Arthur Brooks — The Pillars of Happiness | Prof G Conversations
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful conversation, Harvard professor Arthur Brooks delves into the complex relationship between money, happiness, and societal issues. He discusses the decline of happiness in the United States, attributing it to factors such as financial crises, social media, political polarization, and the COVID-19 pandemic. Brooks emphasizes the importance of faith, family, friendships, and meaningful work in fostering happiness. He also addresses the gender disparities in happiness and suggests that blurred gender roles may contribute to this disparity. Brooks advocates for a balanced approach to life, where love and relationships are prioritized to achieve true happiness.
Takeaways
- 💰 Money can buy happiness up to a point, but beyond that, it's how you spend it that matters.
- 😊 Happiness is a complex relationship with money; it's not just about the amount but the purpose behind spending.
- 📉 The overall state of happiness in the US has been in decline since the 1990s, with three major crises exacerbating the issue.
- 👫 Social connections, relationships, and a sense of community are crucial for happiness and well-being.
- 🧠 Neuropeptides like oxytocin, which promote bonding, are negatively affected by lack of in-person contact.
- 🚫 The misuse of social media and its impact on mental health, especially among young adults, has contributed to the decline in happiness.
- 🧘♂️ Transcendence, whether through religion, nature, or philosophy, helps to manage the 'psycho drama' of daily life and contributes to happiness.
- 🏋️♂️ Physical exercise is an effective way to manage negative emotions and maintain mental health, but it's not as effective for increasing happiness.
- 🍻 Substance use, such as alcohol and THC, can have varying effects on happiness and should be approached with an understanding of personal tendencies and risks.
- 💔 The decline in happiness among women may be linked to the blurring of traditional gender roles and the adoption of unhealthy work patterns.
- 👨👩👧👦 Modeling happiness and healthy relationships for children is one of the best ways to instill these values and increase their chances of future happiness.
Q & A
What is the current state of happiness in the US according to Arthur Brooks?
-The overall state of happiness in the US is in a secular decline since 1990, trading below where it was in 1990, and has experienced three crises that have pushed it down further.
What are the four factors that have been in decline since 1990 affecting happiness in the US?
-The four factors are a sense of faith or philosophy of life, relationships with family, close friendships, and a good relationship with work, which includes earning success and serving others.
What were the three crises that significantly impacted happiness in the US, according to Brooks?
-The three crises were the financial crisis of 2008-2009, political polarization from 2014-2016, and the COVID-19 pandemic.
How does the lack of physical contact, such as eye contact and touch, affect happiness?
-The lack of physical contact leads to a deficit of oxytocin, a neuropeptide that promotes bonding and is released during eye contact and touch, resulting in a decrease in happiness and an increase in problems like depression.
Which demographic groups have seen the greatest increases in self-harm and suicidality?
-The two groups are women between the ages of 15 and 25 and men between the ages of 50 and 65.
What is the role of social media in the decline of happiness among young women?
-Social media has contributed to the decline by driving young women apart from in-person relationships and replacing them with online interactions, which can lead to self-harm and suicidality.
How does faith or religion contribute to happiness, and can its benefits be obtained through other means?
-Faith provides a sense of transcendence, helping individuals look beyond their own concerns and connect with something larger than themselves. This can also be achieved through nature, stoicism, meditation, or other practices that promote a sense of awe and perspective.
What are the five things people can do with their money to buy happiness, and which one is least effective?
-People can buy stuff, buy time, buy experiences, give it away, and save it. Buying stuff is the least effective at providing long-term happiness.
What is the best way to use money to increase happiness, according to Brooks?
-The best ways to use money for happiness are to have experiences with loved ones, give it away to worthy causes, and save it for a secure future.
What is the most important factor in a successful marriage for long-term happiness?
-The most important factor is cultivating a deep, authentic friendship with one's spouse, which is based on high oxytocin levels and companionship.
How can parents instill happiness in their children?
-Parents can instill happiness by modeling it themselves, being serious about their life philosophy, family relationships, and engaging in work that serves others.
Outlines
💰 Money and Happiness: A Complex Relationship
The discussion begins with the idea that money can buy happiness, but only up to a certain point. It's noted that at low levels, money significantly reduces unhappiness by eliminating basic needs-related stress. However, beyond that, simply buying things doesn't increase happiness. The focus should be on how money is spent, such as investing in experiences, relationships, and causes. The state of happiness in the US is compared to a declining stock, affected by factors like a lack of faith, poor family relationships, superficial friendships, and unsatisfactory work life. The conversation also touches on the impact of social media, political polarization, and the COVID-19 pandemic on happiness levels, particularly among young adults.
🚨 The Happiness Crisis and Its Impact on Gender and Age Groups
The conversation delves into the happiness crisis, noting that happiness levels in the US have been declining since 1990 and have been further affected by three significant crises. The podcast host, Arthur Brooks, shares his expertise on happiness and strategies for a better life. The discussion highlights that young adults and middle-aged men and women are the most affected by this crisis, with increased rates of self-harm and suicidality. The impact of social media on young women and the 'deaths of despair' among middle-aged men are discussed, emphasizing the need for in-person connections and the role of oxytocin in bonding and happiness.
🧘♂️ Transcendence and the Role of Faith in Happiness
The conversation explores the benefits of faith and a sense of community in achieving happiness. Brooks, a Catholic, discusses the importance of transcending the self and finding meaning beyond personal concerns. He mentions that nature and societal expectations often focus on self-interest, which can lead to unhappiness. Faith, along with other practices like stoicism, meditation, and engaging with art, can help individuals look beyond their immediate concerns and find a sense of awe and purpose. The discussion also touches on the benefits of having a life philosophy and the importance of focusing on others to achieve happiness.
🏋️♂️ Fitness, Happiness, and the Management of Emotions
The role of fitness and exercise in managing negative emotions and promoting happiness is discussed. It's noted that while fitness is effective in managing unhappiness, it's not as impactful in increasing happiness. The conversation differentiates between positive and negative emotions, explaining their origins in different brain systems. The importance of managing negative emotions through exercise, meditation, and other practices is emphasized. Brooks shares his personal experience with fitness and its impact on his well-being, and the conversation touches on the balance between positive and negative affect in achieving happiness.
🥂 Substance Use and Its Impact on Happiness
The conversation addresses the use of substances like alcohol and THC in the context of happiness. Brooks shares his personal experiences and beliefs about the cost-benefit analysis of substance use. He emphasizes the importance of understanding one's own tendencies and family history of addiction. The discussion also highlights the importance of delaying the use of substances to reduce the likelihood of developing unhealthy patterns. Brooks and the podcast host, Scott Galloway, share their perspectives on the role of substances in their lives and the importance of moderation and self-awareness.
💔 The Pursuit of Happiness: Lessons from Personal Experiences
Brooks reflects on his past, discussing the impact of his work-centric lifestyle on his personal relationships and happiness. He shares his regrets about not prioritizing family and friendships earlier in life. The conversation emphasizes the importance of modeling happiness and good habits for children. Brooks also talks about his current efforts to maintain close relationships with his adult children and the lessons he would give to his younger self. The discussion concludes with a reflection on the societal pressures and incentives that drive individuals to prioritize professional success over personal happiness.
👨👩👧👦 Raising Happy Children: Parenting and Happiness
The conversation focuses on the practices and values that parents can instill in their children to increase their likelihood of happiness. Brooks emphasizes the importance of modeling happiness and good habits, as children learn more from what parents do than what they say. He discusses the significance of cultivating deep friendships, having a strong sense of life philosophy, and being passionate about work that serves others. The conversation also touches on the importance of maintaining good relationships with one's own parents and the impact this has on children's happiness.
🧗♂️ The Role of Gender Roles in Happiness
The conversation explores the impact of gender roles and societal expectations on happiness. Brooks discusses the differences in happiness levels between men and women and how these have changed over time. He suggests that the blurring of gender roles and the adoption of unhealthy work patterns by women have contributed to a convergence of happiness levels between genders. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding and embracing one's natural tendencies while also making conscious choices to prioritize love and relationships over work and material success.
🎓 Advice for Overachieving Young Adults
Brooks shares his advice for highly productive and overachieving young men and women, emphasizing the importance of love and relationships in achieving happiness. He references the Harvard study on adult development, which identifies love as the key factor in happiness and health in later life. Brooks advises against sacrificing love for other pursuits and encourages individuals to cultivate deep, meaningful relationships to lead a happier life.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Happiness
💡Money
💡Social Media
💡Relationships
💡Work
💡Mental Health
💡Addiction
💡Transcendence
💡Physical Exercise
💡Substance Use
💡Gender Roles
Highlights
Money can buy happiness, but it's a complex relationship.
At low levels, money significantly reduces unhappiness by eliminating basic needs concerns.
Above a certain threshold, money doesn't increase happiness; it depends on how you spend it.
Happiness in the US has been in secular decline since 1990, with three major crises exacerbating the issue.
The decline in happiness is linked to a decrease in faith, family relationships, friendships, and meaningful work.
The three crises that have significantly impacted happiness are the 2008 financial crisis, political polarization, and the COVID-19 pandemic.
Lack of social contact, especially eye contact and touch, has led to a decrease in oxytocin, contributing to unhappiness.
Young adults and middle-aged men have seen the greatest increases in self-harm and suicidality.
Social media has had a negative impact on young women's happiness, while middle-aged men face 'deaths of despair'.
Religion and a sense of community can provide shock absorbers against life's challenges.
Transcendence, whether through faith or other means, is crucial for happiness as it helps one look beyond personal concerns.
The four key components of happiness are faith, family, friends, and work that serves others.
Physical exercise is effective for managing negative emotions and unhappiness.
Substances like alcohol and THC can have a net positive or negative impact on happiness based on individual tendencies and usage patterns.
Economic security is a strong indicator of happiness, but it doesn't necessarily lead to greater happiness beyond a certain point.
In relationships, the goal should be companionate love, which is based on deep friendship.
Modeling happiness through one's own behavior is the best way to raise happy children.
Happiness is closely tied to love, and prioritizing love in life leads to greater happiness and health in the long term.
Gender roles and expectations can impact happiness, and it's important to understand and navigate these roles consciously.
The most important factor for long-term happiness and health is the presence of love in one's life.
Transcripts
money can buy you happiness and now it
tops out but money is a very strong
forward-looking indicator of your
happiness it's true so it's a
complicated relationship now at low
levels money absolutely lowers the
sources of unhappiness above those low
levels here's the point if you just buy
crap you're not going to get happier it
really depends what you do with your
money if you want to keep buying
[Music]
happiness Arthur where does this podcast
find you I am in my office at the
Harvard Business School I'm about to go
and give a lecture on happiness which is
the class I teach at
HPS nice so let's start there you're
known as an expert on happiness and
strategies for building a better life
how would you describe the overall state
of happiness in the US of happiness for
a stock where do you think it's trading
right now it's trading way way below
where it was in 1990 and it would have
fallen off the the out of the out of the
Industrial Average it um it's in crisis
is is the bottom line we've actually
seen kind of two things happen to
happiness as we measure it in the United
States over the past 30 years it's been
in kind of a a secular Decline and then
there have been three crises that have
pushed it down as well the secular
decline has to do with the fact that
that happiness rises in a population or
for individuals when people have more of
a sense of their faith or philosophy of
life whether it's secular or religious
when people have a better relationship
with their families when they have close
friendships real friends not deal
friends and and last but not least when
they have a good relationship with their
work which means earning their success
and serving other people and all those
four things have been in Decline since
about 1990 and that's been a secular
decline of Happiness then then there's
these three incredible storms that have
pushed happiness down in 2008 2009 a
major decrease in happiness started uh
particularly among young adults and I
thought at the time probably you and I
would have seen it the same way as as B
School guys that that it was the
financial crisis and people not being
able to find jobs you know com young
people coming out of school it wasn't
that was when everybody got social media
on their devices that turns out to have
been the catalytic event especially with
young adults and especially young women
to inflect happiness down the second was
political polarization 2014 2015 2016
where we were being encouraged by my
malignant narcissistic politicians that
we should hate people who disagree with
us which is the worst for the people who
are the haters even worse than the Hades
and then last but not least was Corona
which was you know hey everybody go home
and and you know work from by zoom and
and don't talk to your friends and good
luck to you have a nice day which
quadrupled the rates of of of depressive
symptoms which have not declined ever
since I mean isn't it if you try to
distill it down to one thing isn't it a
lack of contact the fact that we're
mammals and we're supposed to be bumping
off one another and whether it's facing
our screen or just not going into work
we just don't have as much contact with
one another yeah yeah yeah for sure it's
eye contact and touch so there's a
neuropeptide in the brain called
oxytocin most people know what it is
it's a it functions as a hormone and
it's it was evolved so that we would
bond to each other so that we would have
kin group so we wouldn't you know walk
the frozen tundra and die alone and so
it's intensely pleasurable and you only
get it from eye contact and touch and so
anything that actually pulls us apart so
we're not having in-person eye contact
and and and even worse that we're not
having physical touch is going to give
us a deficit of that and that's going to
lead to all the problems we see today
and if we start to begin to think about
Solutions well let's let's back up is it
especially Stark if you start to to
segment it by gender religious income
levels age where is it the problem worst
and least least bad so it's worst among
young adults is what we find so that the
two groups that actually have we've seen
the greatest increases in self harm you
know suicidality are are women between
the ages of 15 and 25 and Men our age
which is pretty interesting isn't it
it's so it's guys who are between about
the ages of 50 and 65 and women between
the ages of 15 and mid 20s are where you
actually see the highest rates of
suicidality the highest increases in
suicidality and and there are different
reasons for that number one is you find
that young women are they tend to
actually suffer the most from the
ravages of how social media has driven
them apart and become a substitute for
their inperson relationships when you
talk about men it has a lot more to do
with the fact that you know these are
deaths of Despair that we see so you see
more sosis of the liver more men outrage
getting addicted to opiates uh more men
outage actually killing themselves and
the rates of growth are double digit in
suicidality in that group so I'll put
forward a thesis and I I know you agree
with the first but I'm curious to
explore the latter and that is when we
look at when we look at girls um they
have uh in you know boys bully
physically and verbally girls bully
relationally we've put these nuclear
weapons in their hands they're
sexualized at a young age they are given
unreasonable expectations that they
place on themselves in terms of their
appearance and their success and and
then they have social media picking up
on algorithms that they're interested in
self harm and sending them pictures of
Nu's bills and razors I I see a Blu line
path or it's fairly clear to me what's
going on there the people our age I'll
put forward a thesis I'm not as clear
but I read this article about the path
to Suicide for men our age and it goes
something like this or one of the
broadest paths a man loses his job or
has some sort of Mental Health crisis is
no longer viewed as a provider by a
spouse spouse divorces and 70% of
divorces people our age are initiated by
the woman loses his income his primary
relationship and access to his kids all
at the same time and also the Mental
Health Community is I think it's like
90% now of of the therapists or women
don't have a strong friend Network don't
have therapists who can relate to the
unique problems that a man faces and
makes not a mental health or it doesn't
have a mental health breakdown but makes
a rational decision to kill himself your
thoughts yeah that's a that's that's
very adroit Scott I mean the most self
harm follows or most suicides uh follow
more or less the same structure which is
they start with a mood disorder so a
clinical mood disorder which is to say
you're above the bar on clinical
depression or general and or generalized
anxiety which are cousins mental in in
terms of mental health now to be sure
those are dials not switches part of the
problem with the mental health
profession is you go to a a therapist
and they say you have depression well
guess what Scott we all have depression
the question is how high is the dial
turned and if it goes above a particular
threshold such that is clinically
designated then you actually need
treatment anyway so people who are above
that clinical designation then like most
there's about a 95% undertreatment rate
for these mood disorders and most guys
our AG self treat and how do they self
treat with drugs and alcohol they self
treat with drugs and alcohol plus other
really delerious things for your brain
like pornography which is horrible for
the brain all these things that will
actually in increase the the the
neurotransmitter activity that's
involved with addiction Etc it basically
is brain capture gambling whatever it
happens to be and then on top of that so
you've got a mental illness problem you
have self a very messy and and bad self-
treatment issue and then you have a
setback and the setback is what you know
something happens you lose your job your
wife leaves you uh you you know
something happens to one of your kids
and and you just you can't handle the
setback because life is full of setbacks
man I mean life is full of crises life
is full of problems and what do you need
to deal with your problems you need
people around you who love you you need
a support structure you need a religion
you need a a spouse you need kids you
need a family when all that stuff is
gone and by the way the only coping me
mechanism that you have is you know
internet porn and a 12pack of beer
that's not going to solve the problem on
the contrary it's going to make it worse
so it's that's I just basically
summarized what you said in slightly
different
terms one of the reasons I wanted to
speak to you is that religion plays a
big role in your life yeah and it plays
it plays none in mine and I was just
curious and it makes a lot of sense to
me that you need those shock absorbers
friendships or a belief that you're
playing a part in something bigger than
yourself which I think religion a sense
of community provides all of those
things
can you walk us through the benefits of
Faith specifically if you're explaining
those benefits to those of us who are
atheists yeah for sure so um I'm a
Catholic most important thing in my life
and that the metaphysics of the
rightness of Catholicism or I don't know
man I don't know it's above my I'm not a
priest it's above my I'm not a
theologian but as a social scientist the
important thing about about um faith is
actually the Transcendence that it
brings which you can also get many other
ways here's the point nature mother
nature who does not care if we're happy
Mother Nature really only cares about
two things which is procreation and
survival that's really Mother Nature's
imperatives for you happy that's your
business and the mother nature gives you
uh a real imperative to focus on
yourself all the time that's called the
Psycho Drama that's what most you know
in in the in the social science
literature that I i' swim around in the
Psycho Drama is my job and my lunch and
my commute and my students and my money
and my sandwich and and it's just it's
like watching the same episode of Better
Call Saul every single day by force and
it's incredibly tedious and terrible
that Psycho Drama will drive you almost
literally mad and the only way to get
beyond the Psycho Drama is to transcend
it you need to look at something bigger
than yourself there's a lot of ways to
do it you know you and I both know Ryan
holiday who's a good dude and what he's
done is he's actually introduced
millions of people to stoicism which
what it does is it gives you a sense of
transcendence you you play a smaller
piece it becomes instead of the M self
looking in the mirror is the I self
where I can actually observe the world
and take some sense of awe in it some
people like to walk in nature without
devices I love to analyze the fugues of
Johan Sebastian Bach some people engage
in a Vasa a meditation practice some
people like me go to mass the point is
man you got to zoom out because if you
don't zoom out you will be zoomed in and
you'll be miserable all the time that's
why you need a sense of life's
philosophy and something that will put
you in proper perspective which is
little you need to as they used to say
as Steve Martin used to say you got to
get small man you got to get small do
you think I'm trying to move to
Solutions here and I I I like the way
you framed it I think of the more time I
spend just focusing on my own and
looking at myself
constantly the more susceptible I become
to a shock and for me having kids was
really became a bit of a shock absorber
CU for the first time I was thinking
about other things more than myself and
so quite frankly I just had less time to
be hard on myself or think about my
shortcomings because I was focused on
something other than me do you think
that for example what outside of
religion like national service nonprofit
volunteer work what else can serve that
role or fill that hole like religion
does yeah relationships are key so you
find that the happiest people they
engage in faith or philosophy family
life real friendship and work that
serves other people those are the big
four faith family friends and work are
the big four what do they all have in
common they're about other people
they're about love of the Divine or love
of your family or love of your friends
or love for everybody is expressed
through your work and and you know
that's probably I mean you and I have we
were engaged in public education that's
what we do you know we have our our our
University students but then we have the
general public that we're dedicated to
educating and and your work makes you
miserable when you're thinking about
your own career and it makes you
intensely happy when you realize you're
doing something something good for a lot
of other people when people say you know
what's the best way to get rid of
loneliness the answer is go find a
lonely person and give them relief
that's the single best way for you to be
less lonely if you want to be less
depressed and you feel isolated go do
something for somebody because you
actually will go from me to i s it's all
about other people talk about the role
that Fitness plays in happiness or
exercise yeah so that's an interesting
one because that's really important I
know to you and really really important
to me as well I'm a I'm a I've been a
gym at for 30 years um and and for the
longest time I noticed that it was is
tremendously important for my well-being
my well-being in general but well-being
is you know subjective well-being Which
social scientists have been talking
about for a long time is is too blunt a
concept because it mixes two things that
are actually occurring largely in
different hemispheres of the brain
positive and negative affect positive
and negative mood which are separable
because they're actually induced by
activity in different parts of the lyic
system of the brain you need need
negative emotions fear anger sadness and
disgust to protect you from threats and
give you aversive Sensations all
emotions are are data all they are are
information so you know what's going on
and you know how to react to it your
positive emotions they give you approach
motives it's like I Joy interest these
are the things that make me want to go
do something now people talk about good
and bad feelings they're completely
wrong there's no such thing as good and
bad feelings there's positive and
negative emotions largely emanating from
different hemispheres of the brain now
the reason that that's really important
is because when we mix them together and
call it subjective well-being you're
kind of mixing things that don't mix
very well what we find is once we
separate those things that we have
different stimuli that will either raise
your levels of happiness Visa your
positive effect or manage your levels of
negative effect your unhappiness fitness
and health are very good techniques for
managing your unhappiness they're not
very good for raising your happiness and
that's a super important thing I mean I
have these tests that I give people
about whether they have really high or
low levels of positive and negative AFF
you know I've been you know it's like
you and I are just meeting but I've been
I know who you are I've been seeing you
for years and years and years and you
have a classic mad scientist profile of
an entrepreneur very high positive
effect and very high negative effect
you're a high affect guy super engaged
super high energy but that means that
you got to do two things you got to make
sure that you keep that high positive
affect but you got to make manage that
high negative effect or you'll go you
you'll make everybody around you nuts I
mean you you'll drive your spouse off
you'll make your employees insane if you
don't do that and the single best way to
manage negative affect not to get rid of
it because you'll die you'll get chased
down by a tiger and get killed you want
to manage it to manageable levels is
physical exercise now another way to do
it of course is meditation and so I
recommend to all of my students who are
mad scientists like Scott Galloway and
and Arthur Brooks by the way is to get
up before Dawn no coffee no stimulants
because you'll all you be doing is
pouring stimulants on top of unusually
high cortisol levels that are spiking at
that point go beat yourself up I mean
beat yourself up for 60 minutes in the
gym man I'm talking lifting because
there's no substitute for Lifting for
the for the hormonal impacts that it
have and then work on your spirit
whether that's your meditation or your
analyzing Bach or doing your wisdom
reading or going to church and then 2
hours after you get up have your coffee
and then you'll have a maximum period of
dopamine you'll be managing your
negative effect and you'll have a much
better
day we'll be right
back so you talked about caffeine and
I'll use this as a segue into I try to
be as I try to be as transparent as
possible with with my listeners and I'm
finally in a position of Economic
Security where I'm not too worried about
being canceled at least economically I
love alcohol um and I love substances I
drink I used to drink four or five times
a week now recognizing my liver just
can't handle that I drink two to three
times a week and I think it's been a net
positive in my life and I also uh take
Edibles probably two or three times a
week I love THC and I I used a lot of it
when I was young I gave it up when I was
working all the time but I I it maybe
this is the symptom of of of an abuser
but I've talked myself into believing it
it's actually enhanced my happiness has
have you thought about a construct
through which to look at substances in
terms of because I don't just buy I find
it's very reductive to go Nancy Reagan
and say just say no and they're all bad
all the time I just don't buy that have
you thought about a lens through which
to look at substances in terms of
managing your own happiness it's a cost
benefit question is what it comes down
to and so the whole idea of being very
Arch on this is not appropriate and and
the cost benefit differs for different
people I don't use any substances
because I have a lot of addiction in my
family and you know recogniz nothing no
alcohol not a glass of wine no nothing
nothing I have I I drank very heavily
through my 20s and 30s I was a musician
all the way through my 20s I was a
professional classical musician until I
was in my early 30s and then all the way
through graduate school getting my PhD
and becoming a social scientist I kind
of kept being a musician with respect to
my habits and by the time I was 38 years
old I saw the writing on the wall I was
going to go the direction of the rest of
my family and so I needed to stop that
doesn't mean Scott Galloway needs to
stop you need to know yourself remember
the Oracle at Deli know thyself it's
very important and and if you don't then
you'll be following somebody else's
pattern and somebody who has ATT
tendency toward alcohol abuse can ruin
their life or somebody who actually
could get some positive benefit for
their relationships and just just
entertainment will be missing that so
one of the things that I talk about is
family tendency is that is the you know
there's a whole series of very
interesting behavioral experiments so
you can find for example that if it's
easy for you to stop with two drinks you
probably don't need to if it's hard for
you to stop at two drinks you should
probably not be drinking and that has
everything to do with just your general
proclivities toward um toward the the
addiction that comes s the dopamine
Pathways the other thing it's really
worth pointing out Scott is that people
can enjoy substances a lot more the
longer that they wait to use them and
the reason is because of the pathways
that we lay down in the brain when your
brain is highly plastic and you're
drinking at 14 you're much likely to be
an alcohol abuser when you're 28 and 38
then if you actually don't start until
your brain is less plastic and so the
key thing for parents listening to us
don't waste your time trying to tell
your kids never never never don't don't
ever try pot don't ever try alcohol
you'll die if you do just delay as long
as you possibly can and they're far more
likely the longer you delay to develop
healthy patterns and you know life
affirming patterns as opposed to having
to you know quit and go through a whole
lot of crises later on in life we both
teach it a business school and I I've
you know the notion that money can't buy
you happiness I found that that's
something we tell ourselves to feel more
comfortable with a society where in fact
and again this is a thesis that money
can buy you happiness and now it tops
out but my understanding is it tops out
at a pretty high level and billionaires
are no happier than millionaires but
they're no less happy either at least
the research I've seen and that Economic
Security is just and again it's it it's
not a good thing I'm not saying it's the
way it should be but it is but money is
a very strong forward-looking indicator
of your happiness what are your thoughts
yeah it's true so it's a complicated
relationship now at low levels money
absolutely lowers the sources of
unhappiness unambiguously that you can
eliminate the sources of everywhere
absolutely I mean if you if you're not
meeting your caloric needs if you're not
getting adequate health care if you
don't know if you're going to be able to
pay your rent it's horrible for your un
not your happiness your unhappiness that
will raise your stress levels you'll
have chronic you know a cortisol drip
right into your brain you won't be able
to function properly or even or even
focus so that's at low levels but that's
really low levels on top of that the
biggest problem that people make I mean
I remember when I was poor I mean I was
living in New York City uh I was a
French horn player I didn't go to the
dentist for six years from when I was 19
until I was 25 years old because I
didn't have the money and then when I
was 25 I went to the dentist cuz I
finally had the money I joined an
orchestra in Barcelona and I was making
a living and I went to the and I felt a
lot better cuz I had like 12 cavities I
needed to get filled and I mistake of
course I I will I will admit that during
that time I never went a day without
cigarettes so I guess probably it was
you know priorities at that point but
you know at 25 when I got I went to the
dentist I figured out that I felt a lot
better and I concluded money really does
BU happiness no it was eliminating my my
avoidable sources of unhappiness above
those low levels here's the point if you
just buy crap you're not going to get
happier it really depends what you do
with your money if you want to keep
buying happiness so there's five things
you can do with your money and anybody
can do with their money no matter how
much money that they have they can buy
stuff they can buy time they can buy
experiences they can give it away and
they can save it those are the five
things that people can do the one thing
at relatively high levels that money
doesn't give you very much happiness at
all much more than kind of a fleeting
Thrill Is buying stuff what will bring
you authentic happiness is experiences
with people that you love time not to
Fritter away on social media but to
spend with people that you love giving
it away to causes that you think are
highly
meritorious and saving your money it
turns out that saving your money has a
lot of huge benefits for people it makes
them feel secure about their future it
makes them feel good about you know what
they're going to leave to their kids or
causes and all kinds of stuff so I mean
there's a limit on that too obviously
but those it depends on how you spend it
you can buy happiness for sure so you're
coaching two people about to get married
and they come to you and they say
Professor you understand happiness talk
about happiness through the frame of a
relationship what are the best practices
when you approach a relationship that
not only increase the likelihood of your
own happiness but of your partners the
the key thing is number one what what is
the goal of the marriage and the goal is
not permanent passion it's what we call
in my business companion at love which
as my kids remind me does not sound hot
but it's the best thing ever it's best
friendship that's the goal the reason
that people will date and be just madly
in love and then find after two years
that they hate each other is because
they actually never got to Friendship
when the the neurochemical tide receded
there was nothing left on the beach and
and that meant there was no friendship
left here's the point so when you when
you the the falling in love has a has a
the process of falling in love with
somebody has a very uh important
chemical footprint neurochemical
footprint it starts off with the sex
hormones of estrogen and testosterone
where where that's where attraction
starts that's that's ignition the second
part is where we have that the sense of
euphoria and anticipation in falling in
love and those are two neurochemicals
that you know dopamine which gives you
anticipation of a reward which is why
the the signature of falling in love
looks an awful lot like the early stages
of of a methamphetamine addiction
because of the because of the dopamine
the noradrenaline or norepinephrine in
your system gives you the sense of
euphoria when you're talking to that
particular person the third step is
infatuation and infatuation is where
you're really neurally imprinting on
another person because you can't stop
ruminating on the person so rumination
involves a drop in serotonin levels
that's the reason that people who are
clinically depressed they will have
they'll they'll take drugs to enhance
their serotonin levels or the re-uptake
of the serotonin in their brain is
because they want to ruminate less the
problem is that when you're falling in
love with somebody you need to ruminate
on the person that's the same thing that
creative people do when they're doing a
business plan is they can't stop
thinking about it you know when you and
I are doing a thing for work like I'm
writing a book or we're putting together
a company all the stuff that we do and
you can't sleep and the reason is
because you're ruminating in the same
way that you would be depressively
ruminating or when you're in love infat
infatuated with the other person then
last but not least is when the oxytocin
really bonds you to the other person
permanently that's where you want to
wind up in your relationship and so you
need to cultivate true deep friendship
with the other person by about 5 years
in if you have that best friendship that
actually comes from the high oxytocin
levels it does it's I mean you you got
all the other stuff has to go away or
you'll lose your mind and hate your life
I mean if you're basically completely
infatuated with the other person you'll
be so stressed out you won't even be
able to work you need that to stop you
need your serotonin levels to come back
but you need your oxytocin levels to
stay high the goal of that is you don't
need to go get you know like a PhD in
Neuroscience what you need to work on is
making sure that that you are
cultivating a deep a real authentic
profound even metaphysical friendship
with the other
person and as a parent if you want to
raise kids that are just generally more
likely to be happy are there practices
or behaviors or values you can instill
or try to instill as a parent that
increase the likelihood they will be I
don't want to say likelihood that they
will be happy because there's so many
things that go into that but give them a
better maybe a better toolkit yeah it's
all about modeling is it doesn't matter
what you say there's nothing in
parenting that matters what you say you
know I've done this work on what what
what's what's the biggest likelihood
that your kids will grow up and practice
your religion you know if you're Jewish
and it's important to you and you want
your kids to grow up and be Jewish
Christian Muslim whatever it happens to
be and it turns out that the number one
predictor of your kids growing up and
practicing your religion is seeing their
father practice the religion it does not
matter it's a lot less the mother
weirdly and the reason for this is that
the physically most impos closing human
being um in a child's life is us is
often in conventional families at least
the father and when I was a kid I
wondered if my dad could lift the house
I mean because he was huge I mean he
seemed huge to me and and my dad I mean
he bent the knee to no man but he was on
his knees on Sunday and as a little dude
that had a huge impact on me it's like
something's bigger than Dad so so my
point is not the religious point my
point is the modeling Point put your own
oxygen mask first you have to have good
happiness hygiene in your life so your
kids can witness it that's the most
important thing and that means that
you're serious about your your sense of
Life philosophy that you're serious
about your family relationships that
their your kids see you with a
relationship with your own parents for
example that you have real friendships
really deep friendships that you're
engaged in with your work that you're
passionate about it because you're
serving other people and creating
authentic value with your life and value
in the lives of other people and that's
the best thing you can possibly do for
raising Happy Kids frankly I mean I can
talk all day long about you know
conflict in families you know 11% of
people our age are not speaking to at
least one of their adult kids which is
insanity and I know the reason why that
happens we can we can talk about how to
make sure that doesn't happen but if you
want him to actually be happier you got
to model
happiness and so it sounds like I mean
you started off as a musician you ended
up at HPS it's a pretty unusual path
what advice would you give to your
younger self around trying to get to a
position of Happiness um more quickly um
I would have I would have cultivated my
my my family relationships and
friendships more um I mean Scott I was a
CEO for a long time too so there's a lot
between the French horn and HBS I was
actually a professor for a while doing
really conventional I was doing genetic
algorithm stuff early AI stuff and
applying it to public policy then I was
a CEO of a big think tank in Washington
DC for 11 years of a place called The
American Enterprise Institute and and I
was doing that job and it was a big job
man I had to raise $50 million a year I
was on the road all the time giving 175
speeches a year and I was all about work
I was working 80 hours a week for a long
time I I spent the 14th hour at the
office instead of the first hour with my
kids many times and those little
ingrates they got their revenge on me
man they grew up you know and and now I
look back and I'm a grandfather now so
you know um and I'm not screwing it up
anymore I talk to all my adult kids and
uh every day now on FaceTime whether
they want it or not they're going to be
hearing from dad because and I'm not
going to screw it up with my grandkids
but that's the greatest thing I mean
there were days when um I neglected my
marriage I my parents died and I didn't
know them very well um they died young I
mean they died young there's you know
there's you know issues with their
health but I they were interesting
people my mother was an artist my father
was a brilliant mathematician I was
thought God gosh what interesting people
but I was doing my thing and I was
running around and so the ambition got
in the way of my life in a way and I I
like the results but I it was a it was a
a sacrifice that was too great actually
for my own happiness so if I'm giving
myself success advice in World Libra
Awards is different than giving myself
happiness advice and and at this point I
took the choice to be special too many
times over being happy and I regret some
of that I think um I feel the same way
but I wonder if you're being a little
bit hard on yourself cuz every piece of
stimulus and incentive out there as a
man is to be a baller professionally and
everything else will fall into place and
so I think the incentives are you know
every every piece of external stimuli is
telling you that you have to be
successful and if you aren't you're
going to regret that more than
anything but I never forgave my father
for not being around I still have
struggles with it I mean it sounds like
you've you have a good relationship with
your adult children
now what about I like this idea of
repair what about the dad who
understandably in his 20s and 30s wasn't
there as much for his spouse and his
kids because he was just really focused
on economic security I I I'm grateful I
didn't have kids when I was young
because I did nothing but work that was
my identity I was worried I was always
worried about being broke yeah and and
kids wouldn't have changed that I just
wouldn't have been around yeah but any
thoughts on SC because you know I had my
kids and in my in my 30s and and uh and
and I was working all the time because I
was just look here's the thing with my
students which is to say me and you too
we're intensely afraid of failure that's
our death fear so everybody has a death
fear only 20% of humans are actually
morbidly afraid of physically dying but
we all have a death fear which is the
end of our sense of self if you define
yourself in terms of your work you're
going to be intensely afraid of failing
Prof professionally and that's what I am
and that's what you are and that's what
we're going to take to the Grave unless
we manage it unless we're we're open and
we're we we articulate that particular
fear to ourselves and the people who
love us the most to say look I I know
I'm strong I know I'm successful I've
been very fortunate that things have
really gone my way professionally in
four different careers fantastic and so
people say like you must be the happiest
guy in the planet it's like no I'm I got
I got something chasing me you don't
understand you know when you're Chas
something chasing you you can run
really fast and and and it can look like
you're running a race but you're
basically kind of you have this this
ghost actually and and so the point is
that when I've talked to you know my my
own family and my adult kids about this
you know I have a Frank conversation
about it I say look that was not a good
impetus and so the result is that that's
been my own process of knowing myself
and the reason that I teach happiness
right now is because Scott I want it you
know it's not because I'm you know I
don't have natural athletic abilities in
in in you know the sport of Happiness
it's because I don't quite frankly and
so studying it as a scholar has been
really the secret to giving my own self
a better life and you know the truth is
I measure it carefully with my students
and my own happiness is up 60% in the
past 5 years since I've dedicated myself
to it and that's what I'm going to do
for the rest of my life so last question
I appreciate you've been very generous
with your
time what have you given any thought to
the Notions of masculinity and
femininity and gender roles embracing
them modulating them
redefining them the role that plays in
happiness yeah I I I have to a certain
extent because you find that there are
are are pretty pretty substantial gender
differences that you see in the
literature um and I'll give you an
example of that I've looked for the
longest time asking who's happier men or
women and forever the answer was women
you know you find that married women are
happier than married men that single
women are happier than single men that
widowed women are way happier than
widowed men right I told that one to my
wife and she's like huh you know but
this weird thing happen Scott over the
past 15 years which is that the the Gap
has closed and the Gap has not closed
because men have gotten happier it's
because women have gone down to the
unhappiness level of men and the reason
for that is because probably I mean we
can speculate on this but this is not
something that Scholars are likely to
touch for the obvious reasons of
self-preservation that that gender roles
have been blurred to the point that
women are working and in the in the same
much the same way with many of the same
unhealthy work patterns that men are and
it's not good for happiness under the
circumstances so one of the things that
I recommend is that you know men
understand what their proclivities are
and embrace them when appropriate and
fight against them as is appropriate as
well you know the truth is that you will
just I mean you left your devices as a
man you will think because Mother Nature
is telling you that nobody's going to
love you unless you bring in a freaking
gazelle every day bring in the gazelle
and if you drag in the gazelle then your
spouse will continue to love you and
your kids will continue to respect you
yet for another day and then you go get
another gazelle but that's not right
that's a that's an evolutionary
anachronism that is not correct they
love you and they want more of you how
many times do I talk to men our age and
they have the same argument with their
wife over and over and over again where
their wife is like are you on the road
again and it's like yeah you complain
about me not being here but you sure
love what all of this work brings you
and I noticed that you use this money
and the wife is like I'm spending the
money because I got nothing else to do I
would take less money if I had more of
you and that argument goes on and on and
on and on and it's what I recommend of
men in particular who are stuck in this
Vortex of incentives from Mother Nature
is to remember that you can take that
animal path or you can you can choose a
Divine path and if you're an atheist
that's the truly human prefrontal cortex
path where you're not a prisoner of your
lyic system your prefrontal cortex the
sea Suite of your brain can make the
decision to go against those
proclivities and you can be happier one
quick last question uh we both are
around a large cohort of what I'll call
highly productive overachieving young
men and women if you could tell them
this is the behavior I need you to do
less of or more of what would those one
or two things be there's really one big
one which actually comes from the
Harvard study of adult development and
that's the longest running longitudinal
study on happiness and health in the
United States that started with guys at
Harvard in the late 1930s and then it
matched it up with a cohort of guys who
didn't go to college and then it wrapped
in their spouses and then it wrapped in
their kids so it's very demographically
representative at this point and it's 85
years in it looks at as people who are
happy and healthy when they're older
what did they do differently than the
ones who are not happy and healthy when
they got older and it comes down to one
thing Scott happiness is love that's the
one thing big thing greatest opening
line of any academic study it's
Happiness Is Love full stop full stop
that's from George Valiant who ran it
for for 30 years that the guy who took
it over is Bob waldinger at the Harvard
Medical School wonderful guy really
worth having on the show as a matter of
fact he wrote The Good Life which was a
big bestseller they keep getting best
sellers out of these data but it comes
down to this unipolar idea which is that
when you're doing something instead of
love you're doing it wrong I mean when
you're basically when you're
systematically substituting for love in
your life it's a problem when you're
complimenting the love in your life when
you're doing something that's a
compliment to your love relationships
you're doing it right but if when I what
I tell my students is that if you're
lonely you're doing it wrong that if
you're making sacrifices with respect to
your marriage and and and having
children informing your family you're
doing it wrong and you don't have to do
it that way and you're going to regret
it because you're not going to have as
happy have as much love in your life as
you want and need and deserve Arthur
Brooks is the Parker Gilbert Montgomery
professor of the practice of public and
nonprofit leadership at the Harvard
Kennedy School and professor of
management practice at the Harvard
Business School where he teaches courses
on leadership happiness and social
entrepreneurship he's also a columnist
at the Atlantic where he writes a
popular weekly how to build a life
column and is the author of 13 books
including the 2023 number one New York
Times bestseller build the life you want
the Art and Science of getting happier
with co-author Oprah Winfrey he joins us
from his office at Harvard uh Professor
Brooks love this stuff and I you just
have such a facility you just break it
down so well such that it resonates with
people and I think you're in the seat
you should be in I think it's good for
good for you good for your students good
for the planet we really appreciate your
time thank you Scott and thank you for
what you're doing you've enriched my
life a lot um not only given me a lot of
great entertainment but a lot of
incredible ideas you've used your
platform as a public intellectual for
public good and um I've been the
beneficiary of that so thank
you
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