This Is What Everyone Gets WRONG About Protein & Building Muscle! | Dr. Stuart Phillips

Summary

In this insightful discussion, the role of protein in muscle health and the prevention of conditions like sarcopenia is explored. The conversation debunks myths about protein consumption's impact on kidney health and bone density, emphasizing the importance of protein quality and adequate intake, especially for older individuals and those engaged in resistance training. Expert opinions on the nuances of muscle protein synthesis, the benefits of plant-based proteins, and the optimal frequency of workouts for maximizing muscle protein synthesis are also shared, providing a comprehensive guide for maintaining muscle mass and strength.

Takeaways

• 😀 High protein diets do not cause kidney failure or make bones brittle; these are common misconceptions.
• 🏋️‍♂️ Resistance training is essential for muscle growth, as it makes muscles more sensitive to the protein consumed, promoting muscle protein synthesis (MPS).
• 🥚 The quality of protein is important, with complete proteins (like those from animal sources) being more effective in stimulating MPS due to their essential amino acid profile, particularly leucine.
• 🌱 Plant-based proteins can be effective for muscle building, but may require a slightly higher intake due to varying amino acid compositions; combining different plant proteins can help.
• 💊 Protein supplements, such as whey or soy, can be beneficial, especially for convenience or when dietary protein intake is lacking, but should not replace whole foods.
• 🧬 The body's anabolic response to protein and exercise can decline with age, highlighting the importance of consistent resistance training and adequate protein intake as we age.
• 🚫 Extreme protein restriction or overemphasis on protein intake without considering overall diet and activity levels can be detrimental to health and muscle maintenance.
• 🔄 Muscle protein turnover is a natural process of breakdown and synthesis, with exercise and protein intake being key regulators; a balance is needed for optimal muscle health.
• 🌟 Even in the absence of weight loss, increasing muscle mass can improve metabolic health by increasing resting metabolic rate and insulin sensitivity.
• 👶 Age-related muscle loss (sarcopenia) is a concern, especially for the elderly, and can be mitigated with proper nutrition and resistance training.
• 🌞 Vitamin D and calcium are crucial for bone health, and should be ensured alongside a protein-rich diet for overall musculoskeletal health.

Q & A

What is the myth surrounding high protein diets and kidney health?

The myth is that high protein diets can cause kidney failure. However, the speaker clarifies that multiple meta-analyses have shown that protein does not cause kidney failure, and this is an important point to address as it is a common misconception.

How does protein intake affect bone health according to the transcript?

Contrary to another myth, a high protein diet does not make bones brittle or weak. In fact, protein is supportive of bone health as bones are partly composed of protein. It's still important to get adequate calcium and vitamin D for bone support.

What is the significance of the amino acid leucine in muscle protein synthesis (MPS)?

Leucine is a branched-chain amino acid that plays a crucial role in turning on the process of muscle protein synthesis. It acts as a signal or trigger to initiate the building of new muscle, hence its importance in diets, especially for those engaging in resistance training.

What is the recommended amount of protein intake for optimal muscle synthesis, as discussed in the transcript?

The transcript suggests aiming for about 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, which is roughly equivalent to 7 grams per pound. This amount is more than the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) but provides a layer of support for muscle synthesis.

How does resistance training influence muscle sensitivity to protein?

Resistance training, such as weightlifting, makes muscles more sensitive to the protein consumed, leading to more efficient muscle synthesis. It also slightly increases protein degradation, but the overall effect is a faster turnover with synthesis outweighing breakdown, resulting in increased muscle mass.

What is the role of autophagy in muscle protein breakdown, and how can it be regulated?

Autophagy is a cellular process that regulates protein breakdown by clearing out damaged or non-functioning proteins. It can be upregulated through extended fasting, which helps clean out cellular debris and tightens up the muscle system by promoting the removal of old or damaged 'bricks' in the muscle wall.

What are the two main stimuli that promote muscle protein synthesis according to the discussion?

The two main stimuli that promote muscle protein synthesis are the consumption of protein-containing food and resistance exercise, such as weightlifting. These two factors work together to maximize the 'bricks' going into the muscle wall.

How does the first meal of the day affect muscle protein synthesis, and why is it important?

The first meal of the day is particularly important because the system is most sensitive to protein intake after an overnight fast. Consuming sufficient protein at breakfast can kickstart muscle protein synthesis for the day, setting a pattern for muscle maintenance and growth.

What is the 'brick wall' analogy used to explain muscle protein synthesis and why is it effective?

The 'brick wall' analogy is used to describe muscle protein synthesis, where muscles are likened to walls made of bricks (amino acids). The process of muscle protein synthesis is compared to building and repairing a wall, with new bricks (amino acids from protein intake) replacing old or damaged ones. This analogy effectively illustrates the dynamic nature of muscle maintenance and growth.

How does the discussion view the role of protein supplements in muscle building and what are the recommendations for their use?

Protein supplements are viewed as a convenient way to increase protein intake, especially for those not meeting their protein needs through whole foods. The recommendation is to choose high-quality, reputable supplements, and to use them strategically to complement a diet that may be lacking in protein-rich foods.

Outlines

00:00

🚨 High Protein Diet Misconceptions Debunked

The speaker clarifies common misconceptions about high protein diets, emphasizing that they do not cause kidney failure or make bones brittle. They argue that while protein is important for muscle growth, it's not the sole determinant. The role of exercise, particularly weightlifting, is highlighted as crucial for muscle development. The analogy of muscles as a brick wall that constantly turns over its components is introduced to explain muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and the importance of a balanced diet and exercise for muscle health.

05:01

🏋️‍♂️ The Role of Exercise and Protein in Muscle Growth

This paragraph delves into the nuances of muscle growth, discussing the importance of both exercise and dietary protein. The speaker explains that while exercise stimulates muscle sensitivity to protein, the actual building of muscle (MPS) is influenced by the balance between protein synthesis and degradation. They also touch on the concept of autophagy, which is the cellular process of breaking down and recycling damaged components, and how it can be regulated by fasting to maintain muscle health.

10:03

🥚 Protein Intake and Its Timing for Optimal Muscle Synthesis

The discussion shifts to the timing and amount of protein intake for maximizing muscle protein synthesis. The speaker refutes the idea that there is a strict limit to the amount of protein the body can absorb, citing research that shows higher protein intakes can be beneficial. They also emphasize the importance of the first meal of the day in stimulating MPS, suggesting that a substantial protein intake at breakfast can set the stage for muscle maintenance throughout the day.

15:05

💊 Supplements and Their Role in Muscle Health

This section explores the role of supplements like creatine and omega-3s in muscle health and the potential cognitive benefits of creatine. The speaker discusses creatine's effect on muscle strength and the brain's energy supply, as well as the preventative effects of omega-3s on muscle atrophy. They also address the importance of vitamin D, especially for those living at higher latitudes, in maintaining muscle and bone health.

20:07

🏋️‍♀️ Resistance Training and Its Impact on Muscle Protein Synthesis

The speaker discusses the impact of resistance training on muscle protein synthesis (MPS), noting that while exercise can increase muscle sensitivity to protein, older individuals may experience anabolic resistance, reducing the muscle's ability to utilize protein efficiently. They suggest that increasing protein intake and engaging in more intense exercise might help counteract this resistance and maintain muscle mass as one ages.

25:09

👶 Age-Related Changes in Hormonal Benefits and Muscle Building

This paragraph examines the changes in hormonal benefits related to muscle building as one ages. The speaker notes that the anabolic drive from hormones decreases with age, making it more challenging to maintain muscle mass. They emphasize the importance of consistent physical activity and exercise to counteract the natural decline in muscle and fitness, especially after the age of 50.

30:10

🏥 Coping with Muscle Loss During Disuse or Hospitalization

The speaker addresses the rapid muscle loss that can occur during disuse, such as when a person is bedridden due to injury or hospitalization. They suggest that while younger individuals can regain lost muscle mass relatively easily, older individuals may experience permanent muscle loss unless they engage in targeted rehabilitation efforts, such as resistance training.

35:12

💊 Protein Supplements and Their Place in a Balanced Diet

This section discusses the role of protein supplements in achieving optimal muscle protein synthesis. The speaker advises choosing reputable brands and emphasizes that while supplements can be a convenient way to meet protein needs, they should not replace a balanced diet. They also dispel myths about protein causing kidney failure or bone issues, highlighting the importance of considering overall diet and lifestyle.

40:12

🏋️‍♂️ The Importance of Exercise Over Diet for Muscle Maintenance

The speaker stresses the importance of exercise for muscle maintenance, stating that it is more effective than diet alone. They argue that while diet is important, especially for weight loss, muscle and fitness are primarily achieved through physical activity. The speaker also touches on the potential benefits of exercise for cognitive health and the prevention of dementia.

45:15

🥗 Plant-Based Proteins and Their Adequacy for Muscle Building

This paragraph explores the adequacy of plant-based proteins for muscle building. The speaker challenges the notion that plant proteins are inferior to animal proteins, explaining that while plant proteins may be slightly lower in certain essential amino acids, consuming enough quantity can still support muscle growth. They also discuss the importance of combining different plant proteins to meet amino acid requirements.

50:16

🏋️‍♀️ Gender Differences in Resistance Training and Muscle Gain

The speaker discusses potential gender differences in muscle gain and resistance training, suggesting that while there may be some hormonal differences, especially around menopause, the overall response to training is similar between men and women. They emphasize that women can also benefit significantly from strength training and that the fear of 'bulking up' is largely unfounded.

55:19

📈 Frequency of Resistance Training for Optimal Muscle Protein Synthesis

In the final paragraph, the speaker addresses the optimal frequency of resistance training for muscle protein synthesis. They suggest that training two to three times a week is likely the most effective for maximizing muscle growth, while also noting that any training is better than none. The speaker also dismisses the idea of using muscle soreness as a guide for training frequency, advocating for a balanced and consistent approach to exercise.

Keywords

💡Protein

Protein is a macronutrient essential for the human diet, playing a crucial role in muscle repair and growth. In the video, it is emphasized that a high protein diet does not cause kidney failure or bone brittleness, debunking common misconceptions. The script discusses the importance of protein for muscle synthesis and the role of essential amino acids, particularly leucine, in triggering muscle protein synthesis (MPS).

💡Muscle Protein Synthesis (MPS)

MPS refers to the process by which the body builds muscle, incorporating amino acids into muscle tissue. The video script highlights the significance of MPS in muscle growth and maintenance, and how it is influenced by factors such as protein intake and resistance exercise. The concept of 'bricks building a wall' is used as an analogy to describe the process of MPS in muscle tissue.

💡Leucine

Leucine is an essential branched-chain amino acid that plays a pivotal role in initiating muscle protein synthesis. The script mentions leucine as a 'signal' or 'trigger' amino acid, necessary for starting the muscle building process. It is noted for its importance in ensuring an adequate protein intake, especially in plant-based diets.

💡Resistance Training

Resistance training, such as weightlifting, is a form of exercise that causes muscle fibers to contract against an external load, leading to muscle growth and strength. The video emphasizes the synergy between resistance training and protein intake for optimal muscle development, and how this type of training can help counteract age-related muscle loss.

💡Anabolic Resistance

Anabolic resistance refers to the decreased ability of the body to respond to anabolic stimuli, such as protein intake and exercise, as it ages. The script discusses how anabolic resistance can affect muscle maintenance and growth, particularly in older individuals, and the importance of adequate protein intake and consistent resistance training to combat this.

💡Essential Amino Acids

Essential amino acids are those that the body cannot synthesize on its own and must be obtained through the diet. The script explains that these amino acids are critical for muscle protein synthesis, with a focus on leucine as a key component that triggers the process.

💡Plant-Based Protein

Plant-based protein refers to dietary protein sources derived from plants, such as soy, peas, and legumes. The video script addresses misconceptions about the quality of plant-based proteins compared to animal proteins and highlights the importance of consuming enough protein from plant sources to support muscle health.

💡Bone Health

Bone health in the video is discussed in relation to protein intake, which is often misunderstood to have negative effects on bones. The script clarifies that a high protein diet does not lead to brittle bones and emphasizes the importance of calcium and vitamin D for bone support.

💡Sarcopenia

Sarcopenia is the age-related loss of muscle mass and strength. The video script discusses the impact of sarcopenia on physical function and the importance of resistance training and adequate protein intake to mitigate its effects and maintain muscle mass as one ages.

💡Meta-Analysis

A meta-analysis is a statistical technique used to synthesize the results of multiple studies on a specific topic. The script mentions meta-analyses conducted on the topic of protein intake and its effects on muscle and health, which have helped to establish a more accurate understanding of protein requirements and benefits.

💡Protein Supplement

Protein supplements are concentrated sources of protein often used to augment dietary protein intake, especially for those engaging in resistance training. The video script discusses the use of protein supplements like whey and soy protein to help meet protein requirements and support muscle protein synthesis.

Highlights

Protein intake does not cause kidney failure or make bones brittle, contrary to some beliefs.

The importance of a balanced diet with adequate calcium and vitamin D for bone health, in addition to protein.

The concept of muscle building being like constructing a brick wall, emphasizing the role of protein in muscle repair and growth.

The necessity of resistance training for muscle stimulation and the role of protein in enhancing muscle sensitivity to training.

The impact of fasting and autophagy on regulating protein breakdown and the benefits of short-term fasting for cellular health.

The recommendation of 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight for muscle maintenance and growth.

The significance of the first meal of the day in stimulating muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and setting the tone for the day's protein needs.

The potential benefits of higher protein intake for muscle mass, even beyond the recommended dietary allowance (RDA).

The myth that the body can only absorb a certain amount of protein at a time, debunked by recent studies.

The role of protein distribution throughout the day for optimal muscle building and maintenance.

The importance of resistance training in conjunction with protein intake for muscle growth, especially in older adults.

The phenomenon of anabolic resistance with aging and the need to adjust protein and exercise strategies accordingly.

The impact of disuse, such as bed rest or injury, on muscle mass and the difficulty of regaining lost muscle, particularly in older individuals.

Strategies for preserving muscle mass during periods of inactivity, such as hospital stays, including diet and exercise modifications.

The role of essential amino acids, particularly leucine, in initiating muscle protein synthesis and the quality of protein sources.

The benefits of plant-based proteins and the need for slightly higher intake compared to animal proteins.

The effectiveness of protein supplements, such as soy and pea protein, for muscle health and their comparison to animal-based proteins.

The potential for high protein intake to support longevity and health span, contrary to some negative assumptions.

The practical advice on protein supplementation, including the timing of intake and the importance of choosing high-quality supplements.

The role of protein in weight loss strategies, including satiety and the thermic effect of protein on metabolism.

The impact of resistance training frequency on muscle protein synthesis, with recommendations for optimal training schedules.

Transcripts

we've done several metaanalyses protein

does not cause kidney failure I think

it's important to realize that you're

not going to make your bones brittle or

weak by having a high protein diet but

again still important to get calcium and

vitamin D dialed in because they're the

two main bone supported nutrient for

sure but I think people have become very

polarized in their views and it's become

now a battle of philosophy rather than

science but the reality is is that if

you're eating those plant-based things

you just got to eat a little bit more

protein I don't have a horse in the race

and everything but I would have said 20

years ago protein is King it's super

important you got to get it you got to

eat more and now it's sort of like nah

it's a thin slice on top you bake the

cake in other words you make the muscle

by going to the gym by lifting weights

and doing it regularly if you really

want to tweak things then eat a little

bit more protein I'm i' say a little bit

like twice the RDA so 1.6 so it's not a

trivial amount it is more than is

recommended but what it adds is it's a

layer of icing on the cake and that

really pisses people off

steu you have this great analogy

comparing muscle to a brick wall I'll

have you walk me through that yeah um I

don't know if it's a great analogy but

it's one that works um you know muscle

is made up of bricks uh there are 20

Bricks there are 20 amino acids that

make up protein and so you know the

bricks build a wall uh uh I think the

analog is pretty opt because you know

you look at some walls and they're just

built they look great great and then you

know couple years later they don't look

so great and so you think oh maybe I

should take that brick out it's kind of

it's not looking so good and um so you

replace it with another brick you

replace it with a a new brick and that

concept of turning over the wall putting

new bricks in and taking old bricks out

is one that I think is you know it's

pretty opt because that's exactly how

things work in muscle the difference is

is it's not taken out every 10 years

it's taken out um you know one and a

half% of all the bricks every day get

pulled out and and and replaced and so I

have a good friend and colleague named

Luke vanloon who's uh from the

Netherlands and you know he likes to say

you know when you look at your arm it's

a different arm in about 60 days uh from

a muscle perspective and he's fought on

your muscle's completely new um which

you know it's that still blows me away I

think it's um it's a pretty cool feature

of muscle but not just muscle like every

tissue in your body does the same thing

but uh we study muscle so that's the one

that fascinates me well I like the

analogy a lot because this muscle

protein synthesis or

MPS can be a very

abstract term I guess it's it's not so

abstract but it's hard to

conceptualize and I think the brick wall

really puts that into perspective with

the

MPS and the muscle protein

degradation

so you've already gotten into really

General overview but let's get into some

of the new nuances what we want to do to

make sure we're regulating both of those

processes the degradation the building

and the balance between the two yeah I

mean there's there's two main stimuli

that that push bricks going into the

wall uh the first one is you eat you eat

food uh protein containing food um you

know when when you're a kid it's a

little different you've got all kinds of

growth factors and hormones going on and

you're you're growing you know height

wits everything you know and often point

out to people the the period in your in

your life where you grew the most like

Baran was between you know the day you

were born and and year one right you

probably doubled in weight or something

like that like you just you you never do

that again hopefully not when you're an

adult as well um and you know it's the

eating and the consumption of protein

that's putting net bricks into the wall

and they obviously stay there over a

period of time and and the wall begins

to get bigger uh bones begin to get

longer and you know I point out to a lot

of people your bones are actually 40% by

composition protein so they're get

they're getting built up just like a you

know the brick wall of muscle as well

but so is every other organ and your

Skin's getting bigger and everything

else like that so I mean I think that uh

that's a key part of understanding you

know how we going to regulate these

processes it's definitely protein driven

uh the other you know after you're done

being a kid and you're done growing uh

in terms of you know hormonally driven

and growth factor driven growth uh then

is is exercise and you know resistance

exercise or weightlifting is obviously

the primary stimulator for muscle and uh

it promotes and makes your muscle more

sensitive to the protein that you

consume and you you put more bricks into

the wall uh at the same time um it

actually promotes a a little bit more

protein degradation too so the overall

turnover gets a little faster we just

tip the scale in the direction where

synthesis is greater than breakdown and

so muscle mass is going to go up so it's

uh really two things you know outside of

when you're a kid it's it's food it's

protein and resistance exercise not that

not that other forms of exercise can't

do it but you know the further you get

around uh you know sort of endurance is

um then you're not going to make mass as

much as you are you're going to recreate

things inside the wall and that would be

mitochondria and build aerobic capacity

so on one end of the spectrum the

synthesis we have the diet and the

exercises inputs I think it was in the

exercise realm you mentioned degradation

that can ramp up when we're

exercising anything else on that

degradation side of the spectrum that we

want to do to regulate that where my

head goes is aagy and fasting and and

that can be a way of helping

regulate cells that are no longer

functioning optimally yeah so when it

comes to this this Continuum again when

we're talking about muscle anything we

need to do on the degradation realm

other than the exercise itself yeah um

so I'll soapbox a little bit here

because I think that there is you know

there's been a like for a long time it

was all about improving net balance and

so getting synthesis to be chronically

better than or higher than uh

degradation and you can certainly see

that then the then the muscle gets

bigger and bigger and so we you know we

we tried to contrive a number of

nutritional strategies that would

inhibit breakdown uh at least acutely

the way that we could measure it

everybody said look that's better you

get better better net balance when you

think about that um you know it's kind

of like not taking out the trash right

it it's it's letting the bad bricks in

the wall accumulate and you know not not

taking them out and so the you know

what's good about that I mean you're

just just putting new bricks in but

there's a you know a crappy part of the

wall that the bricks need to come out

that's the degradation and it's not

happening so you know and there are

actually several diseases that are you

know distrophy that are related to an

inhibition of protein breakdown so you

need it to happen and in fact the better

scenario is that you're turning over

over the wall fairly rapidly and you're

just tilting the balance in favor of

synthesis so you know let's you know

that's that was the old old school View

and you know we don't want to do that in

no circumstance do we want to block or

inhibit or in any way actually I think

impede breakdown unless you're really

sick and you're in something like an

intensive care unit and and there you

know all bets are off because you're

you're wasting on a on a scale that you

know you will never lose muscle mass as

fast in your life so hopefully that

doesn't apply to too many people

listening but if you've ever been in ICU

or you've seen somebody go in and come

out you know exactly what I'm talking

about um so you know fast forward or

fast forward maybe about a decade couple

of decades and then everybody sort of

the buzzword is autophagy and we're

we're we're now talking about one of the

main processes that is regulating uh

protein breakdown down in the cell and

actually lo and behold uh extended fasts

um are are good because they up regulate

autophagy and and in a sense then it's

like you're you're cleaning out the

garbage you you're taking out damaged

proteins maybe they're oxidized maybe

they're misfolded maybe they're you know

there there's something wrong with them

to the degree that you know we're going

to we're going to break them down and it

kind of if you like my analogy is it

tightens up the whole system so now

systems turning things over very very

rapidly um the key is then you still I

mean unless you want to um you know

practice intermittent fasting or Tim

restrictive feeding or put yourself in a

permanently negative energy balance uh

you don't want to tip the scale in the

opposite direction and and lose muscle

mass unless that's a goal some people in

weight loss are completely happy with

losing muscle but um you know from my

perspective it's a good thing uh for a

limited period of time and even the

people that sort of Advance uh protein

restriction or low protein diets and

enhancing autophagy as a theory of sort

of clearing out cellular debris or uh

essentially like I said getting rid of

the garbage are now saying well you need

a period of refeeding afterwards and you

know I think that that's probably smart

you you need to allow the system to

recover and bounce back and not push it

so so deep so it there's some Nuance to

the argument about why you would do

something to upregulate breakdown uh I

think you can do it for a limited period

of time and it has benefits uh I don't

think uh a lifetime of doing it does a

lot and I'm basing that on nothing other

than we don't have any data in in people

uh we have lots of data in in rodents um

and it definitely extends lifespan I'm

just not sure that that translates over

to humans who are genetically outbred as

opposed to the inbred strains of animals

that are used and we don't live in

controlled environments with no

environmental pathogens and lots of

other things that make me very skeptical

about rodent studies so are you somebody

who practices intermittent fasting I

think I do it but I don't think I ever

thought that it was intermittent fasting

I mean for me I I mean I do it almost

every day right say uh the first thing I

do I get up in the morning and I'll have

uh an espresso a double probably a

double espresso and it's there's no

sugar it's just slam get the coffee and

uh I can sit down I'm my most productive

first thing in the morning so uh and and

then I I I exercise I get my workout in

so it's probably since I've eaten my

last minute because I go to bed I wake

up early so I go to bed pretty early um

it's probably close to I mean it's at

least 12 hours it's maybe even 14 before

I eat another meal so I mean I sent my

sense is that that's a form of Tim

restricted eating but I never really

thought I was doing that until I sort of

read a little bit more um and and then

but then I have a royal breakfast I have

a good breakfast so it's my favorite

meal of the day um so I guess I do it I

but I don't do like a five and two

or some other schemes that people do

um I just yeah it doesn't doesn't really

work for me to be honest with you I do

like to eat well let's take that even

further and talk about that first meal

how much protein do you like to get and

what would that look

like yeah uh it's a good question um

yeah so the game Cher for me for the

breakfast meal which for a long time was

was always a a protein shake or a

smoothie is been Greek style yogurt or

skier um because first uh you know it's

a great source of protein uh second I

like the taste and and third uh you know

it's got all kinds of other benefits not

the least of which is a probiotic load

which you know unless you're trying to

change that uh really doesn't change

unless you you do something and I've

learned from walking across campus and

going to my medical school rounds which

you know we the the hospital specializes

in Pediatrics and gastroenterology so

every other week I learn something about

the microbiome and you know what by

bacteria are good and all kinds of

things and so uh the dirty secret is you

got to keep doing whatever it it's just

changing your microbiotic composition

you can't take a week off and just let

it sit there then it changes again so um

it's generally about uh I would if if I

were to Ballpark Market it's probably

about 45 grams of protein um and I I I

don't have a hard time getting up to

that type of dose just given the amount

that I eat and everything else but it's

got fruit in there as well um it

generally has another coffeee um and

it's got some sort of cereal grain in

there just to you know mix in uh

sometimes there's milk sometimes it's

cafir sometimes it's um sometimes

there's protein powder sometimes there's

not it's just how how I feel and uh yeah

so but it's about it's about 45 G if

you're enjoying this episode take a

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And subscribe below thank you so much

and now back to the show let's talk

about why 45 G what's happening in the

body physiology wise is that a specific

number you've come to that you try and

aim for because of the physiology or is

that just talk about the Nuance there no

I don't think it's not a Target no I

mean you know I I think it would be fair

to say that there's uh I don't know if

the debate is Raging uh but there's

definitely uh some discussion out there

right now about the dose of protein and

so we we I think our group have in

inadvertently uh contributed to the

notion that uh and people say this all

the time and it's wrong so they say oh

well Philip's group and then you know

his buddy Kevin Tipton and olly witard

and a few others they showed that you

can only absorb 20 grams of protein and

I'm like nobody ever said that so you

can absorb a ton of protein like so just

get that out there um but we showed that

you know 20 grams of protein appears to

maximize muscle protein synthesis so I

was always like we should get at least

20 grams of protein if you're bigger you

probably need more if you're smaller you

probably need less and you we thought

the the argument was was pretty much

settled Oliver witard and Kevin Tipton

exactly the same finding um there's

another paper uh MCN who found maybe a

little bit better with 40 grams than 20

grams but the difference is about 15% in

muscle protein synthesis so maybe that's

why I aim for 45 but no I don't I I have

no uh rationale for that but you know

recently uh again uh my friend colleague

Luke vanloon and a PhD student well

actually he's not a PhD student anymore

he's a postdoc Yorn trolin um just study

where they fed people 100 grams of

protein and showed a better response

than 25 grams of protein so you know it

puts to bed the myth which which nobody

and and least of all us said you know

you can't absorb only this how much you

can

use uh is is really the question and you

know they showed I think pretty

conclusively that you can first you can

absorb a lot more uh and second that you

can you can make use of it um and and

and for longer as well well um which is

you know it's kind of interesting so uh

let's just say I I don't really aim for

that that's kind of I you know what I

get uh some days I think it's more other

days I think it's less but um it's it's

easily hitting a 30 grand threshold

almost every day and would it be fair to

say that hitting that 30 grams would be

a Bas line that the average adult would

want to shoot for we're going to get

into a lot of the nuances here over you

know a 12 hour period a 24-hour period

but that first meal of the day depending

who you talk to there is a lot of

importance put on getting that protein

Bolis and that's what I'm trying to pick

out here yeah should your average adult

aim for 20 30

grams or as we broaden out this

conversation is it more just within that

12 hours 24 hours so I think the first

meal is important and and and and let's

be clear like

like with very few exceptions and I

can't even really think of so there's

only a few people that do these

experiments our group is one Luke vanen

lon's group uh Phil aon's group in the

UK uh Blake rasmuson and a few other

people maybe but you know that's kind of

it right and I know all of those people

and we you know we present at

conferences and like we're and we're

friends like we we're good friends so no

animosity at all um almost everybody

does their experiments in an overnight

fasted State because it's metabolically

it's the easiest way to control

conditions not not always like Luke's

group has done some evening feeding

stuff um so let's say it's always a

first meal phenomenon like it's always a

breakfast meal that we're talking about

because you know it's the first thing

that these people eat uh and it's

generally isolated protein as well so

let's be clear about that it's not you

know it's not scrambled eggs and and

bacon uh it it it's whey or soy or milk

protein or or these sorts of things

so but I do think that that first meal

is important and I think Don Layman who

another good friend of mine um would

sort of and then he's the person that

primed me on this concept would sort of

say that's when the system is most

sensitive because you've just fasted

usually for at least 10 hours something

like that maybe shorter maybe longer is

most sensitive to the provision of

protein and you kind of Kickstart and

pattern the process uh he figures and he

may be right on this is that actually

the lunchtime meal is that if you get

protein synthesis it goes up and then

starting to come down the lunchtime meal

just sort of bumps it a little bit but

it's nowhere near the degree of

stimulation that the first meal gives

you um it could be that that third meal

usually dinner time um which is where

for North Americans you get most of your

protein you get another bump um and that

sort of bump continues like for quite

some time depending on how much protein

that you uh consume but the the bigger

picture when you zoom out from looking

at protein synthesis and just look at

you know muscle and lean mass gain

suggests that some of these more nuanced

details that we talk about meal to meal

distribution a few other things are made

far less important than just getting you

know uh three times 30 gram or you know

if you want like round numbers and

they're not round but 1.6 grams per kilo

OR7 grams per pound um you know in a day

and it doesn't really matter how you eat

it you can eat it maybe as if URS work

as

generalizable as one big meal and and

not as you know three small meals which

I would have said prior to urine study

would have been more optimal um but but

nobody's tested that nobody's tested the

one big versus three we've done some

iterations of that and we do find threes

generally better than a few bigger ones

but six smaller ones isn't as good as

three sort of mediumsized ones but the

differences are small I be fair I think

to say all right there's a lot of nuance

there but getting for the

adult who wants to build or maintain

muscle say a middle-aged adult given

where the research is right now would

you recommend to them having a breakfast

with a certain amount of protein to

again coming back to our brick wall

analogy to kick off MPS early on in the

day and start bringing those bricks into

the wall yeah no I think it's a solid

strategy and I also think too is it sort

of

you know I think one of Dawn's arguments

is it kind of patterns everything for

the day and and and I do think that that

first meal like it's kind of a missed

opportunity because you know if the

second meal like isn't the big bump in

protein synthesis you you miss the

opportunity if you have a small amount

of protein and like I can tell you for a

fact I mean I'm the director of a center

it's two floors down from here but um

where when we've looked at the older

women so they be on average they be

about sort of high 60s low 70s years old

uh they get about eight grams of protein

on average at breakfast and most of it

is from is from weak gluten so it's a

poor quality Source protein um and that

that's a missed opportunity to to do

something for your your muscle for sure

so I don't know where middle-aged is

anymore so let's just say that uh it

could be somewhere around 58 or

something like that you know um uh if

you were a 58y old something like me uh

then you should be aiming for yeah at

least I'd say at least 30 Grands at

breakfast would be a good habit let's

talk about that woman hypothetically

taking in only eight grams in the

morning they're not going to likely

stimulate MPS yeah take me through the

physiology there say that's all they

have at breakfast they go through to

lunch say they're again just picking at

things and and getting 15 gr of protein

right let's talk about worst case

scenario and what happens when people

aren't getting that bullus of protein

and they're really not activating

MPS yeah um you know and I can speak to

this from even a little bit less than a

theoretical uh level because we have

some data um that's basically being

analyzed right now uh postto of mine and

um it's it's pretty shocking how

small amounts of protein it might say 10

grams and you oh it's 10 grams of

protein like you know when you look and

it's mixed sources so real meals these

are real meals now um it doesn't even

budge the needle in terms of blood amino

acid levels like they don't even go up

and so it really does speak a little bit

to the fact that um you know the

isolated protein sources first were

always exaggerating the response versus

a mixed Meal which is a little bit less

and something around 10 grams of protein

of you know mixed sources um is uh is a

pretty poor uh stimulator if it

stimulates muscle protein synthesis like

at all um so I think you might offset

breakdown a little bit which is okay but

it doesn't really give you the anabolic

response that you want to kind of uh

continue to uh preserve muscle mass in

those women they'd obviously be on that

sort of the Downs slope of

sarcopenia um so you know the long and

short is if it's eight grams at

breakfast 15 grams at lunch maybe it's

30 grams at uh the dinnertime meal

dinner may be the only time where they

even get a little bit of a bump and if

Dawn's theory about the first second

third meal phenomenon is there um that's

that's not much uh so you haven't hit

that threshold or you have maybe maybe

you've come close once or you've hit it

once and you know you're good then but

that's not the way to optimize the

preservation of muscle or the gaining of

muscle if you're going in the opposite

direction then to get into some more

Nuance on our

hypothetical there's the two different

inputs that we talked about that

stimulate MPS say that woman is doing

resistance

training how is that going to

impact say again as a thought experiment

she's still having very low protein

dietary

but she's stimulating muscle and

stimulating MPS that way is it kind of

do we bring both of those together

to have that threshold breached diet and

exercise yeah

um so you know right off the bat first

thing if you're lifting weights you're

doing something really good for yourself

so don't want to discourage anybody from

doing that or say if you're not doing

the protein distribution you're not

getting that right that resistance

exercise is is you know resistance is

futile to use the phrase um it's not

like it's it's got lots of benefits you

get a lot stronger uh it's good for your

muscles it's good for your attendance

it's good for your bone it's good for

your General Health

otherwise um the they're synergistic in

the way they work uh exercise makes

muscles more sensitive to protein and so

you build more uh the hard part to

acknowledge is as you get older uh

there's a phenomenon known as anabolic

resistance and so that

sensitization of muscle as a result of

resistance exercise just doesn't happen

to the same degree as it did when you

were younger and it has some parallels

with insulin sensitivity um you know if

people understand that concept is that

you know a given amount of glucose

solicits a given amount of insulin

response and then you get a given amount

of take uptake of the glucose into

muscle um same P same principle except

maybe a little bit less driven by

insulin and a given amount of protein

gives you a given amount of amino acids

and instead of them efficiently going

into the muscle and replacing those

damaged bricks in the wall they don't

get in they they just can't get into the

muscle and or if they get in they're not

used as efficiently at repairing the

wall and so you know that's anabolic

resistance or or you or you digest less

of the protein and so that could be

where the barrier is with with um older

people so um you know your hypothetical

theoretical woman is still doing

something good for herself very good um

but she's probably not getting all the

benefit that she could if she had the

protein dialed in and evenly distributed

or she was getting that uh you know

amount that we talked about earlier

across the day coming back to anabolic

resistance as people age is that

affecting both inputs the diet and the

exercise do people as the age need to

ramp up in both of

those talk about the specifics there

yeah um probably yes

um both do tend to go down uh like for

reasons that that aren't fully clear but

you get less of an anabolic response to

exercise and you get less of an anabolic

response to protein so the theory is is

that you know you can you can make up by

eating a bit more protein and and I

definitely think that 1.6 grams per

kilogram 7 grams per pound is that's

generic recommendation that's good

doesn't matter whether you're younger or

older uh from the exercise standpoint

You could argue that you know yeah you

need to do more or need to do more

intense work or anything the the hard

part to overcome is that as you get

older that gets harder and and it

hurts so uh and that's not because of

the soft tissue response muscles are

actually pretty good and repairing

themselves whatever but the connective

tissue response the tendons ligaments

cartilage is um you know that stuff just

it wears out um it's got a poor blood

supply and we just we just can't make it

and renew it as as well as we did when

we were younger um so I think it's

harder uh as you age and at some point I

mean the the you know the mechanism just

begins to tip and and sarcopenia begins

um I think in in Earnest if we compare

the average 50y old that's out there um

to the average 30y old we we could if we

had enough people say that they're

they're already suffering from

sarcopenia they're already losing muscle

they're weaker there are some activities

maybe not that they can't do but that

they take a longer time to do that they

struggle to do or that they they modify

the way that they do them um to include

an an assist because they know that

without the assist they they they

couldn't do it and it's you know so you

know when people say what do you mean by

an insist I'm like well they

definitely need to hold on to a handrail

when they descend a flight of stairs

that's 10 ft wide there there's no way

they would go down the middle of it

because they know that they maybe not

strong enough to do it when they get

into some a car they they have to hold

on to the handle because they just they

don't have the leg strength to leave

themselves and some you know there's

Small Things subtle but they're a sign

um when you resistance train and you

know uh you you slow that down to the

point that it's imperceptible at age 50

uh into your 60s I think you're going to

start to see touches of it I'd be

surprised if there's anybody in their

70s that can say that they operate as

well as they did in their 30s but

there's a few freaks out there so uh

Never Say Never but um it's all about

changing the trajectory of that downward

curve with respect to anabolic

resistance and pushing back as much as

you can again coming back to our two

inputs exercise and protein intake talk

about where somebody needs to really

consider those and start optimizing

those early in the conversation you

mentioned the hormonal benefits somebody

would get at a younger age when does

that start to decline and when should

somebody start to be more cognizant of

what we're talking about today to make

sure that they're optimizing for at

least maintaining if not building muscle

mass there's probably a few

considerations I mean the the growth

aspect of you know when you were growing

and being a kid you know for most of us

growth stops at 18 19 at at the most I

think we enjoy a Heyday in our early and

mid 20s where you know the machine is

still fired up you might not be growing

as much but man you can you can put a

lot of calories in the machine and if

you're a pretty active person it's like

you know you don't gain weight at all

like it just you just burn that stuff

off and then something slows down uh

probably you do less I mean everything

as it ages does less earthworms people

it just happens dogs cats everything and

um you know that's probably part of the

equation but the hormonal benefit is

essentially the anabolic drive from a

hormonal perspective is is not lost but

it's definitely almost gone um and so

now you have to really dial in I mean I

think the big answer is that the most

important of the two not the diet is

unimportant but the the far more

important of the two to maintain muscle

and fitness and you know op optimize as

you said uh your chances is is activity

and exercise so you know keep those keep

those up and don't let them usually

people there there are phases in

people's lives where they just they kind

of give up on activity so you know going

from middle school to high school a lot

of girls just drop out of you know they

they might do the mandatory it's one or

two years a fette and then they they

don't they're they're not physically

active like pretty much again like

that's it uh from high school to you

know if you go to college uh is another

big one where people drop out of

activity programs um people get married

have kids uh it's another you know boom

it's a big drop and how do you find time

Etc so you know it it's about realizing

some of those transitions are probably

natural points where you need to make

physical activity a prior and not let it

not be a part of your life or uh build

it into other activities that you do and

um you know realize that you're still

being Physically Active but you maybe

not are hitting the gym uh but it's but

at a certain point you know I want to

say probably in your late 40s early 50s

you begin to realize that um you're

definitely weaker you're definitely

don't have the

endurance uh and that maybe there's a

few things that you're going to have a

hard your time doing and you know so if

you wanted to you know is there a

turning point uh I'd say you know

there's no turning point you should

probably be doing it the whole time but

uh somewhere in your late 40s if you're

not making a switch if you weren't

active before or if you were doing some

but not a lot you might want to think

about doing a little bit more and making

a little bit more structure and figuring

out a some things you enjoy and then B

some things that you can you can stick

to and um

uh things things get a whole lot better

given the fact that there are these two

different

inputs how much leeway do we have

between leaning into one versus the

other at different phases of life and

where my head goes as I bring that up is

the extreme if somebody's bedridden

because they have some kind of traumatic

injury but we could even come back to

what you're just talking about there

different phases of life is going to

allow for different amounts of physical

activity so we'll start with the diet

piece somebody who for whatever reason

isn't moving their body they're not

getting that

input can they up their protein or just

maintaining protein to the level we're

talking about today to still get MPS

stimulated how much of it needs to come

from the exercise as well and then I

want to hit it from the other side

somebody that's not cognizant of their

protein and this ties back kind of to

what we talked about before the woman

who's not hitting her protein goals but

is doing resistance training but let's

talk about it from both those aspects

and get into some Nuance here okay so my

writer statement right off the bat is in

this discussion because I've kind of you

know mashed this out on social media uh

and taken taken my my licks is that

we're goingon to take the focus off of

like we're going to take off the myopic

lens that everything in life is about

weight loss or weight gain okay and

we're going to just talk about muscle so

that that from that

perspective exercise is hands down the

behavior that you need to adopt and so

if you I you know if you eat Ultra

processed food you go to McDonald's and

all this sort of stuff and I'm not

saying that's the extreme of course and

everybody oh that's terrible and and it

is it is it's not good don't don't get

me wrong but and you are an actor

person um you're going to be much better

off than somebody who's

inactive

and follows all of the protein

recommendations and etc

etc put them both

together you know you're way better off

don't don't get me wrong but but the but

the hands down winner from a health

standpoint from a muscle standpoint and

you know let's you know like I said

weight loss out of the question because

that's energy rebalance and you know a

few people think it's carbohydrates and

Insulin but whatever um exercise is is

the health behavior that you need to

adopt now if you're overweight it's

entirely different if you're overweight

and flat out uh weight is lost in the

kitchen or through your diet um but

muscles and fitness are made in the gym

and the when you look at all the sum

total I think of the

evidence you know most of it

observational admit but in both

directions uh the risk ratios for people

who are physically active in terms of

all and I mean all major metabolic cardi

metabolic as well as can 13 out of 26

most common types of cancers uh you have

a low risk the more active you are

there's probably a dose

response um we know that for sure uh you

can't you can't even touch the degree of

RK reduction uh with just about any

dietary intervention um maybe barring a

few sort of lipid issues and heart

disease and pre-existing risk Etc you

you you can you know you do you do

yourself some good by eating well no

question about it but the physical

activity aspect of things is

really the

core um and I know I'll probably upset a

lot of people by saying that but the

best of all worlds which generally

describes a lot of people that argue

that one or the other is important is is

to do both or or to do both to the

degree that you can you know uh like

there's a lot of talk right now about

about alcohol is it good for you is it

bad for you and everything and I don't

know about you but I do like to have a

beer a glass of wine I I don't drink a

lot in fact you know compared to my my

former self I'm almost a t toer but but

do like to have a glass every now and

again but um so maybe in doing so I'm

I'm shaving part of my lifespan or my

health my like my health span off or

whatever but I do it in the context of

sitting down my family my friends and I

think I don't know I think this is a

pretty good scenario to enjoy a social

drink um so uh you know what what's my

justification for doing that well I

don't know maybe that's why I exercise

that I can you know exercise forgives a

lot of sins and I know people have

credited me with that phrase it's not

mine I think I stole it from Mike Joiner

who's a friend of mine um like all good

things you know they ripped off from

somebody else but uh it really does like

you can even be a smoker and so to give

you the most extreme you know there's a

habit that you know if if you if you're

doing it like your risks for you know

everything blows up but if you're a

smoker and you're active and I get it

there's not a lot of active smokers but

if you are you're even at a lower risk

than than somebody who smokes and does

nothing so if exercise and there's no

dietary intervention that can do that so

I I think it's exercise for if we're

going to really Le lean into one for

somebody middle-age right now and say

they haven't been exercising or at least

regularly let's give them a plan because

there are so many different types of

excise

intensities if they just want to

maintain and maybe build a little bit of

muscle what do they need to do yeah um I

think that there's a few things

first I mean Behavior change

particularly when it comes to Lifestyle

is I'll just you know flat out say it's

difficult particularly if you are

middleaged so you're you I don't know

40s 50s we'll call that

middle-aged um it's difficult and

particularly when it comes I think to a

form of exercise a lot of people uh

first we know from self-report anyway

most people about 70% of probably the US

and Canadian population do not do any

form of strengthening activity and

that's not lifting weights that's

strengthening activities so engaging in

yoga Pilates and lots of other things

that I'm I'm they're they're

strengthening for sure but they're

they're not weightlifting and

Progressive overload that I would call

strengthening activity but uh so you got

to find something you enjoy uh and you

got to find something that motivates you

on some level to continue doing that's

those are you know uh lot of discussions

on social media about lift lighter lift

lower lift this lift that and I'm like

how about we get the 70% lifting that

would be that would be a huge you know

from a public health standpoint huge

change um and so I'm like just find

something you can do and you come back

to doing and I think that that's that's

crucial

right uh

opportunity uh do you have a gym nearby

do you have something nearby do you do

you do it alone do you like working

alone or do you prefer to work in

groups do you have the means to afford a

personal trainer if not do you is there

a why close by um if you don't have the

financial means you know can you can you

afford $50 to get a set of uh resistance

bands because you know programs show

that they work they're they're not gonna

you know you're not going to climb on to

the podium in Paris but you're you're G

to get stronger if you if you're able to

do this and do it consistently so try

and find the intrinsic motivation that

pushes a button that says to you that

this is because most people site they

don't have time I think actually the

real speak behind that

is I don't value this activity enough to

make the time to do it and I think that

that's a that's a you know a nuanced

maybe difference between I don't have

time um but it's it's you know and I

think that's easy it's an even easier

excuse if that's what you want to call

it for somebody to not lift weights than

for somebody because everybody you know

you say go get some more exercise and so

you just walk out your front door that's

easy right um and and you know again

walking is great like you know awesome

great activity um but if you want to get

stronger and I do think as you get

older um you're going to be limited

eventually by your strength and if not

your strength like your power your

ability to you know be strong and do it

and it's getting out of a chair is the

ultimate lift right once you can't do

that you're looking at full-time

institutionalized care or a lot of uh

support around you to help you with your

activities of daily living so find

something you enjoy that's the biggest

thing I think when it comes to power is

that something that people are going to

gain naturally just by resistance

training or is there specific exercises

we want to do uh you probably gain a

little bit of it as you get stronger

just because you know uh Power uh

incorporates force and strength um but

the timing part like doing it fast does

require a little bit of focusing on

doing things relatively rapidly as soon

as you you introduce you know velocity

of movement into an equation it um

there's a safety aspect that comes along

with that but if you talk to older

people it's interesting how quickly they

grasp the the slowness or the quickness

of the activity they generally think

about it in terms of how fast they walk

and then know you just don't move as

fast and and when you begin to train

them and you know even if you train them

in in fast walking as an example um they

get that pretty quickly and so you can

train them pretty quickly to be able to

understand that it's the speed of how

you know doing things that is maybe a

little bit more important than big loads

and and trying to you know press you

know 100 pounds over your head but um if

you can take 10 pounds and a broom stick

and you can push it over your head you

can do it fast that's probably uh a

better form of practice for them you

mentioned the exercise bands and

obviously that's really low barrier to

entry for most people you can order the

money Amazon cost is relatively low but

I want to try and go even lower than

that for the person that's not doing any

resistance training right now to get

them in the habit to get them moving and

and building strength and building

muscle what's the

easiest say 3 to five exercises they can

do at home just using their body weight

you know just air squats maybe push-ups

things like that that they can build off

of over time but just to get them

started here sure uh so it's five I mean

uh there's really only three types of

exercises there's there's pushing so

you're you're pushing something away

from you you're either doing it laying

on your back and that's traditional

bench uh I do prefer the you know older

people at least because very rarely do I

find myself on my back and trying to

push something off it but you know this

sort of thing uh and pushing over your

head so there's a seated press and an

overhead press um there's a pulling uh

exercise generally I I do like the you

know arms above the head and pulling

down so in other words you know a lat

pull down or while you're seeded in

pulling something towards you and you

can easily mimic those sorts of things I

think with with bands or with things

around the house uh if you have a towel

uh even and then as you said like can

air squat right so it's a body weight

squat you're getting up and you're going

down to sort of a comfortable level I

don't need you know ass to the grass I

don't need you know crunching your your

you know basically full coverage of your

hamstring over your calf I don't need

that but

you know that's that's it right um and

if you can do those and cross your arms

across your chest get up and out of a

chair try it five times the next time

can you do six can you do seven can you

do eight can you do you know Etc

progress that way let's come back to our

muscle physiology and talk about

somebody doing an air squat and bring in

the MPS and muscle protein breakdown

what's happening while they're doing

that afterwards and then I want to get

into the Nuance of providing the bricks

at the right time to build that muscle

up yeah I mean we I be kind think before

I do answer this question I mean we do

know uh it's actually a a he's a former

postdoc of mine a guy named Lee Breen

over in the UK whose group did some work

using bands so I and I I couldn't tell

you about body weight stuff but there

are a few I think exercises that or

studies that have sort of used body

weight and and and that sort of thing I

mean it's just about working to a high

level of effort uh I use you know

people's ability to perceive effort as

as a good external indicator of how hard

you're working and so everybody

understands effort I think at a sort of

a global level of you know you doesn't

require sweat or everything but if

you're doing a push-up um you or a squat

you do it to the point where you think I

could probably do one or two more here

but if I do I might I might you know I

might fail I might I might get fatigued

I might fall over I might make it not

safe I might you know hurt something or

another um so I'm G to stop but but I've

just exerted myself and and maybe on a

scale out of 10 where 10 out of 10 is

like red and it's that's maximal I'm at

a nine

and that almost certainly will turn on

muscle protein synthesis so it will

increase the rate at which bricks go

into the wall uh or back into the wall I

mean I think you know remembering that

turnover concept if break down is

pulling old bricks out we can actually

recycle them and put them back in the

wall and in fact we we do that

relatively efficiently um when we're

young we do it extraordinarily

efficiently when we're older not quite

so but the point is um you're you're

improving the recycling of those bricks

and so before we talk about provision of

exogenous protein and stimulating more

uh bricks going in I think that that's

that's pretty clear that'll that'll

happen no question about it to

understand the physiology a little bit

more what if somebody isn't providing

protein through the

diet and they're exercising and not

providing the bricks you mentioned the

Recycled bricks

what will the body do in that case is it

going to pull from muscle and you're

going to start losing protein from the

muscle at that point or how does the

body respond when it's not provided the

raw

materials for MPS so the thought

experiment is you just imagine you have

somebody and all they're doing is

lifting weights and they're not eating

right and I mean I you know it's an odd

scenario to think about but I mean all

it would do is so compared to somebody

who was not eating not lifting weights

they would lose muscle very fast the

person who is lifting weights would lose

muscle but much much slower uh so you're

hanging on to more of your muscle when

you're lifting weights than you are if

you're you know not lifting weights and

and protein is ruled out at the equation

so you know I mean I think you can sort

of take that one to the bank and say but

the best you could do would be 100%

Recycling and abs absolute you know 100%

conservation of all the bricks that came

out all got put back into the wall and

we know that doesn't happen um so you're

going to lose uh some muscle but you're

going to lose it far slower than

somebody who's not lifting weights you

know again to the point of you know if

you could pick something to do what

would it be and it would definitely be

exercise over trying to tweak the diet

which is you know it's a more subtle

um arrangement of the equation so to

speak one of the things you hear is when

you start losing muscle you can't

rebuild that or regain that you can only

maintain what you've what you still have

at that point yeah is there any truth to

that so I think one of the one of the uh

scenarios that we've sort of championed

that I think is a a threshold moment for

older people is this disuse

event um and when people what are you

talking about and I mean so we we use

the term disuse to refer to when we

immobilize a muscle so we put a it's not

a cast but we might put a brace on

someone's leg as if they just torn their

ACL um and so it takes the the weight

off of the leg they crutch around uh and

their leg atrophies and it atrophies

fairly rapidly the difference is if

you're a younger person and you take the

brace off um and I don't do any sort of

rehab at all you just you know go back

to walking around you regain the muscle

if you're an older person and we did the

same experiment and we've done a few of

these experiments they don't gain the

muscle back you have to work very very

hard to gain that muscle back you have

to go into the gym and lift weights you

you just don't get it back so I think

that maybe that's the scenario that

people think like uh I don't know about

the maintenance part like you're

definitely you know at some point you're

on the down slope there's no question

and it's the difference between you know

the slope like this or the this you know

a steep slope versus a shallow slope uh

but if you have that disuse event it's a

rapid decline so you know forget about

the um the brace on the leg or you you

fracture your leg or your arm or

whatever but going into hospital and

getting sick and spending three or four

days even five days in bed uh as an

older person you lose a lot of muscle um

more so than a younger person and more

so is a percentage of the muscle that

you had because you've got less and then

the difference is on the backside of

that event you leave the hospital

because you're you're well um but

there's no attempt made to rehabilitate

you from your your your bed rest event

and you know pull you back to where you

were before if you're a young person no

sweat you you just do what you do or

maybe you do go to the gym or you do a

few things and and the muscle comes back

and so is the strength might take a

while but it comes back as an older

person it generally represents a

permanent loss it's gone uh it's very

hard to get it back unless you work very

hard and and the very hard you know

prescription on the backside of just

being sick in in hospital is for the

most part pretty minimal this kind of

ties back to something I brought up

before and your example there of being

in the hospital somebody be tuned into

to what we're talking about today and

say they're middle-aged and they break a

leg and they know that they're going to

be in the hospital for a couple of weeks

and and not

moving what would you do personally in

that case dietary wise to try and

preserve best you can so we have a

phrase that runs around the lab is that

it's hard to out diet in activity uh you

have a hard time you know dieting your

way out of not being active like it's

just difficult um and it's it's even

tougher a tougher proposition to out

diet or nutrition your way out of

preventing muscle loss but there's a few

and I think it's that they're pretty

fine grained uh things that you could do

first it's it's you know higher protein

higher quality protein and you know by

quality we're talking about the content

of nine of the 20 Bricks that are

essential we call them essential amino

acids one in particular and that's

Lucine as an amino acid um probably a

creatin uh could help um so as a

supplement and uh high do Omega-3s uh

which again this was a former postdoc of

mine and he came in and convinced me

that we needed to give people Omega-3s

because they got into the muscle and it

really wasn't my thing I'll be honest I

was like okay sure you know let's try an

experiment um and when we did it in

young women uh it complet like not

completely that's not true it it halfed

the amount of atrophy that these young

women saw but they got to take the

Omega-3s before they went in and we put

the brace on their leg so if you're if

you don't know you're G to break your

leg right um then you know you better be

taking some Omega-3s but if you break

your leg then I'd be prescribing some

high dose Omega-3s and trying to prevent

as much atrophy as I could and and and I

I would be the complete you know pain in

the butt for the probably the the nurses

at the nurses station because I'd be the

person trying to you know get on my

crutches and and and get out of the bed

and you know do all the things that that

that you know and there's a lot of

reasons for this nurses just don't like

they don't want to lose control of the

patient and not know where the patient

is right so it's because

they're charting and it's like ah you

know where's that you know where they

gone again right so that's a concern if

you're older because you could fall but

you know when you're younger maybe not

as much but if you get the right people

uh then man I get on my horse and I'd be

as active as I could in the hospital

expand more on the creatine piece

outside of this special case scenario

yeah for muscle health and building

muscle and for the mental aspect as well

well I have a short supplement shelf but

it it includes creatin um I don't know

that it does much for me from a muscle

standpoint I'm kind of hoping it might

but um I feel good when I take it but uh

uh but I take it more for what it might

do cognitively um this is you know sort

of a really novice area of research uh

that the effects right now you know

being completely honest I think are

they're pretty small but the studies are

small and I don't know that we've got

the right outcomes but your brain stores

creatin as well as your muscle does and

you know energy crises in your brain are

actually you know one of the key parts

of um lots of syndromes of dementia uh

and uh cognitive impairment are due to

declines in the ability of your brain to

energetically produce the ATP it needs

you know sort of like your muscle needs

that same ATP to generate force your

brain needs ATP to continue to work so

fosho creatin high energy store creatin

the precursor to it your brain stores it

we've got animal data uh that shows that

you know people who get traumatic brain

injuries or certain syndromes and we get

you know a stroke or something like that

uh these animals do a lot better when

they're on Crea and and so I'm kind of

banking on some of that rubbing off

because because the main reason people

go oh like what you know the effects so

small or whatever and I'm like so what

other things do we have that you know

lower the risk for dementia and

everything you know and they're like

well I don't know exercise I'm like oh

I'm already doing

that it's like good diet I'm like I'm

pretty sure I got most of that dialed in

and I'm like this is you know we don't

have drugs we don't have a preventive

drug and we don't even have a good

treatment drug uh out there you get

diagnosed with

dementia um and a lot of it is just like

so you know here's a pamphlet for you

here's a pamphlet for your your

caregiver

um come back in a in a year and and

let's see you know we do another

cognitive test and I'll tell you how

good you're doing or not doing and you

know here's something on sleep here's

something on um you know if they're

Progressive enough here's something on

activity and diet and and you know I

hope it goes well for you we got a

couple of drugs out there they're pretty

pretty crummy and they slow the decline

um but um even there

exercise pretty impressive in terms of

the effects it has doesn't nope not it's

you know exercise is not a cure right

but it reduces your risk tremendously

and even if you have dementia reduces

the rate of decline um pretty

substantially too so when it comes to

creatine dosage are you a fan of loading

maintaining with a certain dose cycling

on and off how do you look at all that

low dose like three to five grams a day

every day just a scoop generally goes in

with the yogurt in the morning I didn't

mention that should have mentioned that

but yeah that's where it goes I I I mean

I think the the the loading um protocols

uh if you went all the way back and you

know I'm old enough to remember when Kon

wasn't a supplement and Eric

Holman and uh Roger Harris and a few

others you know were starting to get

into this stuff and uh they thought they

you know this these were the same guys

you know Eric Holman worked with Jonas

Bergstrom who made the needle that we

take muscle pieces with right and so

maybe he thought the glycogen loading

which kind of came from those guys as

well was the same thing with the

loading and so the doses that they were

prescribing back then uh were way over

what was needed and so a ton of

would appear in the urine of of

individuals that did those doses so I

don't think that's necessary I think

most people now it's sort of you know 3

to five grams a day and you can you can

build stores up um if you respond

because not everybody responds to

creatin um and you you know you're

you're you're good from there cycle on

and off uh if I miss a day or two or if

I go on holid and don't bring my

supplement supplemental creatin I'm okay

it it's all good um I I know it's going

to be there when I come back uh some

people they see it differently and I get

it but um I I I don't think it's a big

deal so you mentioned the fact you're

not huge into supplements y Omega-3s

were mentioned creatine any others that

are on the Shelf vitamin D vitamin D is

about it um I live in you know Northern

latitude far enough away from the

equator that in wintertime My Sunshine

exposure is it's pretty limited uh I

think the prevalence data of you know o

overt um insufficiency def efficiency of

vitamin D is is enough to make me think

that I I should take that supplement in

particularly in Winter uh I don't worry

about it in the summer I don't get a ton

of sun exposure but um enough that I'm

think I'm okay um once you get Beyond

you know you've brought someone who's

deficient to sufficient or insufficient

to sufficient I don't think there's any

role for vitamin D and going from you

know sufficient to you know hyp her you

know vitamin D levels but um I do think

that you've got to take care of

insufficiency or deficiency and then

from a muscle perspective if not from a

bone perspective and probably lots of

other perspectives as well um vitamin D

uh would be my my other supplement for

sure a few minutes back you got into

some specifics around amino acids yeah

and up until this point in general we've

been talking about protein as a whole

yeah but let's get into some of the

Nuance here with amino acids quality of

protein often times protein is just

looked that as a whole an umbrella term

Yeah you mentioned Lucine the essential

amino acids how do we Factor all that in

when it comes to dietary

protein yeah um so the brick wall again

because it's you know it works um it's

got 20 Bricks in it uh 11 of those

bricks we can make we can we can bake

that brick and we people think about

bricks that like they're all the same

size and shape and everything it's not

it's not the case in in the human body

so the 20 amino acids the 20 building

blocks that we have um in protein are

they're like different shapes if that's

the right way of saying it you know ones

it's sort of like an interlocking brick

and ones you know maybe they're

different colors I don't know um and you

know we can bake and make 11 of those

bricks nine of them we can't and nine of

them we need to get from our diet so you

know uh meat if we eat it very rich

source of protein very rich source of

essential amino acids eggs um Dairy um

when we if you want to go to plant then

soy is probably kind of top of the Heap

uh there are you know nuts and seeds and

legumes and everything else have have

all of these essential amino acids I

know a lot of people they go oh plants

are deficient I'm like we got to stop

that they aren't deficient they're

they're lower um but they're not

deficient and you know when you eat

these things you're bringing in these

other nine bricks they're essential

because if you know if you were stuck in

a desert island and you'd imagine that

there's a protein source and it only

contains the uh 11 bricks or it contains

11 and they say three of the nine that

we need eventually you're going to die

like it's it take take a long time but

you know we just can't if we can't make

it and we're not eating it then we don't

Thrive so the way I kind of explain it

is there's one brick in particular that

is not just um a substrate for building

a wall it's actually the brick that when

it arrives it's like it turns on the

process that says hey it's time to make

the wall so I kind of you know it's the

player coach brick it's it's it's a

player it's part of the wall but it's

also the one that goes okay it's time

time to build it's time to make the the

the brick wall here and so we call that

a it's a signal uh it turns on a

signaling pathway or signaling process

and that brick is uh is Lucine it's a

branch chain amino acid which I'm sure

probably a lot of your listeners have

heard about um and it's the one branch

chain of the three the other two I know

everybody talks about the branch chain

amino acids there three of them there's

Lucine isol Lucine and veine but it's

Lucine that is the exclusive kind of

trigger brick it gets the whole process

started it makes the process sort of you

know turn on um and then the analogy I

use is it's like it's not like flipping

a switch it's on it's off it's like a

dimmer switch though you get some

looseing and the light comes on a little

bit you get more loosing that turns on

and that at a certain point you can

flood the system with loosing and you

can try and turn but you can't make the

lights any brighter so the the whole

brick wall process is you know when the

lights are on it's going and it's loose

scine that that that drives that process

and how much Lucine do we

need and does it need to be within a

specific period of

time and what

foods contain a good amount of that yeah

um I wish I could give you a great

answer to how much do we need um there's

a few people have tried to do this we

don't really have a great answer uh I

think Don Layman uh Lane Norton did some

great work with with rodents um but in

humans it sort of seems to be that

between two to three grams of Lucine per

meal uh is how much we need and

everybody goes well you know how much

protein is that and everything and the

answer is you know of course because

science it depends um because not every

protein

you know as you intimated is enriched in

in Lucine and so some proteins are what

we call higher quality uh so animal

Source proteins generically speaking are

higher quality than plant Source

proteins and so you need less of them to

get that amount of Lucine uh the highest

would come from dairy sources so milk

yogurt cheese that sort of thing

and uh the highest of the you know of

all the prot proteins that we know is is

whey protein or a combination of milk

proteins which is whey and

casine uh but let's just say that um

probably 10% of all protein in in milk

is uh comprised of Lucine as as a sort

of a ballpark estimate the rest of

protein that's out there like meat it

would be about 7% and everything else

eggs probably about 5 to 6%

um most legumes and soy it's about 5 to

six% so you're you know what you really

want is um you know if you had I'm gonna

make the math easy so I can do it at

like 100 grams of protein and you had 5%

you get five grams of Lucine so you

don't need that much you need probably

let's say half of that if you were just

eating that protein but within a meal um

that's enriched maybe you've got a glass

of milk then you know that's 10 % by

composition Lucine and you've got you

know maybe there's some eggs in there

then you've got another rich source of

Lucine and it it all adds up and because

we break these things down into its

constituents and they turn on the

process of protein synthesis given the

importance of Lucine specifically is it

available as a supplement and any value

in taking that with say a breakfast

making sure you're hitting that

threshold it is available uh as a

supplement um it doesn't taste great uh

it it's bitter

um we spend time making these things up

in the lab because we mess around with

these things you stick your finger and

taste all the amino acids which I know

not everybody's done but believe me the

most bitter of them is

Lucine um value I you know again the

answer is it depends if you're if you're

if you're that low six to eight grams of

protein person uh there's probably value

in taking Lucine as a supplement um not

a huge fan of trying to you know make up

for what food lacks but um it's

definitely convenient uh but if you're

getting you know the 30 40 grams of

protein that we talked about per meal uh

there there's I don't see any advantage

to adding Lucine to what what is

probably already a sufficient dose so I

I don't think so uh in that

situation um but supplements are

definitely uh Convenient Food first but

not necessarily you know uh supplement

free is maybe the way to go well let's

expand out and talk about protein

supplements as a whole you mentioned

earlier with your yogurt adding a

protein supplement at least sometimes

yeah if somebody wants to get one of

those what's the best one to get and how

much can we rely on that to make up for

a lack of protein in the diet say we're

having just like and again hypothetical

but just to as a thought experiment

somebody having say like a cereal really

low in protein but yet they're adding a

scoop of protein to their milk and

really ramping that up yeah does a

certain percentage is what I'm getting

at need to come from the food itself or

can we basically just supplement our way

to hitting our threshold yeah uh so lot

to unpack in that one but you know so

first I don't like to name names but I

I'll give you sort of my general

guideline for for supplements so um

particularly protein um based

supplements so first uh I always say

find a brand that is popularly available

so in other words don't go on the

internet and search and find the

cheapest one and it's you know it takes

three weeks to get here and you wonder

like where's it coming from from chances

are it's not coming from North America

and the risk then for contamination and

when I say contamination I'm not just

talking about you know it might have a

band substance in there which matters if

you're going to hop on the podium in

Paris but maybe not for your Mortals but

uh it doesn't contain what it says it

contains uh it's got you know all kinds

of things in there that you just don't

want like the quality control in the

factory is no nowhere near as good so

generally I try to say by domestic if

that's the right way to say things um

from that standpoint then I look for

something that bears it's usually an NSF

label uh that that is a quality

assurance label um I like stuff that

comes from GNC I think it's a you know a

pretty reputable chain they've got good

products in there they'll tell you the

ones that are made in the United States

or made in Canada or you know and and

those are the ones that I would buy

more money doesn't mean it's

better it might be that it's got the

best advertising and the best reputation

or whatever but you know you can you can

you know I hate to say this but like

Costco does a pretty good

job their protein supplements are are

are good and relatively cheap so is

their creating for the record

um you know after that the the the

question of uh you know putting it into

the low protein containing meal I think

that's a fine strategy um if you're not

willing to kind of choose more food in

in in other words i' sort of preach a

food F food first approach and the main

reason for that is the contained in food

are lots of other nutrients that we need

anyway and and I'm you know I'm fond of

saying if you're again you're stuck on a

desert island and all you have was

protein powder

after a while you'd be dead too like you

could get all the amino acids but you

don't have you know the calcium the

vitamin D and all the vitamins that you

need that you're getting from other

things in your diet fruits and

vegetables and Grains and cereals and

and and all kinds of other things

so that's why food is important I think

it you know there's nothing supplement

wise it's really hard to kind of make it

all up and food kind of does it if you

eat a for a varied diet

um what it does though uh is get you to

the amount of protein that you need and

it does it in a very convenient manner

because you know protein powders are

concentrated isolated sources of protein

and so they don't contain carbs they

don't contain fats they they they're

just giving you the protein and so if

energy is an issue for you and you don't

want to over consume energy then what's

wrong with a protein supplement I don't

have any issues with that I I think all

on before we go any further writer

statement you know protein does not

cause your kidneys to fail just just

just doesn't if you want more if you got

show notes I can add the references for

you we've done several meta analysis

does not cause kidney failure it just

doesn't um doesn't cause your bones to

go soft you know there's a lot of things

up there but um you know because

everybody that's the first push back I

get to go oh it doesn't protein cut your

kidneys to fail I'm like no it doesn't

do that um yeah without going any deeper

into that one I'll just uh give you all

the references you like can you talk

more about the bone one talk about that

myth where that came from and and why

that's seeming to hold yeah it's you

know it's it's sort of a a golden oldie

um you eat some protein uh

protein we we'll skip over the details

but makes your blood acidic uh acidic or

an acid load in your blood uh causes

calcium to Leech from your bones in an

attempt to balance the

acidity um you lose calcium in your

urine and your bones become brittle and

weaker it's called the acid Ash

hypothesis so the acid is your blood the

ash is the you know the bone Ash or the

calcium that comes out um that's

completely false actually when you dial

in calcium in terms of an intake and

vitamin D for your bone protein is bone

supportive because as I said um if I

didn't um already uh a certain

proportion of your your bone is is

actually protein it's like it's not just

a stick of chalk or otherwise bones

would break all the time so I I think

it's important to realize that you're

not going to make your bones brittle or

weak by having a high ER protein diet

but again it's still important to get

calcium and vitamin D dialed in because

they're the two main bone supported

nutrients for sure one of the other

things you hear is that

protein can impact longevity and if

you're looking to live a long life you

want to decrease your protein intake

which is countered to everything we're

talking about today so speak to that is

there any truth there in any studies or

where does that come from yeah so I

think the really important part to

realize is a lot like the energy

restriction trials which have been done

in you know everything from mice all the

way up to um primates so basically

monkeys

uh everything shows that as soon as you

get to sort of primates the effects are

a little bit equivocal so so to be clear

there's no human trial that we can say

this causes this in humans so it's basic

basically

observational uh and you could make the

argument that you know more protein than

people live long or live shorter excuse

me uh or have more health issues if

that's the right way of saying it and I

think when you dig and and I mean really

dig around in these data uh the answer

to that question is is is very gray and

there's nothing that makes me think that

a higher protein diet in the range that

we're talking about and I'm not talking

about you know uh all carnivore type

diets which are very different and that

makes me think think you know there's

there's something there that's

shortening somebody's life um certain

nutritional observational studies higher

sources of certain proteins red meat is

the big one um but really nothing that

shows that you know mid or later life or

even early life protein consumption

shortens life in fact a study just came

out not too long ago showing that if

anything uh some forms of protein plant

protein in particular so it's not the

protein per se maybe it's where it comes

from um can actually help you live

longer and I think one of the key parts

that you know longevity is one thing

right living long is is is one thing um

what we're talking about is is Health

span a little bit so living well uh and

I've you know made the point to suffer

people I have no interest in living to

be 120 and feeling like I'm 120 I might

say that I might be have a different

opinion when I get to that age if I get

to that age um but I'm talking about

having full Mobility being able to move

around being you know hopefully as as

disease free as possible low medication

basically you know running my own show

uh from a cognitive standpoint and uh

doing as much as I can so that's that's

Health span uh and then you know the

Nuance gets even even

more difficult to say well eating more

of or less of you know without going to

sort of extremes um is going to affect

your your health span so I don't think

that there's there's nothing at least in

my mind from a human stpoint that makes

me think that protein is there's

something damning about it that you're

GNA live you know a shorter life or

you're going to experience a downturn in

health particularly and here's my rider

my outstate which is um if you're

physically active have you heard of any

acute or chronic negative effects from

somebody hyperd doing in protein say

they're eating a lot of meat they're

supplementing with whey and they're just

really upping that

protein just for completeness have you

seen anything go Ary when that happens

I'm familiar with

um several people that I've spoken to uh

that not necessarily done research

search with but just you they say oh you

know you know something about protein

well I'm getting ready for and it's

usually a competition related to

physique um bodybuilding or or figure

competit you know competitiveness or

something like that where people are

just doing some diabolical things and so

they're they're on very low calorie

diets they know the protein can help

them maybe hang on to a bit of muscle

they're working out at the same time

um and it's hard for me to dissociate

the fact that they're eating next to

nothing from the fact that they're

getting like the highest I've seen is

somewhere around six grams of protein

per kilo um and this was in a

pretty I called her small uh female

figure competitor getting ready for a

competition and and pretty much all she

was eating was protein uh and she could

barely string a sentence together but I

don't know whether that was because of

the protein or she was eating like I

think it was like you know 700 calories

a day or something and was down to some

redonkulous low level of body fat so I I

like I don't think anything terrible

happens um but but it can uh in those

scenarios it's probably related more to

caloric restriction and

dehydration and an over obsession with

with protein I I I have talked to a few

people that are that are carnivores and

and they they seem fine they they you

you know they seem to thrive um

personally I I just couldn't do that and

I have no intention of trying but some

people like a lot of I mean surely

what's typified if we're still around is

the our our adaptability as a species

right so I get the feeling that in

certain times we can push ourselves into

some pretty tight corners and we can be

okay and and

survive thriving is a different question

now lots of people will say I feel fine

and I'm like maybe you are um but also

um maybe the right stressor hasn't come

around and really tested the system but

uh I've never seen anything too bizarre

but I I don't hang around with a lot of

people that push themselves into those

extremes um so somebody that wants to

accentuate the workouts using a protein

powder any value in taking it in a

bottle to the gym and shaking that and

drinking right before a workout during a

workout right after a

workout anything whatsoever for people

looking for a slight Edge no no none at

all no I I mean it's it's it's hard for

me to say because you know of course uh

I I did have the experience and I relate

this one um the person should R remain

nameless but uh one semester I taught a

a a junior level uh nutrition and

Metabolism class

and I had a Gold Medal winner in my

class and this person had just won a

gold medal at an Olympics and so every

time I said something and then this

person put up their hand I would call on

them and they would relate an anecdote

in their preparation up to the Olympics

I you know like I I lost the room right

so so the anecdote is proportional to

the Su success of the person who gives

it and uh let's just say is that um you

know so if somebody who wins a gold

medal said well you know I took

supplement X I took it to the gym and I

slammed it as soon as I was done my

workout then it doesn't matter what I

say so let's just say is that if maybe

if you're climbing onto the podium in

Paris or wherever you are um those last

little very nuanced details begin to

matter I think for most mere mortals

the broad Strokes matter a little bit

more but um yeah if I get a chuckle over

anything it's the sipping on the protein

shake during the workout but um

generally uh you know not to paint with

too broad a brush you've got an XY

chromosome set you you uh yeah it's it's

it's a it's a guy thing I women drink

water how do you feel about using

protein dietary protein or supplementing

the diet as a weight weight loss

strategy satiety thermal effect of

protein any other nuances there that

people might want to utilize I mean

everything we have on um you know pure

diet induced weight loss so caloric

restriction so forget about you know uh

OIC or you know whatever uh glp1 drugs

but um protein there's a small Edge uh I

think it's satiety I think it's probably

the thermic effect I think it's

uh probably you're hanging on to a bit

more muscle uh there could be a protein

what's called protein leverage and the

idea there is that um when you're not

consuming enough protein uh there's some

I'll call it a protein stat that s that

you know it's a neural signal that says

go and seek more food because you're not

getting enough protein and so you eat

more energy to try and make up for the

lower

protein it works well in animals and and

insects and lots of things and people it

probably works up to a point it seems

and then the effects of you know sort of

going beyond that you know usually about

15 to 17% of energy you you don't lever

down energy intake um but for all the

reasons you just mentioned I think it's

uh you know as a substrate I think it's

it's the one macro that if people are

saying well I'm going to restrict energy

what should I focus on and I I think

it's a high herb

relative protein intake and consuming

overall less energy and if you're really

bent on you know insulin causes fat

retention and it's the reason why we're

all obese then restrict simple

carbohydrates at the same time and

replace it with a little bit of protein

I think that would be a you know a

pretty good strategy well let's tie in

metabolic health and go deeper into this

piece earlier when we talked about

anabolic resistance you brought up

insulin resistance you just brought up

the carbohydrate piece one of the

benefit of putting muscle on is the

benefits to our metabolic

Health talk about that specific Lane and

why somebody would want to put on muscle

for that specific benefit yeah I mean I

I I think everybody's sort of familiar

with the idea of of our resting

metabolic rate so you know even if

you're just laying in bed and doing

nothing we're always burning energy to

keep you know our heart pumping and all

the pumps in our body that consume

energy to keep ions and sodium and

potassium in check and you know we're

still digesting and everything else like

that so you know your resting metabolic

rate for most people um is the largest

single energy expenditure you'll have in

a day unless you're a very physically

active person so if you burn a lot of

calories through physical activity then

maybe your resting metabolic rate isn't

a big consideration but most of us you

know have a resting metabolic rate it's

proportional to First our our our weight

our height in our sex so bigger taller

men tend to burn more calories um if you

boil resting metabolic rate down to

which tissues contribute the most to it

it's it's really down to two one is is

muscle and it wins by virtue of its mass

you have a lot of it uh it's not overly

metabolically active unless you're

physically active so if you have more

muscle probably you're more physically

active uh you tend to burn more energy

and your resting metabolic rate is just

notched up a little bit like the

thermostats you know up a little the

other is your liver um it it's not very

big um but it's hugely metabolically

active

and uh you know I often people go oh

well you know we need to do something to

our liver I'm like no you don't want to

mess with the liver you know nobody's

talking about age related loss of liver

unless you're you're you know consuming

maybe too much alcohol or something but

a lot of people can can do something

that about age related loss of muscle

mass and that's to resistance train and

to hang on to this metabolically active

tissue that is a sync for blood glucose

so it you know restricts your or or

excuse me reduces your risk for type two

diabetes uh it's a sync for lipid

oxidation uh and I have a colleague uh

in Germany uh Henning vaker hoga his

name is and he's sort of of the opinion

too that um we're underestimating a

little bit when we begin to lift weights

and really sort of turn up the turnover

on muscle and maybe create some muscle

damage with Ecentric type work um that

muscle sort of switches its metabolism

to to be very carbohydrate Centric and

begin to burn uh excess carbohydrate and

so it's it's not just a SN in other

words it stes glucose it's sort of a a

metabolic sink and it begins to burn and

turn the glucose into lots of other

things as well so it's it's sort of like

a a tissue that is part of the furnace

and the more of it you have the level on

the furnace is just ramped up a little

bit so to your point but I I point this

out to a lot of people too is this that

you have to be active as well you know

so you got you're a big muscle person

you can't just lay around

um you will burn a little bit more

energy but but if you're physically

active that's what really turns the

furnace up well let's take that line

around piece and expand upon it and talk

about and we've talked about being B

ridden but somewhere in between somebody

who is just on vacation they're not

really pushing it how quickly do we

start to lose muscle or even overnight

if somebody is you know they're not

eating after dinner they're not getting

that stimulus through the diet

or

exercise how quickly will things start

to go the other way yeah it's a good

question I mean I think it depends like

most things in science right um how old

you are and you know if you're younger

probably it's not a big deal at all you

spend two weeks just sitting around and

doing nothing and it would have no

appreciable effect on your muscle at all

we did an experiment several years ago

we took older individuals and they were

overweight and some of them were as well

so but they were all metabolically they

had no issues at all but if for two

weeks we gave them a pedometer and said

you can't take more than 1500 steps a

day uh I think most people now you know

you wear something you've got a ring or

something on your wrist or You' got a

phone that tells you how many steps you

can take or should take etc etc uh and

1500 is is not a lot so you got to plan

your day you gotta you know you spend a

lot of time sitting around and like you

know well it's going to cost me 200

steps to you know but it was designed to

mimic a little bit what happened in in

hospitalized patients who on average

only take about 700 steps but we thought

well these people aren't sick like

they're we're just going to ask them to

sit at home for two weeks um they lost

muscle in two weeks uh they got a little

bit weaker um but they became insulin

resistant so that may have been the

muscle loss but probably due to the fact

they weren't using their muscles as well

and and I want to say they were on

average they were about sort of mid-60s

so if you're older uh you can lose it

pretty quickly if you completely remove

the activity stimulus and so the bed

rest scenario you lose it very fast um

there's been some studies done since

trying to rescue that muscle loss in

hospitalized patients remember none of

these people are sick these are all well

people that were just saying do

less um the over night scenario well

that happens every night right unless

you're getting up and eating in the

middle of the night which I don't advise

um but uh yeah I mean you're you're you

know very subtly you're going to lose a

small amount of muscle but nothing on a

scale is going to tell you what it is um

so every time you eat you reverse that

so I mean I think it's probably

self-evident that um if you don't eat

protein for a long period of time you're

not going to get that stimulation but

similarly if you don't move around then

you've lost the two inputs that are

really driving the system and as age

marches on uh the system just gets less

and less you know capable the ceiling

goes down but the sensitivity switch is

also a little bit dimmed as well and the

only way to ramp that back up protein

helps but is by being Physically Active

for sure well where that overnight piece

can

become maybe even double the length if

if somebody's not eating after dinner

and then fasting in the morning yeah you

could basically double the length of

somebody just you know eating relatively

close to bedtime and then again in the

morning so yeah there could be a big

difference there yeah I I actually um

it's interesting that you bring that up

I have a a a friend reach out to me and

he's never been a big guy um but he said

his wife would she said you know I need

to lose some weight would you join me in

this sort of time restricted eating

intermittent fasting type regime and he

was like sure yeah okay you know

anything I'll support you we're good um

and he's a runner uh which is awesome

right um but uh he said I I he goes I

didn't find it very hard at all I goes I

I lost I lost some weight but he goes

now uh and he he said occasionally I'd

be in the gym he goes now like he goes

I'm weaker I can feel it he goes and

like I'm he goes I went from this weight

to this weight and I was like I'm like

no that's good but it's not great so um

as your point out uh I mean it probably

doesn't take much and I don't think his

running um was overly helpful because it

was just you know burning off energy um

so yeah and and he was never big to

begin with but now he's a much smaller

and even he would acknowledge sort of

weaker version of himself but that

doesn't describe everybody but to your

point uh not somebody that really needed

to you know Tim restrict their their

food but did it to support their their

spouse and as a result um lost lost a

little bit of muscle and I've heard you

talk about having a protein Bullis

before bed to actually minimize that

time and go the other

way who would you Advocate that for

that's a Nuance within a nuance and and

I think you know if you're if you're an

athlete I think that's a great strategy

if you're an older person

um I don't have an issue with that uh I

mean you know I hate to say this but

like the warm glass of milk before you

go to bed like maybe it's not a bad idea

after all but a lot of people oh it you

know gives me indigestion I have to go

get up in the night to go pee or you

know or or it disturbs my sleep and so

it's not for everybody and and I value

Sleep Quality over a lot of things these

days so uh you know experiment with it

and see how it works but yeah my again

friend colleague Luke Lon would say um

it's not a bad strategy Not a Bad Thing

to try uh they do it I know they've done

some trials in um hospitalized patients

and uh again it's maybe that's the way

to go but uh yeah large Bolis uh right

before you go to sleep not a bad not a

bad idea for some people maybe what are

some of the areas over the years that

you've changed your mind on quite a few

actually um I mean you know there's

probably two big big ones one is you

know 20 years ago protein quality

animals better than plant absolutely the

more plant you eat you just have to eat

more protein or maybe you're sacrificing

some gains and etc etc you know fast

forward today to to today um data that

we've generated other labs have

generated would suggest otherwise and

the plant-based proteins are you know my

mind they're they're maybe a little bit

different so if you want you know to

equalize the two you know maybe eat 10%

more protein if you're eating plantbased

or or vegan or something like that uh

and and that

really upsets

people and I like I I get it because you

you just want an answer I I posted

something on Instagram the other day in

a comment that somebody made was well

doesn't all of this just boil down to

like it depends and what does that help

and I'm like yeah it does but but you

know science is rarely absolute right

like it so answers change based on on

changing knowledge and so that's what I

think upsets people it's it doesn't you

know it wasn't what they learned

yesterday it's new so that that's how

science works and and the science these

days says you know plant-based or plant

proteins first you have a lot more

choice now than you ever did and I get

it they're they're processed foods that

are made to you know with plants and put

together um but you know that's led to

sort of a Evolution revolution in

people's choice um and those those types

of foods are probably not a bad source

of protein everything that we've done um

you just got to eat enough I think that

1.6 grams per kilo 7 per pound you kind

of cover a lot of bases and it doesn't

matter whether it comes from plants or

animals and that's that's a big one I

mean I think the other one is um asked

me 20 years ago how important protein

was for gaining muscle mass and I just

say oh it's like it's King like it's

it's huge and everything and

then studies march on we've done some

lots of other groups have contributed to

the area and you do a synthesis of the

evidence that's out there so meta

analysis and you know for people that

maybe don't know what that is or maybe

have never heard of it meta analysis is

basically looking and systematically

searching through all of the studies you

know when I say all within a you know

confined

criteria uh that have been done and

having a consensus answer based on

basically mathema

mathematically looking at all of those

studies and you know that method was

invented and came into being um at my

University at McMaster so you know we we

we're responsible for gifting this to

the

world so but it but it's also the basis

of you know making decisions over

life-saving therapies and Cancers and in

cardiovascular drugs and lots of really

important areas so let's just say the

protein affecting muscle mass gain is

you know I'm not winning any Nobel

prizes on this so uh and I don't have

any I don't have a horse in the race and

everything but I would have said 20

years ago protein is King it's super

important you got to get it you got to

eat more and the more you eat more the

more is better better is better than

better uh and now it's sort of like nah

it it's a thin slice on top like you you

bake the cake in other words you make

the muscle by going to the gym by

lifting weights and doing it regularly

um if you really want to tweak things

then eat a little bit more protein um I

might say a little bit like twice the

RDA so 1.6 so it's not a trivial amount

of protein it is more than is

recommended for sure um but what it adds

is uh it's a it's a layer of icing on

the cake and and that really pisses

people off uh because for a long time I

think we unwittingly sort of contributed

to the narrative and I would I would

admit this frankly and even in our

papers you know go back and read them

I'm like oh yeah that's well that's what

we thought at the time time uh and now I

just think it's a much more subtle um

tweak that you can make in your routine

which maybe goes back to my answer of

you know if you want more muscle what

what should you really be doing well you

need to be lifting weights but you know

the nutrition piece is

important the pieces inside the piece

less important and then the pieces

inside the pieces you know and and the

Nuance can get boiled down and quite

reductionist but uh for the most part um

it's pretty broad Strokes stuff um I

think that's a little bit of Aging in

there as well and I'll just call it life

wisdom or something like that is that

I'm like remember those things I used to

worry about but um maybe and maybe

that's just me so maybe it's my Persona

that's changing as well so I have to

acknowledge that but I I still read and

we still do a lot of science around here

so I think it's uh I think it's science

too

coming back to the plant protein piece

yeah just looking for a little bit more

Nuance there given we talked about Lucy

and the importance of that for MPS yeah

the essential amino acids you mentioned

early on the fact that soy is a great

source of plant-based protein y y how do

we look at the Nuance of amino acids MPS

when it comes to somebody on a planton

diet or vegan diet diet right and then

when it comes to supplementing that diet

with a plant protein which would you

recommend yeah I mean there's a lot of

reasons to you know be vegan or eat

plant-based from Health otherwise and

whether that's cardiovascular or you

know a comment about carbon footprint

greenhouse gas emissions which I

definitely don't want to get into

because it's not my area at all but uh

or the choice that people make ecal um

religious whatever reason whatever it is

that you make that choice um to eat that

way so you know I'll just start out by

saying that from a protein standpoint

you do have to eat more um but I think

that how much more I used to think it

was you know 30 to 40% I think it's

closer now to sort of 10 to 15% more if

you're on uh plant-based it might be as

high as 20% if you're a vegan

um but if you're a judicious vegan uh in

other words you know how to complement

proteins you know things like textured

vegetable protein is a good source and

Etc of protein um you get those things

figured out but by judicious I mean

educated and that you you plan your

meals you you know you can be vegan and

need um you know a slice of white

Wonderbread and drink a Diet Coke but

that doesn't make you a good vegan right

and then just like you can be be a

crummy omnivore or no the big you can

eat an Oreo and you're vegan or you know

like you get my point right not to

overstress on it but I think what's

happened out in the world is that people

have become very polarized in their

views and it's become now a battle of

philosophy rather than than science but

the the reality is is that you know if

you're eating those plant-based things

you just got to eat a little bit more

protein if you add plant-based protein

powder

then it just I mean the arguments become

largely moot they're slightly lower

quality but we just finished a study in

older men and we compared way to to PE

protein and when we got these folks

these older guys up to um 1.6 grams it

didn't matter whether you're eating whey

or p uh we had a third condition where

people got collagen uh and then it

mattered because collagen is a very low

quality protein uh we used to spray it

on Farmers Fields as fertilizer um now

there's a good marketing machine behind

it and it improves your skin your nails

and extensively your your connective

tissue Etc um but yeah so we and uh we

whey and p uh no difference uh both of

them better than collagen but you got to

eat you got to eat you know a little bit

more protein for sure would PE be your

number one choice in the plant world

I don't know if it' be my number one um

for a powder somebody wanting to buy a

supplement I still think it's

soy and I know a lot of people they're

oh isoflavones the these are feminizing

hormones that's complete garbage um a

lot of people uh because of the soy Le

leian that's in there they say that's

GMO and if that's your belief then fine

don't don't eat soy uh but it's the

highest quality plant protein that's out

there for sure and specifically honing

in on the Lucine is that high in soy or

in P yeah it's it's it's pretty high in

in in soy it's not as high in PE as it

is in soy but again if you get to the

enough protein it doesn't matter oddly

enough I don't know why and people ask

me why I don't know uh but corn protein

is is high in Lucine and I have no I

have no no concept but one thing and

I'll just mention this because I think

it's really cool when I mention it to my

students they don't think it's so cool

but I told them I'm like you know

historically isn't it amazing that in

these food I'll call them insecure

regions or for regions of you know

religious nature they just didn't have

very many animals and livestock around

they figured out that the beans or a

legume and and a grain paired together

were were good I'm like red beans and

rice in the Caribbean black beans and

corn in South America uh lentils and

rice in India soy and rice in in lots of

Southeast Asia and they just glaze over

and I'm like I think that's insanely

fascinating but um they're not quite as

convinced but I I think that's you know

again it's a testimony to you know human

adaptability that we don't like we don't

need meat to survive I I eat meat I flat

out admit that I'm I'm a died in the wo

omnivore um but I probably eat less than

I did and I think my three sons even

though they're I think very protein

aware will eat less than I did and there

you know I mean that's you can't feed

nine billion people um at least with the

methods that we have for

agriculture last question for you male

versus female any differences when it

comes to protein intake resistance

training my take on this is is there

probably are some differences but

they're relatively small I

mean short of um you know reproductive

hormonal issues which you know the work

that we've done and meta analyed and

lots of other people have done appear to

be relatively trivial there is a shift

around menopause and women uh that

happens with bone and it and it also

happens with muscle as well so you know

a strong message is for women to to

really think about maintaining and

gaining some strength heading into

menopause because it's a it's a

transition point from a muscular

skeletal

standpoint um outside of that uh we're

the same species right and and and I

think the differences are relatively

subtle and that's not to poo poo any

differences in

pathological disease mechanisms which

we've done a crummy job researching

women absolutely um but you know the

bottom line is from muscle protein

resistance

training we don't see an awful lot of

difference between them and and you know

for the record again I know men have

testosterone women don't so you know

blah blah blah blah but once you're once

you're postpubertal uh if you get grown

males females to lift weights you know

men have more muscle than women but

relatively speaking they gain the same

amount they go up proportionate to how

much muscle they gain so you don't need

testosterone to to gain muscle it's the

local action of the lifting the weight

that that drives the process so

um and and also you know a lot of women

will say oh I don't want to muscle up

and get huge and I'm like I never seen

that happen just be honest so um but

it's it's going to be more important I

think even for women um than it is for

men to to be strong going into your

later years for sure one more question

for you frequency of resistance

training if somebody wants to optimize

for MPS is it best just to go by muscle

soreness have a day off in between doing

resistance training how do we figure out

the frequency yeah soreness I I I don't

think is a good guide of for anything um

I'm of the camp no pain no pain um

particularly at my age because I want to

come back and train tomorrow or the next

day um there's a sweet spot probably

between somewhere between two to three

times a week I think uh really uh

squeezes a lot out of the cloth you you

pretty much got a lot of the benefits

there uh

always one time a week or something

always much much much better than

nothing um but once you've got the one

time a week mastered then I'd say two

and you know it's sort of like how how

much do you want to twist the cloth but

some between two to three times a week

and you've got it all covered all right

good place to end it steu I really

appreciate you coming on sharing your

wisdom my pleasure this was great we're

going to link up your social media

everything in the show notes thank you

okay my pleasure now that you're done

you're going to want to stick around

here and catch this other incredible

episode you don't want to miss it I'll

see you over there your whole goal in

life is to get the highest lean mass at

the lowest fat Mass basically you want

to be a bodybuilder so if I just snap my

fingers and you're a bodybuilder you

have very little body fat tons of muscle