社會學與生死大事 (10) 親密的陌生人

Summary

在这一讲中，我们深入探讨了社会学与生死大事中的情愛议题。讲师未采用系统化的方式，而是通过介绍相关书籍，探讨了工业社会和资本主义对情愛产生的影响，以及在不同社会结构下，情愛面临的挑战。特别提到《親密的陌生人》一书，分析了男女在亲密关系中遇到的障碍，并通过心理学和发展心理学的视角，探讨了性别角色如何影响个人的情感表达和关系建立。讲师强调了解决这些问题的重要性，并提出了共同育儿（co-parenting）作为一种可能的解决方案，以促进更健康的亲密关系和家庭动态。

Takeaways

• 😊这门课探讨生命中重要的几个主题,如自由、爱情等,并介绍相关的书籍启示
• 😞工业社会后,爱情市场化,婚姻不稳定,回到过去反而更困难
• 👧男孩子要面对性别认同,建立心理障壁,女孩子则更自然
• 💑两性“靠近又远离”的关系源自成长过程中的母子依恋
• 😥社会错误地认为女性情感上依赖男性,忽视男性也依赖女性
• 💪男性通过经济独立获取安全感,女性追求独立也面临社会期望的矛盾
• 👨‍👩‍👦父母平等共同养育孩子,有助消除性别认同障碍,提高交流能力
• 👽社会政策和文化应该支持父亲更多参与照顾孩子
• 🏠孩子在性别角色更为平衡的家庭中成长,有利未来两性关系
• 💞下一讲探讨书中谈到的‘爱情的正常性混乱’

Q & A

视频中提到女性成长过程中为什么比较容易建立亲密关系?

视频分析男女成长过程不同,女性依附母亲模型,可以敞开心扉与母亲交流,所以成长过程中建立的心理围墙没有男性高,更容易与人建立亲密关系。

视频中称男性建立自我心理围墙的根本原因是什么?

视频分析男性在成长过程中会逐渐意识到自己的性别角色,不能再完全模仿母亲。为避免受到社会非议,他会很早建立自我的心理围墙与界限。

为什么说男性表面看似很照顾伴侶,但实际上是在满足自己的依赖感?

视频分析男性通过照顾伴侶让对方依赖自己获得安全感,这其实是在满足他内心的依赖需求,并没有与对方真正建立深入的互动和交流。

工业社会为什么会加强男女之间的依赖误解?

视频提到工业社会中女性失去经济独立,加强了对男性的经济依赖。这被误解为女性整体上依赖男性,忽视了男性也存在情感依赖。

女性为什么在追求独立的过程中会产生張力和焦虑?

视频分析在追求经济独立的过程中,女性会担心成为“女强人”而吓跑男性,与传统社会对女性角色的期待产生矛盾,因此焦虑和張力。

视频中如何看待男女在依赖问题上的误解?

视频明确指出男女在情感上的依赖需求是对等的,只是由于社会的期待和误解,形成了片面认知,需要加深相互理解。

影响男女有效沟通的根本在哪里?

视频分析影响沟通的根本在于童年成长过程中形成的心理围墙和社会对性别角色的刻板期待,这些都需要从根本上解构和改变。

为什么父母需要共同投入孩子教育?

视频主张父母共同投入孩子教育,打破性别角色期待,让孩子养成更健康开放的心理,长大后能够与异性建立更好的沟通。

构建亲密关系需要注意哪些方面?

视频分析亲密关系建立需要注意童年经历、社会环境、性别角色期待等诸多方面,需要时时照顾彼此的心理需求。

您对解决“亲密的陌生人”现象有什么建议?

我的建议是父母应该共同投入孩子教育,社会应该消除对性别角色的定型期待,学校应开设相关的性别教育课程,以帮助孩子和青年人培养正确的性别观念,打造和谐社会。

Outlines

00:00

😊小時候男女性別認同的差異

作者說明男女在小時候的成長過程中,對性別認同的需求不同。男孩子需要與母親保持距離,建立自我邊界;女孩子則可以更親密依賴母親。這造成日後男性更难與人建立親密關係。

05:02

😅男女在親密關係中的距離感

作者使用「近而遠」描述男性在親密關係中的矛盾心理。一方面需要親近,一方面又怕自我邊界受到侵犯。此外,男女對「親密」的理解也有差異。

10:03

😥社會迷思加劇了依賴和 distance 的困境

社會上存在著「女性情感上依賴男性」的迷思。但事實上,在情感上男女都需要互相依賴。社會對兩性角色定義的刻板印象,加劇了兩性在依賴和保持距離上的困境。

15:04

😌父母共同育兒有助溝通

如果父母雙方共同參與育兒,男孩子成長過程中就不會那麼早建立心理屏障。這對未來與異性建立親密關係也有幫助。但這需要在政策和文化上有所調整,比如給予父親更多育兒時間。

20:04

😃下一講愛情的正常性混亂

作者介紹下一講主題是「愛情的正常性混亂」,會探討當代愛情面對的一些結構性問題,比如在政策和文化上的障礙,考驗著現代情侶。

Keywords

💡love

A major theme of the video is the difficulties and obstacles in love relationships between men and women. The speaker discusses the marketization and commercialization of love in modern society.

💡intimacy

The video examines issues of intimacy, attachment and dependence between romantic partners. Lack of true intimacy is seen as a cause of problems.

💡communication

Communication barriers between men and women are discussed, stemming from differences in emotional needs and childhood development.

💡independence

Economic and emotional independence are distinguished. Myths about dependence between the sexes are challenged.

💡roles

Gender roles in society are seen as definitions that hinder communication between partners with different expectations.

💡boundaries

Unique challenges men face early on in erecting self boundaries are related to later communication barriers with romantic partners.

💡security

Some caretaking behaviors are analyzed as means for men to feel secure in a relationship by making women dependent.

💡parenting

Equal co-parenting from early childhood is proposed as a solution to avoid formation of rigid psychological walls.

💡policies

Social policies that allow men and women equal parenting roles are called for to enable the co-parenting solution.

💡culture

shifts in cultural attitudes, like men spending substantial time parenting, are described as necessary for the co-parenting solution.

Highlights

在以前的時代,婚姻選擇對象不是以情愛為基礎的,就是貧窮的人你根本沒有很多選擇的權利

整個村子就是一個家庭,甚至是做保安、教育都是通過這個家族的組織來進行的

情感是很容易有變動的,一個這麼重要的社會組織,它要很穩定

在工業社會、商業社會之後,那種所謂浪漫主義的愛情,才有更大的空間發展起來

男性的成長過程裡面和女性是不同的,男性很早開始會建立一個自己的邊界

女性就不用這麼麻煩了,可以說女孩子跟男孩子不同,是不用這麼早就建立一個自我的邊界

男性有這樣的特徵,女性有另一種特徵之後,他們走在一起,開始有親密關係,就好像一種舞蹈

男性小時候都是依附著媽媽,但是長大之後不能再認同她,所以抽離出來,建立心理的高牆

女性可以依賴男性,而忽略了其實在男性情感上也是要依賴女性的,這種傳統想法讓兩性產生很多張力

要解決這些親密的陌生人的問題,其實要回到教養小孩子,父母要更加平等,共同去撫養小孩子

如果爸爸都用很多時間在家庭裏照顧小孩子,男孩子就不需要這麼早建立一個心理的高牆

這樣男女成長過程更加接近,將來和有個親密關係也不會有這麼多溝通的障礙

co-parenting涉及很多方面,社會政策要給多一個空間,文化上是否可以接受爸爸用這麼多時間在家庭裏

政策和文化必須有相當的調整,小孩子在這些家庭長大,才能夠更加建立一個可以溝通的心理狀態

對於情愛以至到家庭,是有更加大的幫助,遇到這些結構性的問題,我們下次再見

Transcripts

各位朋友好 Hello friends

歡迎收聽和收看健民講堂 Welcome to listen and watch the Kin-Man Lecture Hall

今天是社會學與生死大事的第十講 Today is the tenth lecture on Sociology and Life and Death

我們先打開PowerPoint Let’s open PowerPoint first

這個課程是會說生命裡面有一些很重要的課題 This course will teach you that there are some very important issues in life.

包括自由、情愛、工作、生老病死 Including freedom, love, work, birth, old age, illness and death

我不是想用一個很有系統的方式來說這些主題 I'm not trying to cover these topics in a very systematic way

而是我想介紹一些書籍在這些主題裡面 But I want to introduce some books on these topics

我覺得是會為我們帶來一些啟示的 I think it will bring us some enlightenment

我們現在一直在說情愛、家庭的問題 We have been talking about love and family issues now

如果想更有系統的了解 If you want to have a more systematic understanding

可以聽我以前的一個課程 You can listen to one of my previous courses

是說社會學與後現代社會的 It’s about sociology and postmodern society

基本上我們上次說到弗洛姆 Basically we talked about Fromm last time

認為在工業社會、資本主義興起之後 It is believed that after the rise of industrial society and capitalism

其實情愛有很多很混亂的狀況 In fact, there are many very confusing situations in love

越來越是市場化、商業化 Increasingly market-oriented and commercialized

但是其實我們回溯 But actually we look back

如果在以前的時代裡面來說 If we talk about it in the previous era

比如農業社會的時期裡面來說 For example, in the period of agricultural society,

情愛的問題是更加困難的 The problem of love is more difficult

可以這樣說 It can be said that

意思就是說 It means

在很多的婚姻選擇對象的時候 When choosing a partner for many marriages

根本就不是以情愛作為一個基礎的 It's not based on love at all

就是貧窮的人 Just poor people

你根本就沒有很多選擇的權利 You don't have much choice at all

以前的家庭裡面 In the previous family

扮演很多功能 play many functions

生育、一起耕田 Give birth and farm together

所以其實是一個經濟單位 So it is actually an economic unit

整個村子就是一個家庭 The whole village is one family

甚至是做保安、教育 Even working as security and education

都是通過這個家族的組織來進行的 It's all done through this family's organization.

所以家庭有這麼大的功能的話 So if the family has such a big function,

其實它的基礎不可以建立在情感上面 In fact, its foundation cannot be based on emotion.

因為情感是很容易有變動的 Because emotions can change easily

一個這麼重要的社會組織 Such an important social organization

它要很穩定的 It needs to be very stable

所以它更加不會把浪漫的愛情作為婚姻的基礎 Therefore, it will not regard romantic love as the basis of marriage.

只是慢慢開始進入了 Just slowly started to enter

工業社會、商業社會之後 After industrial society and commercial society

這種社會的結構改變之後 After this change in the social structure

那種所謂浪漫主義的愛情 That so-called romantic love

才有更大的空間發展起來 Only then will there be more room for development.

不要說以前貧窮的家庭裡面 Don't talk about the poor families in the past

你沒有什麼選擇 you have no choice

就算是富裕的家庭 Even a wealthy family

無論西方或中國 Whether Western or Chinese

這些富裕的家庭 these wealthy families

他們很多時候是為了繼承財產等等 Many times they do it to inherit property, etc.

一定要門當戶對的 It must be a good match

所以其實婚姻都是父母 So in fact, marriage is all about parents

通過一些外在的條件 through some external conditions

為子女進行選擇的 Choose for your children

這個情況之下你可以想像 In this case, you can imagine

很多所謂浪漫的愛情等等 A lot of so-called romantic love and so on

很多在詩詞、歌賦、小說等等裡面會有描寫的 Many of them are described in poems, songs, novels, etc.

都可能是人的一種投射或寄託 It may be a kind of projection or sustenance of people.

在現實生活來說 In real life

其實有很多的障礙 In fact, there are many obstacles

到了現代社會 In modern society

即使說會有更多機會去談戀愛 Even though there will be more opportunities to fall in love

婚姻也是以戀愛為基礎 Marriage is also based on love

但結果婚姻是更加不穩定 But the result is that the marriage is more unstable

就是離婚率是遠遠高於以前的社會 That is, the divorce rate is much higher than in previous societies.

這個情愛的困難 This difficulty of love

也是我們現在開始一直探討下去 That’s why we’re starting to discuss it now

今天這一堂課探討一本書 Today's class discusses a book

就是《親密的陌生人》 It's "Intimate Strangers"

《Intimate Strangers》 "Intimate Strangers"

這本書是寫到 This book is written about

男女之間要走到很親密的相處 Men and women need to get along very intimately

是有很多的障礙 There are many obstacles

使得所謂很浪漫的情愛 Makes the so-called very romantic love

當他們真的開始兩個人走在一起 When they really started walking together

進入婚姻之後 After entering into marriage

面對的就是種種障礙 Facing various obstacles

這本書嘗試要做什麼呢？ What is this book trying to do?

他想探討這種兩性相處的困難 He wanted to explore the difficulty of getting along between the sexes

或多或少是用一種精神分析的方法 more or less in a psychoanalytic way

或者是用一個發展心理學的方式 Or use a developmental psychology approach

說到一個人的成長過程 Talking about a person’s growth process

特別是在童年時期裡面 Especially in childhood

他如何被塑造出一種 How was he shaped into a

所謂男性或女性的性格 The so-called male or female character

慢慢可以說是一種角色 Gradually it can be said to be a kind of role

造成了男女之間在很多方面 This has caused many differences between men and women

相處是有很多困難在裡面的 There are many difficulties in getting along with each other.

包括了性、親密的關係 Including sex, intimate relationships

互相的依賴等等的問題都是會糾纏不清的 Issues such as mutual dependence will become entangled.

他的進路是怎麼樣呢？ What is his approach?

他一開始的時候先說 He said it first at the beginning

其實當人成長之後 In fact, when people grow up

慢慢甚至是進入一種親密的關係 Slowly and even enter into an intimate relationship

其實這種親密的關係裡面 In fact, within this intimate relationship

很多時候你會發現人是會走回自己的童年裡面 Many times you will find that people will go back to their childhood

面對一些很相近的問題 Facing some very similar problems

這個問題是什麼呢？ What is the problem?

就是Separation and unity It's Separation and unity

就是一種分開和整合 It's a kind of separation and integration

我們到底是要有更多的距離 Do we need more distance?

大家要保持自己 Everyone should keep to themselves

還是想結合得更加親密呢？ Or do you want to be more intimate?

他說這個其實在小時候來說 He actually said this when he was a child

你面對著父母的時候 When you face your parents

特別是男性很早已經要處理這個問題 Men in particular have to deal with this problem early on

他說人從來都有兩面的 He said people always have two sides

一個方面就是希望自己能夠成為一個獨立的個體 One aspect is that I hope that I can become an independent individual

但是這樣會變得很孤單的 But it will become very lonely

就像是弗洛姆所說的 As Fromm said

所以我們很希望跟其他人聯合起來 So we really want to join forces with others

但是跟其他人聯合起來的話 But if you join forces with others

有時候會使得所謂自我的邊界受到挑戰 Sometimes the so-called boundaries of self are challenged

所以這一種到底是要兩個人結合 So this kind of thing requires the combination of two people.

更加親密和深入一些 more intimate and deeper

還是說要留下一個自我的空間呢？ Or do you want to leave a space for yourself?

這是一個很長時間 it's a long time

從童年以至成長之後都要面對的問題 Problems faced from childhood to adulthood

而這個是造成了婚姻裡面有很多困難的很重要的原因 And this is a very important reason why there are many difficulties in marriage.

這本書所用的一個剛才所說的 This book uses a just-mentioned

他的取向 his orientation

他是說到兩性的特性 He is talking about the characteristics of both sexes

其實是和你小時候成長的過程裡面 In fact, it’s from the process of growing up with you when you were a child.

面對剛剛所說的這種要保持距離 We need to keep our distance in the face of what I just said.

還是更進一步結合的主題 Or is it a theme that further combines

是非常有相關的 is very relevant

特別就是男性 Especially men

他說男性的成長過程裡面和女性是不同的 He said that the growth process of men is different from that of women.

他說男性或女性也好 He said it doesn't matter if it's male or female.

小時候都是依附著媽媽 When I was a child, I always relied on my mother.

因為媽媽往往就是在家庭裡面照顧小孩子的人 Because mothers are often the ones who take care of the children in the family

大家都依附著她的 Everyone depends on her

但是男孩子的問題就是他再長大一點的話 But the problem with boys is that if they grow up a little bit,

他開始出現認同的問題 He started to have identity issues

她是媽媽 she is mother

我們小時候很多事情其實是透過Social learning When we were young, many things happened through social learning.

社會學習 social learning

就是觀察別人做什麼我們跟著去做 Just observe what others do and we follow suit.

小時候大家就是跟著媽媽 When we were little, we just followed our mother

她做什麼你就跟著她做 Whatever she does, you follow her

但是長大了之後 But when I grow up

開始有兩性的意識出現的話 If awareness of both genders begins to emerge,

因為有些人會說了 Because some people will say

男孩子再學媽媽 Boys should imitate their mothers again

或者是黏著媽媽 Or clinging to mom

太親密的話 If it's too close

開始有些人說 Some people started to say

你是媽寶 you are mama's baby

你怎麼這麼娘娘腔呢？ Why are you such a sissy?

你是男孩子為什麼學人家穿高跟鞋等等 You are a boy, why do you imitate others in wearing high heels, etc.

你開始發現 you start to discover

你再認同媽媽的一言一行的話 Do you agree with your mother's words and deeds again?

你會受到一些閒言閒語、社會壓力 You will be subject to some gossip and social pressure

會被人嘲笑的 Will be laughed at

這個時候你開始知道 At this time you begin to know

原來是有兩性的角色 Turns out there are characters of both genders

我是要認同爸爸作為一個男性的 I want to identify with my father as a male

不可以認同媽媽這麼多 I can't agree with my mother so much

但是對一個小孩子來說是很困難的 But it is very difficult for a child

他不可以一方面說依附著媽媽 He can't say he's attached to his mother on the one hand

因為媽媽照顧你很多方面 Because mom takes care of you in many ways

但是另一方面我不認同她 But on the other hand I don't agree with her

他分不出來 He can't tell the difference

所以結果他要做什麼呢？ So what will he do as a result?

他就要逼自己更早開始 He has to force himself to start earlier

不要再依附著媽媽 Stop clinging to mom

這個Attachment開始要減弱 This Attachment is starting to weaken

甚至是要更早開始覺得 It is even necessary to start feeling earlier

我要獨立起來 I want to be independent

我要有自己的一個邊界 I need to have my own boundary

所以在男孩子的成長過程裡面 So in the growth process of boys

很早開始會建立一個自己的邊界 Establish your own boundaries very early on

其實就是因為在成長過程裡面 In fact, it is because in the process of growing up

他不能夠再認同一個他依附的人 He can no longer identify with a person to whom he is attached

所以結果不如他完全抽離出來 So the result is not as good as him withdrawing completely

他說女孩子就不用這麼麻煩了 He said girls don't have to go through such trouble.

女孩子成長的過程裡面 In the process of girls growing up

我是依附媽媽 I am dependent on my mother

這個很自然 This is natural

因為媽媽在家庭裡面照顧很多 Because my mother takes care of a lot in the family

我也認同她 I agree with her too

學她這樣走路 Learn how to walk like her

說話的方法等等 Ways of speaking, etc.

甚至是化妝也好 Even makeup

是不會有人笑你的 No one will laugh at you

是沒有問題的 There is no problem

所以說女孩子跟男孩子不同 So girls are different from boys

是不用這麼早就建立一個Ego boundary There is no need to establish an Ego boundary so early

一個自我的邊界 a self-boundary

因為你不需要再擔心自己是會認同一個 Because you no longer need to worry about whether you will identify with someone

你不應該認同的對象 Someone you shouldn’t identify with

這個就奠定了一個基礎 This lays a foundation

男性這麼早有一個自我的邊界之後 After men have a self-boundary so early,

你是比較難去跟他溝通 It is more difficult for you to communicate with him

他有很多內在的矛盾 He has many inner contradictions

有很多事情他會不想跟你說出來 There are many things he doesn't want to tell you

因為他從小已經開始面對著這個性別認同的過程 Because he has been facing the process of gender identity since he was a child

造成他建立了一面牆 causing him to build a wall

圍住自己 surround yourself

女孩子這面牆沒有這麼厲害 The wall for girls is not so powerful

因為沒有問題 Because there is no problem

你就和我聊天 Just chat with me

我也會表達我自己 I will also express myself

跟媽媽說我自己所關心的事情 Tell my mother about my concerns

不開心、開心等等 Unhappy, happy, etc.

他說這個就造成了男性是更難溝通的 He said this makes it more difficult for men to communicate.

不願意表達自己太多情感 Not willing to express too many emotions

太多的想法 too many ideas

往往好像經常覺得有一面牆圍著他 It often seems like there is a wall surrounding him

而女性是沒有這麼強烈 Women are not so strong

這個是跟成長的過程是有關係的 This is related to the process of growing up.

他說 he said

結果男性有這樣的特徵 As a result, men have such characteristics

女性有另一種特徵之後 After women have another characteristic

當他們走在一起 when they walk together

開始談戀愛 start falling in love

甚至是有親密關係 Even an intimate relationship

接著開始建立家庭 Then start building a family

他發現這種兩性的關係 He discovered this relationship between the sexes

就好像一種 like a

他用的字眼叫做 The word he used was called

The Approach Avoidance Dance The Approach Avoidance Dance

好像兩個人在跳舞 It seems like two people are dancing

有時候好像走在一起 Sometimes it seems like we are walking together

有時候又好像兩個人要分開 Sometimes it seems like two people are about to separate

這支舞真的不是這麼容易跳的 This dance is really not that easy to dance.

因為你也不知道有時候好像 Because you don’t know that sometimes it seems like

你明明覺得很想和他親近一點 You obviously feel like you want to get closer to him

過一段時間好像又分開 It seems like they separated again after a while

特別是他說到男性 Especially when he talks about men

好像既近且遠 seems both near and far

不知道如何跟他建立一個很緊密的關係 I don’t know how to build a close relationship with him

他說這個原因是男性 He said the reason was male

他對於如何才覺得有安全感 How does he feel safe

如何才覺得有親密關係 How to feel intimate

有時候和女性是很不同的 Sometimes it's very different from women

他說對很多男性來說 He said that for many men

他是不需要說太多話的 He doesn't need to say much

他說只要Physically He said as long as Physically

你身體上來說和他很靠近的話 If you are physically close to him

對於男性來說 for men

他覺得很多時候已經是有一種安全感 He feels that he already has a sense of security many times

其實同在就足夠了 In fact, being together is enough

不需要經常不斷的在聊天 No need to chat constantly

這個其實就是說 This actually means

他自己小時候 When he was a child

他覺得其實他仍然還是很需要媽媽 He feels that actually he still needs his mother very much

但是因為他不可以認同她 But because he can't agree with her

所以建立了一個心理的高牆 So we built a psychological wall

但是他又真的需要她 But he really needs her

需要媽媽在身邊就可以了 As long as my mother is around

但是你不需要跟我說太多話 But you don't need to talk to me too much

我也不會跟你說太多話 I won't talk too much to you either

這種和媽媽的關係 This relationship with my mother

結果在和太太 As a result, I was with my wife

或者是和你的伴侶的關係裡面 Or in your relationship with your partner

又再重新重現出來 reappear again

男性有些時候只是希望你在身邊 Sometimes men just want you to be around

但是不一定要跟你有很緊密的相處 But I don’t necessarily have to get along very closely with you.

但是我記得有些女性的朋友跟我說 But I remember some female friends told me

我覺得老公在我旁邊 I feel like my husband is next to me

大家一起看電視等等 Let's all watch TV together, etc.

或者是她做她的事 Or she does her thing

他彈古箏 He plays the guzheng

我在編織也好 It's okay if I'm knitting

不代表我們是在一起的 It doesn't mean we are together

這些只是同一個空間而已 These are just the same space

我們兩個是各自做自己的事而已 The two of us are just doing our own thing.

沒有真正的溝通 no real communication

如果跟她老公說 If she tells her husband

她老公就嚇了一跳 Her husband was shocked

我經常陪著你 I always accompany you

原來你覺得我這樣不算陪伴 It turns out you think that I don’t count as companionship.

因為她覺得兩個人是沒有真正的互動 Because she feels that there is no real interaction between the two people

這不是一個真正的親密關係 This is not a real intimate relationship

男性是不意覺的 Men are unconscious

第二點就是說 The second point is to say

有些男性其實看起來 Some men actually look

他是很照顧他的伴侶 He takes good care of his partner

就是幫她拿東西 Just help her get something

她身體有什麼事 What's wrong with her body?

他甚至是會照顧他的伴侶 He even takes care of his partner

生病的時候等等 Wait when you are sick

有些什麼事情 something

做決定 make a decision

我幫你做決定 I help you make a decision

我們在想一些的大男人 We're thinking about some grown men

但是同時也很保護老婆的 But at the same time, he is also very protective of his wife.

就是這些男性 These are the men

他就說Nurture這個概念 He just talked about the concept of Nurture

Nurture這個概念就是說 The concept of Nurture means

好像很好的照顧你 Seems to take good care of you

但是其實 But actually

他說深層次來說有些男性 He said that deep down some men

他是通過照顧你 He is taking care of you by

讓你依賴他 make you dependent on him

這樣的話 In this case

他就有一種安全感 He has a sense of security

因為他不斷照顧你之後 Because after he keeps taking care of you

你沒有他就不行 You can't do it without him

他就覺得你依賴我的話 He feels that you rely on my words

你不會跑掉 you won't run away

他心底裡就有安全感 He feels safe in his heart

但是其實他並不是真正的跟對方建立一個 But in fact, he didn't really establish a relationship with the other party.

Intimate relationship Intimate relationship

親密的關係 close relationship

比如兩個人可能會把心裡面的事 For example, two people may share their inner feelings

就是跟對方說 Just tell the other person

包括你的強處或者是你的弱處 Including your strengths or your weaknesses

你是不是能夠敞開心懷跟對方溝通 Are you able to communicate with the other person with an open heart?

未必是的 Not necessarily

他只是用一種很照顧者的角色去照顧對方 He just takes care of the other person in a very caregiver role

他是想通過這樣的關係 He wants to use this kind of relationship

得到一種安全感 get a sense of security

這個也是回到童年的時候 This is also back to my childhood

就是說他其實很需要媽媽在身邊照顧他 That is to say, he actually really needs his mother to be around to take care of him.

但他也不是真的想跟他媽媽有一個很深入的溝通 But he doesn’t really want to have a deep communication with his mother.

只不過成長之後來說 But after growing up

是角色反過來 It's the roles reversed

就是我來照顧你 I'll take care of you

你也不會跑掉 You won't run away either

但是其實不代表一個 But it doesn’t actually mean one

就是很深入溝通的 It’s a very in-depth communication

一種親密的關係 an intimate relationship

他說所以在我們的社會裡面 He said that in our society

這個作者說 The author said

有很多的Myth There are many Myths

這些神話、傳說 These myths and legends

這些迷思 these myths

他說這些迷思就是有關依賴的問題 He said these myths are about dependence

他說長時間來說 He said that in the long run

你覺得兩性之間是女性依賴男性的 Do you think that between the sexes, women are dependent on men?

他說這種說法 He said this

其實我們有時候混淆了 In fact, we sometimes get confused

在經濟上面來說 Economically speaking

因為男性 because men

特別是說工業社會之後 Especially after industrial society

分工更加清楚 The division of labor is clearer

男性出去外面工廠打工 Men go out to work in factories

女性在家裡面 women inside home

要照顧小孩子 Have to take care of children

因為早期的工業社會也生很多小孩子的 Because early industrial societies also had many children.

媽媽基本上是無法出去工作的 Mother basically cannot go out to work

就是結婚之後 Just after getting married

就要照顧小孩子的 I have to take care of the children

這種狀況好像做到表面看起來 This situation seems to be on the surface

就是說女性很依賴男性 That is to say, women are very dependent on men.

其實他說的是經濟上面是依賴男性而已 In fact, what he said is that financially, he is just dependent on men.

但是情感上面 But emotionally

他說事實上男性、女性 He said that in fact men and women

都需要依賴對方 They all need to rely on each other

需要有一種的Attachment There needs to be an Attachment

大家都需要依附一個對象 Everyone needs to be attached to an object

讓自己情感滿足的 to satisfy oneself emotionally

只不過在社會裡面來說 But in society

經常混淆了這種經濟的獨立 Often confused with this economic independence

跟情感的依賴 with emotional dependence

就是覺得好像黏不起來 I just feel like I can’t stick to it

事實上不是這樣 In fact it is not so

只不過就是說男性 Just talking about men

他想對方不要跑掉 He wants the other party not to run away

滿足他情感的依賴 Satisfy his emotional dependence

他做的方法是怎麼樣呢？ How did he do it?

就是讓自己經濟上更加獨立 Just to make myself more financially independent

讓自己能夠賺到錢 enable yourself to make money

家裡的太太就要依賴他 The wife of the family must rely on him

結果他就可以很安全的 As a result, he will be safe

很穩定的找到一個 Very stable to find one

他情感依賴的對象 The object of his emotional dependence

而反過來女性 On the other hand, women

因為整個社會裡面 Because in the whole society

總是覺得你可以嬌羞一點 I always think you could be a little shy

你可以依賴男性 you can rely on men

結婚之後願託喬木 After getting married, I wish to entrust arbor

她出現的情況就是 The situation when she appeared was

如果她好好地扮演這個角色的話 If she plays this role well

她覺得好像很舒服 She felt very comfortable

因為社會是期望你這樣 Because society expects you to be like this

但是當她開始越來越追尋 But as she began to pursue more and more

自己有更加獨立的經濟 Have a more independent economy

社會的地位 social status

我有自己的思想 I have my own thoughts

我有自己的經濟能力的話 If I have my own financial ability

她開始內在裡面是會有點緊張 She will start to feel a little nervous inside.

因為這個好像不符合一個工業社會裡面 Because this doesn’t seem to fit in an industrial society.

對女性這個角色的定義 Definition of the role of women

所以有些女性 So some women

她即使是很厲害的 Even though she is very powerful

很獨立的 Very independent

到了某些位置 arrived at some location

她就不敢再往上爬 She doesn't dare to climb up any more

因為她很怕自己變成一個真正很獨立的女性 Because she is afraid that she will become a truly independent woman

獨當一面有成就的女性的話 Words from women who are successful in their own right

反而是讓她吸引不到異性 On the contrary, it makes her unable to attract the opposite sex

大家都怕了她 Everyone is afraid of her

看到你這麼厲害 Seeing how powerful you are

不敢追求你 Don't dare to pursue you

從讀書開始 Start with reading

讀書成績好的女孩子 Girls with good academic performance

男同學已經不敢追她了 Male classmates no longer dare to chase her

來到職場裡面來說 Let’s talk about it in the workplace

如果你是獨當一面 If you are alone

女強人的話 words of a strong woman

很多男士也是敬而遠之 Many men also stay away from

所以他說 so he said

好像在社會裡面來說 It seems that in society

說到女性 Speaking of women

情感上要依賴男性 Emotionally dependent on men

而忽略了其實在男性情感上 And ignores the fact that in male emotions

也是要依賴女性的 Also dependent on women

這種傳統的想法 this traditional idea

讓男性不斷的 Let men continue

在經濟上讓自己獨立 Make yourself financially independent

女性在經濟獨立的過程裡面 Women in the process of economic independence

產生出很多的張力 generate a lot of tension

特別是我們現在慢慢走向後工業社會的話 Especially if we are now slowly moving towards a post-industrial society

女性根本發現 Women fundamentally discover

我也不得不出去工作的 I also have to go out to work

有很多工作可能是更加歡迎女性去做 There are many jobs that women may be more welcome to do

所以她面對著傳統 So she faced tradition

我說傳統其實是 When I say tradition, it actually means

就算到了工業社會 Even in industrial society

這種對兩性分工的看法 This view of the division of labor between the sexes

她面對這樣的期望的話 If she faces such expectations

她就有很多的張力 She has a lot of tension

他說 he said

這些早期成長的過程裡面 In these early growth processes

因為和媽媽之間的關係 Because of the relationship with my mother

造成了男性 caused male

一種自我的圍牆 a wall of self

或者是邊界更早形成 Or the boundary formed earlier

兩性溝通有很多的困難 There are many difficulties in communication between the sexes

第二方面來說 From the second aspect

社會一直定義男女的角色 Society has always defined the roles of men and women

男性是如何才為之男性 How do men become men?

雄性有雄性的特徵 Males have male characteristics

女性有女性的特徵 women have feminine characteristics

往往都是說男性要更加獨立 It is often said that men should be more independent

就是不要隨便表達情感 Just don’t express your emotions casually

女性就可以依賴一點 Women can rely a little more

可以哭哭啼啼等等 You can cry, cry, etc.

這些對兩性角色的定義 These definitions of gender roles

結果也是造成在兩性溝通的過程有很多的不順暢 As a result, there are many difficulties in the communication process between the sexes.

更加的鞏固了童年裡面 It further consolidates the inner feelings of childhood

男性那種心理的圍牆 The psychological wall of men

導致兩性有時候同床而夢 As a result, the two sexes sometimes sleep in the same bed

大家原來有很多不同的期待 It turned out that everyone had many different expectations

他說這些問題是要處理的 He said these issues need to be dealt with

但是往往現在到了今時今日 But often now it’s today

無論是在政府 Whether in government

在職場裡面 in the workplace

企業裡面來講都是一樣 It’s the same in companies

並沒有完全平等在看待兩性的角色 There is no complete equality in viewing the roles of both genders

男性要定義自己 Men need to define themselves

我是何人呢？ Who am I?

我是位教授 i am a professor

我是位律師 i am a lawyer

我是位醫生 i am a doctor

我是位工程師等等 I'm an engineer, etc.

這些工作的崗位 these job positions

往往對於男性來講 Usually for men

是更加重要去定義自己是一個什麼人 It is more important to define who you are

女性如果就算可以做家庭主婦的話 If women can be housewives

未必一定會覺得有一個很不妥的東西 You may not necessarily feel that there is something very inappropriate

但是如果是女性做事很厲害 But if a woman does something very powerful

男人留在家裡面去照顧家裏的話 If a man stays at home to take care of the family

他會覺得有很多的尷尬 He will feel a lot of embarrassment

所以人 so people

特別男性是以工作定義自己的角色 Men in particular define their roles by their work

定義自己是一個什麼人 Define who you are

這個這樣的做法 This approach

這個這樣的文化的話 If this kind of culture

也導致這一種兩性的溝通加強了困難 This also makes communication between the sexes more difficult.

這本書最終想講什麼呢？ What is this book ultimately about?

他說要解決這些同床異夢 He said he wanted to solve these strange bedfellows

親密的陌生人的問題 intimate stranger problems

其實要回到就是 In fact, the only way to go back is

教養小孩子 educate children

應該要出現co-parenting There should be co-parenting

就是父母大家要更加平等 That is, parents should be more equal

共同去撫養小孩子 to raise children together

這樣的過程裡面 In this process

如果爸爸都用很多時間 If dad spends a lot of time

在家庭裡面去照顧小孩子的話 If you take care of children at home,

男孩子的成長過程裡面 Inside the growth process of boys

他就不需要這麼早建立一個心理的高牆 He doesn't need to build a psychological wall so early.

因為他所依附的人 Because the person he is attached to

比如爸爸在身邊這樣 Like this when dad is around

他也可以去認同他的話 He can also agree with his words

他就不需要有一個這麼高的圍牆 He doesn't need such a high wall

他可以和女性的成長的經歷比較接近的話 If he can be closer to the growth experience of women,

是能夠更加容易去溝通 It is easier to communicate

那兩性將來成長之後 When the two sexes grow up in the future,

和有個親密關係的話 If you have a close relationship with

也不會有這麼多溝通的障礙 There won’t be so many communication barriers

但是co-parenting But co-parenting

就是父母都要用這麼多時間 Even parents spend so much time

去教育小孩子 to educate children

其實涉及到有很多方面的事情 In fact, it involves many aspects

社會的政策是不是能夠給多一個空間 Can social policies provide more space?

男性都一樣可以參與照顧小孩子 Men can also take part in taking care of children

特別是小孩子在很小的時期裡面 Especially when children are very young,

文化上來説是不是可以接受 Is it culturally acceptable?

爸爸一段時間裡面來説 Dad will tell you in a while

用這麼多時間在家庭裏 spend so much time at home

而不是在職場那裏去奮鬥 Instead of struggling in the workplace

這些無論是政策或者文化 Whether these are policies or culture

必須有相當的調整 There must be considerable adjustments

才能夠做到這種co-parenting的出現 Only then can this kind of co-parenting appear.

最後使得小孩子在這些家庭長大的過程裡面 In the end, the children grow up in these families

大家更加建立一個可以溝通的心理狀態 Everyone can establish a more psychological state in which they can communicate.

以至到他們成長之後 Even after they grow up

對於情愛以至到家庭 For love and even family

是有更加大的幫助 is of greater help

這個留待我下一講 I’ll leave this for my next lecture

講到一個叫做Normal Chaos of Love Talking about a story called Normal Chaos of Love

愛情的正常性混亂 Normal sexual confusion in love

那本書裡面去講一講 Let’s talk about it in that book

遇到這些結構性的問題 Encountering these structural problems

政策性的問題 policy issues

我們下次再見 See you next time

拜拜 Bye-Bye