Why I'm an anarchist | Sophie Scott-Brown full interview | Anarchy and democracy

Summary

In this insightful discussion, the guest explores the nuances of anarchism, emphasizing community-based and grassroots approaches rather than chaos. They discuss the potential of direct democracy and how it can be practiced at various scales, addressing concerns about its feasibility in complex societies. The conversation also touches on the challenges liberal democracy faces from populism and the importance of listening to people's concerns to strengthen democratic practices.

Takeaways

• 🤔 The concept of freedom cannot be imposed; it must be intrinsically sought and increased in any given situation.
• 🏛 The traditional view of authority and leadership often centers on large entities like the state, but the speaker emphasizes community-based, grassroots approaches.
• 🌱 Anarchism, particularly in its pacifist forms, is about community and direct democracy rather than chaos or fear, contrary to common misconceptions.
• 🔄 Change is a key factor in anarchist thought, with leadership being situational and non-permanent, allowing for flexibility and adaptation.
• 👥 Direct democracy is not just an ideal but a practice that can be implemented in everyday life, even if not recognized as such.
• 🗳️ Concerns about direct democracy's feasibility on a large scale like the UK are addressed by considering federated communities and syndicates for complex societies.
• 💡 The speaker advocates for direct democracy as both an end and a means, focusing on increasing democratic practices in existing spaces rather than creating new systems.
• 🤝 Democracy is about managing conflict creatively rather than striving for impossible consensus, respecting the intelligence and decision-making capabilities of individuals.
• 👂 The right's ability to listen to and politicize people's concerns is highlighted as a strategy that the left often fails to employ effectively.
• 🌐 The speaker's personal journey from a self-reliant learner to an advocate of anarchism shows the importance of autonomy in learning and political thought.
• 📚 Intellectual biographies are used to explore how individual lives are shaped by social relationships and interactions, emphasizing the importance of context in political commitment.

Q & A

What is the main concern raised about the concept of freedom in the transcript?

The main concern is that freedom cannot be forced upon someone, highlighting the paradox of dictating how to be free.

How does the speaker view the relationship between anarchism and leadership?

The speaker suggests that there is nothing inherently wrong with leadership in anarchism, but issues arise when leadership becomes permanent and institutionalized.

What is the significance of Colin Ward's book 'Anarchy in Action' as mentioned in the transcript?

Colin Ward's 'Anarchy in Action' is significant because it emphasizes the everyday negotiations and discussions in communities, workplaces, and homes as forms of direct democracy without the need for permanent leadership.

What is the role of change in the concept of anarchism discussed in the transcript?

Change is a crucial factor, as it is important to acknowledge and adapt to it within the anarchist framework, allowing for the possibility of different individuals to take on leadership roles as circumstances evolve.

How does the speaker address the concern that direct democracy might not work on a larger scale like the United Kingdom?

The speaker suggests that direct democracy is not just about achieving a consensus but is more about the practice of democracy itself, which can be increased in existing spaces without needing to dictate how it should be organized on a large scale.

What is the stereotype associated with direct democracy that the speaker mentions?

The stereotype includes the idea that direct democracy is associated with certain lifestyle choices like eating lentils, having drum circles, and using incense, which can be off-putting to some people.

How does the speaker differentiate between liberal democracy and democracy as a practice?

The speaker differentiates by stating that liberal democracy is a set of institutions and a historical formation, whereas democracy as a practice or verb refers to the way of deliberating on decisions and being politically engaged.

What is the speaker's view on the rise of populism and its relation to democracy?

The speaker believes that populism can be a response to people's anxieties and concerns, which are often not addressed by traditional political systems. They suggest that more democracy, in terms of listening to people's concerns, could help protect liberal democracy.

How does the speaker's personal experience with education relate to their views on anarchism?

The speaker's resistance to the regimented nature of school and their self-reliant approach to learning mirror the principles of anarchism, which values individual autonomy and community-based decision-making.

What is the significance of the speaker's interest in intellectual biography in relation to anarchism?

The interest in intellectual biography helps the speaker explore how individuals are shaped by their social relationships and interactions, which aligns with the anarchist belief in the importance of community and direct democracy.

Which historical anarchist figure would the speaker have liked to have a conversation with, and why?

The speaker might have liked to converse with Kropotkin due to their early exposure to anarchist literature and the influence of figures like him in shaping their understanding of anarchism.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Exploring Anarchism and Leadership

The speaker begins by discussing the paradox of promoting freedom without dictating it, then transitions into a conversation about authority and leadership, particularly in the context of post-war anarchist thought. They emphasize pacifist, community-based forms of anarchism that focus on grassroots democracy and direct action. The speaker challenges the notion that anarchism equates to chaos and the absence of leadership, instead proposing that leadership is acceptable as long as it is not permanent or institutionalized. Colin Ward's work, 'Anarchy in Action,' is highlighted as an example of how everyday life is filled with negotiations and decisions that do not require permanent leadership roles.

05:00

🗳️ Direct Democracy and Anarchist Practice

This paragraph delves into the concept of direct democracy and its feasibility on a large scale, such as within the United Kingdom. The speaker acknowledges the skepticism and stereotypes associated with direct democracy, including the assumption that it leads to a lack of structure or even dangerous populism. They argue that many people already practice elements of direct democracy without realizing it, such as making group decisions with friends. The speaker also discusses the idea of federated communities and guild socialism as potential models for organizing a complex society, emphasizing that direct democracy is both an end and a means to achieving a more democratic practice in existing spaces.

10:01

🛑 Addressing Populism and Democratic Challenges

The speaker addresses concerns about the rise of populism and its potential dangers, noting that while some groups may use direct democratic methods to form ideologies that are concerning, it is important to engage with these movements rather than ignore them. They discuss the political right's ability to tap into genuine concerns and fears of the public, turning them into successful political campaigns. The speaker suggests that increasing democratic practices and listening to people's concerns are key to countering populism and protecting liberal democracy.

15:03

🌱 Personal Journey to Anarchism and Self-Reliance

In this paragraph, the speaker shares their personal journey towards anarchism, starting from their early resistance to the regimented nature of school. They describe their upbringing, where they were encouraged to read and think independently from a young age. This led to a self-reliant approach to learning and a natural inclination towards anarchism. The speaker reflects on how their minimal relationship with formal education allowed them to pursue interests freely, fostering a passion for learning and a resistance to conforming to predefined patterns of life.

20:05

🤝 The Importance of Democratic Engagement and Biography

The speaker concludes by discussing the importance of engaging in democratic practices and the role of intellectual biography in understanding the individual's place in society. They express a desire to meet historical anarchist figures for lively discussion, highlighting the value of learning from the past while also appreciating the work of contemporary thinkers. The speaker emphasizes the need to be politically committed without having all the answers and to understand that democracy is best served through practice, not just in theory.

Keywords

💡Anarchism

Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates for the absence of hierarchy and authority in favor of self-governance and voluntary associations. In the video, the speaker discusses post-war anarchist thought, particularly pacifist forms that are community-based and focused on direct democracy. The concept is explored in the context of leadership and authority, where it is suggested that leadership is not inherently wrong but becomes problematic when it is permanent and institutionalized.

💡Direct Democracy

Direct democracy refers to a system where citizens directly participate in the decision-making process rather than through representatives. The video discusses the feasibility of direct democracy on a large scale, such as in the UK, and contrasts it with the idea of federated communities or guild socialism. The speaker emphasizes that direct democracy is not just an ideal but a practice that can be incrementally implemented in existing spaces.

💡Leadership

Leadership, in the context of the video, is the ability to guide, direct, or facilitate actions within a group. The speaker challenges the assumption that anarchism precludes leadership, arguing instead that leadership is acceptable when it is not permanent and does not become institutionalized. The video suggests that leadership should be fluid and adaptable to change, with different individuals potentially taking the lead as situations evolve.

💡Authority

Authority in the video is discussed in relation to leadership and anarchism. It traditionally refers to the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience. The speaker notes that while anarchism is often misunderstood as the complete absence of authority, it is more nuanced, suggesting that authority becomes problematic when it is fixed and not subject to change or challenge.

💡Community-Based

The term 'community-based' highlights the importance of local, grassroots initiatives and decision-making in the video. It is used to describe forms of anarchism that emphasize the role of communities in self-governance and direct democracy. The speaker mentions that community-based approaches are integral to the functioning of anarchism, as they allow for more immediate and relevant decision-making processes.

💡Grassroots

Grassroots refers to the most basic level of society or organization, suggesting a bottom-up approach where decisions and actions originate from the community itself rather than being imposed from above. In the video, the speaker is interested in forms of anarchism that are grassroots, focusing on the importance of local involvement and direct participation in decision-making.

💡Colin Ward

Colin Ward is an individual mentioned in the video who wrote a book called 'Anarchy in Action.' His work is used as an example of how everyday life can be organized through negotiation and discussion within communities, families, and friendship groups without the need for permanent leadership. Ward's ideas suggest that spontaneous cooperation and organization are already present in society and can be harnessed for more democratic practices.

💡Populism

Populism is a political approach that seeks to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are not being addressed by established elite groups. The video discusses the rise of populism and its potential dangers, such as the formation of groups with ideologies that may be considered questionable or frightening. The speaker notes the importance of addressing these concerns through more democratic practices rather than dismissing them.

💡Federated Communities

Federated communities, as discussed in the video, refer to a model of organization where smaller, self-governing communities come together in a larger federation to coordinate on broader issues. The speaker mentions this as a potential solution to the challenge of implementing direct democracy on a larger scale, such as at the level of a country like the UK.

💡Guild Socialism

Guild socialism is a political and economic system that advocates for the organization of society into self-governing groups based on place of work or industry. In the video, the speaker refers to guild socialism as a model for organizing a complex modern industrial society through syndicates or workers' control, which aligns with the principles of direct democracy and community-based decision-making.

💡Democratic Practice

Democratic practice in the video refers to the active engagement of individuals in decision-making processes within their communities or groups. The speaker argues that increasing democratic practices can be a means to enhance freedom and autonomy. This includes the idea that direct democracy is not just an end goal but also a means to achieve more democratic ways of living and working.

Highlights

The paradox of dictating freedom and the importance of increasing freedom in any given situation.

Anarchism's broad spectrum and the focus on pacifist, community-based, grassroots forms emphasizing direct democracy.

The misconception that anarchism equates to chaos and the absence of leadership or authority.

Colin Ward's perspective on leadership in anarchy, emphasizing non-permanent and non-institutionalized forms.

The role of everyday negotiations in communities, families, and friendship groups as a form of direct democracy.

The challenge of implementing direct democracy on a large scale, such as the UK, and the skepticism surrounding it.

The potential of federated communities and guild socialism as models for complex modern societies.

Direct democracy as both an end and a means, focusing on increasing democratic practices in existing spaces.

The necessity of voluntary and spontaneous participation for true direct democracy.

Democracy as a process for managing conflict creatively rather than avoiding consensus.

Addressing the rise of populism and the need to listen to people's concerns within democratic practices.

The role of intellectual biography in understanding the individual's place within social relationships and interactions.

The personal journey from a self-reliant learner to embracing anarchism and its principles.

The importance of practicing democracy in everyday life and the challenges of formal education on individual freedom.

The potential of direct democracy to protect liberal democracy by fostering a culture of listening and respect.

The evolution of the speaker's interest from glamourized radicalism to a deeper engagement with democratic practices.

The significance of historical figures like Colin Ward and their impact on contemporary understanding of anarchism.

Transcripts

I would fall into Paradox very very

quickly if I start dictating to you how

to be free right we all know you can't

be forced to be free right but what I

could do instead is ask well in any

given situation how might you increase

the amount of Freedom that's available

to

[Music]

you hi so Sophie um when most people

think about um Authority and Leadership

they tend to think about you know big

calized bodies like the state um but in

your work you think of it slightly

differently could you tell us a bit

about that please yes I do so I work a

lot on um well post-war Anarchist

thought and um in particular I mean

because anarchism is a very broad church

with many different forms of it and I'm

particularly interested in pacifist

forms I'm particularly interested in

those forms that are very Community

Based very Grassroots um very focused

around PE uh people and direct ocracy

and obviously in when you sort of look

at at these sorts of ideas uh these

Notions of leadership and Authority you

know they they're quite they um they

take on of new and challenging forms now

some people sort of think immediately

make the Assumption well it's anarchism

right by definition that means there can

be no leader or no no forms of authority

um and in fact no organization in fact

most for most people anarchism is just

is chaos and it's something to be feared

and something to be um

something to be

avoided but actually the sort of uh

ideas that I look at have a slightly

different take and they say that

actually there's nothing inherently

wrong with leadership in and of itself

but there is something wrong when that

becomes permanent and that becomes

institutionalized um what is more

interesting to these kind of thinkers um

one of the figures I work on for example

is an individual called Colin Ward and

he wrote a book called Anarchy in action

and it was very much based on on how in

our everyday lives in our sort of

workplaces and our communities and our

homes our families and our friendship

groups um we are constantly busy

negotiating or discussing uh working out

what we're going to do how we're going

to do it and we don't actually need to

appoint some permanent forms of

leadership in order to achieve this

sometimes you know sometimes that there

is that presence in some family

structures uh they they cleave to a very

particular form of of um interaction

perhaps as a male head of the family

perhaps a female but actually in many um

places and circumstances you don't have

that so I think

um the interesting thing for me when I

was sort of moving through these ideas

and working through them was to get rid

of this idea you have to eliminate

leadership in this sort of great

fraternal cuddly sense of absolutely

everyone in agreement it's you you know

it's not necessarily you need to get

complete consensus on something it can

be that there is someone who has a

particular strength or a particular

understanding a particular Insight on

something that you want to

achieve and then by all means people

should listen to them or if there is a

sort of natural sense to which they are

able to to direct or guide or facilitate

something happening then by all means

respect that but the big thing is it

doesn't become permanent and that when

things change and change is possibly the

most important factor in this form of

Anarchy um and acknowledge change and

living with the fact that things change

in a meaningful

way at some point somebody else is going

to be better placed to take that role so

that's sort of that's the kind of nuance

to leadership that I think these

Anarchist ideas bring yeah thank you

that makes a lot of sense so um in your

in your answer there you mentioned

direct democracy and obviously you know

this has been discussed in the UK before

um I think maybe the consensus view is

that um even though the ideal of direct

democ rcy is um very worthy it's

something I think people would like to

embody um there's a general consensus

that it's sort of unlikely to work on

the scale of the United Kingdom even

though it might work at more local

levels um could you speak to us about

you know what what does the anaka say to

that kind of worry few interesting um um

points there but yes absolutely it's

generally it's not just that it's sort

of laudable but unrealistic some people

actually very much don't feel it's it's

laudable at all some people um sort of

think it's veering being towards kind of

more dangerous forms of populism and you

can't deny that it does have that within

the tradition there are certain

voluntary groups that have existed in

history um that are spontaneous and

cooperative and and and work for very

very questionable or or frightening

things and we are to some degree seeing

things like that and that's something

that you know I certainly feel that I

need to address and confront and not

evade um the other big um sort of

stereotype that goes with it is that if

it's direct democracy then you're going

to be having lentils for lunch there's

going to be a drum circle and at some

point the incense is going to be lit um

and I'd avoid the brownies if I were you

yep that's in there too that I means

most stereotypes kind of have sufficient

grains of Truth in order to keep them

perpetuating and these are sort of

factors that do put people off I think a

lot of people don't realize the extent

to which they're already practicing

direct democracy and just not realizing

it like I said in my um previous uh

previous response on the question of

leadership so many times if you are

capable of being within a group of

friends and organizing something or

deciding on something then you're

actually capable like the the raw skills

and processes and mechanics of that um

you've got them they're in there so it's

not so I sort of push back on the on the

on the notion that it's impossible human

beings living together and trying to

work that out is in essence what we're

talking about here now you also

mentioned in the question sort of okay

but how would this work on a United

Kingdom scale and indeed you know how

would you work that on a kind of global

scale we we have to sort of look at the

issue these direct democracy

communities such as might have been en

visaged by someone like Jean Jac rouso

for example even he back in the sort of

18th century said well it's too late now

modern societ modern industrial society

is too complex we can't go back to nice

little cozy peasant communes um no

matter how hard we try um and part of me

is attracted to the cozy little peasant

commune apart from the fact that you

know having grown up in a very rural

part of part of Britain um and the idea

of being enclosed in that Community it's

not all candle foot people that's all

I'm going to say um

so yeah interesting notion now the sort

of anism I'm committed to I could speak

to you about Federated communities or

you know and and the the fact that far

from being an acronis you know these

sorts of models of federation so for

example you've got kokkin notion of

Federated communities slightly updated

by I think of gdh Cole in the mid in the

mid-century he talked about Guild

socialism and those sorts of Notions how

you organize sort of a complex modern

industrial society by through sort of

syndicates or workers control there are

all those models out there and they're

useful to be able to sort of present the

sort of anarchism I um that interests me

the most doesn't really like to kind of

paint ideal social orders for me it's

always far more of a of a practice and

in this in this sense I sort of cheat a

little bit so I say well I don't need to

worry about how you would necessarily

organize or institutionalize direct

democracy de direct democracy that sort

of implies that that's it's direct

democracy is sort of a means to an an

end like the end being you know this

perfect social order where everything's

jolly and lovely and equal and just and

all those good things now that would be

nice but actually I sort of come in

slightly differently and say well for me

direct democracy is kind of the end and

the means Allin one so if I can see any

opportunity in any space existing spaces

and cre and and new ones you know but uh

it's perfectly possible within existing

spaces where people can just increase

the amount of democratic practices that

are available to them with existing

means now that to me is a is a possibly

more interesting interesting angle

although it does feel to some people

like I'm evading the question of how it

might work on a large scale but I sort

of think I don't I would I would fall

into Paradox very very quickly if I

start dictating to you how to be free

right we all know you can't be forced to

be free right but what I could do

instead is ask well in any given

situation how might you increase the

amount of Freedom that's available to

you and that would be Good Start yeah so

so it's about um taking the practices

and some of the skills and the

activities that we're already engaged in

because the whole thing about direct

democracy if it's not voluntary and

spontaneous then it's not direct

democracy so if you invent a new system

and say to everyone this is going to

work you have to do it like this

now that's actually very um it's a

logical fallacy it sort of it collapses

in on itself

immediately uh you have to where people

are actually at with what they're doing

with where they already are and

respecting them as as already thinking

and intelligent beings that that are

capable of making decisions are capable

of cooperating may not want to do it in

the patent or to the order that you've

got in mind and that doesn't mean that

doesn't mean you tolerate anything of

course it's an exchange it's a

discussion democracy is that it's not

for me democracy is not about achieving

a complete consensus and that's the only

means by which it can function right

right right it's actually about how you

have conflict that's creative rather

than catastrophic good so so I wanted to

bring you back to the worry that you

mentioned which which is that there are

um some instances of the past and

unfortunately maybe in the future as

well of people using these kinds of

methods but coming to form groups that

have ideologies or moral views which we

now find to be generally

um and I guess the question I have is

how are we to you know without sort of

disturbing the Democratic nature of this

process how are we to nudge our way off

that path so for example I think when

you nodded your head to it the um the

the new Italian leader is you know

further right than maybe some people are

hoping across Europe um and there are

those sentiments um and I think they

need to be taken seriously as a matter

of Dem ratic practice right this is an

embodiment of what the people of Italy

wanted um but you know I for one I'm

concerned and I get the sense of many

other people too so how how are we going

to use this direct Democratic procedure

to nudge away from some results um yeah

for

me so I think you're you're going

somewhere it's s really interesting here

because and the difference maybe in the

first instance between liberal democracy

is a noun for a set of Institutions and

a historical formation a sociopolitical

formation um that sort of

takes acknowledges or takes its cues

from from particular ideas of ancient

Greece or the ancient um Greek world for

example and has had the majority of its

concentrated development in the west and

in America and places like that and and

now finds itself facing a lot of

questions and and

challenges and then there is a certain

degree of irony to which in order to

protect itself this liberal democracy

capital L capital D proper noun has to

actually kind of to what extent does it

feel that it needs to abandon um

democracy as an adjective or a verb for

a certain way of practicing and being

and and sort of deliberating on

decisions which is what we're

essentially talking about when we talk

meaningfully about

democracy and It's Tricky one of so my

first protocol with the this the the The

Great Wave of populism as it's being

referred to F first of all I I think

it's difficult to think about it that

way and get any and get much further

along along the

tracks the leader I mean the and it's

something the political right has always

been remarkably good at and the

political left has always been

remarkably bad at the political right

have an ear to the ground More Than

People realize and they very good at

picking up perfectly concerns or fears

or worries that are not in them in and

of themselves completely unreasonable

and turning them into a very

well-crafted rhetorical political

campaign uh Margaret thater was you know

she uh Someone I used to work on quite

carefully was the the historian Raphael

Samuel and he once said uh Margaret that

just stole the left libertarian best

lines and used them and used them for

for the right she understood what people

were objecting to and played that to her

advant AG a lot of these movements are

simply recognizing that many people feel

very anxious worried they are conscious

that they're living in systems that

don't seem to be working that there's a

a disjunction or um Distortion between

what they are being told should be the

case and what they are actually

experiencing in their

lives again if you sort of drill in and

start trying to avoid sort of mass or

mob thinking when it comes to populism

you'll have a tiny small minority of

people who are hardcore committed to

these views and a larger group of people

who don't are not finding any other

forms of expression or

representation anywhere else and they

are being welcomed and they're being

given dignity and respect by these sort

of these other sort of sources of power

so they're gravitating towards

them I'm not sure like so in my ideal

um having more democracy right now

democracy the adjective the

verb would be the best way of protecting

the liberal democracy proper noun as a

system um that would be what I would

would

Advocate that we have come so far away

from a culture where we are willing to

listen to people's fears or concerns

especially

when they check or go or run counter to

what we want to

hear and so that's for me that's that's

an important starting

place but it's a frightening one because

obviously it takes time takes time to

win that respect and create those um

cultures of discussion and we are living

at times where uh we don't know how much

time we have for certain

things yeah I mean that I think that's

that sounds right and the the Insight

that the right has been better at

listening to concerns that people have

and turning them into a political

campaign that Rings very true and I me

we saw that in 2016 yeah exactly exactly

so obviously thater but um it's

happening right now it's happening it's

happening as we speak uh in the cabinet

office um so uh I thought we could turn

to some biographical questions um so

You' spoken in the past about your sort

of libertarian beginnings and I wondered

if you could if you could give us a sort

of potted history of how you came to

this interest and anarchism and how you

came to these

views so I was definitely an anarchist

before I knew I was an anarchist um my

mom was a teacher and she uh she made

the Cardinal error of teaching both my

brother and I to read when we were very

very little before we started school and

saying to us if you can read the world's

open to you you won't you know you won't

need anything else oh she should said

that um I tried school and found

that I didn't like like instinctively I

reacted against the regiment the

regimented nature of the day the fact

that I was in cloes the fact I was told

what to read when to read how to read it

before I even had anything resembling a

sort of critical or an analytical

language for these things it was just

and I think this is probably the case

for many people it's an instinctive gut

reaction and I had a few choices

um I could do what many of my peers did

and sort of it was the Prototype of

quiet quitting so you just go there and

you just get through the day and you

just wait for break time lunch time and

home time those are the three highlights

of the

day or another group that just um kind

of sort of uh disrupted their own lives

by by basically rebelling being

um badly behave what have you I decided

to take a third option that that was

simply I just w away I I I continued to

um reject or refuse it was uh yes it was

my first example of resistance I suppose

and uh I was very lucky I had

understanding parents and here's the

here's where the direct democracy came

in they were both of them willing to

hear my point of view even as a child

and the the point you can I was always

told you you can make your case you're

going to receive criticisms on it but

you must if you can make your case if

you can put your point point across we

will listen that was the deal no

guarantees and agreement but certainly I

got a hearing and so one way or another

somehow I managed to sort of bumble

struggle through so the the you know 18

years I I took the exams fairly

independently so I had a very in andout

very checkered very minimal relationship

with formal education and now I come to

look back and I think that that was sort

of extremely important from a very young

age I got very used to being very

self-reliant from deciding what I was

going to read how I was going to

learn if I had been forced through

school I think my passion and enthusiasm

for all that sort of thing would have

been completely extinguished pretty much

annihilated by the time I got to 18 um

the fact that I was choosing what to

pursue and

how and in that process found that

things that I wouldn't normally have

wanted to do like mathematics or science

they weren't sort of natural things for

me but through needing to know wanting

to know about certain things I sort of

quite organically found myself just

being interested in everything and

seeing the value and the and and the

potential value of of everything so that

in a very everyday boring non- exiting

way um was the roots of it and that's

why I suppose when I come ac across

radicalism capital r glamorous Chic you

know sort of um with all your sort of

factions and groups and that that's

that's not that's not the sort of

culture that um that I kind of gravitate

towards there it is strongly sort of

individualist in my case but never sort

of in the isolated individual it's my

way of constantly moving through the

world and being a part of the

relationships and the interactions that

I'm in rather than simply going along

with anyone else's other pattern of life

that leads me to my final question so I

wanted to ask and in fact there might

actually be two questions here now so um

obviously I'm sure there are lots of

thinkers that you would have liked to

meet that you never had the chance um so

I was going to ask um what sort of

historical Anarchist figure would you

like to have a sort of lively dinner

conversation with and what would you

choose to speak about but perhaps there

are two questions in the sense that

maybe one answer for a younger version

of yourself you know who was

experiencing this passion for certain

projects and certain things end in

school education stifling and then now

someone who's embraced this knowingly

you know self- knowledge of what you are

and how it fits with anarchism and where

you fit in in the anarchist

Community well

[Music]

um so my younger self once I got to the

point where I realized that there could

actually be sort of politicized ways of

talking about how I was feeling and

going towards those early kind of that

classic George Woodcock history of

anarchism which uh sort of I I I I don't

think any any student could have got

through the 60s without having a copy I

would hope not but that was actually

really important and that book is I mean

within the anarchist Cannon it does the

useful job of setting out the ancestors

so it's got kokkin in there and it's got

banin and it's got prudon and it's got

tolto and you it's not compulsory to

come from Russia and have a great beard

if you're an anarchist but it helps and

I suppose for me any figure from that

book I was a bit disappointed that there

weren't too many sort of really

interesting sort of female figures um

Emma Goldman is obviously a sort of

interest but but I suppose when I was

younger that was quite important to have

this sort of sense of a a deep a deep

history um and these quite glamorous

exciting figures with their sort of big

ideas and mutual Aid and so I suppose if

I was to narrow it down when I was

younger I think it it would it would

have to be kokkin thing but now actually

in the sort of work I do I I do a lot of

work through intellectual biography

because to me it's a really useful way

of showing how the individual is never

an isolated private separate entity that

actually if you look at biography if we

tell the story of Our Lives we can't do

that without showing all the social

relationships and interactions that go

into to forming any one life and so the

thinkers I look at now um are really

interesting from that respect so Colin

Ward for example Raphael Samuel EP

Thompson um and at the moment I'm doing

a lot of work on fig like who you

wouldn't even and who would never have

called themselves Anarchist people like

gdh Cole or Isaiah Belin now before I'm

I'm not but I'm not saying for one

moment that they were anarchists but

what's really interesting about what

these people are trying to do is what

I'm trying to do it's work out how to be

politically committed without having to

have all the answers and work out how

actually

democracy the conditions for democracy

as a concept are satisfied by practice

you don't always have to have the

finished result to say that you are um

you you are experiencing radical

democracy brilliant thank you very much

I think we might wrap up there thank you

for coming my pleasure for more debates

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