The Origins of Satan
Summary
TLDRIn this thought-provoking discussion, scholar Elaine Pagels explores the evolution of the figure of Satan from ancient mythology to Christian doctrine. Tracing the character's origins in Jewish, Christian, and even Zoroastrian traditions, Pagels examines the development of Satan as both a symbol of evil and a complex narrative character. She delves into how societal conflicts and political motivations have shaped perceptions of good and evil, cautioning against oversimplification in understanding human behavior and historical events.
Takeaways
- 😈 The concept of Satan has evolved over time, starting from pre-Christian stories about angels and developing into the more recognizable figure associated with evil in later religious traditions.
- 📜 In the Hebrew Bible, the term 'Satan' originally means 'accuser' and does not refer to a singular evil entity but can be a title for anyone who takes on that role.
- 🕊️ The portrayal of Satan as a powerful being in charge of evil forces emerged later, possibly influenced by stories from the Dead Sea Scrolls and the interplay of social and political conflicts of the time.
- 🔗 The development of Satan as an 'Overlord of evil' seems to intensify around the time of the Babylonian exile and may have been influenced by Zoroastrianism's concept of an eternal battle between good and evil.
- 🚷 In the New Testament, Satan is depicted more explicitly as a malevolent force, with the Gospel of John presenting a particularly strong contrast between Jesus, as the embodiment of God's work, and those who oppose him as belonging to Satan.
- 🛡️ The Gospel narratives may have shifted blame for Jesus's crucifixion from the Romans to the Jews as a means of self-preservation for early Christians and to distance themselves from accusations of insurrection.
- 🕊️ The idea that 'the Jews killed Jesus' has roots in the Gospels and has had lasting impacts, contributing to Christian anti-Semitism and legal disabilities for Jews in Christian-dominated societies.
- 🔗 The Book of Revelation further develops the character of Satan, presenting a vision of his ultimate defeat and temporary restraint, followed by a release that signals a final confrontation.
- 💬 The interpretation of biblical figures and events, such as the serpent in the Garden of Eden, varies widely among different religious and philosophical perspectives, including Gnostic views that see the serpent as a positive figure.
- 🧐 The discussion underscores the complexity of using religious texts to understand historical figures like Satan, highlighting the importance of considering social, political, and theological contexts.
- 🌐 The evolution of the Satan figure serves as a reminder of the dangers of oversimplification in conflicts and the potential for religious narratives to influence societal attitudes and behaviors.
Q & A
What is the traditional view of Satan in religious contexts?
-Traditionally, Satan is viewed as an invisible being responsible for all evil and suffering in the world, often depicted as a character created in Jewish and Christian traditions, with origins in various ancient mythologies.
What is the origin of the image of Satan as a red devil with horns, pitchfork, and tail?
-This image comes from pre-Christian stories about angels, where some angels failed their duties and mated with human women, resulting in demonic, spiritual entities. Over time, these stories evolved and influenced the depiction of Satan in religious narratives.
How does the concept of Satan in the Hebrew Bible differ from later Christian interpretations?
-In the Hebrew Bible, there is no character specifically described as an Overlord of evil or a seriously malevolent spiritual being. The concept of Satan as a powerful being in charge of evil forces developed later in Christian tradition.
What is the significance of the term 'Satan' in the Hebrew Bible?
-The term 'Satan' in the Hebrew Bible means 'accuser' or 'adversary' and is used as a title for someone who opposes or obstructs others, rather than referring to a singular entity called Satan.
How does the Book of Job portray the character of Satan?
-In the Book of Job, Satan is depicted as a member of a spiritual council who has God's permission to test Job. This portrayal does not present Satan as an enemy of God but rather as a servant carrying out God's will.
What role does the concept of Satan play in the development of Christian theology?
-The concept of Satan in Christian theology serves as a personification of evil, a counterpoint to God's goodness. It helps to explain the existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and benevolent deity.
How does the Gospel of John present the character of Satan?
-The Gospel of John presents Satan as the archon of the cosmos, the ruler of the world, and the father of lies. This depiction is more extreme than in other gospels, suggesting a powerful, malevolent being in opposition to God and Jesus.
What is the historical context behind the development of the character of Satan in Christian writings?
-The development of the character of Satan in Christian writings is influenced by social and political contexts, including conflicts between Jewish groups, the impact of Zoroastrianism during the Babylonian exile, and the need to distance early Christians from accusations of insurrection against Roman rule.
How does the Book of Revelation contribute to the portrayal of Satan in Christian tradition?
-The Book of Revelation portrays Satan as a defeated enemy of God who is chained and thrown into the abyss for a thousand years, symbolizing a final victory over evil. However, it also suggests a temporary release of Satan, indicating an ongoing struggle between good and evil.
What is the relationship between the development of the character of Satan and the emergence of Christian anti-Semitism?
-The character of Satan was used in some Christian narratives to shift blame for the crucifixion of Jesus from the Romans to the Jews, which contributed to the emergence of Christian anti-Semitism. This narrative served to protect early Christians from accusations of insurrection and to align them with Roman authorities.
How do Gnostic interpretations of the serpent in the Garden of Eden differ from traditional views?
-Gnostic interpretations, such as in the 'Testimony of Truth,' may view the serpent as a figure of truth and wisdom, even identifying it with Jesus, who brings spiritual enlightenment to Adam and Eve, rather than as a deceiver or agent of evil.
Outlines
😈 The Concept of Satan in Religious Traditions
This paragraph delves into the traditional understanding of Satan as an invisible entity associated with evil and suffering. It discusses the origins of the character in Jewish and Christian traditions, with possible influences from Egyptian and Babylonian mythologies. The paragraph also explores the evolution of Satan's image from a figure in early religious texts to the well-known depiction of a red devil with horns and a pitchfork. The conversation highlights the development of Satan from a character in pre-Christian stories about angels to a more prominent figure in religious narratives, including the story of Jesus and the complex portrayal of Satan in the Book of Job.
📚 The Evolution of Satan's Role and Imagery
The discussion in this paragraph focuses on the evolution of Satan's role from a title given to an accuser in the Hebrew Bible to a more defined character in later religious texts. It examines the use of the term 'Satan' in the context of the spiritual council in the Book of Job and the court case in Zechariah, where Satan acts with God's permission. The paragraph explores the development of Satan from a simple label to a spiritual entity associated with evil, with references to the Dead Sea Scrolls and the influence of social conflicts and human communities on this evolution.
🕊️ The Impact of Political and Social Contexts on Satan's Narrative
This paragraph explores the impact of political and social contexts on the narrative around Satan, particularly the influence of the Roman occupation of Judea and the Jewish community's response to it. It discusses the Dead Sea Scrolls and the portrayal of a celestial war between good and evil angels, reflecting the earthly conflicts between different Jewish groups. The paragraph also touches on the role of media bias in shaping narratives and the importance of understanding multiple perspectives, using the example of Ground News as a tool to combat bias.
📜 The Development of Satan in the New Testament
The conversation in this paragraph centers on the development of Satan's character in the New Testament, where Satan emerges as a more identifiable antagonist opposing Jesus and God. It discusses the portrayal of Satan in the synoptic gospels, where Jesus is tempted by Satan in the desert, and in the Gospel of John, where Satan is described as the ruler of the world and the father of lies. The paragraph also considers the influence of Zoroastrianism during the Babylonian exile on the concept of Satan and the development of monotheism.
🛡️ The Historical Inaccuracy of Blaming Jews for Jesus's Crucifixion
This paragraph challenges the historical accuracy of the narrative that Jews were responsible for Jesus's crucifixion, as presented in the Gospels. It explains the Roman method of crucifixion and the necessity of a Roman governor's order for such a punishment, arguing that the stories in the Gospels are not consistent with historical facts. The paragraph suggests that the Gospels' depiction of Pontius Pilate as a weak governor who succumbs to the crowd's demands is at odds with historical accounts of Pilate's ruthlessness.
🚫 The Origin of Christian Anti-Semitism and its Dangers
The discussion in this paragraph addresses the origin of Christian anti-Semitism, which is linked to the narrative that Jews are responsible for Jesus's death. It explores how this narrative developed as a defense mechanism for early Christians to distance themselves from accusations of insurrection against the Roman government. The paragraph highlights the dangers of this narrative, which became legally enforced disabilities against Jews in the 4th century and persisted through the Middle Ages, leading to severe persecution and violence.
🔗 The Connection Between Satan and the Political Climate of the Time
This paragraph ties the character of Satan to the political climate of the time, suggesting that the portrayal of Satan as a powerful entity with control over the world reflects the perception of Rome's rule as oppressive and demonic. It discusses how the Gospel of John presents Satan as the archon of the cosmos and how this depiction serves the narrative of Jesus's mission to overcome the evil force ruling the world. The paragraph also touches on the lack of exorcism stories in John's gospel, unlike the synoptic gospels, and the unique portrayal of Satan's influence over Judas Iscariot.
📖 The Book of Revelation and the Final Battle with Satan
The conversation in this paragraph turns to the Book of Revelation, which presents a vision of the final battle with Satan. It describes the imagery of an angel chaining Satan for a thousand years and then releasing him for a short period. The paragraph explores the significance of this vision, which reflects the belief in a temporary victory over evil before its ultimate defeat with the return of the Messiah.
💬 The Complexity of Satan's Character and its Impact on Perceptions of Good and Evil
In this final paragraph, the discussion concludes with a reflection on the complexity of Satan's character and its impact on how people perceive good and evil. It emphasizes the importance of avoiding simplistic labeling of conflicts and individuals as purely good or evil, and instead calls for a more nuanced understanding of social and political issues. The paragraph highlights the potential dangers of stereotyping and hostility that can arise from such polarized views.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Satan
💡Accuser
💡Apocalyptic
💡Evil
💡Gnostic Gospels
💡Anti-Semitism
💡Polarization
💡Exodus
💡Zoroastrianism
💡Pontius Pilate
💡Manifesto
Highlights
Satan is traditionally considered an invisible being responsible for all evil and suffering in the world, with roots in Jewish and Christian traditions.
The concept of Satan as a spiritual being with a bad reputation has evolved over time, influenced by pre-Christian stories about angels and the idea of fallen angels.
In the Hebrew Bible, there is no character of an Overlord of evil or a seriously malevolent spiritual being, suggesting a later development of the Satan figure.
The development of Satan as a character in Christian tradition shows him as both a victim of divine punishment and a powerful being overseeing the punishment of other sinners.
The word 'Satan' means 'accuser' in Hebrew and was a title that could be given to someone, rather than referring to a singular entity.
The Book of Job and Zechariah present Satan as part of God's spiritual council, acting with God's permission rather than as an enemy of God.
The Dead Sea Scrolls reflect the belief in a war in heaven between good angels and those who turned away from God, influencing the developing concept of Satan.
The Gospel of John presents a more explicit depiction of Satan as a malevolent spiritual being in opposition to Jesus and God.
The New Testament's portrayal of Jesus being tempted by Satan in the desert and the idea of Satan as the father of lies may have been influenced by earlier Jewish and Zoroastrian concepts.
The Gospel of John suggests that anyone who opposes Jesus or denies he is the Son of God belongs to Satan, reflecting a stark division between good and evil.
The shift of blame for Jesus's death from the Romans to the Jews in the Gospel narratives may be an attempt to distance Jesus's followers from accusations of insurrection.
The Gospels' depiction of Pontius Pilate as a weak governor acquiescing to the Jews' demands for Jesus's crucifixion contradicts historical accounts of Pilate's ruthlessness.
The Book of Revelation presents a vision of the final victory over Satan, who is chained and thrown into the abyss, though he will eventually be released.
The Gnostic Gospel of the Testimony of Truth offers a revolutionary view of the serpent in the Garden of Eden, suggesting it was a figure of truth rather than deception.
The evolution of the Satan figure in religious texts reflects social and political conflicts, as well as theological developments over time.
The discussion highlights the complexity of interpreting religious texts and the dangers of oversimplifying conflicts by labeling one side as good and the other as evil.
Transcripts
Ela pagels welcome back to the show
thank you good to be here Alex good to
see you who is
Satan what a great
question Satan
is traditionally thought to be an
invisible being responsible for all evil
and suffering in the
world uh actually a character
created as far as I could tell in Jewish
and Christian tradition although he have
had forerunners in sort of Bad actors in
Egyptian mythology Babylonian mythology
there are you know Gods who do Very Bad
Things um he's not a God but he is seen
as a spiritual being with a bad
reputation and a lot of people will have
an image of the Red Devil with the horns
and the Pitchfork and the big tail what
is what is that and where does that come
from
well when I first thought about the
topic of Satan I thought of it as kind
of a joke you know the a little cartoon
figure like the one you
mentioned but when I I started to think
why is why is that figure really part of
the way Christians talk about the story
of Jesus the way Muslims talk and even
now Jews speak about Satan much more
than they used to where did that come
from and I real realized that it it
comes from pre-christian stories about
angels and God creates the god of Israel
creates everything good presumably and
all of the Angels were good so to speak
if you ask St
Augustine but but even in the Hebrew
Bible there's a story about how some of
the Angels who were charged with
protecting the Earth failed their Duty
and they went down
and uh
were desired human women the Angels were
all masculine in in Greek myth I'm sorry
in well not only Greek mythology but in
Jewish mythology the angels are all have
male names and the story in Genesis 6
says that there were some of these sons
of God as they're called benol who sons
of God can either refer to Angels or
humans but often refers to Angels some
of the sons of God fell in love with
human women desired them and came down
to earth and mated with them and the
results of those hybrid unions between
humans and Spiritual Beings were sort of
demonic kind of spiritual
entities and and that's part of the
story in Genesis very strange
story but later around the time of the
of Jesus and before some
some Jewish thinkers turned it into a
much grander
story yeah I mean that idea of Satan as
some kind of example of a foolen angel
is quite common in the Christian
tradition and yet it's difficult to
pinpoint exactly where that comes from I
mean Satan is seen by some as the sort
of Overlord of the underworld it's like
he's in charge of the place and he's
punishing Sinners but on other accounts
he himself is someone that's being
punished by God for sin and there's
imagery in the Bible of him being
chained up for a thousand years and and
thrown into the abyss and so perhaps you
can help us clarify here you know is
Satan this victim of punishment of
divine punishment for his sins or is he
some kind of powerful being that
oversees the punishment of other Sinners
well actually the answer to that is yes
he is both I mean in Christian tradition
he's had 2,000 years to be a character
originally as I said it comes from
Genesis 1 he's one of the Angelic beings
who does something wrong and then is
gives gives rise to evil forces on the
earth Genesis six right and but what I
discovered and this was a surprise to me
having been raised in nominally
Christian tradition to realize that in
the Hebrew Bible there is no such
character as an Overlord of evil or even
a
a seriously malevolent spiritual being
just not there even in the Book of Job
people remember that it talks about the
Lord talks to Satan and the Satan says
have you considered my servant job and
so forth they have a quarrel and because
of Satan's accusation of job the Lord
allows the Satan to punish job and make
him suffer just to see what he'll do but
he's not there an enemy of God when I
started to look at this I was surprised
to see nothing in the Hebrew Bible
suggests that God has a spiritual enemy
up in heaven it's only after the the
Hebrew Bible is written that Jews and
then later Christians develop that
character into what you said uh a great
Overlord of the forces of evil yeah the
development of Satan and the concept of
Satan is fascinating to me you have a
book called the origin of Satan which
I'll I'll link down in the description
um the earliest sort of well some some
of some of the points at which the word
Satan is used I mean the word Satan
means something like accuser it can mean
something like
accuser it it's it's comes from a verb
meaning to obstruct to block someone and
so in in Hebrew you have the word at one
point that one of the Angels uh blocked
balum that's in Numbers
22 um put up an obstacle in his way
because it comes from the word to
obstruct or to block and later the the
Greek word diabos devil comes from the
word of uh it means somebody who throws
something at you so it's like you're
walking along somebody throws a huge
obstacle right in front of you and and
you know and frustrates you and that's
that's what the Satan can do even as a
servant of God um but that's not the
picture you get in later
sources no Satan I mean the the word
Satan meaning something like accuser is
used uh in the Hebrew Bible to refer to
uh like a person that is not to a
singular entity called Satan or the
Satan but rather it's a title that can
be given to somebody if they are an
accuser so it's used in like first
Samuel for example but then you do get
this development there are two points
where you get reference to the Satan
that is not Satan like somebody who's
given the label of an accuser but
someone who is identified as the Satan
the accuser that's who they are and one
of those you've already mentioned is the
Book of Job where God sort of has this
spiritual Council who he's like
discussing things with and the Satan the
accuser is one of the members of the
spiritual Council and so even in this
story of you Satan taking power over job
and ruining his life it doesn't seem
like he's doing it out of some anger
towards God or something he's doing it
with God's permission as if he's part of
the council uh the Satan is also
referenced in Zechariah 3 uh where Satan
is kind of like a a judge in a in a sort
of strange court case right we could
call him Devil's
Advocate yeah because that that's who he
is and the court that you mentioned
quite rightly is a court of Spiritual
Beings that those are angels the Ben
Elohim the sons of God are angels and
they're all clustered around God they
are his courtiers they do his bidding
they fight his Wars for him and they do
what he tells them and the Satan in the
Book of Job as you said he can't act on
his own he's he has to request
permission from God to do everything he
does to do and then job gets it all back
as you know at the end of the story so
he's not really against God he's one of
the Servants of God and so we have this
idea of a character who seems to be the
father of some kind of malevolence I
mean he's the one given the task to to
upset job's life but it's sort of done
under God's command and I was I was
reading about this and the story of job
and the story of Zechariah are written
sort of during or after the Babylonian
exile and there's some suggestion that
it's around this time that we see this
devel velopment of Satan from being a
simple label of accuser into more of a a
spiritual entity that is the father of
evil is that right it is and and where
you really find it developed is in the
Dead Sea Scrolls because as in the
Zachariah story you
mentioned what it comes out of I think
are conflicts in the human
Community when I first was trying to
study where did Satan come from I was
reading some books by Jeffrey Burton
Russell who's a professor University of
California who actually wrote five books
on the subject and in one of the books
he he started by saying the figure of
Satan has nothing to do with social
history and I stopped there and I
thought now that is such a wrong
statement and frankly such a stupid one
that I'm going to look for the social
history of Satan what does it mean to
tell stories like the ones you mentioned
Alex
what does it mean for the human
Community because you're not just
talking about conflict up there with God
and Satan having a battle in the
stratosphere it
also reflects down here on Earth there's
a conflict between two
groups your group is in inspired by
Satan my group is inspired by God and
that's the story from which it comes so
when groups of Jews clash in Zechariah
about the Exile and what to do the story
of Satan comes
up and when the people of the Dead Sea
Under Roman occupation of Judea say we
can't live under domination of these
Roman emperors and their armies we
refuse to allow them to control our
country as if it were their satellite so
we're going out in the desert we're
going to start a new community
that is pure that has nothing to do with
the Jerusalem community in Jerusalem
that's collaborating with the Enemy
namely the Romans and so in the Dead Sea
Scrolls they talk about a war in heaven
between the good Angels who are loyal to
God and the angels who turn away from
God and actually seduce the sons of God
which means the human uh God's human
uh Community which are the people of
Israel the men of Israel in particular
so they they want to say we the
community that has seceded from the
Roman population I'm sorry from the
Jewish population controlled by Rome we
out in the desert who have nothing to do
with that we are God's people but but
the evil power has seduced the whole
rest of the Jewish community and they're
cooperating with the Romans
and therefore they have gone over to the
dark side and they serve the Satan they
call them they call them Baul which
means I think it is power of Darkness I
have to check that or Lord of the Flies
there's many names for the evil one um
but and he's called Prince of Darkness
so he has a a number of names but he has
many underlings who are the other Angels
who have turned away from God and that's
the picture you get yet in the Dead Sea
Scrolls before the time of Jesus can you
tell us before we move on to the Jesus
element uh what are the Dead Sea Scrolls
I don't think I don't think I've done an
episode on them so it would be uh useful
for those who who don't
know the deadsy scrolls are consist of a
of a of a
library of a of a devout religious
community of Jews developed about a 100
bcee that's after the Romans basically
took
over Judea and ruled it in their way and
even appointed the chief priest at
Jerusalem
and put Jewish satellite Kings in power
Herod the Great was one of them he was
Jewish but he's like the Eastern
European provinces under under Russia
right he's one of them but he's totally
controlled controlled by the the the
massive outside government Rome and
so uh it was those people who were
preoccupied with conflict between good
and evil it was both down on Earth
between us in the sacred Community which
has nothing to do with the Romans and
those other Jews who are collaborating
with Rome so that's that's what it means
on Earth
when they're picturing this scene in
heaven with a greatly elaborated picture
of the forces of evil contending against
God we'll get back to ELA pagels in just
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with that said back to elame pagels well
there's a particular text amongst the
Dead Sea Scrolls called The Book of
Enoch which as far as I'm aware I
haven't read it uh details this the kind
of thing you're talking about in in
extreme detail I mean it's a it's it's a
long text where we really begin to see
this idea of the Demonic and the Satan
that we know and hate today uh start to
develop right
yes and it's interesting you mention
that because the idea among Jewish
groups of the time is that there's only
one
nation that has a quality of Holiness to
God and that is Israel so Gentiles don't
even count they are not in a spiritual
battle they are
simply devoid of spiritual anything they
worship false god
Gods Egyptians Babylonians Romans you
name them they're all not even in the
running the only people who matter are
the sons of God and that is as I said it
can be a term either for Spiritual
Beings or for the human beings who who
are on the side of
God and so Enoch and the others
basically say well yes there were evil
angels that fell you can read about them
in Genesis 6 just a little episode
but now they've taken over Israel
they're trying to seduce Israel they are
targeting God's people and
they're delivering many of God's people
over to the dark
side so we're seeing this development
and I want to track this very plainly
for people listening we begin with this
title Satan accuser which can be applied
to people and is applied to various
people throughout the Hebrew Bible and
then on two occasions you end up with ha
Satan or the Satan which is a sort of
specific character in The Book of Job
the book of Zechariah but here this this
Satan is not quite like the evil
Overlord Satan it's sort of part of
God's Council in in in some sort of
strange form
um in some apocryphal literature here
we're beginning to see a more sort of
traditional satanic figure and demonic
realm emerge
then we get to the development of the
New Testament Cannon we get the figure
of Jesus and we get people beginning to
write a whole new series of scripture
and suddenly Satan is cropping up
everywhere right if you read the New
Testament three of the gospels the
synoptic gospels right near the
beginning have Jesus being tempted
explicitly by Satan in the desert John
mentions Satan by name three times as
sort of fulfilling specific tasks in the
gospels so suddenly Satan appears in
full force as this identifiable
character and Mastermind of evil and in
opposition to Jesus and and to God so
what causes this sudden development of
the character of Satan well there was a
precedent because when that sacred
community of Jews Like a kind of
Monastery went out into the desert to
oppose the Jews collaborating with Rome
they already had a character of The
Prince of Darkness the Satan the ba who
had
many many demonic forces underneath him
like an army of evil
beings and so that really preceded Jesus
and I think the story of Jesus uh is
very much shaped by what you see in the
Dead Sea schools the idea that some
people members of Israel men primarily
are under the power of the spirit of God
and worship the right God
and others in Israel are on the side of
Satan so
Jesus the story of John the Baptist many
people think he was a member of the Dead
Sea Scrolls or at least I'm sorry he was
a member of the of the community that
created the Dead Sea Scrolls and had a
whole sacred library with many books
that talk about satanic beings
fighting God people and God's
spirit um John the Baptist was probably
one of them because he was talking the
language of the end of time saying well
evil is taken over the world uh God is
about to take it back the end of time is
coming he's going to judge all the evil
people and you better be on God's side
you better be baptized purified from
your sins and ready to meet your God
right that's John the Baptist message
and the story of Mark first introducing
Jesus says he was among the the the
Jewish group who came out listened to
this preacher in the wilderness saying
better watch out the end time is coming
God is going to judge the world the
Judgment Day is near and Jesus goes out
with
others to be baptized purified of
sins uh in the Jordan River and then uh
is presumably under the spirit of God so
his follow s had the same kind of
cosmology and it as you see it works on
the ground here where the humans live
and it's same as what's up
there so let's talk about that uh
although first I wanted to ask if you
give any Credence to the idea that I
mean we we mentioned that this idea of
the Satan began to emerge around the
time of the Babylonian exile Babylon
being not too far from Iran which will
have had a zoroastrian religion which
yes has an idea of of an eternal battle
between good and evil some have
suggested that whilst the Jews are
exiled in Babylon they come into contact
with
Zoroastrianism and it's this influence
that helps to develop the character of
Satan do you think there's any Credence
to be given to that theory oh I think
it's quite likely I mean Babylonian I
mean that mythology um zoroastrian you
know it's it's the power of the good God
against our who is an evil force and the
Egyptians have a similar uh idea of an
evil force against the right Gods so
there's precedent there's a book by a
British scholar called the old enemy uh
the old fory a literary study of the
precedents to the Hebrew idea yes and he
does a very good for that yeah I had a
wonderful episode not long ago on the
history of Yahweh as a sort of Desert
Storm God turning into the the god of
Israel and the god of Christianity and
uh Dr Justin Sledge who was my guest
suggested that the Babylonian exile was
also partially responsible for the
development of monotheism he said that
you know you had this localized god of
the temple and the Babylonian exile
explodes this because there's there's no
more sort of local temple to go to and
so you either have to get rid of your
God or say that your God is this
omnipresent being that's not a localized
agent and so you you end up with the
development of mon ISM interestingly
here it seems that around the same time
perhaps due to the zoroastrian influence
we also begin to get the origin of Satan
so it's like Yahweh and Satan as these
opposing Spiritual Beings in the Jewish
tradition seem to emerge around the time
of of Babylon what a significant event
that was in the history of the religious
tradition absolutely I mean it it it
transformed the Jewish community and
that's when you see this kind of
conflict and part of the conflict on the
Jewish side is how do we respond to the
Babylonian conf ERS do we fight them or
do we cooperate with them and that's the
same tradition with which they came into
Roman
occupation so let's talk about the New
Testament then uh which we were sort of
skirting around the edges of a second
ago um as I as I said the Gospel of John
only mentions Satan three times by name
uh the first of these is where Jesus is
arguing with some of his Jewish
opponents and he says to them that that
they're not children of Abraham they're
Children of the devil this is where the
mention of of the Satan appears and this
Satan is described as a murderer from
the beginning and the father of lies and
Jesus says here to his opponents you are
the children of the devil not the
children of Abraham what did he
mean well it's very shocking the Gospel
of John is the most extreme of the four
gospels um in this regard it suggest
that Jesus comes from God and does the
work of God and everyone who opposes him
or who
denies that he is the only son of God uh
belongs to Satan any traditional Jew who
doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah
and actually as God in
person God incarnate belongs to Satan
you see this
today with Christians who follow the
Gospel of John that if you believe in
Jesus as the Son of God you're saved
you're right you're on the side of God
if you don't you're damned to Eternal
darkness and suffering that's very
extreme but that's where this tradition
takes it and what do you think has been
the the impact of verses like this in
the development of religious traditions
I think it's very
unfortunate because many people
today and this in also includes people
who are
secular often see the world see for
example
politics from the point of view of
there's a good side and an evil side we
don't have two sides struggling for
territory or power simply against one
another we
see good and evil I'm talking American
politics today and politics in many
countries and it sort of emerges out of
this view of the world that good and
evil are fighting a nearly equal battle
up in heaven now good will Edge it out
that's the apocalyptic story good will
win in the end but in the meantime evil
forces may take over
and so whether you're talking about
Adolf Hitler whether you're talking
about people
today um it's the scenario of Good and
Evil that plays very strongly in
political life in countries that are
primarily
Christian uh or Jewish or
Muslim and Jesus says here in the Gospel
of John that this devil this Satan is a
murderer from the beginning the father
of Lies seeming to lean into this
concept of Satan as this malevolent
spiritual being as opposed to some kind
of subservient member of God's Council
suddenly in in the Gospel of John we've
got a very explicit depiction of the of
the Satan that we that we'd recognize
today right absolutely and it probably
is re referring to the story of Cain and
Abel the first evil Act is the brother
kills his brother right he's a murderer
from the beginning and that's probably
saying the first murder was evidence
that from the beginning of time not from
the beginning of of this
Century uh Jesus would have said but
from the beginning of time the Gospel of
John suggests there was always uh almost
an equal force and that looks very much
like the
Babylonian uh vision of Supernatural
power yes superatural conf there's
another mention of uh Satan in John
chapter 12 where he's described as the
archon of the cosmos which is kind of
interesting yes
um it means literally the ruler of the
world when Jesus says in John I see the
ruler of the world is coming he's
substituting what you find in the other
gospels for Jesus saying in the Garden
of Gethsemane I see Judas
coming so Judas there is cast in The
Gospel of John as
Satan's Satan in
person well that's the that's the third
mention of Satan in the Gospel of John
is where the author of John specifically
says that when Judas betrays Jesus it's
because Satan enters Judas and that's
what causes him to to betray Jesus Satan
enters him right after the supper when
and he says Jesus says go out and do
what you have to do knowing of course
that he's going to betray Jesus
and then finally the last mention right
is when he speaks with pilate were you
going to bring that one up no no tell me
Well Jesus at his trial according the
way John tells it which
is completely counterfactual I must have
say he says Jesus actually gives the
sentence pilate never does Jesus
says uh pilate is questioning him and
Jesus says no the one who turned me over
those who turn me over to you have the
greater sin who do you blame for the
death of
Jesus the
Jews the Jews are crying for the death
of Jesus that is the story you get in
Matthew and you get it in John and what
startled me when I began to work on this
the history of Christianity is to
realize that is an impossible story
historically that the Jews were
responsible for the death of Jesus that
could not have happened tell us
why
because how do you crucify somebody Alex
you have to have an army you have to
have equipment you have to have the men
who know how to do it this is a
technique that was developed by the
Romans as the worst possible punishment
for slaves and people in Revolution
against Rome in subordinate people
Romans could not stand in subordination
order was everything in the Roman Empire
and so anybody who protested against the
Roman Empire was condemned to the worst
possible death which is
crucifixion so crucifixion was Radical
extreme form of death the only person in
Judea the now captured
province Roman province where the Jewish
people lived was the
governor and you could not crucify
anybody unless the governor had given
the
order but the stories about Jesus
suggest that the governor never ordered
his
crucifixion that cannot have happened
any historian of Rome Fergus Miller
professor at Oxford University has
said The only person who can give the
order would be the governor of of Rome
so Jesus was crucified and there are
witnesses both Roman and Jewish at the
time who say yes and the person who gave
the order of course was the governor
pilot tacitus says that and the Jewish
historians Josephus says that that's
a I was going to say that's a known
fact because if you look at the famous
book by military historian GCS Brandon
Jesus and the zealots he begins by
saying there's really only one
fact which we can know for sure about
the story of Jesus and that is that he
was crucified by the Romans as a rebel
against their governor their their
government in Judea that's a fact as
close as you can get to any fact in the
New Testament but that's the fact that
is contradicted by the Gospel of John
and the gospel of Matthew and that's
what started me so much when I was
looking at how that
counterfactual story plays out on the
ground politically and socially so why
then why the inclusion of this story
which uh at least in your opinion is so
blatantly
ahistorical the reason for
that why followers of Jesus
suggested that if you read the four
gospels pilate never sentences Jesus in
fact every writer avoids the point where
the sentence would have to be
given if you read the gospels who
sentenced Jesus to death the chief
priests at a trial that probably never
took
place and pilate is this weak little guy
who's saying wait a minute wait a minute
I I think this man is innocent
he tries in Luke three times to say
Jesus is innocent I don't want to
crucify him in Mark he saysi going to
let him off he's not
guilty what is going on here and in
Matthew he tries very hard to defend
you in in John he becomes a philosopher
talking to Jesus with great
respect and so who's responsible for the
death of Jesus I mean pilot pilot asks
for the balll of water to to wash
I I I I have nothing to do with this
with this righteous man right he says
he's a righteous
man um but he never condemns Jesus in
any of the four gospels and all of them
have the Jews outside the residence of
pilate are saying crucify him crucify
crucify and pilate is this weak little
guy who just can't stand up to what is
right and he finally says I give up I
mean you do it I wash my hands of
it that's the story that in the gospels
why
because I was trying to figure that out
why and the and the answer I think has
to do with the fact that if you Alex are
a follower of Jesus of
Nazareth and he was crucified for
sedition against our government you
probably have the same politics if you
are a follower of Bin Laden
we know what your politics are no matter
what you say you can deny it but we know
you and this is like saying he's a
follower of Bin Laden he's he's a
traitor to the government um he his
followers can say we're not traitors but
they must be their Insurrection is just
like their leader Jesus so what happened
after the death of Jesus when there was
the Roman War and the Roman and there
was a huge Jewish Revolution against
Rome in the name of God and our common
Liberty
the Romans came in after four
years utterly devastated Judea they
burned the center of Jerusalem to the
ground tore down the temple which you
see today and Jerusalem thrown to the
ground these huge Stones they destroyed
Jerusalem as a Jewish stronghold and
they set up a Roman camp in its
place
and when they found followers of Jesus
one of them was his brother
James one of them was Peter an
outstanding uh an
outspoken follower of Jesus who was
preaching about Jesus in Rome when they
find Paul who's preaching about Jesus in
in
Syria they crucify Peter uh Paul is
beheaded and James is stoned to death
followers of Jesus are in danger because
they are assumed to
be of the same Politics as Jesus namely
insurrectionists so how if you're a
follower of Jesus you defend yourself I
don't think he was an insurrectionist he
never tried to raise an army there's
very little evidence of
weapons but how do you defend yourself
if if people assume that that's who you
are you say
well okay he was crucified and Roman
soldiers did it and we know that because
nobody else had the equipment or if Jews
were going to kill someone they'd ston
him to death that was
traditional they didn't have equipment
to crucify people they didn't know how
to do it it's a Roman
crucifixion but why was it done because
the Jews insisted because they
overpowered the governor they talked him
into it they forced his hand right he
just couldn't stand up to the
crowds and so that's the story that the
that the followers of Jesus tell they
say look it was a big mistake that trial
he the governor tried tried to let him
off it was the Jews who
insisted and they're the people
responsible for the death of Jesus not
the Romans because we knew he was
innocent all along this is when they're
preaching the Gospel of Jesus to Greek
and Roman crowds 40 or 50 years after
Jesus had been killed so it's Shifting
the blame for Jesus's death from the
Romans to the Jews as a way to quell
concerns about the followers of Jesus
being
against the
government and to save their own lives
to save their own lives
and um and and they were of course
mostly Jewish so they could be suspected
of
insurrection no
so is this something like the beginning
in your view of Christian anti-Semitism
this this idea of the Jews as the
condemnable population who are really
responsible for the death of Christ not
the Romans uh do you think this is where
this idea originates absolutely it is
and so I was teaching the origin of
Christianity uh recently and and one of
the students who said I was in your
class I didn't know because we had about
nearly 300 students in the class and I
said oh so what surprised you because
his background was Jewish he said that
the Jews didn't kill
Jesus and I said you believe that he
said yes I I've heard that my whole
life and I was shocked because he was in
a very educated family but this is a
very common thing right that the Jews
killed Jesus this has been said by
Christians it's part of the Christian
story it's part of the box beam liner
Mass um and the St Matthew passion it's
the way Christianity tells its
story and the question then would be
how do you know that that's not what
really happened right how does Brandon
know that that is not true well he says
because we know Roman law and Fergus
Miller says impossible you can't crucify
without the governor now how do we know
the governor didn't crucify Jesus um the
reason is oh did is that the gospel's
picture pilot for their own
purpose as this very weak man right he
just can't stand up to crowds he just
gives in you know the story we all know
the
story but that's not who Pilate
was when you read the two most informed
Jewish writers of the first century one
of them a contemporary of Jesus his name
is Pho of
Alexandria he's from a highly educated
family his nephew is the ethnarch of
Egypt that is his Jewish nephew in spite
of the fact that he's jewi Jewish is
working hand and glove with the with the
Roman who is the the head of Egypt for
Rome and the the agent of the of the
person ruling Rome for Egypt is a Jewish
young man who is a cousin of Josephus
who writes a book called The Jewish War
very detailed study of the first century
it's a huge
book Josephus was
actually um a general in the Jewish War
he fought against Rome he was put in
prison for fighting against Rome and
then he became trusted by the Roman
general Titus for helping the Romans
after he was captured and he was freed
and he wrote a famous book called The
Jewish War and the Jewish Antiquities to
try to persuade Romans after the war
that Jews were an ancient and educated
and highly moral and philosophic people
and why he ended up with the with the
romanized name flavus Josephus because
he becomes yes accepted into the into
the Roman
household and he was honored by the
Romans he was given a villa in Rome um
and he wrote this book to speak about
the glory of his people so that Gentiles
would get the point I started speaking
about pho of Alexandria who a little
younger than Joseph cus was a
contemporary of Jesus and he
was the most prominent representative of
the Jewish community in Alexandria which
they say consisted of about a quarter of
the city of Alexandria when it was the
capital of Egypt just as there were they
say a quarter of Rome was Jewish uh many
Jews lived in Rome and many in
Alexandria but when the alexandrian Jews
wanted to write a petition and get it to
the emperor on behalf of the community
in Egypt they sent Josephus as head of
the delegation of distinguished men to
present their case to the emperor and
Philo wrote a famous document he wrote a
great deal was a very devout
Jew wrote many books about Genesis and
so forth but he also wrote about his
delegation to the emperor of Rome who at
that time was uh
Emperor was
Claudius it was Claudius that he went to
see but he he writes in
his uh account of his Embassy to Rome
that that pontious pilate was known to
be brutal
cruel um he he exploited people he
everybody the Jews hated him he says he
often did frequent executions with no
trial he was absolutely hated by the
Jewish people because he was a ruthless
and horrible Emperor and finally he was
recalled by Emperor Tiberius and
probably told to commit suicide because
the Jewish Community hated him so much
that man was
ruthless he didn't
bother checking out if a somebody
accused a Jew accused of sedition was
guilty it is more what you'd see in the
Life of Brian he just said oh yeah
another one of those guys
just crucify him he crucified thousands
of people there were when you see this
depiction then of pilate in the gospels
being this very reticent no no this
man's innocent sort of battling with the
idea literally washing his hands at one
point uh washing his hands of the of the
crime this seems to be out of accord
with our extra biblical account of who
pilot was it's completely at odds with
anything we know historically about
pilot in fact that act of washing hands
to demonstrate innocence is a Jewish
ritual Romans didn't do that so the
whole story if you ask Roman historian
Fergus Miller at Oxford I think former
professor at Oxford at this point I
don't know whether he's still
teaching um if you ask anyone who knows
Roman
history um Brandon in his book Jesus and
this Zealot makes this point very
powerfully uh the pilot you see in the
gospels is not the pilot who was ruling
Judea at the time of
Jesus
so help me tie this back into the idea
of Satan because we sort of started with
Satan and talking about Satan as this
character in the New Testament who's
become this demonic figure uh and now
we're talking about the origin of
Christian anti-Semitism and the nature
of pontious pilot how do we tie that
together what I realized Alex is is that
when Mark starts his gospel he's not
just writing a history there is history
in it some of it there are biographical
and historical elements but primarily
it's a message about Jesus of Nazareth
and primarily it's a
Manifesto and he starts up by
saying telling a story about a
man whose origin is prophesied in the
book of Isaiah that's John the Baptist
and then man comes up to him and is
baptized and the spirit of God descends
on Jesus of Nazareth and a voice from
Heaven says this is my beloved
Son in him I'm well pleased and
immediately it says the
Satan the spirit sent him Jesus Into the
Wilderness to battle against the evil
evil force presumed to be ruling the
world since Rome was ruling the world
many devout Jews Jesus's followers
included and the Dead Sea Scrolls
Community also believe that evil is now
ruling The World God has to take it back
so if Jesus comes from God his task is
to overpower the evil force first and he
does it initially in Mark but the whole
story of Mark is hey the fight isn't
over the evil power is not giving
up he in fact
Engineers he he he possesses
people to oppose Jesus and finally get
him
crucified and even when he succeeds in
that the evil power succeeds in that
Satan gets him crucified by going into
Jes in into Judas just as John said and
Luke says the same um even then he
doesn't win the war because God finally
takes Jesus back from the dead and he is
going to rule the world in the future
that's the story the gospels to there's
this very strange sense I mean we
described John describes Satan as the
archon of the cosmos in in John chapter
12 we spoke about that a moment ago he
said it sort of means ruler of the of
the world and when Satan is tempting
Jesus in the desert at one point he sort
of shows him he takes him up a a
mountain and shows him the land and says
this can all be yours if you'll just bow
down to me implying that Satan is the
ruler of the world at this point the
Satan seems to many devout Jews like the
ruler of the world because it's ruled by
Rome and Rome
worships crazy gods that aren't Gods
from the Jewish point of view demonic
Powers right it's very interesting in
John's gospel that well throughout the
synoptic gospels that is Matthew Mark
and Luke Jesus Is A Healer and he's also
an exorcist and he goes around casting
demons out of people and so there there
are people who are demonically possessed
and Jesus goes up to them and upon you
know hearing the name of the Lord they
they all sort of flurry and disappear
John's
gospel doesn't have exorcisms Jesus
doesn't go around exercising people uh
there's no exorcisms of of demons in the
way that there is in the synoptic
gospels in John what you do have in John
is this idea of Satan the archon of the
cosmos the the man who sort of enters
into Jesus so again seeming to sort
of take this character of Satan and and
move this sort of vague demonic idea
even further away from this from this
sort of being that is subservient to God
but somehow out of his favor or angry
with him to this like specific
malevolent entity with power with power
over the world with power over people
rather than just being some kind of
Fallen Angel or demonic figure
especially in the Gospel of John Satan
becomes this very identifiable uh
character that's why I was interested in
what I call the Social history of Satan
because it's not just about a a
spiritual battle it's about a very human
I mean when people talk about
supernatural battles they say Satan's
trying to take over this country they're
not just talking about something up
there they're talking about people they
could give you names and
addresses right they know who Satan's
peoples are and it's not whoever was
speaking to you but in John's gospel as
you say when Jesus says look the ruler
of the world is coming he's pointing to
a man and that man is Judas into whom
Satan has come and who through whom
Satan is speaking betraying Jesus right
and then Jesus says those who turn me
over to you have the greater sin so it
is it is Judas and then Matthew says the
whole people cried for the crucifixion
of Jesus which I think and I think most
Scholars think is not what happened at
all because if you read the gospels up
to that point the crowds are all in
favor of Jesus they can't even arrest
him in public because people would
protect him right so it's a real
disconnect in the stories Alex that that
we've
missed because of the way the story has
a coherence right um the way it's told
and it becomes the story about the Jews
killed Jesus and throughout the Middle
Ages when you suddenly have oh let me
just go back and say as long
as Jesus's followers are being
persecuted for 300 years after his death
that story isn't dangerous to Jews it
protects
them Jesus's followers are
protected but when the emperor becomes a
Christian in the 4th
Century as one writer
says Christian prejudices against Jews
who don't accept Jesus become legal
disabilities then in the 4th century
you find Christian Emperors writing law
codes in which converting someone to
Judaism if you're a
rabbi can incur the punishment of being
burned to
death that's in the first Christian Law
Courts in the 4th Century only when Rome
is in power does this become dangerous
to Jews and then throughout the Middle
Ages there are laws against the Jews
which I didn't really know about before
until I became much more aware of How
Deeply this is embedded in Christianity
frankly I was shocked and dismayed
really
upset I went to my professors at Harvard
and I
said Christian anti-judaism is written
right in the
gospels and one of my
professors who by the
way had been in Nazi army and a member
of the Nazi
party captured by the G by by the allies
and imprisoned during the war and then
exonerated he he's a famous Professor of
Bible
German he said to me there's nothing
anti-jewish in the New Testament that's
just not
true
um he he he didn't tell the truth
he may not have even known but he
claimed there's no anti-Semitism in it
even when I spoke with a another
Christian colleague she said but
Christianity is all about
love and I
said at its best it
is but there's an undercurrent in it
that allows for hate and when I wrote
this book about this saying wait a
minute how is this written into the
gospels they weren't trying to kill
other Jews they were trying to save
other Jews who were followers of Jesus
but only when Christians are entirely
distinct from Jews and mostly Gentiles
and allied with the Roman government
that becomes really dangerous after
Constantine the game changes
completely so well I I would love to
talk about your personal reactions your
personal motivations for talking about
Satan and and where this comes from but
I I think just to to to close off our
development here so we've sort of gone
all the way
from from the very beginnings of the of
the of the Hebrew Bible all the way up
through John's gospel uh there's also a
mention of Satan in the Book of
Revelation um sort of again further
develops as a character and Revelation
chapter 20 tells us then I well this is
this is part of the vision that that the
author presumably the author of John
same author here is having um then I saw
an angel coming down from heaven he had
in his hand a key to the hole without a
bottom or to the abyss he also had a
strong chain he took a hold of the
dragon that old snake who is the devil
or Satan and chained him for a thousand
years the angel threw the devil into the
hole without a bottom he shut it and
locked him in it he could not fool the
Nations anymore until the 10,000 years
were completed after this he must be
free for for a while so this image of
Satan in Revelation is interesting
because we have this victory over Satan
he's chained up he's thrown into the
abyss but there's also this strange
reference to him not being able to fool
the Nations anymore until the thousand
years are completed and then he goes
free what's that all about well that is
probably a picture that comes it really
comes um from someone writing either
right before the gospels are
written perhaps at the same time as the
gospels that is written by a devout
Jewish Prophet who sees Satan in control
of the world because the Romans are in
control of it when he's writing and he
has this traditional picture that the
world is ruled by Satan we can see that
look at the the Roman the Romans have
Roman troops all over
Judea this this country of Israel has
been destroyed but in the end time when
the Messiah returns John sees us Jesus
John the Baptist he says then God is
going to destroy that old Serpent and so
many apocalyptic people see that the
same
way um so that picture is really not
like the picture of the gospels of Satan
it's much more like the followers of
Jesus in the first century and do we do
we know what that thousand years is
about the the sort of thousand years and
then afterwards he goes free for a while
yeah I mean even in in in the gospel of
Mark it says that uh you
know Jes the son of man in heaven will
rule the world after a time and they
don't specify the time but sometimes
apocalyptic writers like to do
that I I may say that after I wrote that
book I was really stunned by what I
saw and then James Carroll I don't know
if you know his book uh James Carroll
was a was a Catholic priest he read my
book he was very
troubled to think that anti-Semitism had
been carried on in Catholic tradition
for thousands of years and he went back
to World War II and he saw the evidence
of this I believe he left the Catholic
priesthood in any case he wrote a book
called Constantine sword which did what
I couldn't do I wished I could take the
story of Christian anti-Semitism from
the 4th Century to the
21st I did I can't do that I'm a
historian I couldn't possibly try to
deal
with 2,000 years Carol was a priest but
he he connected the dots through the
2,000 years in his book called
Constantine sword he did a film about it
as well with the same title so if
anybody's interested in the history of
Christian anti-Semitism through the 21st
century that book takes us through
it yeah well I'll I'll try to remember
to link that in the description if
people are interested or in the show
notes if they're listening
um do you
think where the Book of Revelation says
there he took a hold of the dragon that
old snake who is the devil or Satan that
snake some people might think is a
reference to the snake in the Garden of
Eden do you think that that is a
reference to the Garden of Eden and do
you think that Satan is the snake in the
Garden of
Eden I always used to assume so because
Christian painters like Michelangelo
always picture the serpent as
the voice of Satan Jewish Trad tra
thinkers traditionally didn't do that
but they sometimes do now because
they've adopted the same much of the
same imagery of Satan and so have
Muslims
so that is often seen as Satan but
traditionally Jews saw the serpent as a
cunning
snake yeah I mean I've
apocal yeah
I've heard it said that that might be a
reference to another snake uh and it
might in other words it might not be a
reference to I you might think that well
when the when Genesis was written uh
there was no idea that the snake was
Satan the concept of Satan didn't really
exist and at a later point when the
author of John is writing Revelation he
writes about this reference to the snake
in order to sort of give that identity
to the serpent but I have heard that it
could also be not this not the serpent
in the Garden of Eden it could refer to
something else but but it's also Alex in
in uh in Psalm 27 I believe in which no
it's Isaiah Isaiah 27 Isa yeah in which
in which um the prophet calls on the
Lord to destroy the serpent that old
serpent that that called Satan and the
dragon looks very much like a snake so
you can translate serpent um as as a
monstrous a monstrous sea serpent as as
Babylonians pictured the evil
forces well that's that's what i' that's
what I'd heard was was that there's this
sort of idea that it might have been the
the great sort of sea basilisk that's
being referred to here instead it's it's
it's I mean it's pretty cryptic we don't
we don't know for sure um and in fact
I've I've spoken about this air a fair
bit and I think my listeners will
probably be familiar with this but there
is a Gnostic Gospel and I have a hunch
that you know a thing or two about the
Gnostic Gospels uh there's one Gnostic
Gospel discovered in the nomadi library
which takes a fairly revolutionary view
to as to what this serpent in the Garden
of Eden was
right yes and that's a reference to the
Gospel of John which says that the
serpent was Christ and it's referring to
the opening of The Gospel of John which
says when Moses lifted up a serpent in
the wilderness it was an image of a
staff with a snake which is the image of
medicine right the god uh God asclepius
you know that's the symbol of this God
of healing in Greece still this cuse
they call it right the symbol of medical
treatment and so when Moses lifts up the
staff in the wilderness with snake on it
there's a healing and so John's go
applies that to
Jesus Jesus is the serpent in the
wilderness and that's where that those
connections are made John says you know
as as Moses lifted the serpent so I must
be lifted so so sort of identifying
Jesus with a serpent at
least Jesus on the cross is identified
with exactly that Serpent of aus who
brings healing isn't that amazing now
that's the serpent that Moses is talking
about but this yes this Gnostic Gospel
I'm talking about the testimony of truth
goes back to the Genesis story and looks
at this serpent who finds his way into
the Garden of Eden and and sort of tells
Adam and Eve look you know you're not
going to die you'll just become like God
knowing good and evil and they eat the
fruit and that's exactly what happened
it's like the serpent didn't even seem
to tell a lie and so the author of this
testimony of truth it's called is is
like what God is this what God is this
that that lies to Adam and Eve I mean
who is this serpent that's basically
coming in and telling the truth and well
the author tells us
right yes that author is very hostile to
Jewish tradition and saying yes you know
the whole tradition uh is not true
because the serpent was saying if you
eat from that fruit you will become wise
and that's what happens they don't die
they become wise that's what the story
says so the serpent was right all along
and it's another instance of
identification of the serpent with Jesus
as if to say and in in the Gnostic
tradition we've done a whole episode on
this I've talked about the
Gnostic ideas quite a lot now in in a
lot of Gnostic uh thought the creator of
the material world is this sort of evil
Demi urge type figure and so the god of
the Garden of Eden of Adam and Eve this
figure who walks through the garden and
tells them not to eat of the tree is
this sort of
evil or malevolent or uh or maybe just
incompetent figure and so the snake is
the is the mechanism by which the true
God and Jesus is able to sort of come
and bring the the the message of
Salvation to to Adam and Eve by giving
them sort of by like opening their eyes
spiritually so it's this total reworking
of the idea of Satan as the serpent it
it flips it on its
head well you're beautifully
illustrating how people play with these
texts you know they can turn them every
way and turn them around around and say
oh yes and the opposite is true and it
works this way instead and so these
texts regarded as scriptures get played
like instruments with very different
Tunes as just as you said now just
before we we wrap up here because we've
done our history of Satan is is
essentially complete of course we've
only just skimmed the surface and you
have an entire book I've already
mentioned the origin of Satan on all of
this kind of stuff um but we've we've
gone from Genesis and exodus we talked
about job and Zechariah we've gone
through the gospels through to
Revelation um this this seems to be
something that well you've written about
it you know a lot about it why why Satan
it's a bit of an odd subject to to
choose to focus on
now well I don't know I it does seem to
me that when I look at the way
people polarize the world and
human groups between good and evil it
can be very misleading you know I mean
it made me think that I I wouldn't
wouldn't call most human beings good or
evil because most people are quite
mixed but that's not to say it's
relative I would say when it comes to
acts Alice Axel pardon me Alex when it
comes to acts like the slaughter of
innocent people Slaughter of children
I know that's evil you know that's evil
just instinctively there are evil acts
that people do but to call people evil I
think can really lead
to extreme stereotyping and extreme
hostility which is
unnecessary in most
situations I mean I would say those acts
are evil but does that make all those
people evil not necessarily
H so terrible things done what's the
take-home message from
our sort of Investigation into Satan and
realizing that this is a character who
has socially evolved who has been used
by different people for lots of
different reasons uh be it a sort of
theological tool for explaining evil or
a narrative character or a social Factor
as uh as helping to uh sort of butress
the the anti semitism that has riddled
the history of Christianity what's the
take-home message from realizing that
this Satan character is not a
straightforward as people might
think well for me it it it says that
when we're dealing with conflict today
whether it's social political
personal labeling one side as good and
the other as evil is far too simplistic
and I think it's a false way to deal
with conflict that I think conflict
between human beings is much more
complicated than that almost always
unless somebody is
advocating
um some acts that are atrocious you know
like massive rapes massive
killings destroying innocent people um
so I I just would like to set aside and
say that is mythological language
folks and it has its functions but I
think we're dealing with social and
political issues let's talk about the
real
Stakes um here on Earth for both sides
uh and not label each other in that way
which can lead to much more intense
conflicts than
otherwise certainly well as I say and
I'll say it for the third time the book
is the origin of Satan and it will be
linked in the description down below I
hope people will go and read it if
they're interested
and hopefully we've learned a thing or
two about Satan I know that I have in
preparing for this episode and in
speaking to you now so Ela pagels thanks
again for taking the time it's always a
pleasure to have you on the show thank
you it's been wonderful talking with you
watch my previous episode with elae
Pagel on the Gnostic Gospels by clicking
the link that's on your screen if you
want to support the channel and get
Early Access add free to these episodes
then you can do so at alexo con.com by
subscribing to my substack thanks for
watching and I'll see you in the next
one
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