Why Your Coffee Habit Might Be Better Than You Think - Dr Bryan Saunders

Summary

In this informative podcast, Dr. Brian Saunders, a caffeine expert, dispels myths surrounding coffee consumption and its effects on health and sleep. He discusses the benefits of caffeine for exercise performance, the impact of timing on its effects, and the role of adenosine receptors. Saunders also addresses the placebo effect of coffee rituals and the potential for tolerance due to habitual consumption. The episode provides insights into optimal caffeine dosage for performance enhancement and the importance of considering individual responses to caffeine.

Takeaways

• ☕ Caffeine is a potent stimulant that can enhance exercise performance, improve muscle strength, power, and endurance, and is considered one of the most effective supplements for this purpose.
• 🛌 Contrary to some beliefs, there is no strong scientific evidence that drinking coffee or caffeine early in the morning negatively impacts sleep due to cortisol levels.
• 🤔 The idea of timing caffeine intake based on cortisol levels to avoid an 'afternoon crash' is not supported by evidence; individual responses to caffeine vary.
• 🔍 Caffeine works by blocking adenosine receptors in the brain, which would normally promote sleepiness and suppress arousal, leading to increased alertness and wakefulness.
• 💊 Caffeine's effects can be felt even at lower doses, but the optimal dose for exercise performance enhancement is between three to six milligrams per kilogram of body mass.
• 🏋️‍♂️ For those using caffeine to boost workout performance, consuming it about an hour before exercise can be beneficial, though the exact timing may vary based on individual response.
• 🚫 High caffeine intake can lead to negative side effects such as increased heart rate, blood pressure, anxiety, and digestive issues, and can potentially be lethal in extremely high doses.
• 🌱 The source and preparation of coffee can significantly affect caffeine content, with variables like coffee bean type, growing location, and brewing method impacting the amount of caffeine in a cup.
• 🧬 Genetic variations in how individuals metabolize caffeine do not strongly correlate with perceived effects on mood or arousal, suggesting other factors are at play.
• 🔄 While habitual caffeine consumers may develop tolerance, meaning they need more caffeine to achieve the same effect, the performance benefits of caffeine for exercise do not appear to be significantly reduced.
• 📉 Caffeine can have a negative impact on sleep quality, regardless of an individual's perception of its effects, and avoiding caffeine close to bedtime (approximately 9 hours before for regular coffee or 13 hours for high doses) can help mitigate this.

Q & A

Is it true that you shouldn't drink coffee first thing in the morning due to cortisol levels?

There is no strong scientific evidence to support the idea that drinking coffee first thing in the morning is detrimental due to cortisol levels. Caffeine works by blocking adenosine receptors, and the timing of coffee consumption may not significantly impact its effectiveness.

Can caffeine negatively impact sleep regardless of an individual's perception?

Yes, caffeine can have a negative impact on sleep by blocking adenosine receptors, which play a role in the sleep-wake cycle. Studies suggest that individuals may underestimate the negative effects of caffeine on their sleep, even if they feel they sleep well after consuming caffeine.

What role does caffeine play in enhancing exercise performance?

Caffeine is considered a very effective supplement for enhancing exercise performance. It can improve muscle strength, power, and endurance, allowing individuals to lift heavier loads and perform more repetitions.

Is there a specific time to stop drinking coffee to avoid sleep disruption?

Research suggests that to minimize caffeine's effects on sleep, it's best to avoid consuming coffee about nine hours prior to sleep for regular doses and 13 hours prior for larger doses, such as those found in pre-workout supplements.

Can coffee or caffeine consumption be beneficial for health outcomes?

Data generally suggests that moderate caffeine consumption can be beneficial for various health outcomes, including potential benefits for gut health, cardiovascular health, and liver protection due to antioxidants present in coffee.

What is the potential impact of caffeine on adenosine receptors and how might this relate to tolerance?

Caffeine, being structurally similar to adenosine, can bind to adenosine receptors and block their inhibitory effects. Over time, with regular caffeine consumption, the body may increase the number of adenosine receptors as a compensatory mechanism, which could lead to tolerance and reduced stimulatory effects of caffeine.

Is there a significant placebo effect associated with drinking coffee?

Yes, there is evidence of a significant placebo effect with coffee consumption. The expectation of receiving caffeine and the ritual of drinking coffee can contribute to increased arousal and alertness, even beyond the direct physiological effects of caffeine.

Can the benefits of caffeine for exercise performance be negated by habitual consumption?

Some studies suggest that habitual caffeine consumption may reduce the performance-enhancing effects of caffeine, while others show no significant difference. The exact impact may depend on the dose of caffeine provided before exercise and individual differences.

What is the recommended dosage of caffeine for enhancing exercise performance?

The literature suggests a dosage of three to six milligrams per kilogram of body mass for enhancing exercise performance. For a 70-kilogram individual, this equates to about 210 to 420 milligrams of caffeine.

Can the timing of caffeine ingestion before a workout impact its effectiveness?

While there is no definitive data suggesting an optimal timing for peak performance, caffeine typically takes about 30 to 60 minutes to enter the bloodstream and start taking effect. For short workouts, ingesting caffeine about an hour before may be beneficial.

What are some potential side effects of consuming caffeine beyond the recommended safe dose?

Exceeding the safe dose of caffeine can lead to increased blood pressure, heart rate, anxiety, sweating, palpitations, and gastrointestinal issues such as diarrhea or stomach upsets. Extremely high doses can be toxic and, in rare cases, fatal.

Outlines

00:00

🚫 Caffeine Misconceptions Debunked

This paragraph addresses common misconceptions about caffeine, such as the belief that it should not be consumed first thing in the morning due to cortisol levels. It introduces Dr. Brian Saunders, a caffeine expert, who discusses the benefits of caffeine for health and exercise performance. The paragraph emphasizes that while there is a lot of misinformation about caffeine, scientific research generally supports its positive effects, especially when consumed in reasonable amounts.

05:00

🕒 Clarifying Caffeine Timing Myths

The paragraph delves into the myth about the ideal time to consume caffeine, specifically the idea that drinking coffee first thing in the morning is less effective due to cortisol levels. Dr. Saunders explains the role of adenosine and how caffeine works as an antagonist to it, leading to increased arousal and wakefulness. The paragraph concludes that there is no strong evidence to support the idea that caffeine consumption should be timed with cortisol peaks to avoid an afternoon crash.

10:01

🔍 The Science of Caffeine Tolerance

This section explores why some people may feel sleepy or tired after consuming caffeine, possibly due to genetic differences in liver enzymes that metabolize caffeine. It discusses the possibility of upregulation of adenosine receptors in the brain with habitual caffeine consumption, leading to a reduced response to caffeine over time. The paragraph highlights the need for more research to understand individual reactions to caffeine fully.

15:03

☕️ Coffee's Cognitive and Ritualistic Benefits

The paragraph examines the potential placebo effect of coffee and the ritualistic aspects of drinking it, suggesting that these factors might contribute to the perceived alertness and energy boost. It discusses a study that compared the effects of caffeine in water versus coffee on brain activity, indicating that coffee might have a broader impact on cognitive functions, possibly due to the sensory experience and anticipation associated with its consumption.

20:05

💪 Caffeine's Impact on Exercise Performance

This section highlights caffeine's role as an effective supplement for enhancing various types of exercise performance, from short-duration sprints to long-endurance activities. It explains the mechanisms by which caffeine improves performance, such as increasing adrenaline and noradrenaline, blood flow, and glucose availability to muscles, as well as reducing the perception of effort during exercise.

25:05

⏰ Optimal Timing for Caffeine Ingestion

The paragraph discusses the timing of caffeine ingestion in relation to workout schedules. It suggests that while there is no definitive peak time for caffeine to enhance performance, it generally takes 30 to 60 minutes for caffeine to enter the bloodstream and start taking effect. The paragraph advises consuming caffeine an hour before a workout for short sessions and considering the half-life of caffeine for longer workouts.

30:08

⚠️ Warning Signs of Caffeine Overconsumption

This section warns of the potential side effects of excessive caffeine consumption, such as increased heart rate, blood pressure, anxiety, and gastrointestinal issues. It emphasizes the importance of adhering to safe caffeine limits to avoid negative health impacts and suggests that individuals be aware of the total caffeine intake from various sources, including energy drinks and pre-workout supplements.

35:08

🛑 Paradoxical Effects of Caffeine Intake

The paragraph investigates the paradoxical effect of caffeine, where some individuals feel more tired after consumption. It discusses the role of genetics in caffeine metabolism and the potential for upregulation of adenosine receptors with habitual use, which could diminish the stimulating effects of caffeine over time.

40:11

🔄 Resetting Caffeine Tolerance

This section explores the concept of caffeine tolerance and the potential benefits of a caffeine fasting period to reset the body's sensitivity to caffeine. It presents conflicting research findings on the impact of habitual caffeine consumption on the effectiveness of caffeine for exercise performance, suggesting that a higher dose before exercise might be necessary for those with higher daily caffeine intake.

45:12

🌙 Caffeine's Effect on Sleep Quality

The paragraph discusses caffeine's impact on sleep, noting that it can negatively affect sleep quality regardless of an individual's perception. It references a meta-analysis suggesting that avoiding caffeine intake approximately nine to 13 hours before sleep can minimize its effects on sleep, emphasizing the importance of being mindful of caffeine consumption, especially in the afternoon.

50:15

☕️ The Coffee Nap: Fact or Fiction?

This section examines the concept of the 'coffee nap,' where individuals consume coffee and then nap before the caffeine fully takes effect. The paragraph suggests that while this practice seems logical, there is a lack of scientific evidence to support its effectiveness, and personal experiences may vary.

🌱 Factors Affecting Coffee's Caffeine Content

The paragraph explores the factors that influence the caffeine content in coffee, such as the type of beans, their source, and the brewing process. It highlights the variability in caffeine levels between different coffee preparations and the difficulty in standardizing caffeine content, even in commercial coffee shops and pre-packaged coffee pods.

🌍 Global Impact of Coffee Consumption

The final paragraph emphasizes the widespread consumption of coffee as the second most consumed drink worldwide after water. It acknowledges the lack of awareness among consumers about the complex effects of caffeine on the body and the importance of understanding these effects for everyday health and well-being.

Keywords

💡Caffeine

Caffeine is a natural stimulant that is commonly found in coffee, tea, and other beverages. It works by blocking adenosine receptors in the brain, which helps to increase alertness and reduce the feeling of sleepiness. In the video, caffeine is discussed as a significant component of coffee that can enhance exercise performance and has various health benefits. The script mentions that caffeine can improve muscle strength, power, and endurance, and also discusses its potential negative effects on sleep.

💡Adenosine

Adenosine is a compound in the body that rises throughout the day and plays a crucial role in the sleep-wake cycle. It is an inhibitory neurotransmitter that promotes sleepiness and suppresses arousal. Caffeine mimics the structure of adenosine and binds to its receptors, thereby blocking its effects and increasing wakefulness. The script discusses adenosine in the context of why caffeine can be effective in the morning and whether it should be consumed immediately upon waking or later.

💡Exercise Performance

Exercise performance refers to the efficiency and effectiveness of an individual's physical activity, such as running, cycling, or weightlifting. The script highlights that caffeine is a potent supplement for enhancing exercise performance across various activities. It mentions that caffeine can improve muscle strength, power, and endurance, making it beneficial for both short and long-duration exercises.

💡Cortisol

Cortisol is a hormone that plays a role in the body's response to stress and is naturally elevated in the morning. The script discusses the idea that caffeine might interfere with the natural peak of cortisol, suggesting that waiting to consume caffeine until after this peak could be beneficial. However, the speaker notes that there is no strong evidence to support this theory.

💡Caffeine Tolerance

Caffeine tolerance refers to the reduced response to caffeine over time due to regular consumption. The script mentions that habitual caffeine users might experience a decrease in the stimulatory effects of caffeine, potentially due to an upregulation of adenosine receptors in the brain. This concept is relevant to discussions about the effectiveness of caffeine for exercise performance and the need for higher doses in chronic users.

💡Caffeine Metabolism

Caffeine metabolism is the process by which the body breaks down and eliminates caffeine. The script suggests that there may be genetic variations in how quickly individuals metabolize caffeine, which could affect how they respond to caffeine. However, it also notes that the link between caffeine metabolism and exercise performance is not strongly established.

💡Caffeine Dosage

Caffeine dosage refers to the amount of caffeine consumed, typically measured in milligrams. The script discusses optimal dosages for enhancing exercise performance, suggesting that 3 to 6 milligrams per kilogram of body mass can be effective. It also warns against exceeding safe limits, which can lead to negative side effects such as increased heart rate and anxiety.

💡Caffeine Half-Life

The half-life of caffeine is the time it takes for the concentration of caffeine in the body to decrease by half. The script mentions that caffeine has a relatively long half-life, which means its effects can last for several hours after consumption. This is relevant to discussions about the timing of caffeine intake before exercise and its potential impact on sleep.

💡Caffeine Side Effects

Caffeine side effects include a range of physiological and psychological responses that can occur with excessive caffeine consumption. The script highlights potential side effects such as increased heart rate, anxiety, and sleep disturbances. It emphasizes the importance of consuming caffeine within safe limits to avoid these negative impacts.

💡Coffee Brewing

Coffee brewing refers to the process of making coffee by extracting flavors and caffeine from coffee beans using various methods such as drip, percolator, or espresso machines. The script discusses how different brewing methods can affect the caffeine content in the final drink, which can be significant for those using coffee for its caffeine content and potential health benefits.

💡Health Outcomes

Health outcomes refer to the effects of a particular intervention or exposure on an individual's health. The script suggests that moderate coffee and caffeine consumption can have beneficial health outcomes, such as improved cardiovascular health, liver protection, and antioxidant effects. It contrasts these benefits with the potential negative effects of excessive caffeine intake.

Highlights

Caffeine is a highly effective supplement for enhancing exercise performance.

Coffee and tea are the most consumed beverages worldwide, after water.

There is a lot of misinformation about caffeine's impact on health; the data generally suggests positive health outcomes from moderate coffee consumption.

Caffeine works by blocking adenosine receptors, increasing arousal and wakefulness.

The timing of caffeine consumption in the morning may not affect its effectiveness as much as believed.

Caffeine may cause an increase in circulating adenosine levels, potentially leading to a post-caffeine crash.

Habitual caffeine consumers may develop tolerance, requiring more caffeine to achieve the same effects.

Caffeine can improve mood and reduce the perception of effort during exercise.

The ideal dose of caffeine for performance enhancement is between three to six milligrams per kilogram of body mass.

Caffeine's effects can last for several hours, even after six hours post-ingestion.

High doses of caffeine can lead to negative side effects such as increased heart rate, anxiety, and digestive issues.

Caffeine metabolism can vary between individuals, but it doesn't strongly correlate with perceived effects.

Some people may feel sleepier after caffeine due to habitual consumption and reduced physiological response.

Caffeine can have long-term health benefits, including potential protection for the liver and cardiovascular system.

The ritual of coffee drinking, including its sensory experience, may contribute to cognitive and performance benefits beyond caffeine alone.

There is significant variation in caffeine content between different coffee preparation methods and even between pods from the same brand.

Caffeine's impact on sleep is significant, regardless of an individual's perception of its effects.

Avoiding caffeine intake approximately nine hours before sleep can help minimize its negative effects on sleep.

The concept of a 'coffee nap' may have some merit, but more scientific research is needed to confirm its effectiveness.

Transcripts

this is everything you need to know

about caffeine is it really true you

shouldn't drink coffee first thing in

the morning is there an ideal time to

stop drinking coffee I think everybody

knows that kind of person who takes has

a cup of coffee before bed and

supposedly sleeps great caffeine's

having a negative impact on your sleep

regardless of whether or not you think

it is or not and is your coffee habit

hurting your health in the long term if

you enjoy coffee just go and enjoy

coffee and the data in general suggests

that actually caffeine or coffee CA

consumption overall is very beneficial

for a number of different Health

outcomes Dr Brian Saunders is a caffeine

expert armed with the latest research

and Science and his lab specializes in

caffeine's role in enhancing exercise

performance caffeine is a pretty

effective supplement if not the most

effective supplement for enhancing

exercise performance that's out there

you can improve muscle strength muscle

power muscle endurance so you can lift

heavier loads and you can do more

repetitions of that there's a lot of

coffee fear and misinformation out there

so today we're clearing that up is there

evidence for this not really any that I

know of I'm Dr Curran an NHS surgeon and

this podcast we cut through the BS of

Modern Health advice and tackle the

biggest issues in science health and

Medicine both coffee and tea are

estimated to be the most consumed drinks

worldwide second only to water but

caffeine consumption is massively

polarizing some some people celebrate

its health benefits others demonize it

and blame it for all sorts of poor

health outcomes so if you're someone

that feels guilty about your morning

coffee habit or you're stressing about

what time to drink your morning cuper

you're hearing that you should have

periods without caffeine or you're

wondering whether you need to stop

completely this one's for you Dr Brian

Saunders from the University of sa Paulo

is here to tell us the truth behind the

online claims and what the scientific

research actually says I've heard a lot

a couple of years back about this whole

thing about if you're consuming caffeine

or coffee or any beverage which contains

caffeine you shouldn't have it first

thing in the morning because you're not

getting you know the full bang for your

buck because your cortisol is already

elevated and caffeine is going to

elevate your cortisol even more and

actually it's better if you take it an

hour and a half after you wake up when

it can boost you even more when your

cortisol slightly dips which sort of

mechanistically I thought it made sense

but recently there's more research which

came out suggesting that not even a

thing it doesn't really matter when you

take your coffee or that potentially

caffeine acts on your desing system

which it does and another reason why you

shouldn't consume in the morning is

there any truth behind morning timing of

caffeine at all yeah it's uh it's it's

become quite big hasn't it this one uh a

lot of people sort of in my day-to-day

have come up to me and asked about this

and you see a lot of promotion about

online as you kind of briefly mentioned

I think sort of the one thing to to take

a step back is thinking about you know

how does caffeine actually work so as

you mentioned caffeine Works has a

structure similar to adenosine in our

body um and adenosine Rises um

throughout the day and has an

important uh role in the sleep wake

cycle So within our brain it actually is

quite inhibitory so it kind of promotes

sleepiness suppresses arousal so if we

block adenosine from doing that role we

then can increase arousal increase

wakefulness and alertness so essentially

that's uh what what caffeine can do in

the body so when it comes down to should

I drink caffeine should I drink my

coffee which contains caffeine first

thing in the morning I've heard a few

slightly different versions of why we

supposedly should avoid this which you

touched upon so essentially when we wake

our circulating adenosine levels should

be the lowest that they will be that day

because during sleep adenosine uh is

gradually cleared from from the brain

but you know if we have a poor night's

sleep we don't get enough sleep these

levels might be higher than um desirable

and so to block this most people will

then take caffeine you know thinking

okay that this will properly start my

day properly wake my day but the

argument I've seen then is that this

adenosine that's in your body then still

kind of hangs around and several hours

later when the caffeine levels in our

system start to drop then the adenosine

that's hung around essentially can go

back to doing its job and we get um an

afternoon crash again kind of supposedly

and so the theory is apparently to avoid

this we should wait for our cortisol

levels to Peak naturally so that

cortisol can have some role in this

clearance of that residual adeny

caffeine stimulates cortisol levels and

apparently the morning increase in

cortisol levels due to caffeine

ingestion is sort of

undesirable because then apparently it

doesn't allow cortisol to do its job so

that's why people say wait 90 minutes to

120 minutes before consuming caffeine it

means that cortisol Peaks naturally can

do its job clearing out adenosine and

you feel naturally alert and then

afterwards you can kind of bump that up

with caffeine so I guess the question

like going back to the actual question

you asked is sort of is there evidence

for

this not really any that I know

um I can't find any evidence even to

kind of suggest that cortisol plays a

role in adenosine clearance so I don't

know why increasing this morning Peak

would interfere with cortisol performing

that role if it did that role anyway you

know it might be relevant adenosine

levels are low immediat as when we

immediately wake up so maybe caffeine

will have its least impact at that

moment but I would say there's certainly

no dat to to suggest that caffeine

interferes with this cortisol Peak and

how adenosine is processed and that this

all causes an an an afternoon crash so

the the evidence is weak or not even

there in my opinion so when you

suggested that caffeine has a similar

structure to adenosine and therefore can

bind to the adenosine receptors is

caffeine bound to the adenosine

receptors preferentially than adenosine

or are they both got the same Affinity

towards those receptor so my main

question here is can caffeine work

better to really get rid of that

sleepiness in the morning when adenosine

is still being cleared from the system

after that night's sleep as for the

specific Affinity I'm uh I'm not

entirely sure something to to check into

but what we do see um in in studies that

actually measure the amount of adenosine

or circulating adenosine is that when we

provide an individual with caffeine that

adenosine in the circulation then Rises

which suggests that it potentially even

removes that adenosine that's bound to

the receptor so it certainly um seems to

get in the way it is an an antagonist of

those receptors and potentially even um

displaces adenosine that is already um

connected so is that a possible

mechanism as to why people experience

such a profound crash and tiredness

after ingesting a lot of caffeine when

this caffeine bumps away the bound

adenosine to its receptors and

eventually once the caffeine wears off

you suddenly get a flurry of all of that

free adenosine now rebinding to their

receptors and suddenly causing a massive

surge in tiredness or Lethy yeah it's

it's it's certainly a potential um you

know some people have suggested that it

increases the sensitivity of these

receptors to the adenosine then that

then connect once um the caffeine sort

of uh is metabolized essentially but

again I I I think it's it's far more of

a personal thing um rather than this is

exactly what happens I don't think that

the scientific evidence is particularly

strong to suggest that um there's a

bigger crash because of this um but

certainly some people do seem to

subjectively feel this yeah is there any

for example there's some phenomenon when

some people become habituated to

drinking a certain amount of coffee and

progressively they need to increase the

amount of coffee they drink to get the

same effect what drives that is is there

something which the body physiologically

upregulates the amount of adenosine

receptors to compensate for this

caffeine blocking adenosine what what's

going on that Mak someone tolerant

towards caffeine a lot of people

subjectively do feel that that you know

the the more they drink caffeine the

less they get that sort of um buzz from

it and certainly in our lab when when we

get people who are caffeine naive into

the lab you know you can we we try to do

double blind studies where we don't know

and they don't know what they're taking

but sometimes you know it's caffeine

that they've taken that day because the

the the buzz the change in their um

Dynamic is is is clear to see but it

does seem to be um less when an IND

idual consumes caffeine whether it be

via coffee or teas um chronically so

it's difficult to say exactly what

happens in humans because we don't have

that data but when we look at uh Mouse

models which is a far easier model to

look at especially when considering we

want to look at what happens in the

brain and and and we can literally take

the brain out and and look what's going

on what we see is that in mice with

regular caffeine

consumption uh their brain brains

actually increase the number of

adenosine receptors as a kind of

compensatory mechanism so that could

diminish that kind of stimulatory effect

over time because essentially the same

amount of caffeine won't bind or you

know won't bind to as many receptors

they'll be more receptors free for the

adenosine to bind and then again that

adenosine to have its kind of depressive

inhibitory

effects I think a big caveat again would

be number one this is in mice uh number

two this is with caffeine doses kind of

100 times that we use in humans or you

know usually consuming a coffee or a tea

Etc so we don't really know if the same

is happening in humans but you know you

can extrapolate a little and suggest

that this this is maybe the mechanism

that's happening so in terms of people

drinking any sort of caffeine in the

morning or ingesting any sort of

caffeine in the morning is there a

significant Placo effect at play more

than just the caffeine having these

physiological effects which obviously it

does but is there also a huge uh role

for the placebo effect in making people

feel more alert and more energized I

think short answer yes uh I love this

kind of placebo stuff and and and our

lab has some on

studies uh looking at this topic maybe a

bit more specific to um the caffeine and

looking its influence on cognition and

performance and the mechanisms behind it

but I think um a lot of it overlaps so

there's there's more and more data

coming out suggesting that there's a

huge potential placebo effect of that

morning coffee and that might be linked

to um kind of the expectation of getting

that caffeine and that caffeine hit but

also so sort of that whole ritual behind

drinking your coffee your tea your your

drink of choice when we look at maybe

the expectation behind caffeine when

somebody believes that they're getting

caffeine but maybe they're actually just

getting a placebo we already see

increased arousal increased

expectation um there's in terms of sort

of my main area of of work we can see

that it can improve exercise performance

that's simply the expectation of or

believing that I've received caffeine

I'm going to get caffeine you can

already see changes in mood changes in

exercise performance but there was a

recent really interesting study um that

looked at taking caffeine as simply sort

of a a supplement so I believe diluted

in water versus caffeine in a coffee and

so what they did they used some sort of

complex measurement technique

of the brain called resting state

functional MRI so a highly complex

analysis of brain activity but in this

study so they made several measures of

brain activity before and shortly after

either consuming just caffeine so as a

kind of supplement or an actual coffee

and so they found that both caffeine and

coffee did cause some changes in brain

activity that were related to kind of um

a greater preparing ESS to switch from

resting to to working processes so it

suggests that the caffeine maybe made

people more ready for action um but some

changes in brain activity were only seen

when coffee was consumed and that like

there was increased sort of connectivity

in areas with um implicated in visual

processing uh higher level cognitive

functions such as working memory goal

directed Behavior so it seems coffee

produced a far more wide ranging effect

on cognitive activity which suggests

that actually the ritual of having a

coffee May trigger kind of brain areas

that's not only sort of due to the um

effects of caffeine but maybe due to you

know the stimulatory effects the the

sensory experience of having that coffee

maybe the smell the taste and

anticipation so really really

interesting data from uh from this study

do you think the added benefits of

consuming caffeine in the form of coffee

in addition to those ritualistic habits

and that conditioned Behavior it's also

maybe could be due to all the you know

the fermented beans the coffee beans the

antioxidants the polyphenols and the

sort of Prebiotic fibers from that

adding to all of those cognitive and

physical benefits yeah I I think um and

that's potentially a limitation of this

study to extrapolate that it's entirely

Placebo effects here you know I guess

what they probably needed was uh

decaffeinated coffee as another control

to be able to potentially eliminate

other compounds within coffee that maybe

generated these effects you know even if

it is these other compounds and maybe

not sort of only um Placebo effects that

are generating these these um changes in

brain activity you know it still does

suggest that yeah maybe having that cup

of coffee is more beneficial than

somebody who prefers just to take a

caffeine pill in the morning to to get

their Buzz yeah so if someone were using

some source of caffeine for boosting

their exercise

performance what benefits can someone

Achieve Beyond just increase alertness

and focus when they're consuming

caffeine to boost their exercise

performance whether they're a marathon

runner or just lifting weights in the

gym or cycling somewhere what can they

expect well in general I think they can

expect to probably improve their

exercise performance yeah um the general

consensus is certainly that caffeine um

is a pretty effective supplement

probably one of the if not the most

effective kind of uh supplement for

enhancing exercise performance that's

out there and that's you know you

mentioned there across a wide range of

exercise types that's that's the really

kind of fantastic and interesting thing

with caffeine you know you see from the

shortest duration activities you know

kind of um those explosive

high-intensity Sprints that maybe lasts

up to one minute you know 100 meter

running 200 meter running 50 m swimming

a a cycling Sprint at the end of a race

there's evidence that caffeine can

improve performance if you sort of

prolong that exercise duration a bit

more um you know a middle duration

Activity 4 kilometer cycling that might

last anywhere from 4 to 8 minutes if you

know depending on Elite to a

recreational 2,000 meter rowing sort of

six to nine minutes um maybe longer

endurance activities 10 kilm 16 40 kilm

cycling time trial performance cross

country swimming skiing sorry Marathon

running as you said there's data to show

that caffeine can improve this kind of

activity um you've got resistance

exercise so you know when you when you

get in the gym and you're performing

contractions of of isolated or multiple

muscle groups um there's evidence to

show that you can improve uh muscle

strength muscle power muscle endurance

so you can lift heavier loads and you

can do more repetitions of that and then

even kind of team sports which is a

whole mix of you know agility repeated

Sprints and changes of direction there's

so much evidence to show that caffeine

can also improve various aspects of

performance during this kind of activity

so if you look at the entirety of the

data you know there's probably 300 400

uh studies out there in general the

average shows a pretty pretty decent

performance enhancing potential of Cafe

you know I think some people might think

that they you know a recreational Runner

I'll take some caffeine and now all of a

sudden I might be S of chasing down

Usain Bolt during that 100 meter it's

not a miracle worker you know the

effects that we see in these studies are

generally kind of small to moderate okay

it doesn't mean it doesn't matter um

especially if you're a competitive

athlete but I think um it's certainly a

caveat that I always like to mention to

people yeah the these are small to

moderate performance improvements it's

not a miracle worker yeah I guess it's

going to optimize you as much as your

threshold allows given your current

physical limitation so if you're already

an ultr level athlete it's going to give

you the extra 1 two% if you're you know

a casual Runner it will give you an

extra 1 to two% but won't make you a

professional uh and really what I wanted

to query was how exactly does it exert

these benefits what's the mechanism

underpinning these exercising boosting

abilities of caffeine is it increase

blood flow is it enhance recovery

increased uh you know glucose usage by

muscles what's going on it's effects on

mood and on um uh arousal

motivation is part of its influence for

sure so as as we've already mentioned by

uh interfering with adenosine receptors

it can enhance mood and all these um

factors but then essentially um what we

see is an increase in in a in a lot of

um hormones that can lead to direct

benefits on the muscle so um we see an

increased in increas in uh adrenaline

noradrenaline you know that kind of

fight or flight

response um that kind of leads leads to

hyperarousal and you see an increase in

circulating glucose cardiac output blood

flow to the working muscles as you

mentioned um so that's definitely sort

of one method by which it works there's

also a large literature that we see that

um caffeine can decrease the perception

of effort during exercise so it feels

easy easier so that same say pace might

feel easier or you could kind of flip

that and you could run faster for the

same kind of perception of effort and

that's likely also due to the fact that

there's adenosine receptors present in

um nerve endings that are involved in

pain signal transduction wow so if you

antagonize these receptors you could

potentially reduce the signal of pain

reducing that perception of pain and

effort during exercise which I think is

an important stimulus to how hard and

how how much effort an individual um is

putting in and then there's also some

some suggestion um that there are Direct

effects on muscle that it can increase

kind of the the sensitivity of the

muscle to calcium release which is

really important for muscle contraction

there's a bit of debate about how much

caffeine is necessary for that but it

seems quite sort of all all-encompassing

of a variety of potential mechanisms

which is probably why caffeine Works

kind of across the board for so many

different exercise types so if someone

was an average caffeine consumer what

sort of dose of caffeine would provide

these increased benefits the literature

suggests caffeine relative to your body

mass so um most research out there has

probably used um doses between three and

six milligrams per kilogram of body mass

now I always like to highlight to people

it's milligrams and not grams you know

there's there's there's been some

horrendous mistakes made um so for say

70 kilo individual that's about 210

milligrams of caffeine wow and that that

already seems to be um performance

enhancing it is a lot it is a lot it's

you know depending on the source of

coffee or where you get it from it's

it's two to three espressos essentially

wow so you know given that the kind of I

guess safe limit in a day for a human is

roughly around 400 Mig maybe so you know

getting 200 Mig upwards is good going

for you know exercise boosting potential

for caffeine oh yeah oh yeah and and

again if if you look at those

recommendations they are quite wide if

you think about it for like from

doubling from 3 to six milligram so I

would always recommend as maybe a

starting point go for that lower end and

kind of see if it works for you see how

you react see if you know if you're

actually measuring your performance if

it's boosted your performance lower than

3 milligrams per kilo of body mass has

been shown to be effective so you could

even go towards the lower end um maybe

less of an effect um but certainly to go

above 6 milligrams per kilo you then

entering potentially trickier water

potentially some side effects and the

general data doesn't suggest that it's

more beneficial and actually might not

be um beneficial so i' kind of stick to

the lower end of of those ranges I just

provided is there an ideal time to

ingest caffeine so it peaks in your

bloodstream before the workout say 30

minutes 60 Minutes 90 minutes before you

work out to consume a certain dosage

there's no good data to suggest we need

to reach our Peak or that Peak caffeine

in the blood equals Peak performance um

but obviously you know it does take

about you know depending on the

ingestion type maybe sort of 30 to 60

Minutes for it to really enter the

bloodstream and start taking effect so

yeah if if you're you know going for a

short workout I I would say you know

maybe an hour before your workout um

ingest caffeine if you're going to be if

you're doing longer workouts I mean the

wash out the halflife of caffeine the

time it takes to be metabolized and

excreted is long so if you're if you're

taking say that 3 milligrams per

kilogram dose in 5 hours you're still

going to have about half of what that

peak in your blood was so in general I

think timing isn't too much of an issue

but again if your workout is short you

know if you're only going to do half an

hour one hour maybe then make sure that

you're taking the caffeine one hour

before that but those effects are then

going to last for for for a few hours

and I think there's one study that shows

even sort of six hours after ingestion

caffeine is still having uh performance

enhancing effects yeah so assuming

someone blow past the 400 mgram ceiling

that's safy consumed for a human in a

24-hour period you know presumably you

know you're going to have those really

emphasized effects of caffeine that

would have been okay at a physiological

safe dose of increased blood pressure

increased heart rate which is all

exercise boosting but they start to

become negative influencers and you may

get anxiety increased sweating um

palpitations maybe some GI side effects

some you know diarrhea or you know tummy

upsets what other quite dangerous side

effects can you come if you're really

pushing that you know safe 24-hour

dosage I think you've you've kind of hit

the nail on the head there those are

those are all potential side effects

when we we increase the the dose of

caffeine um aside from

Simply potentially toxic doses now again

in general we we we we're not going to

hit those toxic uh um doses with say a

cup of coffee or or even like a one

little capsule of caffeine but um

sometimes there's there's there's

caffeine and say pre-workout supplements

that people um ingest and and they don't

think about the amount of caffeine

that's in there they're looking to

increase I don't know the amount of

carbohydrate or creatin and so they

increase that dose accidentally

increasing the amount of caffeine um

which then could lead to really quite

High toxic doses of of caffeine which at

the really high end could could lead to

death and unfortunately there are kind

of case reports of this in the

literature it is rare and it is um

really a lot a lot of caffeine you know

that you would have to ingest sort of in

into the grams into the several you know

10 to 20 kind of grams of of of caffeine

but again even going above six

milligrams per per kilo you can increase

you know potential GI discomfort you can

increase anxiety anxiety is a big one

you know if if you're a person who

already potentially suffers from anxiety

is more prone to panic panic attacks you

know increasing again we've said it kind

of uh caffeine can increase uh

adrenaline noradrenaline so that

increases heart rate blood pressure

symptoms that are similar to uh anxiety

and so that can exacerbate that anxiety

you're increasing cortisol the stress

hormone so that can heighten feelings of

stress and anxiety and so that could

potentially negate any potential

benefits um of taking that caffeine so

we certainly have to look to limit um

look to take the minimal beneficial dose

in my opinion sometimes you know more is

is generally not better go stick towards

that lower end and and and see what

happens I think a lot of people fail to

appreciate that end of the day you know

caffeine is a potent drug whether we

like that word or not it is a drug and a

lot of these leading energy drinks in

the market a full can may contain upward

of 150 160 milligram of caffeine and I

know several people who chug through

three or four of those a day so they're

regularly consuming more than the safe

dose and not even really thinking about

it and then you wonder you know they're

feeling stressed probably because of

that you know heightened phal flight

response and the cortisol and the

adrenaline and all those effects of

caffeine which is consistently going

Beyond you know a safe metabolic dose

people don't realize the like the true

potential it's always that kind of with

like with many things that kind of

inverted you you know of course in in

small little doses it can be great it

can be fantastic I I I love my cup of

coffee in the morning I love a cup of

tea in the afternoon um I I I enjoy a

bit of caffeine sometimes pre-workout

but once you start to sort of overdo it

hit the excess that's when it can become

too much can become um

deleterious and then it's it's no longer

positive it's negative and it can cause

all kinds of negative impacts really so

the stereotypical view of caffeine is

that you take it and you feel alert and

you feel focused but paradoxically there

are a lot of people who take caffeine or

any sort of coffee or anything like that

and they actually feel more tired and

this always struck me as quite strange

and I suspected maybe they are you know

genetically faster metabolizers of

caffeine and they just you know Chow

through it their liver enzymes just Chow

through the caffeine a lot quicker but

apart from genetic variances in the

liver enzymes metabolizing caffeine and

reducing the halflife of it is there any

other mechanism as to why some people

might paradoxically feel sleepy or tired

of after consuming caffeine well I think

the caffeine metab metabolism stuff is

quite interesting because although yes

we have people who are faster

metabolizers and slower

metabolizers the extent to which this

actually modifies kind of perception of

of mood perception of arousal doesn't

seem to link to that genetic makeup so

um in collaboration with some colleagues

uh at the University of Brazilia we

actually looked at you know does an

individual's genotype for caffeine

metabolism um link to how they in

general respond to caffeine a

questionnaire based um assessment of you

know how they whether they get the

Jitters whether they feel anxious

whether they feel um an upward liftting

mood Etc and there doesn't actually seem

to be that strong a link between um

caffeine metabolism or or or and and

genetics and how an IND an individual

actually perceives or feels following

ingestion and um just on a side note as

well I think the data in terms of kind

of caffeine metabolism and exercise

performance following

caffeine it's a tenuous Link at best at

the minutes so I think we need certainly

more more data on the topic but I

wouldn't say that there's strong

evidence to suggest that caffeine

metabolism matters all that much I I

think I might be proven wrong at the

lower doses but I think sometimes when

you know like I said a 3 milligram per

kilo dose is already so much that we're

probably already

saturating um most things and so

metabolism of caffeine doesn't actually

make um that much of a difference as to

what's going on when um somebody takes

caffeine and actually um feels sleepier

personally um I haven't sort of

encountered too many of these

individuals I've certainly encountered

individuals who don't perceive an effect

they they they take caffeine and uh they

don't actually feel the effects and I

would say that's probably more to do

with them likely being a habitual

consumer so what we do see um with

habitual consumption is that those phys

ological effects again likely or

potentially due to an upregulation of

the adenosine receptors in the brain um

the physiological effects are reduced so

um with with um kind of

lowlevel lowish level habitual

consumption maybe up to about 200

milligrams per day we can see a a

blunting in the cortisol response um

whereas sort of really higher end um

habitual consumption kind of maybe above

that 400 milligrams per day um

recommendation that may even abolish

that cortisol response after caffeine

ingestion similarly kind of adrenaline

or adrenaline response can be blunted in

in chronic caffeine users so in those

individuals I think that would probably

explain why they don't feel as much Buzz

as um as other people so those people

who are habitual caffeine consumer

humors and maybe they've experienced

some blunted physiological response

objectively and maybe even subjectively

to themselves they perceive that same

dose of caffeine to have less of an

effect is there any value in those

people still consuming their same dose

of caffeine to get any benefits will

they get any benefits or should they

undertake a period of I don't know

caffeine fasting to almost reset their

tolerance our lab has been studying this

and so a few years ago we we we came out

with some research where we we got

people with different levels of Habitual

caffeine consumption you know ranging

from pretty caffeine naive all the way

up to you know in excess of the 400

milligrams per day and we showed that

caffeine provided acutely before

exercise improved their exercise

performance regardless of there was no

association you know there wasn't a

blunting in those individuals with

higher use there wasn't a greater effect

in in those with um lower use so our

data and and we have more data coming

out um suggests that maybe your habitual

caffeine intake doesn't matter that much

in terms of EX benefits for exercise

performance but you know science is

science and you you can find so many

studies showing the opposite and so

pretty much at the same time as we we

our study came out another study did

suggest a blunting in the effect so this

study was was controlled in a different

way they they got caffeine naive

individuals so with very low caffeine

consumption they provided caffeine prior

to exercise and showed it improved

performance but then half the group went

away and took caffeine every day for for

a month so then when they came back they

were now kind of Habitual or chronic

caffeine users and then when they were

tested again that caffeine prior to

exercise was less efficient it didn't

eliminate the performance benefits of

caffeine but it was reduced and so you

know that suggests that maybe caffeine

um chronic caffeine consumption

does uh inhibit a little bit um its

effects the key difference is maybe in

the dose provided before exercise so in

the other group study they provided 3

Mig per kilogram of body mass daily and

then provided the same amount pre

exercise whereas the amount we gave to

our participants was on the whole

greater than their daily dose um so it

was 6 milligrams per kilo that we

provided so maybe the key is if you're

an individual who you know drinks say

approximately three milligrams of of per

kilo um of caffeine per day then maybe

prior to exercise you need a a bit more

than that to then truly get the benefits

now that's a little bit extrapolating

the data we're actually testing that

right now in our lab so hopefully um

that'll come out in the next few months

but um you know I think I think there is

some logic to it I guess if you look at

the literature you'll see different

numbers quoted for the halflife of

caffeine and I guess that will also vary

depending on the individual as well I

guess maybe anything from 5 hours to 8

hours or anything in between and

although caffeine has various

physiological benefits it also has that

negative effect on sleep and its

interaction being an antagonist of the

adenosine system as well which helps us

to sleep is there any way or sort of any

way to clear caffeine faster if you'd

consumed a large amount in the few hours

leading up to your bedtime and you

didn't want it to affect your sleep in

the way that it mechanistically does so

we've actually been looking trying to

look into this to see if there is say a

caffeine

antagonist but from our

searches um I don't believe there is one

so the unfortunate thing for those who

do want to take caffeine later in the

day or have taken more than they want

and are having trouble sleeping is that

in general

you're not you're just going to have to

wait for for lady time to do its job but

you know that I think the easiest way to

avoid that is to just limit your

afternoon intake of caffeine and kind of

see what works with you I think an

important point when it comes to sleep

there's a really nice study showing

differences in what we objectively

perceive or how we objectively perceive

caffeine to influence our sleep versus

what it objectively does so in this

study they provided caffeine sort of 63

and immediately before bedtime versus

not providing

caffeine and when you ask somebody to

objectively quantify sort of um how

quickly they fell asleep how much they

slept um uh Total Sleep Time generally

they underestimate

the effects or the negative effects that

caffeine has had on their sleep so

generally they underestimate or

overestimate their Total Sleep time they

overestimate the percentage time they're

actually asleep so caffeine's having a

negative impact on your sleep kind of

regardless of whether or not you think

it is or not you know I think everybody

knows that kind of person who takes has

a cup of coffee before bed and

supposedly sleeps great I'm one of those

but after reading this study I thought

well this this actually suggests that

despite my perception it might not be

the the true case there was a

metaanalysis that came out last year

kind of pooling so many different

studies that um suggests that if we want

to limit caffeine's effects on our sleep

we should look to avoid um consuming

kind of coffee about nine hours from

about nine hours prior to sleep and at

bigger doses so those kind of preworkout

doses is the data suggest that we want

to limit that to 13 hours before bed so

you know if you're going to bed at 10

that's kind of limiting it to 9:00 a.m.

in the morning so wow not that people

are necessarily going to do this but

just people should be aware that it can

interfere with your sleep and so you

know the more you take the more you take

in the afternoon the more it can

negatively impact upon your sleep how

much value can you place on these I

guess these trending things on social

media where people talk about having a

coffee nap where they consume some

coffee then have a nap almost before the

coffee really hits their system and then

as they wake up from their 45 60 Minute

power nap the coffee then hits and

they're now less groggy after their nap

but they've also got the added benefit

of the caffeine and the coffee peeking

and they feel good is it any scientific

underpinning as to Coffee naps if you

can immediately fall asleep following

that coffee um then and and have that

you know generally your nap should kind

of be I think around 20 minutes half an

hour max then you would wake up at the

moment that caffeine is kind of really

starting to rise and and and having an

effect I think it's one of those

that mechanistically

logistically it seems to make sense but

until we actually test it in my opinion

it's all just kind of hearsay and you

know it's it it's all about like your

first sort of uh question about you know

should we take it immediately upon

waking or 90 minutes to 120 Minutes

there might sometimes be some rationale

for doing this but until we actually

measure it properly in the lab if some

somebody goes out and does it then it's

all just

anecdotal but it doesn't mean to say

that if it works for you then great then

you know I I sometimes think that with

science sometimes we are too quick to

dismiss a person's personal

feelings but you know it is important

that we say oh here is the data on

average this is the

direction but of course there can be

some deviations from that direction

depending on

individuals yeah I guess you know

anecdotal data is still data and if you

get a series of anecdotal data points it

becomes a case Series so yeah guess it's

not straightforward just to wipe that

off and disregard it but what was

interesting is that previously you

mentioned that uh caffeine consumption

can sensitize the adenine receptors to

be you know more sensitive towards the

effects of adenosine and potentially

there may be some upper regulation of

the adenosine receptors as well is there

any long-term effect on the adenine

receptors when you habitually consume

caffeine in the very long term to the

point where it actually could cause

these longer term physiological changes

again I don't think we we have that data

I don't think we we we know what it does

especially in humans because it's pretty

difficult to take a brain biopsy so I I

don't think anybody's going to be

volunteering for that anytime soon again

all you can do is look at um what kind

of um long-term data suggests when we

look at Snippets of you know people's

long-term use so you know you can

evaluate that via questionnaire and then

look at their General Health and I think

in general the data do suggest that

caffeine or coffeine consumption overall

is very beneficial for a number of

different Health outcomes we look at oh

there might be a m a reduction in

exercise performance with habitual

consumption so we we we should really

sort of remove remove it from the diet

to avoid this but it's such a minor

thing when in the long term if you enjoy

coffee just go and enjoy coffee and the

data in general suggests that actually

caffeine consumption and coffee intake

in those you know reasonable doses again

as you mentioned before 400 milligrams

per day is kind of set as as as the

upper limit or

thereabouts then you're you're you're

likely to gain long-term benefits and

and you're not likely to get any um

unfavorable um issues in my opinion yeah

I think that some of the study I read

suggested up to three cups of coffee a

day could actually you know provide some

significant benefits for gut health

cardiovascular health even some liver

protection and the antioxidant effect of

um you know the chlorogenic acid and

various things in uh coffee and coffee

beans I mean Brazil and South America in

general has some pretty great coffee is

there any

thing you'd recommend in terms of the

preparation of coffee or the Brewing or

the even types of beans and locations

and how they're harvested that has any

effect as to really maximizing the

caffeine dosage and how great it is for

absorption depending on where it's

soured how it's soured and how it's made

yes so obviously there are there are you

know plenty of different kinds of or or

or sources of um caffeine um obviously

coffee beans is is one of the most

well-known but then you know you've got

cacao beans uh you've got Cola nuts from

Africa tea leaves obviously um at a

generally at a lower amount yba mate the

Guan Berry here in in Brazil which I

believe can actually kind of in general

per um Bean contains more caffeine than

a than a coffee bean so you know the

different types of beans the different

locations or where they're

grown probably even one coffee bean to

the next Coffee Bean right next to it

the amount of caffeine in there will

likely differ and then you know you've

got to factor in um the processing you

know Brazil I agree has some fantastic

coffee but it also has some pretty

abysmal coffee in my opinion I've been

to um a really nice uh coffee Farm here

where you know they fully explain the

process and you know the most popular

but most popular maybe because they're

quite cheap brands or or or or coffees

out there are generally the less good

beans that have kind of been filtered

away and also contain a bit of dirt and

a bit of stuff that you wouldn't

necessarily want in there and so they

over roast them to make it a bit more

flavorsome but you know you can kind of

see it in the color it's kind of more

black color whereas coffee shouldn't

really be that really dark black color

it should be a more light muddy Brown

and so that will already change or or

likely change the caffeine content how

much we don't really know but we do know

that you know processing preparation if

you do have a drip coffee if you use a

percolator if you have you know a

pressure espresso this can all influence

how much caffeine is actually in

uh your coffee but even you know trying

to standardize that will still lead to

different caffeine content so there's

some really nice studies showing that

again the different preparation types

lead to a different amount of caffeine

using the same kind of pack of coffee um

if you go to a coffee shop you might

think oh that might be more standardized

but no there's a there's really nice

data showing that the same coffee from

the same popular brand

coffee shop um on consecutive days the

actual caffeine content ranged kind of

between 250 and 550 milligrams within

that one coffee like obviously big big

coffee espresso pods there's a really

nice study from Ben des's group in um

Australia where you know you might think

that they'll probably be able to

standardize better the amount of

caffeine in each of these

pods but no they actually vary quite

wildly from one pod to the next and

don't exactly match up with What's um

actually written on the

label it's something I always mention to

people who want to use caffeine for

exercise

performance can you use caffeine in

coffee to improve performance of course

you can there's some nice studies that

show that but you don't know exactly how

much caffeine you're getting that's the

issue so if you're somebody who only

wants a little but on that one day you

get a huge impact you know you get that

550 milligrams that might not be

beneficial to you or or or it might be

that you get the wheat coffee today and

there's less caffeine so if you want to

know exactly how much caffeine you're

getting then you know maybe a supplement

um is is the better option for you for

your for your workout I think I heard I

hope this is correct but it's the second

most consumed drink in the world after

water and I think given that it's

certainly very widely consumed by a lot

of people you know millions billions of

people around the world most people

don't really appreciate the nuance and

the level of complexity as to what's

going on in their systems consuming this

quite potent drug so thank you very much

Brian for adding all of this nuance and

science to the world of coffee which is

you know incredibly important to

people's everyday lives thanks again to

Dr Brian Saunders next episode we meet

exercise scientist Dr Mike isrel who

tells us just how little you can work

out and still reap the benefits the most

effective way to lose weight and why

supplementing with creatine isn't just

for bodybuilders and much more subscribe

so you don't miss it and the weekly Dr K

explores podcast and I'll see you

curious croutons next week