How I Manage My Time - The System That Changed My Life

Summary

In this productivity-focused video, the host addresses the common struggle of feeling overwhelmed by endless to-do lists and the misconception that time management is the key issue. Instead, they argue that energy management is crucial and introduces the concept of an 'Energy Investment Portfolio'—a method to categorize tasks into active and passive investments to optimize energy allocation. The video suggests capping active projects to avoid burnout and emphasizes the importance of embracing the finite nature of time and energy, aligning efforts with what truly matters.

Takeaways

• 😀 The video discusses overcoming the feeling of overwhelm in productivity by focusing on energy management rather than time management.
• 📈 The concept of an 'energy investment portfolio' is introduced as a method to manage energy by categorizing tasks and projects.
• 📋 The portfolio consists of a bucket list, active investments, passive income, and completed projects, helping to visually organize and prioritize tasks.
• 🎯 Active investments are tasks that require ongoing energy and attention, while passive income tasks are on autopilot or delegated to others.
• 🏋️‍♂️ The video emphasizes the importance of capping the number of active investments to avoid burnout, suggesting a range of three to seven projects.
• 🧠 It draws a parallel between investing money and investing energy, aiming for projects that compound and grow over time.
• 🌟 The idea of having 'something to look forward to' is highlighted as a key to happiness, with trips and experiences serving as examples.
• 🔗 The video mentions a Skillshare class on using Notion for productivity, sponsored content that ties into the energy investment portfolio concept.
• ⏰ The script points out that the number of active projects one can manage is similar to the cognitive limit on working memory, often around five plus or minus two.
• 🚫 The presenter expresses a preference for broad project goals over SMART goals, valuing flexibility and enjoyment over strict specificity.

Q & A

What is the main issue discussed in the video regarding time management?

The main issue discussed is not the lack of time, but the feeling of overwhelm due to an endless list of things one wants to do and the difficulty in managing energy to accomplish them.

What does the speaker suggest as a solution to the problem of overwhelm?

The speaker suggests finding ways to make the activities more energizing and managing one's energy through the concept of an 'energy investment portfolio'.

What is an 'energy investment portfolio' as described in the video?

An 'energy investment portfolio' is a method of managing energy by categorizing tasks into active investments, passive income, and completed projects, similar to managing a financial portfolio.

How does the speaker use the term 'active investments' in the context of the energy investment portfolio?

The speaker uses 'active investments' to refer to projects or tasks that require ongoing personal effort and energy, such as organizing singing lessons or podcast episodes.

What does the 'passive income' column in the energy investment portfolio represent?

The 'passive income' column represents projects that are on autopilot or are being managed by someone else, requiring less active energy from the individual, such as going to the gym with a personal trainer.

Why does the speaker believe it's important to limit the number of active investments?

The speaker believes it's important to limit the number of active investments to avoid overwhelm and burnout, and to ensure that each project receives adequate attention and energy.

What is the suggested number of active projects one should have according to the speaker?

The speaker suggests that the number of active projects should be capped at around five plus or minus two, which aligns with the human working memory capacity.

How does the speaker use the energy investment portfolio to manage personal and work life?

The speaker uses separate energy investment portfolios for personal and work life, tracking active investments and ensuring a balance that prevents burnout and maintains productivity.

What is the significance of the 'completed' column in the energy investment portfolio?

The 'completed' column serves as a record of projects that have been successfully finished, providing a sense of accomplishment and helping to reallocate energy to new projects.

How does the speaker feel about the SMART goal setting approach?

The speaker does not resonate with the SMART goal setting approach, preferring a more flexible and less rigid system that does not detract from the enjoyment of working on projects.

What is the main takeaway from the video in terms of productivity and time management?

The main takeaway is embracing the finite nature of time and energy, focusing on managing energy effectively through an energy investment portfolio, and prioritizing a sustainable and enjoyable approach to productivity.

Outlines

00:00

🔋 Overcoming Overwhelm with Energy Management

The speaker introduces the concept of managing energy rather than time, highlighting the common issue of feeling overwhelmed by an endless to-do list. They propose that the real challenge is not the scarcity of time but the lack of energy. To address this, they suggest making activities more energizing and introduce the 'energy investment portfolio,' a method to organize and manage one's energy towards various projects and tasks. The speaker shares their personal experience with feeling overwhelmed and how reframing tasks as energy investments can help in managing energy more effectively.

05:01

📈 The Energy Investment Portfolio: A New Approach to Task Management

The speaker elaborates on the 'energy investment portfolio,' a system that categorizes tasks into active investments, passive income, and completed projects. They use the analogy of financial investments to explain how one should actively invest energy in a limited number of projects to avoid burnout and maximize productivity. The speaker shares their personal setup in the Notion app, which includes a bucket list, active projects, passive projects, and completed tasks. They emphasize the importance of limiting active projects to a manageable number, drawing a parallel to the cognitive limit of working memory, which is approximately five to seven items.

10:02

🌟 Balancing Active and Passive Projects for Optimal Energy Use

The speaker discusses the importance of balancing active and passive projects to maintain energy levels and prevent burnout. They explain that active projects require consistent energy investment, while passive projects are those that are on autopilot or managed by others. The speaker shares personal examples, such as singing lessons and podcasting as active investments, and gyming and finding a new place to live as passive investments. They also touch on the idea that the number of active projects one can handle is similar to the cognitive limit of working memory, suggesting that most people can effectively manage between three to seven active projects at a time.

15:03

💭 Embracing Finitude and the Philosophy of Time Management

The speaker concludes by advocating for the acceptance of our finite time and energy, referencing Oliver Burkman's book '4000 Weeks.' They argue against the unrealistic narrative of being able to do everything efficiently and instead promote a more realistic approach to time management that acknowledges limitations. The speaker shares their personal philosophy of focusing on a few key active investments and enjoying the journey without the pressure of excessive productivity. They also mention their own struggles with tasks like replying to messages promptly, demonstrating that even productivity experts have limitations and must prioritize their energy wisely.

Keywords

💡Productivity

Productivity in the context of the video refers to the efficiency with which individuals can accomplish tasks and goals that matter to them. It is central to the theme as the video discusses methods and strategies to enhance one's ability to do more of what they value. The speaker shares their struggle with feeling overwhelmed by an endless list of tasks and suggests that managing energy, rather than time, is the key to improving productivity.

💡Overwhelm

Overwhelm is described as the feeling of being excessively burdened or confused by the multitude of tasks one has to accomplish. In the video, the speaker identifies this as a common problem that leads to doing very few things or taking on too much, resulting in a lack of time and energy. It is contrasted with the concept of managing energy effectively to combat this feeling.

💡Energy Investment Portfolio

This is a concept introduced by the speaker as a method for managing one's energy and focus. It is likened to a to-do list but is framed in terms of investing energy into tasks or projects that can yield compounding benefits over time. The video explains how categorizing tasks into active and passive investments can help in managing energy levels and prevent burnout.

💡Active Investments

Active investments in this context refer to tasks or projects that require ongoing, active engagement and energy from the individual. The video suggests that these should be limited in number to prevent feeling overwhelmed. Examples from the script include organizing singing lessons and producing a podcast episode, which require consistent effort and attention.

💡Passive Income

In the video, 'passive income' is used metaphorically to describe projects that are on autopilot or managed by others, requiring less active energy from the individual. The speaker gives the example of going to the gym with a personal trainer, which now requires less mental and motivational effort compared to when it was an active investment.

💡Bucket List

The bucket list in the video represents a collection of desires or goals that the individual wants to achieve but are not currently being actively pursued. It serves as a reservoir of potential future active investments. Examples mentioned include glamping, mountain biking, and learning new skills.

💡Compounding

Compounding, often used in finance to describe the growth of investments, is applied in the video to describe the growth and improvement in skills or projects over time through consistent investment of energy. The speaker emphasizes the importance of investing in projects that can compound and yield long-term benefits, such as learning to sing or play an instrument.

💡Working Memory

Working memory is mentioned in relation to the number of projects one can effectively manage at a time. The video suggests that most people can actively manage about five plus or minus two projects, drawing a parallel to the cognitive limit of working memory capacity. This concept is used to argue for limiting the number of active investments to maintain productivity and avoid burnout.

💡Dunbar Number

The Dunbar number, originally referring to the cognitive limit to the number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships, is repurposed in the video to suggest a similar limit for the number of active projects one can manage. The speaker suggests that having too many active investments can lead to a similar feeling of being overwhelmed as having too many social connections.

💡Embracing Finitude

Embracing finitude is the acceptance of the limited nature of time and energy, which is a philosophical underpinning of the video's message on productivity. The speaker encourages viewers to acknowledge these limitations and prioritize their energy investments wisely, rather than striving for unrealistic efficiency or trying to do everything.

Highlights

The video discusses methods to manage energy rather than time, as energy is the limiting factor for productivity.

The concept of an 'energy investment portfolio' is introduced as a way to manage energy on tasks and projects.

The portfolio is divided into 'active investments' and 'passive income', reflecting the level of energy required.

The speaker shares personal examples of active and passive projects, such as singing lessons and gym routines.

The importance of limiting the number of active investments to avoid burnout is emphasized.

A recommended limit of 3 to 7 active projects is suggested, based on working memory capacity.

The video explains how to transition projects from active to passive or completed based on their energy demands.

The idea of investing in projects that compound over time, similar to financial investments, is discussed.

The speaker advocates for embracing the finite nature of time and energy, rather than striving for unrealistic productivity.

The video mentions a book summary and an interview that delve deeper into the philosophy of time and productivity.

The concept of SMART goals is critiqued in favor of a more flexible approach to goal setting.

The speaker shares their personal preference for vague goals to maintain creativity and enjoyment.

A method for weekly progress evaluation on active investments is suggested to maintain momentum.

The importance of monitoring energy levels and making adjustments to projects is highlighted.

The video concludes with a call to accept the limitations of time and energy, and to prioritize accordingly.

Transcripts

hey friends welcome back to productivity

club the ongoing series where we discuss

methods strategies tools that help us do

more of the things that matter to us in

a way that's fun and that's sustainable

now the problem that i've always had

with time management over the last

several years and that a lot of you guys

seem to have as well is just overwhelm

in terms of there is an endless list of

things that i want to do but then when i

actually get down to doing them i end up

doing very few of them or i end up

taking too much on and then i end up

feeling like i don't really have the

time for it but what i've realized

recently is that it's not really about

time management because all of us kind

of do have the time to do stuff at least

for me it's not really that i don't have

the time because i could make the time

it's that i don't have the energy one

solution to this problem is to find ways

to make the things that you're doing

more energizing and in a way this is the

thesis of the book that i'm writing and

i'm definitely going to be making more

videos around that core idea because

i've been doing a bunch of research

looking into the scientific papers

around like what is the things that give

us energy but that's not the point of

this video the point of this video is

method number two for kind of managing

our energy and that is this idea of the

energy investment portfolio right so

what is the energy investment portfolio

basically it is a glorified to-do list

or rather a glorified projects list but

i've been finding that framing it in

this way really helps me at least manage

my energy in a way that makes more sense

so i'm just going to show you what that

looks like i use notion for it we've got

a template linked in the video

description if you want to check it out

no they're not sponsoring this video but

like you can check it out if you want

but you can really create the system in

any kind of app you can use pen and

paper you can use journal you can use

todoist things or like a number of a

zillion apps that you can use for this

thing but i'm going to show you in

notion exactly what this looks like and

here is how it works we have the energy

investment portfolio and we basically

have four columns or rather three

columns and then the second one is split

up into two the first column is the

bucket list this is everything that i

think i want to do so mandarin glamping

mountain biking wakeboarding scuba

diving coat surfing bungee jumping learn

parkour learn motorbiking learn street

hypnosis stay in a treehouse learn to

cook road trip usa nevada archery get

good at acro yoga surfing trip to

bristol japanese et cetera et cetera et

cetera et cetera then in the middle we

have kind of the projects in progress

and i call these the active investments

and the passive income i like the money

terminology is kind of fun feel free to

call this whatever you want but i found

that this kind of taps into the sort of

obsessed with money part of my

personality and i'm very familiar with

like the idea of an active investment

and passive income which is why we're

using this terminology so the active

investments that i'm actively investing

my energy into and this is sort of in my

personal life rather than my work life i

have a work-life example i'll show you

in a second but the active projects that

i'm investing my energy into are at the

moment two things uh number one trying

to organize two singing lessons per week

because i really want to get better at

singing i really love musical theater

singers and i want to try and become

good and i know that getting more

singing lessons with my singing teacher

josh uh will hopefully help with that

and i also want to make sure that every

week i'm doing a podcast episode of not

overthinking with my brother link down

below if you want to check it out then

we have the passive income column now

this is basically projects that are on

autopilot or that someone else is taking

care of so in this case we've got two

projects on my personal life the first

one is that gyming three times a week

but this is basically on autopilot

because now i've got a personal trainer

when i didn't have a personal trainer

this was very much an active investment

i had to actively invest energy and

brain space and mind space and all those

things motivational force into actually

getting to the gym three times a week

but now that i've actually kind of

outsourced that to a personal trainer

and every week he's just like all right

what sessions are we doing and i just

have to look at my calendar and be like

monday wednesday friday done in a way

that is now on autopilot so going to the

gym three times a week is no longer

something i have to actively invest

energy into obviously i'm still

investing energy into it when i go to

the gym but this idea of energy

investment is really more about like

headspace than it is about like the

actual physical kilojoules or

kilocalories of energy that we're

investing into our specific work and

we've got another project which is you

know find a new place to live where i

have somewhat delegated that to angus

because we're trying to figure out like

can we figure out like a live work

situation and find like a commercial

building that i can live in as well all

that stuff angus is on the case and so

right now i've it's in the passive

income category because i am not

actively investing energy into it but as

soon as angus is like alright here are

some five places we have to look at

that's going to now become an active

investment and it's going to become a

thing that i actively have to put time

and energy into and then we've got the

completed column which is you know surf

trip to morocco is the bull wedding

speech

a few other random bits and bobs but the

core idea here is that this middle

column the active investment column

needs to be capped at a certain number

now what is that number what is that

number of active projects a few months

ago i was trying to do a bunch of the

stuff at once i had learned mandarin on

the list i was trying to have guitar

lessons as well get better at acoustic

guitar i was trying to have piano

lessons as well learn piano and at the

same time i was trying to have i was

trying to kind of dabble with music

theory along with a bunch of other

things and that felt very overwhelming

it felt like oh my god i feel like i'm

trying to do too much oh also i was also

trying to have art lessons at the same

time this was something last year

actually and this list was too much did

i found that one two three four five six

seven eight eight projects on this list

was just too much for me to handle and i

was feeling that feeling of overwhelm

and that feeling of burnout and that

feeling of like oh what's the point of

doing all this i was getting to like my

art and guitar lessons and even though

they were fun like i'd i'd have that

feeling of oh my god i really can't be

bothered to do this and i recognize that

whenever i have that feeling of like ugh

i can't be bothered to do this and if i

have that feeling more than like once or

twice in a row and it becomes a pattern

that means i'm probably taking on too

many projects and so what i've realized

over time is that the the fewer things i

have in the active investment column the

happier i am with life and the more

attention i can give to those things and

the more effective i feel um and having

read a bunch of business books and

listened to a bunch of podcasts with

like ceos and billionaires and startup

founders and stuff they all basically

say that like limit your number of

projects in progress and so learning

mandarin is now back on the bucket list

it's something i'm not gonna take

seriously in this season of life

similarly guitar piano music theory art

lessons these are all things i want to

do at some point but i know that in this

current season of life that's not

actually going to be helping me because

it's going to lead to this overwhelm and

lead to this feeling of burnout now that

tends to beg the question for like how

many projects should you have going at a

given moment and i think this is going

to vary for different people i've been

speaking to basically everyone i know

about this over the last several months

i think the number is basically five

plus or minus two so somewhere between

three and seven seems to be around about

the number that seems to be reasonable

for most people coincidentally this is

you know if you look into the research

behind working memory this is how many

chunks of information we can hold in our

working memory in the random access

memory the ram of our brain is how many

chunks of information we can hold at a

given moment so for example when they do

studies where they ask people to

memorize bits of numbers generally

people can memorize five plus or minus

two chunks of information and i think

that seems to be round about accurate

for this active investment stuff as well

usually people i've spoken to if i think

of myself when i've got like more than

seven projects on the go it feels like

i'm completely scattered and i'm gonna

kind of burn out doing those things

whereas when i have less than that it

feels much more manageable and basically

the smaller this number is like i only

really need to put my kind of personal

life effort into these two or three

extra things each week that then starts

to feel really good i do have a separate

work one where i kind of think about

projects on the work list but that's

like a side point we're focusing on the

personal one here and i think this is

sort of like a dunbar number so done by

number that you might have heard of is

like the number of kind of people we can

have kind of close relationships with at

a given time i think we have a dunbar

number for active projects and i think

that number is five plus or minus two

now a few other things to mention about

this so why is it called an energy

investment portfolio firstly because i

like the finance terminology and i think

it's just kind of fun to think of it in

those terms but secondly it's an energy

investment portfolio because just like

we think of investing our money into

assets that compound like the stock

market or bitcoin not right now or like

real estate which will hopefully

compound over time we can also think of

investing our energy into projects that

compound so for example a lot of the

things on this list are skills and

habits so i know that to get better at

singing i just need to consistently show

up to singing lessons and hopefully that

will compound over time and i'll be able

to then be a good singer or be a way

better singer than i currently am with

the compound and growth and that's why

i'm thinking of this as an investment

portfolio like what are the projects i'm

investing energy and time and attention

into because i am investing in those

things and i'm hoping that they will

have a return further down the line

there are some projects you know my

surfing trip to morocco generally things

that are trips or one-off projects where

there's no compounding returns on those

that's sort of the equivalent of kind of

buying a property doing it up and then

selling it where you're not really

benefiting from from compounding there

but it is still an investment in that

you're investing into this thing so that

you can do this thing and gain a return

from it even though it's a one-off

return and the surf trip to morocco was

sick the trip to istanbul was sick and

so i like to put when i'm organizing

something big into the active investment

thing as well because organizing three

holidays at a time is actually too

overwhelming and i can't do it but i

know that if you know every month or so

i'm trying to organize something new

i'll just chuck it into the active

investment list and then in my mind i'll

know oh okay this is what i'm organizing

and then once it's done once it's been

organized so let's say for example my

next trip is wake boarding trip to

barley and i can give it a little type

of trip just for fun while i'm still

organizing it i'll often put it over

here it needs organizing

then conveniently in notion i can use

the notion card feature to like you know

put in details of the trip

and i can do all the things on notion

i've made zillions of videos about

notions so you can check those out if

you're not familiar with notion and then

once the trip is organized i'll chuck it

in passive income because now i don't

need to do any work for it anymore so

it's just kind of passive doesn't quite

work with the idea of passive income but

you get what i mean and then when the

trip's done it'll just go into completed

so then i'll know that okay cool i now

currently like right now i'm not in the

process of organizing a major trip and i

know i have space in my brain to

organize a major trip so now i'll be

thinking huh okay cool you know actually

i think a mountain biking trip would be

quite fun cool let's just find a date in

the diary and organize it and invite

some friends to it and this kind of

attitude has actually made me take a lot

more trips over the last few months than

i i've taken before because now i know

that sort of trip organizing is an

investment i could make and when that

slot is empty it feels great because it

means i can just organize the next one

and just to speak to something my

english teacher used to say back in

school the secret to happiness is to

have something to do someone to love and

something to look forward to and so in

this case these trips are the something

to look forward to that i have and the

rest of the stuff especially the work

stuff is the something to do and we'll

talk more about someone to love in a

later video now if you're having a look

at this notion template and you're

thinking that sounds interesting but

you're thinking you might want to

potentially try and use notion to build

this or anything else for yourself you

might like to check out my brand new

class on skillshare which is all about

notion for beginners and how to maximize

your productivity using notion and thank

you skillshare so much for sponsoring

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skillshare is the world's best platform

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thank you skillshare for sponsoring the

video let's get on with the video final

thing to mention on this front uh you

will notice that none of these are

particularly smart you might be familiar

with like the paradigm of goal setting

called smart goals specific measurable

achievable realistic and time-bound or

something like that and technically you

know learn music theory is not a very

good goal right because like how will i

know when i've learned music theory

people would normally say that to make

that an effective goal you should say

pass the grade 8 a b rsm exam in music

theory by this date and then that

becomes achievable and measurable and

time-bound and all that stuff but to be

honest i have never really vibed with

that type of goal setting what i

generally prefer to do is just have a

very rough idea of like okay these are

the broad projects i'm working on i know

in my own mind why i'm working on them i

know that they're going to be connected

to things i actually care about which is

why they're on the list but i don't need

to try and build a complex system that

kind of takes the joy out of working on

the stuff i know that some people love

this you know my friend august bradley

has an incredible youtube channel where

he goes in depth about like going ham

and all these complex notion features

and he loves being able to connect every

single project in his life to some kind

of wider goal and i find that incredibly

inspiring but i've tried that system and

i find that generally whenever i have

complexity in a system complexity

reduces my creativity and reduces my

productivity and reduces my enjoyment of

life so these are all deliberately vague

because the point of this isn't so that

i have like a surefire complex system of

working towards any goals the point is

that so i can keep track of like am i

doing too many things because that's

always a risk in anyone's life that i've

ever spoken to the risk is not am i

doing too little it tends to be am i

doing too much especially for people who

are ambitious which tends to really only

be the sorts of people i speak to and i

found that over time the fewer projects

i have in active investments like

generally less than five ideally less

than three the less likely i am to burn

out and the more likely i am to enjoy

the journey while it being sustainable

right so how else can you use this

energy investment portfolio uh the other

thing to think about is with active

investments you have to be actively

putting some amount of effort into them

and so again i don't like complexity but

the thing i ask myself when i look at

this is what progress can i make on this

thing this week just this week i don't

think in terms of this month or this

quarter or anything like that i'm not

thinking i'm not making a whole list of

actions that are required in this

project i'm just thinking okay what

progress can i make on this this week

people like to make long lists of action

points again i've tried this i've tried

every productivity method under the sun

where you have a project and you break

it down into the 50 different steps that

it's going to take and you tick off one

at a time but i always found with those

at least for me that just writing down

those steps was its own exercise in

procrastination and once i'd written

down all the steps i kind of lost

interest in the project because it's

just like okay now i actually have to do

the work whereas i find that when i just

take it a day at a time or a week at a

time and just think only what is the

next action that just makes me make so

much more progress on anything than

worrying about the whole shebang list of

steps final tip when it comes to this

stuff is that i generally find it super

helpful to really kind of try and try

and monitor my own energy levels when it

comes to these sorts of projects

and

over time i've started to recognize the

feeling of you know when i feel like a

project is draining my energy so for

example when i have art lessons and i

had i was having art lessons three to

three days a week and i found that there

was they were draining my energy rather

than energizing me usually that is a

sign that something is off and i

recognize that feeling of like oh this

feels a bit raining

try and figure out okay what's off about

this and then sometimes the answer is to

scrap the project and put it back to the

bucket list sometimes the answer is to

delete it all together because i've

realized i actually don't care about

taking our lessons anymore or sometimes

the answer is okay let me figure out a

way to make this a bit more fun a bit

more energizing i guess overall the meta

point behind this video and why i love

this way of thinking about time

management compared to what i used to

before this is something oliver bergman

talks about in his book 4000 weeks

basically the idea is that actually time

is finite energy is finite like we

cannot do all the things and as much as

productivity gurus like me might pedal

the narrative that actually you can have

it all and as long as you are efficient

with your time you you too can build a

side hustle and learn the language and

start a youtube channel and like have a

healthy relationship and like work for

60 hours a week like

that narrative is a little bit old i

don't think i ever used to peddle that

narrative but like people had the vibe

that oh my god ali must be a machine you

must be so efficient all the time i

always used to be a bit surprised by

that and my friends would be surprised

because they'd be like they'd see me and

they'd they'd see that i waste so much

time and they'd be wondering why why the

internet considers me some sort of

productivity guru the thing that clicked

for me when i read 4000 weeks and when i

interviewed oliver burkman on my podcast

is this idea of embracing finitude

embracing the fact that we cannot do it

all i just suck at replying to whatsapp

messages i'm never going to be able to

reply to all my friends and rather than

feel bad about it and think oh if only i

was more efficient on the toilet i'd be

able to reply to messages i just think

you know what it's fine some friends

will go without a reply and i'm okay

with that and i'm sad to be

disappointing them but ultimately i'm

okay with it because my time and my

energy is finite and i can only do

certain things so for example replying

to friends whatsapp messages within an

hour is not on the list of active

investments although for some of my

friends they really value that they see

as a big priority in their life and

therefore they tend to do more of it

anyway if you enjoyed this video you

might like to check out my book summary

of 4000 weeks which is going to be

linked over there that is time and how

to use it it's the most kind of

philosophical take on time management

and productivity that i've read in

recent years and over there you can find

my interview with oliver berkman on the

deep dive podcast where we explore the

topic in depth thank you so much for

watching have a great day and we'll see

you in the next video bye