Project 2025: The Guardian Reports | FFRF’s Ask An Atheist
Summary
TLDRIn this episode of 'Ask an Atheist' by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, the panel discusses the radical implications of 'Project 2025,' a document from the Heritage Foundation that aims to reshape American policy. The conversation covers potential impacts on civil service, education, LGBTQ+ rights, reproductive freedoms, and immigration. Concerns are raised about the document's authoritarian leanings and its threat to the separation of church and state. The show also features insights from David Smith, the Washington bureau chief for The Guardian, before technical difficulties cut the interview short.
Takeaways
- 📜 The transcript discusses 'Project 2025', a plan by the Heritage Foundation that aims to reshape America with a conservative ideology.
- 🏆 The Heritage Foundation's plan is seen as a potential threat to democracy by some, including Representative Jared Huffman, who founded the 'Stop Project 2025 TR task force'.
- 🔍 The plan is extensive, covering a wide range of topics from education, LGBTQ+ rights, reproductive rights, racial justice, to immigration policies.
- 🗣️ The discussion involves concerns about the potential authoritarian shift if Project 2025's recommendations are implemented, centralizing power in the presidency.
- 👥 The show 'Ask an Atheist' features a conversation with David Smith, the Washington bureau chief for The Guardian, who has been tracking Project 2025.
- 🌐 The international implications of Project 2025 are hinted at but not fully explored due to technical difficulties with the guest, indicating a broader impact beyond U.S. borders.
- 🛑 There is an ongoing debate about the legality and constitutionality of Project 2025, especially concerning the separation of church and state.
- 📉 Project 2025 has faced criticism and some groups, like the Discovery Institute, have distanced themselves from it, suggesting internal divisions within conservative circles.
- 🤔 The conversation raises questions about the potential for violence among supporters of Project 2025, echoing concerns post-January 6th Capitol insurrection.
- 📊 The audience is asked to rate the potential impact of Project 2025 on a scale of 1 to 10, indicating widespread concern about its influence on the upcoming elections.
- 💡 The importance of education, organizing, and political engagement is emphasized as a countermeasure against the implementation of Project 2025's proposals.
Q & A
What is the main concern with Project 2025 as discussed in the transcript?
-Project 2025 is a comprehensive plan from the Heritage Foundation that aims to reshape America with a conservative ideology. It is a concern because it could lead to a centralization of power in the presidency, potential dismissal of thousands of federal employees, and the replacement of these positions with politically vetted individuals, potentially leading to an authoritarian presidency.
What is the role of the Heritage Foundation in Project 2025?
-The Heritage Foundation is the think tank behind Project 2025. It has developed a detailed plan that includes radical policy proposals aimed at reshaping the American government and society according to a conservative Christian nationalist vision.
How is Project 2025 related to the separation of church and state?
-Project 2025 is seen as a threat to the separation of church and state due to its promotion of policies that favor Christian values over others, potentially leading to religious exemptions in various facets of American life, thus eroding the principle of state-church separation.
What impact could Project 2025 have on public education?
-Project 2025 calls for the abolition of the Department of Education, which could have a significant impact on public schools, potentially leading to a lack of federal oversight and support for education policies.
How does Project 2025 address LGBTQ+ rights?
-Project 2025 is not sympathetic to LGBTQ+ rights and includes measures that could roll back the rights of this community, reflecting a conservative Christian ideology that does not support LGBTQ+ lifestyles or rights.
What are the implications of Project 2025 for reproductive freedom?
-Project 2025 could further restrict reproductive freedom, particularly abortion rights, following the overturning of Roe v. Wade, potentially impacting millions of women who may lose access to safe and legal abortion services.
How does Project 2025 plan to address immigration?
-Project 2025 includes strict immigration policies that echo those of former President Trump, such as deporting undocumented immigrants, which could affect millions of people and significantly alter the demographic and social fabric of the United States.
What is the significance of the 'Schedule F' mentioned in the transcript?
-Schedule F is a proposal within Project 2025 that would allow the president to hire and fire civil servants at will, potentially leading to the politicization of the civil service and undermining its independence and nonpartisanship.
What is the role of the 'Stop Project 2025 TR Task Force' founded by Jared Huffman?
-The 'Stop Project 2025 TR Task Force' is a congressional body aimed at countering the proposals of Project 2025. It is intended to raise awareness about the potential negative impacts of Project 2025 and to work towards preventing its implementation.
How does the transcript suggest that Project 2025 could impact climate activities?
-The transcript implies that Project 2025 includes proposals to defund climate activities, which could have both short-term and long-term impacts on the United States' ability to address climate change and could potentially exacerbate environmental issues.
What is the potential international view of Project 2025 as hinted in the transcript?
-While the transcript does not provide a detailed international perspective, it suggests that Project 2025 could lead to a more isolationist United States, impacting global relations, potentially reducing funding for international programs like USAID, and affecting the country's stance on religious freedom abroad.
Outlines
🔹 MSNBC Anchors' Reactions to Project 2025
The video script opens with a discussion on the perceived success of a conservative side, which is causing distress among MSNBC anchors. It introduces the 'American Revolution' concept and sets the stage for a discussion on 'Project 2025,' a plan by the Heritage Foundation. The speaker, Ryan Jane, introduces the show 'Ask an Atheist' and its co-hosts, including Mark Dan from the Freedom From Religion Foundation (ffrf), and guest David Smith from The Guardian. The conversation hints at the radical nature of Project 2025 and its potential to reshape America's political landscape.
📚 Project 2025: A Conservative Playbook
This paragraph delves into the specifics of Project 2025, a comprehensive plan from the Heritage Foundation aimed at centralizing power in the presidency and dismantling the administrative state. It discusses the potential impacts on federal employees, education, and the broader structure of American democracy. David Smith, the guest, elaborates on how the plan could fundamentally alter the government, including dismissing thousands of employees and replacing them with politically vetted individuals loyal to Donald Trump.
🏛️ The Threat to American Democracy and Daily Life
The discussion continues with the potential daily life implications of Project 2025, ranging from climate policy to LGBTQ rights and abortion rights. It mentions the plan's alignment with Trump's policies on immigration and the economy, suggesting increased inflation and other economic impacts. The paragraph also highlights the bipartisan nature of ffrf and its commitment to state-church separation, setting up a contrast with the Christian nationalist themes of Project 2025.
🌐 International Perspective on Project 2025
Although the main focus has been on domestic issues, this part of the script invites discussion on the international view of Project 2025. It suggests that the plan could affect U.S. foreign policy, potentially leading to an isolationist stance. The conversation is cut short due to technical difficulties with the guest, David, but it implies that there would be further exploration of how Project 2025 might impact global relations and the perception of the U.S. abroad.
🛡️ Congressional Response to Project 2025
The script outlines the response from Congress, particularly from Representative Jared Huffman and the 'Stop Project 2025 TR Task Force.' It discusses the efforts to raise awareness about the plan's potential impact and to counteract its influence. The paragraph also mentions the role of the Congressional Freethought Caucus and its early recognition of the threat posed by Project 2025.
🗳️ Political and Public Reaction to Project 2025
This section explores the reaction to Project 2025 from both the public and political figures. It highlights the polarizing nature of the plan and how it has captured the attention of various groups, including those distancing themselves from its extreme positions. The script also touches on the potential for rivalry among conservative groups and the impact of negative press on Project 2025.
🌟 The Role of the Heritage Foundation and Project 2025
The paragraph examines the role of the Heritage Foundation in promoting Project 2025 and the potential legal and political implications for the organization. It raises questions about the Foundation's nonpartisan status and its involvement in political activities, suggesting that there may be consequences for its actions. The discussion also considers the broader issue of extremist groups and the challenges of combating their influence.
🚨 Concerns of Escalation to Violence
The script addresses the potential for violence among supporters of Project 2025, referencing past political violence and the desire to avoid such outcomes. It emphasizes the importance of dialogue and the need to steer clear of extremism, while acknowledging the persistence of fringe elements that may be inclined towards violent action.
🛑 Legal Limitations and the First Amendment
This part of the script considers the legal limitations on the Heritage Foundation and its allies, particularly in relation to the First Amendment and the prohibition of establishing a state religion. It discusses the potential for extreme measures, such as criminalizing non-Christian worship, and the safeguards in place to prevent such violations of religious freedom.
📉 The Impact of Project 2025 on the 2024 Election
The final paragraph summarizes audience perceptions of the impact of Project 2025 on the upcoming election, with many viewers rating the potential impact as significant. The script concludes with a reflection on the importance of discussing such issues and the role of the Freedom From Religion Foundation in addressing them.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡MSNBC
💡American Revolution
💡Heritage Foundation
💡Project 2025
💡Christian Nationalism
💡Separation of Church and State
💡Stop Project 2025 TR Task Force
💡State-Church Separation
💡Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF)
💡Executive Order
💡Supreme Court
Highlights
MSNBC anchors' reactions to the perceived winning of the conservative side in the American political landscape.
Introduction of 'Project 2025', a comprehensive plan from the Heritage Foundation to reshape America's policies.
Discussion on the potential impact of 'Project 2025' on the federal government and democracy in the United States.
Interview with David Smith, Washington bureau chief at The Guardian, who has been closely tracking 'Project 2025'.
Concerns about the plan to centralize power in the presidency and the potential for authoritarian rule.
Potential dismissal of thousands of federal employees and their replacement with politically vetted individuals.
The plan's proposal to abolish the Department of Education and other significant policy changes.
The threat to LGBTQ+ rights, reproductive rights, and racial justice as outlined in 'Project 2025'.
The potential for increased inflation and economic impacts due to the plan's tough stance on China.
The role of the 'Stop Project 2025 TR Task Force' founded by California Representative Jared Huffman.
The Heritage Foundation's promotion of 'Project 2025' and its alignment with conservative ideologies.
The potential for 'Project 2025' to erode the separation of church and state through religious exemptions.
The possibility of legal battles between states and the federal government over the implementation of 'Project 2025'.
The role of the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) as a nonpartisan organization in addressing 'Project 2025'.
The audience's engagement through questions and the scale of impact 'Project 2025' might have on the election.
The potential for 'Project 2025' to influence public policy through a coalition of conservative groups.
The response to 'Project 2025' from the public and political figures, including the formation of opposition groups.
The importance of education and awareness in combating the influence of 'Project 2025'.
Strategies for preventing similar projects from emerging in the future, including political and legal approaches.
Transcripts
reason that so many anchors on MSNBC for
example are losing their minds daily is
because our side is winning and so I
come full circle in this response and
just want to encourage you with some
substance that we are in the process of
the American Revolution which will
remain bloodless if the left allows it
to
be hello and welcome to ffrf's ask an
atheist I'm Ryan Jane senior policy
council at the freedom from religion
Foundation today we're talking about the
threat project 2025 poses that alarming
clip you just saw was of Kevin Roberts
head of the Heritage Foundation which is
one of the major groups behind project
2025 a 900 plus page Chris nationalist
Playbook to reshape America we'll be
talking about the presidential
transition project with the Washington
bureau chief at the guardian who's been
tracking this story closely but first I
want to introduce my co-host today ffrf
director of governmental Affairs Mark
Dan coming to us from Washington DC hey
Mark hey Ryan great to be here with you
as always we want to hear your questions
so put your thoughts and questions in
the comments section or email to ask an
atheist at ffrf.org quick little note
ffrf is a 501c3 nonpartisan organization
so we do not and cannot take sides in
partisan elections and don't necessarily
endorse any such views that might be
expressed here today now our guest is
David Smith the Washington bureau chief
for the guardian from 2009 to 2015 David
was a correspondent for the guardian in
Johannesburg South Africa David has
written numerous articles on Project
2025 and the US elections you can find
David on Twitter Smith iname or at
theegg guardian.com welcome to the show
David thanks great to be
here and before we get into our
discussion with David we want to hear
from you with our audience question so
for today on a scale of 1 to 10 how much
of an impact do you think project 2025
will play in the election and why 10 is
a huge impact and one is no impact at
all so David uh let's talk a little bit
about your work and in your recent
article at the guardian you quoted
California representative Jared Huffman
who's the founder of the stop project
2025 TR task force and you call uh who
called project 2025 a potential wrecking
ball to the federal government can you
elaborate on how this plan could
fundamentally alter the structure of
American
democracy yes project 202 this um more
than 9900 page document from the
Heritage Foundation think tank is really
a very radical sweeping plan um that
would centralize power in the presidency
and uh pursue what Steve Bannon always
called um the dismantling of the
administrative States um among other
things it would uh potentially lead to
the dismissal of tens of thousands of
federal government employees and allow
them to be replaced by uh what
effectively
political uh employees who um would uh
be veryy much vetted to ensure that they
were loyal to uh to Donald Trump um it
would uh abolish the department for
education for example um and you know it
would really be a step towards uh what
many fear is an authoritarian um
presidency um which you we've heard
enough from Donald Trump to suspect he
would love that and exploit it to the PO
and here where he would just be a
dictator on day one so if you can just
tell us like how would the project 2025
impact my daily life I wake up in the
morning what's changed to for me
personally yeah and you mentioned jar
Huffman um and that stock project 2
25 Congressional body um we're going to
hold hearings I think they're trying to
really Hammer this message home about
how it would uh affect people's uh daily
lives and uh really trying to tie Donald
Trump to project 2025 um it's everything
from um uh climate they certainly want
to defund a lot of climate activities so
that would impact us in a short and long
term uh
lgbtq rights uh would be rolled back um
certainly abortion rights would uh would
suffer yet another blow uh following the
fall of uh row versus Wade um and and so
again as we've already seen you know
millions of women potentially Millions
more women would be um affected by that
um there's some very tough measures
planned on
immigration again echoing Trump's
policies of uh deporting undocumented
immigrants so again thousands not
millions of people will be affected by
that um and you know the the plans for
the economy taking a tough line on on
China uh I think um there would be a
danger of increased inflation and and
other ways in which that would uh impact
people in their their daily
lives thank you David so that's I mean
it's uh as you're saying this touches on
uh just Myriad of different issues uh
and anyone who's a member of ffrf would
know that this uh a lot of the things
you just mentioned are adjacent to State
Church separation so we're going to get
into some of the more specific State
Church implications of project 2025 but
uh first we have a clip from the
Heritage Foundation promoting project
2025 from their perspective let's take a
look and then we'd like to hear your
thoughts David on inauguration day the
four years ahead seems like an eternity
it's not because the left is engineered
our government and institutions to
reject conservative ideology the 2025
presidential transition project brings
together over 60 conservative
organizations to ensure the policy and
Personnel are in place on January 20th
2025 using four pillars we are laying
the foundation for the next president to
end Washington's bureaucracy and restore
American
Prosperity well um we've been here
before um The Heritage Foundation had a
a mandate for leadership in the early
1980s that was very influential on the
uh Ronald Reagan presidency and um and
now I think we see potentially history
repeating itself but on uh on steroids I
mean this document is extremely radical
it's a culmination really of uh the
Trump era and uh by one estimate about
140 Trump Administration officials have
uh have worked on it despite his
attempts to distance himself and and
certainly many of his critics say that
uh Christian nationalism is uh really at
the at the heart of this document um
it's uh very sort of old fashion
Christian conservative language about uh
the importance of the the nuclear family
um family life it's got those Echo that
make America great again um it's
certainly not a document sympathetic to
lgbtq rights um supposes in addition you
defunding diversity inclusion programs
um you the whole thing is really a uh a
throwback and um it's certainly
supported by many of those Republicans
who you've heard questioning the
separation between church and
state um you know those those who argue
um you know we're we're very we don't
want the state influencing the church
but uh we're very happy for the church
to influence the state right and one of
the things that we see coming out of
project 2025 is that pretty much on the
first day of a future extraordinarily
conservative Administration would issue
an executive order that would Grant
pretty much a religious exemption to
almost every facet in American life
whether it's in healthcare or
accommodations you name it it's going to
project 2025 would allow that to happen
and give the muscle and the full force
of the federal government uh to enforce
that type of decision making eroding the
separation of church and state so do you
see something Sim uh similar and then
broadly what do you think could be the
consequ uh consequences for the
separation of state and
church well I think um one interesting
aspect of this is that we're already
seeing project
2025 enacted in certain red States um
whether it's uh the Ten Commandments
been put up in classrooms in Louisiana
or extremely strict abortion bans in
Texas and elsewhere you know at state
level there a laboratory
for project 225 these religious
exemptions and um yeah I'm I'm sure um
that would continue and and you would
potentially have some uh major legal
battles uh between a state such as
California for example and and the
federal government and that might might
go all the way to the Supreme Court and
of course we we know which way the
Supreme Court is leaning these days with
that very um right-wing majority but uh
but yeah I think I think this document
does um you know set up a final victory
for the Christian rights um and um know
sadly those people who don't want to
make a wedding cake for a G couple or
don't want to preside over a gay
couple's wedding would be the would be
in the ascendancy and and then you uh
you ask those worrying questions about
um could the government could the
Supreme Court even pursue the um the
rights of the person same couples to
marry at all which you know at one point
seemed Unthinkable but then of course
the the overturning of Ro versus Wade
also seemed Unthinkable a long time so
and just in terms so basically if you
see what's happening in Texas and you're
moving that's the sneak preview and in
British speak how bad is worrying is
that a 10 alarm or is that a one
alarm uh you know the British are famous
for their understatements so you should
everything I say and and dial it up by
at least 10 points I I I would say you
know when I say concerned it means that
you should
panic and um I would also add you know
part of what you're talking about it it
touches it's hard because it touches on
so many different issues project 2025 is
such just a a huge document it's hard to
wrap your head around it um but there's
also the this central theme right that
in the in Project 2 they have a huge
Coalition of groups that they want to be
influencing public policy and uh they
want to be consolidating power in the
executive in the Oval Office and so what
I always come back to is even if
something is not explicitly in Project
2025 if it's not written out in there
there are groups that ffrf goes to
battle with all the time like you know
first Liberty Institute that are
involved with this project and so these
are the decision makers who they are
putting at the levers of power and then
they're consolidating power in them so
it's it's scary to think uh what
direction they might take it in because
they can really kind of do whatever they
want if they if they get everything
that's in
here uh I'm I'm curious um can I just
add to
that a few weeks ago I interviewed um
Steve Bannon former white house chief
strategist you longtime advisor Donald
Trump you know went to his basement
office on Capital Hill which is
alarmingly close to the Supreme Court
and he had a copy of project 2025 there
and at one point he uh he pointed to it
and said you know that's the Bible and
it uh reminded me that the likes of
Steve Bon his ideas his populist
nationalist ideas would be empowered by
that along as you say with all these um
satellite groups uh on the other hand if
you want um uh purchas draws or have a m
of constellation I I do think uh we've
seen playing out in recent weeks um
there is some rivalry between these
groups you know I mean um there was a a
trump Legacy Think Tank called the
American the America First policy
Institute um and they have some
different ideas and um I can imagine
they they have some disputes on Rival
with project 2025 and and then and then
other groups as well so um yeah this uh
everything you say is true but there's
there's also a sliver of possibility
here that some of these groups might
might be at each other's throats sure
that's really interesting and it uh it
makes sense we've seen especially I
think since there's been such negative
press of project 2020 kind and kind of
shining sunlight on it there are some
groups that really want to distance
themselves uh from it um and I'm I'm
wondering if you can speak more to what
the response has been to project 2025 uh
both from the public and also from
political
figures yeah isn't it always interesting
how
some ideas and proposals and
Brands Catch Fire and others fly beneath
a radar I think there's just something
about the name project 2025 the group
behind it the Heritage Foundation Now 50
years old um that uh captured the
imagination on on both sides of the
aisle so you know Republicans were very
happy to
we may have lost David for a minute I
think we'll just give him a a moment to
reconnect right and I think what's also
really interesting is what he's uh what
David's saying in terms of Steve Bannon
they're getting excited about this
they're seeing how this is moving so I
think it's really interesting to see how
someone like Steve Bannon who I mean for
is fringe and then every year seems to
get closer and closer to mainstream very
conservative thinking
that the definitely folks who think like
him uh in a future right-wing
Administration are going to have really
unbridled control seems to be my takea
away from a lot of this discussion
absolutely and it's it's seeing you know
as David was hinting at it's it's a lot
of groups that historically have not
always been Allied on everything so when
you get that many people into a room
they can't possibly all agree on
everything uh so for instance I know
recently the uh The Discovery Institute
this uh kind of Fringe group that tries
to push uh intelligent design like the
new branded creationism uh they recently
left the project 2025 Coalition they say
they don't want to be associated with it
anymore which I think is is kind of
hilarious you know when you are at a
point where the creationists are no
longer wanting to be associated with you
you know your reputation is is really
suffering so on a for on a scream scale
so it's like on the right side
so project 2025 is further to the
extreme right than creationism in a
sense yep it's it's too
hostile okay um I know we were talking
in the warm-up to the show of um things
that surprised you that's my surprise of
the day there you go uh Mark can you
maybe share some of your thoughts in DC
and being closely connected to our
Congressional allies um on some of the
stuff going on with uh representative
Huffman's stop 2025 task Force yeah I
think that's a really good response that
you're seeing coming from representative
Huffman who many of our viewers know is
the co-chair of the Congressional free
thought caucus and I think it's a really
strong personal point of Pride that the
free thought caucus was on this before
almost any other faction in or caucus or
group in Congress so nice job
freethinkers um for seeing this and nice
job for the caucus that this is
something we saw early and saw and is
giving a lot of attention to and then
you're also seeing that it definitely
had a lot of other folks within the
Democratic caucus um going into the
administration that you've seen you've
seen the reaction from campaigns I think
it's going to be really interesting to
see um what it comes out and what is the
next step and sort of one of the things
that I think is going to be interesting
is that you've actually seen a pretty
good response from the Democratic caucus
where whether it's the stop the com
stock act or it's voting rights
legislation or a few other areas that
definitely go up against um project 2025
so I think with representative Huffman
you are seeing this really good wall
that can be built um through uh
legislation through activities uh to
make sure this doesn't happen again
that's great I yeah I love seeing the um
the secular allies we've seen taking the
lead so uh David is is rejoined uh
welcome back and uh we were just
discussing representative Huffman's uh
stop 2025 task force uh what can you
share what are some of your perceptions
of of that task
force yeah and um I first inter Huffman
doing an article about him the first
non-believer Congress I I described
itself as as an A but uh certainly free
thinker and an guy
this task force I think um goes to uh
how
project like so many things in Poli
bothans but the sort of opposite
reaction on the Democratic side you know
rather than policy proposals or you
fuzzy warnings of what Donald Trump will
do perod down in black and white it's a
literal document that you can dissect
analyze you that's a very tool for um
Democrats to sh a stark warning to to
their voters on on what to expect so you
know
Huff a lot of civil rights groups
involved in this a lot of uh of Congress
including Jamie rasy always very
impressive they're going to hold a
series of mock hearings um set out given
a public hearing as what the implication
of the project 2025 would be perhaps
unsurprisingly
we've heard a little bit L that in the
last few weeks with uh assassination
Donald Trump and a switch of Democratic
candidate little bit hard to get air
time this but I'm I'm sure it will come
back and you know I think sensing that
to go back to your earli
question partly why you are seeing
Donald Trump especially try to dist from
Project 2025
knows that some of its contents are very
extreme they give they give Democrats a
weapon especi the Crackdown of abortion
rights you know I think his sense tells
it obviously big for Republicans trying
to be vague on that um and you know
other things in there as
well a little too star when he would
prefer to be B um last week at the
Republican
mention and I think yeah I think that's
a really important key is in terms of
what Huffman and the Congressional free
thought caucus and other members of
Congress are planning on doing whether
it's the hear the um Shadow hearings
those can have a light War floor
speeches or things like that so I think
that and coming from the guardian I
think that is a pretty credible source
of where you can see this group going uh
hopefully in the near future
so could we could we do a quick uh
rundown David you mentioned a bunch of
the different areas that are um impacted
directly in Project
2025 uh one that you you mentioned uh is
the uh world of civil service when we
call schedule F and I know John Oliver
did a really nice breakdown of uh some
of the implications of that um Public
Schools the so the uh project 2025 calls
for shutting down the Department of
Education entirely so massive impact on
public Public Schools you mentioned
reproductive Freedom lgbtq plus rights
uh racial Justice immigration those are
some of the things that you've uh you've
mentioned uh and so but these are all
concerns that are kind of um domestic so
I wonder with your International
experience uh could people are talking a
lot about these domestic issues I'm
wondering if you can uh give some uh
some thoughts on what the uh
International view of project 20225
might be and how it might affect people
beyond the borders of the United
States I
think all right David I'm so sorry we're
you're breaking up it's it's the audio
is not coming through right so I I I
think we're going to have to end it
there I'm so so sorry but um
uh okay yeah uh so uh Mark we can uh
hopefully fill in some of the the gaps
there um appreciate it having David on
the show for as long as we we could
apologies for technical difficulties um
we will fill people in uh with David's
thoughts because I was uh I'm sad I was
really looking forward because you know
as we mentioned David has uh all this
International experience and really want
to hear his his thoughts on that topic
so we will uh we will return to that at
some uh some later Point yeah and I
think uh so it just gives us a good
reason to have David back on the show
but just for folks of in terms of uh the
guardian his point of view is obviously
what are the impacts uh going on how
could project 2025 impact whether us
steps back um and becomes more
isolationist whether it it definitely is
going to be an impact on State
Department funding
usaid um maintaining um religious
freedom abroad and so I think those are
going to be some interesting uh
questions that they have on that and
then quite frankly I think he uh
hopefully at next appearance can talk a
little bit about is Project 2025 just a
copy and paste job that you're seeing
coming out of Russia or Hungary so
there's a lot to talk about or whether
it's with the UK elections um and the
rise of the reform UK party which is
much more of a right-wing party that
we've seen more than the Tories uh
itself so hopefully we can talk with
David really soon about a lot of this so
stay tuned for an encore presentation
absolutely I so yeah I look forward to
that discussion and uh hearing David's
take on all of that we're going to skip
ahead to audience questions because we
are getting a bunch of them so um
apologies if these are you know directed
uh to David specifically but Mark and I
will do our our very best uh so the um
the first question is are there ways
that project 2025 can be stopped if some
of these proposals were to be put into
motion um so yeah go ahead Mark yeah I
think the best thing to do is make sure
there not a uh extraordinarily
right-wing um presidency uh that goes
into place the next big question would
be uh do uh is there a right-wing
control of the Senate if that doesn't
happen uh where the Democrats have more
are hold on to the Senate that means
they can block appointments that means
they can uh slow down whether it's
judicial appointments and be a block on
that a big area and then or even uh
Supreme Court Justices that come up but
the big threat that's out there is how
friendly are the courts going to be to
project 2025 and their ideas we saw in
Trump versus the United States that
looks like the Supreme Court's going to
be very accommodating so the best thing
to do would be make sure this doesn't
happen and also look uh for places uh
where you can influence that yeah I mean
that's all that all sounds right to me
of course groups like ffrf are going to
to be out there fighting every inch of
this if it were to um to come into
existence another Focus that we would be
that we would take would be on to States
and state courts so you know Mark you
were talking about kind of political
Solutions and how uh it's it it's
potentially very hard to settle these
things in courts especially if there if
the federal Judiciary has been packed
with people who support these ideas
you're not going to get them to overturn
them uh but state courts are a separate
Avenue and remember you know state
courts handle the majority of court
cases in this country so we've seen a a
refocus on state legislatures
politically and also on state courts uh
State Supreme Courts and and lower
courts who can potentially help to uh to
mediate some of the damage that that
these policies would do if they were
implemented so great question um here's
another question about kind of a feeling
of Doom and Gloom so Mark I think you
You' you're very optimistic I think
you're a good person to answer this so
they're saying they're asking in some of
the online communities I've seen
discussing uh project 2025 there's been
a heavy emphasis on immigrating to a
different country to escape it and I
remember this you know similar
discussion in 2016 people were very
afraid and saying I got to get my
passport in order get ready to get out
of here um do you have a response or
suggestion to people who feel that level
of hopelessness in this situation I
think in terms of let's look deeper
about what's happening in the election
itself and I think Wisconsin is a really
good example of good good currents that
you're that you're seeing so Wisconsin
itself okay swing state competitive
Senate seed but you and also you've got
in Congressional District 3 you've got a
competitive house race but even further
down the surface is that you've got all
of these uh new maps that are fair and
you're seeing areas in Wisconsin that
haven't seen a really competitive
campaign so that's more opportunities to
get involved with um and reach out to
people as well plus quite frankly I mean
you're going to have an even Steven
chance that there's not going to be
anyone putting their thumb on the scale
uh in counting the ballots in Wisconsin
so I think I would say to folks um don't
agonize as nany po would say don't
agonize organize and especially think
about areas down ballot where you can
help and you can knock on doors you can
do what you think is best um you can
engage in a lot of those campaigns and
quite frankly they would love to have
your support So Think down ballot
awesome love that um now I can take a
crack at answering this next one uh
which is well many people are against
2025 project 2025 there are some people
who don't seem to be particularly
bothered by it uh why do you think that
is and what could I say to someone who
falls into that category so my thought
would be um you know with with with with
a a thing like project 2025 that touches
so many different areas uh if this is
somebody who you know you know whoever
this person is I would kind of try to
enter their mind a little bit and figure
out what issues do they care about
because chances are very good if they
learn what is in Project 2025 in more
detail about something that they're
passionate about they're going to change
their mind about it so I think it's
probably a matter this is a spot where
you need education so you have to kind
of figure out do they care about public
schools do they have friends who are in
the lgbtq communities do they know any
women who might be impacted by the
Reproductive Rights aspects you know so
finding what is some area that they may
not be locked up with these really
extremist views uh across the board and
just say hey do you know if you and
especially if you can give them a page
site right this is the lawyer and me
coming out but if you can say hey turn
to page you know 453 and look what it
says about this topic and uh it's it's
going to be hard for them to um to just
say oh no I don't think that's a big
deal when it's right there in front of
them yeah and I think a a big part about
it is telling When anybody um says well
how does this matter to you personally
tell a good story is where I always go
so sometimes with project 2025 there's
the idea in it which is deeply rooted to
fire a whole chunk of civil Ser
nonpartisan hardworking Civil Service
servants who make sure your water is
clean and the air is clean and going
from there so do you really want someone
who's a political appointee trying to
figure out and whether it's a Democrat
or Republican trying to figure out is
your water clean and think about that
next time you open the tap and think do
you really want someone whose best
qualification is loyalty to the
president to figure out if your drinking
water's clean and that's where I always
go is just how tell a personal story of
how this could impact you yeah
absolutely I totally agree now I have
thoughts on this next question too this
is a great question someone who's
thinking toward the future says um
should project 2025 end up being
defeated are there ways to prevent a
project 2029 from emerging four years
later and U my initial thought on that
is you know the you can see the effect
that sunlight has had on this project
where clearly this document was written
without the intent of it ever becoming
national news and when people started
digging into it and sharing it and
discussing it in more detail that's when
the rats started to flee the ship right
so I think that's the uh that that's the
solution is there's always going to be
groups out there that are proposing
horrible ideas uh and the the answer to
that is just to beat them with uh
education sunlight and and just
popularity just make it so that it is a
an indefensible position and it is
political cryptonite where right where
people who are running for office don't
want to touch this because they know
it's deeply unpopular and I think one of
the things that recently people have uh
have gotten around popularity is that
this is what you said it's a very
unpopular agenda so but how is it
getting a lot of legs is through the
courts and one of the things ffrf has
been very much for is uh basically to
expand the Supreme Court um with the
Judiciary Act uh that was proposed by
Congressional freethought caucus member
Hank Johnson from Georgia and also
seconded by uh Jamie Rasin from Maryland
who's a congressional freeth thought
cockus co-chair so you've got that and
yeah there's a very good chance they're
couldn't there if uh if this doesn't
work out there's going to be more
iterations so the best way to say that
is for the course to start laying down
um their markers that no Trump V uh us
was very incorrect any type of attempts
for um to have an interial presidency is
not in the Constitution so you're going
to need to get new Supreme Court rulings
to really that's the best protection you
got against project 2025 yeah now we
have another uh question that is on a
related uh concept where they're saying
can something be done about the herit
the Heritage Foundation itself as a
whole or is this more of a whack-a-mole
situation where other groups will pop up
with the same goals and uh I think the
short answer to that is that it is going
to be a bit of a whack and- mole game as
I said there are always going to be
extremist groups that propose these
really bad ideas um I think there's a
serious chance that Heritage Foundation
seems to have seems to be getting itself
into hot water here because because you
know we are discussing these policy
ideas as 501c3 uh may do but the
Heritage Foundation if you look at how
they've been promoting this issue um
they I mean for example they sponsored
one of the major political parties
conventions recently they so they seem
to be really crossing the line of trying
to stay nonpartisan just talking about
policies so I mean maybe there will be
uh um a consequence to that but if there
is yeah there there will be another
group that comes and just presents this
so unfortunately yeah this fight is is
not going away if it's not the Heritage
Foundation uh yes it will be someone
else and I mean I think there's just
kind of uh this is what we talk about a
lot there is almost an huge amount of
right-wing money that's floating around
and it's going to want to find a home in
some place so the best thing you can do
reup your membership to ffrf and I think
on a good end uh that's one of the best
things you can do uh for that is help us
get the tools to uh go up against them
we do a really nice job but if we had
just a little bit more um I think we can
start really Shifting the scales a
little bit I mean we get outspent um
them by a fair amount but if we could
just get a little closer that would make
a huge difference I mean just imagine if
we had more lobbyists more lawyers we
could do more on the ground I mean I
think so the best investment you can
have
ffrf well said couldn't have put it
better
myself um now someone else asks about
the this this clip that we showed at the
top of the show with the president of
the Heritage Foundation and they say
regarding that clip uh do you think
supporters of project 2025 are actually
willing to escalate to violence and Mark
I'm curious your thoughts on this from
the the DC
perspective man I hope not I mean for us
I mean it was January 6 was really
frightening and when you talk with
people on the hill it was essentially
the line was your colleagues tried to
physically harm you and it
was just jarring and frightening and
then how that impacted so if January 6th
is the sneak
preview I hope not and I hope really I
mean with the past few years whether as
you said sunshine and sunlight coming
from the January 6 commission I think
gave people a lot of pause and I really
hope what's happening is that people saw
wait a second Q andon isn't just like a
little game this could get very serious
this could get very serious quickly and
I have noticed in DC that there has been
a cooling down of temperatures over the
past uh four years that's been a little
helpful and I hope that people start
recognizing that politics can be more of
a you know disagreements are good and
that's fine but as this Zero Sum I win
you lose game it doesn't have to be like
that and I think that there are people
who have just had enough of the bad
thanksgivings and the Really unhelpful
conversations and I think that we're and
and you might be even seeing this in uh
Wisconsin of just you know maybe getting
off Twitter is a really good idea and
not paying attention to social media
quite as much and taking a breath and I
think I've seen just in my own life
people getting a little better at that
of just saying okay you know someone
said something maybe we don't need to go
full full out argument get out the fangs
and just be like okay that was a moment
how do we move forward together sure and
I would hope that you know recent events
with an attempted assassination of a
presidential candidate is also chilling
people out little bit kind of reflecting
on this and saying all right this is not
this is somewhere we've been before and
you know as a you know worldwide we've
been here many times before and it's a
path we don't want to go down so yeah I
really hope that there is this General
cooling but I mean there's there's
always going to be some you know really
extreme people who have decided that the
just like there's um there's no point
left in engaging in dialogue and I all
we can do is try to help people stay
away from that that Cliff Edge right
mhm I agree now we got a a legal
question here so I I'll Feld this one uh
that asks are there ways for the
Heritage Foundation and their allies to
explicitly Outlaw dissent from
Christianity uh so such as criminalizing
worship of other religions or lack
thereof or is that too extreme for even
Christian nationalists and um I mean
it's it's amazing that we're even that
this this is a reasonable question and
that's incredible to me if you know
anything about the First Amendment it's
the first protection in the Bill of
Rights is uh freedom of religion and the
right to a secular government and so the
answer to this should be extremely
simple that no this is the most blatant
imaginable First Amendment violation
this is not going to happen but the sad
reality is there is definitely a
contingency of the uh Christian
nationalist Heritage foundations who
would uh love to implement this they are
looking back to the way that the
colonies were before the United States
was a government where they they did
Implement things like this and this is
why we have the First Amendment uh
people in you know the early
pre-american colonists who had not
learned the lesson from Europe at the
time uh were repeating the same mistakes
and so fortunately our Founders kind of
realized this is not going to work we're
not going to be able to live together if
we're operating this way so um it's
another one of these where I hope that
calmer Minds Prevail the good news I
suppose is that we have the legal
structure are built in where uh you know
so long as the first amendment still
exists uh it what the description here
is I think that it's safe to say even
with the extreme Supreme Court like
again it's shocking that this would not
be a 90 decision but if I had to predict
I think we would probably get 72 in
favor of reason if there was a
government that uh you know that said we
are going to Outlaw non-Christian
warship if we're going to Outlaw
satanists from practicing their religion
privately something like that I think
we've still got seven votes on the
current Supreme Court to say this is
going too far so for the time being I
think we're safe from those sorts of
super extreme uh situations but once
again just um shocking that we are even
having this discussion it is it is a
good question yeah that's that's
definitely something I haven't thought
about uh that some folks would be anti-
Hester print I guess as it comes down to
it so we'll see what happen man that's a
lot to think about right now Mark for
your questions earlier uh early on about
uh how uh the the impact of project 2025
a reminder that uh 10 would be you know
the the biggest impact uh so we're
seeing I'm seeing 10 and eights a 10
with an exclamation point so um I would
have been my prediction but uh people
have confirmed that uh people agree that
this is a huge impact on the 20124
election uh so I'm glad that we're
talking about it uh again sad that we
had some technical difficulties with
David we'll have to get him back on the
show uh but that is all the time that we
have today on ask an atheist uh thank
you again for David for coming on to our
show this
week and uh you can follow David's work
at the guardian or by following him on
Twitter at smithin
America that wraps up this week's
episode of ffrf's ask an atheist don't
miss our weekly radio show free thought
radio this week ffrf co-presidents Annie
Lorie gayer and Dan Barker will speak
with Will JV author of the new book
disbelief the origins of Atheism in a
religious species you can find free
thought radio at ffrf.org
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podcasts and be sure to check out the
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