaccine, leading to arthritis, and her subsequent research into vaccine safety.

Gary Shlifer discusses the risks and benefits of vaccines, acknowledging their varying levels of protection.

Bob Sears points out that not getting vaccinated can endanger others, highlighting the concept of herd immunity.

The conversation touches on the rarity of anaphylactic shock compared to other vaccine reactions like seizures.

A panelist shares a personal story of their child's severe reaction to a vaccine, leading to a reevaluation of vaccination decisions.

The importance of medical exemptions for vaccines is discussed, along with the challenges of individualizing medical advice.

Trust in medical professionals is questioned, with parents advocating for their right to research and question medical advice.

A panelist shares a positive experience with a doctor's recommendation for a child's treatment, emphasizing the value of trust.

The conversation highlights the need for compassion in the vaccine debate, with calls for acknowledgment of personal experiences.

The panelists agree on the importance of doing what's right for children and the desire for a healthy, productive life.

The conversation concludes with a call for radical empathy and open dialogue in the discussion around vaccines.

Transcripts

I wish there was just more compassion. No, we don't want to make something difficult. We just want to be acknowledged

My daughter was a victim and she's being punished

Hi, my name is Marissa Gold

I am a parent

I have two girls, ten and thirteen and I'm also a parenting expert with my own parenting company 'Intuit Parenting'.

My name is David Epstein and I'm a pediatric intensive care physician.

I'm Gary Shlifer. I'm an internal medicine physician

I'm Bob Sears. I'm a pediatrician. I guess my greatest passion is just to help encourage a full complete informed consent for vaccinations.

I'm also Marissa.

By trade am a designer. I am also an activist and a mother

I'm Melissa Floyd and I would consider myself an informed consent advocate

I just want to make sure this conversation can be open for people and continue to inform people and to listen to everyone to understand

Why we each come to our opinion on this

The first statement is: I am vaccinated

So I actually wasn't fully vaccinated interestingly I grew up with two parents that were into alternative medicine

So I was not vaccinated as a child, but as I got older I vaccinated myself. Marisa: Well, I was

Vaccinated as a child

But my last vaccine was about 15 years ago when I returned to

college and I had a severe reaction and that I

became

arthritic in my hands. Went to many many doctors and

Nobody knew what was going on and why it was happening and just shocked like it doesn't make sense

You're too young to have arthritis and it wasn't until having kids and sort of digging into my own research for them

That a lot of answers started coming up and I think it's unfortunate that a lot of it is overlooked

For me and I'll continue to get vaccinated

regardless of

The risks because I've seen too many things on the other side

I've seen kids, you know come into the ICU and die from being, uh, getting the flu

I've always felt like the the risks are far outweighed by the benefits of getting the protection

Not getting vaccinated endangers other people

I Will acknowledge, of course as a pediatrician I know vaccines work. I know they give you protection

They vary greatly in what that protection is. It's not like 100% magical shield over you completely but I do acknowledge

there are some vaccines like the measles vaccine and the chickenpox vaccine, that honestly if you don't get those vaccines

Yeah, you do risk catching the disease and passing it to others. It's such a complicated topic

Vaccines and you're starting to get micro with each individual vaccine

and definitely the question was

Talking about the big picture and I think yeah

If you get micro, probably some of these vaccines I think when you're giving kids medication you have to get micro about it

I don't think it's doing your kids any service to

just say X things are all made the same and they're all safe and healthy good for you that everybody's

Benefiting from it because that's false it's not true

Well, we study them before we release them to the public we study them so we do know they're safe

That's the thing is we know. Safe-ish.

You know being an intensive us I see the worst of the worst and so seeing

The other side of kids who don't get vaccinated. I saw a kid walking in with meningococcemia

Which I haven't seen in decades. He had all four limbs cut off

They had to be amputated because it was all dead tissue. You forget how bad things were

before we had vaccines

I didn't step forward for that because I don't like the assumption that

If a child is unvaccinated somehow they are of risk to everyone and also knowing that

Vaccinated individuals can also be caring and spreading diseases

I think it's very polarizing to separate the two as if if you're vaccinated. You're totally fine. You're not risking

Anybody anything unvaccinated children don't just have diseases hanging out in their bodies waiting to unload at any moment

Anybody could be spreading diseases, especially things like polio and pertussis that are not completely covered by the vaccine.

I'd do anything to keep my child safe

I agree I don't have kids but when I think about it, you know

The idea with vaccines is you're protecting all of us you're protecting the group, you know

There's this idea of herd immunity. And so I think that's why it's really important to talk about because

This is an issue. That doesn't just affect you

It affects everyone around you because there's people that aren't vaccinated that are sick or have immune issues

Or they're too young to get a vaccine and they count on her immunity

I think most people too like I started out

Vaccinating my daughter because I believed all the same things that you said

it wasn't until she had a reaction and several reactions that I actually had to look at it differently where I

I realized by continuing vaccinating for her that actually would hurt her and yet everyone wants me to do it for the population

As if I'm supposed to continue to sacrifice my child for everyone else

well

I mean there are medical exemptions for for vaccines and if your child has a reaction and then there's some there's concern

I think that's valid but I think a larger population is using other

Justifications to not get the vaccines, you know a number of families who look into vaccines

they will decide to opt out of vaccines because they feel they are just not willing to

Risk the side effects, but the side effects are the side effects are like one in a million one in two million

whereas the side effects from the diseases when I see all these

outbreaks and things like I'm gonna choose vaccines every time and that's I think right there is the disservice to this conversation because

It is a risk benefit analysis. And what's unfortunate is how downplayed those risks are

I only started investigating vaccines because I ended up with a kid with an autoimmune disorder

So, what does that mean and instead of finding answers? I found more questions. The one in a million is not a real number

And so you're more that that is put out

Is it so people think that no, well not when you're talking about the different kind of reactions

I think the number you're referring to is anaphylactic shock that anaphylactic shock is of course extremely rare

Whereas you when you look at seizures from the MMR vaccine are one in 3,000

But again this creates fear in parents. Well we worry what we worry that you get those on your side kind of downplay those

so my daughter had seizures. Seizures for most people are considered kind of a big deal, you know when it happens to you that that

Downplayed element of well, that's not anaphylactic shock. It's just a seizure. It is just a seizure but seizures can be dangerous

I don't think it's an idea of downplay

I think it comes back to what we were saying with the risk benefit analysis

and I think the data is very clear that the

Benefits of giving vaccines by far outweigh the risks so I don't think it's a question of downplaying the risks. They're there

but we also know that children were dying and now they're not and yes, there's side effects, but they're not as bad as

what we had before vaccines

I don't always trust my doctor's opinion

Anytime anyone whether it's a teacher a friend something I read online my mom, you know my doctor anytime anyone tells me

Oh, you should do this

especially if it has to do with their health I'm going to do research and it's I would be

Careful about saying it's that I don't trust my doctor, but that has that trust has been developed over time

And so I would say in the early years when my children were very young when they would say this is what we recommend

Yes, of course

there were times where I got a second opinion or did the research on my own and asked the questions and I think that as

parents

We have to do that

well, it's hard to trust someone who sees your child for 10 minutes twice a year in the end parents know their children best and

That little office visit where your pediatrician looks at your child

He does not know your child the way you know your child, so it's really hard for whatever recommendation

He's making to be really based and individualized for your kid

So if you were to come to your doctor and say hey, my child's acting differently after this this well visit appointment

Something's wrong

You want them to trust that you have an established

Relationship and listen to you and hear you and understand that as a mother

Just because you don't have the dr in front of your name. It doesn't make your opinion somehow less valuable

yeah, I mean I think like anyone doctors are fallible and they don't know everything and I think it's very important like you're

Mentioning to have a really strong

Doctor-patient relationship. I think that's really hard in today's

ten-minute appointment age, you know makes it really difficult but like as a young doctor

I think there's a lot of distrust when it comes to physician

Recommendations it sucks because you know you spend decades

training and learning and your heart is in this place where you want to like be of service to people and then

You're not trusted but you know to answer the question

You shouldn't just blindly trust anyone's opinion your doctor or anyone. Ironically the doctors are the ones that- Well,

I trust my physicians

My daughter has epilepsy and in March she was also

diagnosed with juvenile idiopathic arthritis

I went to the rheumatologist and the rheumatologist said we're gonna put her on methotrexate and I looked at her I'm like methotrexate

That's a chemotherapy

Kimber therapeutic agent that you know kids with cancer again and she's like, yes

But we use it in a low dose and it doesn't cause harmful side effects. You have to trust me.

I said okay and

I trusted her

And I am so glad that I did before all this happened. She was a competitive gymnast and

She used to walk up and down the stairs. Like she was 90 years old. She couldn't hold a pencil in her hand now

she's back on the bars and back on the on the beam doing things which my wife and I

Never thought that she would do again. So yes, do I trust my physicians? Yes. Do I question them?

Yes, I will say look can we do this for her? Can we do this instead?

And yes, you know

I, I can appreciate what you guys have said as

far as people hearing you and I think that's the biggest problem in medicine is that

Time is short clinicians aren't listening and I think that as as a pediatrician

You know

one of the most important jobs

That we have is to listen to parents and I think that if any pediatrician isn't doing that, they're not doing their job

I don't like it I don't I want us to be able to talk I want us to be able to have

Relevant and educated conversations and I think at the core of this

conversation is

What is at the core of humanity and being a parent?

Which is that we all want to do right by our children and we want to lead happy healthy and productive lives

Yeah, I have no

doubts in my mind of how I've come to my decision making on the subject which has been

Tedious and thorough to say the least I did not expect to go down this path in my life

But I have people who won't be friends with me who I've had death threats on social media

I might not even be able to send my kids to school depending on how legislation changes because of the way I

think it just it's insane to me how hostile this has become and it's not doing a service to

Research and science moving forward and just the overall dialogues we have in our culture

whatever the subject what I think is lacking in this debate or conversation is really

Compassion from the pro vac side or pro mandate side. I'll say the people who

Refuse to acknowledge that vaccine reactions are happening or that the things that happened to my daughter were

Connected because maybe it was just a coincidence and I just needed something to pin it on you are socially isolated

You can be isolated by your family

isolated by the medical community

isolated by society as a whole because they assume you're

Unintelligent uneducated and irrational. I wish there was just more compassion that no

We don't want to make something difficult. We just want to be acknowledged

My daughter was a victim and she's being punished what I signed up for this it was a little bit of trepidation

Coming into this because you do hear things in the media

You know about the people who are anti vaccine and the way they respond to physicians and it is a little bit scary

you know as

Physicians we care about people there is compassion on on the medical community side

We wouldn't do this if we if we didn't care

but again, you know

I do have compassion for the families that have gone through issues with you know, with vaccines and

I have a great deal compassion for the families that had children die from preventable diseases

There shouldn't be any hostility. There should be discussion. I mean we can always question things

That's how we of all that's how we get better. If we didn't question anything we'd be still in the dark ages

Hey guys, I'm Kendra I'm Erin and we're from Jubilee media. Thank you so much for watching this episode of middle ground

We try to encourage radical empathy in our work

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