Why do we lie? - CrowdScience podcast, BBC World Service

Summary

このスクリプトは、人間の嘘をめぐる心理学を掘り下げる「CrowdScience」のエピソードを要約しています。なぜ人々は嘘をつくのか、またその意識はどの程度あるのか。子供たちは2歳半ごろから嘘をつくようになり、それが発達の重要なマイルストーンであると示されています。さらに、成人後も嘘をつけど、文化的背景や状況によってそのスタイルは変化します。このエピソードは、嘘をついているときの脳の活動や、文化的相違による嘘の種類についても触れ、様々な視点から人間の嘘を考察しています。

Takeaways

• 🗣️ アリアナ・キンケイドは世界二番目の大きな嘘つきであり、ウェスト・バージニア州チャールストンに住んでいる。
• 🧐 カロリン・スティールはBBC World ServiceのCrowdScienceを担当しており、嘘つきコンテストで優勝した経験を持つ。
• 🤔 アンソニーはカンボジアのプノンペンから質問を投げかけ、なぜ人類は嘘をつくのか、そしてその嘘に意識があるのかを知りたいとしている。
• 👶 心理学者のカン・リー教授によれば、子供は2歳半ごろから嘘をつくようになり、これは彼らが異なる人々が異なる知識を持つことを理解し始めたためである。
• 🧠 脳の前頭葉は嘘をつく際に活性化され、真実を抑制しながら新しいものを作り出す必要がある。
• 📉 子供たちは7歳頃まででほぼ全員が嘘をつくようになり、その後徐々に減少していく傾向にある。
• 🌈 イアン・レスリー著者は、人間の行為に関する本を書いている。彼は白い嘘、グレーの嘘、青い嘘、パープルの嘘、レッドの嘘など、様々な嘘の種類があると語っている。
• 🧬 進化心理学のマキアべリアン理論によれば、人間は他の霊長類よりも大きな社会集団で生活しており、社会的な賢さと嘘をつく能力が進化してきた。
• 🌐 デリック・スコットは、オランダとアメリカの文化の違いを通じて、正直さと嘘の文化的な相違を探求している。
• 🗣️ アリアナは、嘘をつくことは物語や歴史の口承伝統の1形態であり、他人に受け入れやすい形で伝えることができると語っている。
• 🤯 タリー・シャロット教授は、MRIスキャナーを使用して嘘をつく際の脳の活性を研究しており、嘘を繰り返すことで感情的な鈍感化が起こることに気づいた。

Q & A

アリアナ・キンケイドはどのような人物ですか？

アリアナ・キンケイドは世界最大のうそつきコンテストの2位で、ウエストバージニア州チャールストン出身の物語作りの専門家です。

なぜキャロリンはアリアナの本当の名前を疑問にしていますか？

キャロリンはアリアナがかつてうそつきコンテストで審査員を務めていたため、その影響でアリアナの本当の名前を疑問にしています。

アソシエーションが持っている質問は何ですか？

アソシエーションからの質問は、「なぜ私たちはうそをつくのか、そして私たちは自分がつくっているうそにどれだけ意識していますか？」というものです。

子供が初めてうそをつく時期は何歳頃ですか？

科学的な証拠によれば、子供は2歳半ごろからうそをつくようになります。

子供がうそをつくために必要な能力は何ですか？

子供がうそをつくためには、異なる人々が異なる知識を持つことを理解する能力と、真実を抑制し、別の真実を作り上げる能力が必要です。

子供のうそをつく割合はどのように変化しますか？

2歳から7歳までに、子供がうそをつく割合は増加し、7歳でほぼすべての子供がうそをつくようになります。その後、10歳頃には減少し始め、16歳までにさらに減少していきます。

成人は7歳児よりもどれほどうそをつく傾向がありますか？

成人は7歳児ほど頻繁にうそをつくわけではありません。成長することで、倫理的な観点からうそをつく傾向が低下します。

私たちはなぜうそをつけるのか、その背景には何がありますか？

私たちは個人的利益のためにうそをつく傾向があります。例えば、学校で問題を避けるためや、税金を少なく支払うためにです。しかし、社会がうそをつくことがあまりないことが重要で、そうでなければ信頼が失われ社会が混沌となってしまいます。

脳がうそをつくときどのような変化を示しますか？

脳がうそをつくとき、前頭葉が真実を抑制し、新しい物語を作り出すために活動します。また、感情に関連するアミグダラも活動し、うそをつくことで感じる罪悪感の高まりに関与している可能性があります。

私たちはなぜ白い嘘をつくのでしょうか？

白い嘘は、他人の感情を傷つけないために、または社交的な場面を円滑に進めるためにつくられます。これは私たちが社会的な生き物として発達する上で必要なスキルの一つです。

文化の違いは私たちがうそをつく方法にどのように影響を与えますか？

異なる文化では、うそをつくための基準や許容される範囲が異なります。例えば、オランダでは真実を伝えることが重要で、英国では他人の感情を守るために白い嘘をつくことが一般的です。

このスクリプトを通して学んだことは何ですか？

このスクリプトを通して、私たちはうそをつくことが社会的なスキルであり、発達の重要なマイルストーンであることを学びました。また、文化や個人の利益に基づいて、うそをつく傾向が異なることがわかります。

Outlines

00:00

😀 自己紹介と嘘の文化

初段落では、アリアナ・キンケイドという人物が自己紹介し、ウェストバージニア州チャールストンに住むと語ります。アリアナは世界二番目の大きな嘘つきであり、BBCワールドサービスのCrowdScience番組に登場します。番組では、リスナーからの質問に答える形式で、なぜ人々は嘘をつくのか、そしてそれが文化や状況によってどのように影響されるかについて探求します。

05:01

🧐 子供の嘘つきと発達のステップ

第二段落では、多伦多大学の応用心理学・人間開発学部のカン・リー教授によれば、子供が2歳半ごろから嘘をつくことができると報告されています。子供が嘘をつくには、他人が持つ異なる知識を理解し、真実を抑制し、別の真実を作り上げる能力が必要です。これは発達の重要なマイルストーンであり、子供が社会で機能するために必要なスキルです。

10:02

📉 嘘の傾向と成長

第三段落では、子供が2歳から7歳までに嘘をつく傾向が高まっており、その後徐々に減少していく様子が描かれています。大人になると、私たちは嘘を正当化するための様々な方法を考え出し、白い嘘などと呼ぶようになります。また、社会的インテリジェンスを必要とする人間の進化の観点から、嘘をつく能力が私たちのDNAに織り込まれているとされる理論も紹介されています。

15:04

📚 道徳的な教訓と嘘

第四段落では、人々の間で共有される道徳的な教訓や物語、例えば「狼が来た」の話などから、嘘をつくことは社会的に許されないとされていることが示されます。嘘をつかなければcooporationや組織化ができず、社会が機能しないという理由から、人々に真実を語るよう促す社会的なメカニズムが存在する必要があると語られます。

20:06

🎭 嘘つき大会と文化

第五段落では、アリアナが世界最大の嘘つき大会の2位に入賞し、その経験について語ります。この大会はウェストバージニア州の伝統的な催しであり、多くの人々に楽しまれています。アリアナは、嘘つき大会が歴史や物語を伝える口伝の形を通じて持続する貴重な文化であると感じています。

25:07

🧠 脳と嘘の関係

第六段落では、UCLの認知神経科学の教授であるタリ・シャロットが、私たちが嘘をつくときの脳の活動について説明しています。真実を抑制し、新しい嘘を作り上げるために、前頭葉が活動し、感情に関連するアミグダラも活性化する様子がMRIスキャナーで観察できます。また、嘘を繰り返すことで、その行為に対する感情的な反応が麻痺していく「感情慣性」という現象も紹介されています。

🌐 文化差と嘘の様式

第七段落では、さまざまな文化においての嘘の様式について探求しています。オランダでは真実と直接的な表現が重視される一方、英国では他人の感情を守るために白い嘘をつくことがよくあります。日本ではホンネとタテマエという言葉がありますが、これは本当の感情と公の場で示す振る舞いや意見を表しています。文化によって嘘をつく標準が異なるとされる理論も紹介されています。

🎤 嘘と社会的適応

第八段落では、インスタグラムやTikTokで活動するデレク・スコットが、オランダとアメリカでの文化の違いを通じて、嘘と正直さのバランスについて話しています。デレクは、オランダでの生活経験から、文化によって人々の正直さの基準がどのように変化するかについて洞察を得ています。

🎶 嘘の社会的な役割

第九段落では、CrowdScience番組の最終段落では、リスナーアンソニーの質問に答え、なぜ人々が嘘をつくのか、そしてそれが個人的に有利である理由について考察しています。社会が人々の言葉を基本的に信じる必要があるという前提に基づいて、嘘をつくことは控えめでなければならないと結論づけています。

Keywords

💡ライティング

「ライティング」とは、虚偽の陳述をすること、つまり嘘をつく行為を指します。このビデオでは、なぜ人類はライティングを行おうとするのか、そしてそれがどのようにして個人や社会に影響を与えるのかが探求されています。例えば、ビデオでは子供が2歳半ごろからライティングを始めることについて触れており、これは彼らが異なる人々が異なる知識を持つことを理解し、真実を抑制し、別の真実を作り出す能力を持つことを意味しています。

💡文化

「文化」は、ある集団が共有する信仰、習慣、知識、技術などの複合体です。ビデオでは文化がライティングにどのように影響を与えるかについて議論されています。例えば、カンボジアでは人々が非常に親切で笑顔をこぼし、表面的な美しさについて語る傾向がありますが、彼らが本当はどのような感情を抱いているかを理解することはもっと時間がかかります。

💡心理学

「心理学」は、心の科学であり、人間の心の機能や行動を研究する学問です。ビデオでは心理学がライティングの背景にある理論や概念を説明する上で役立ちます。例えば、子供がどのようにしてライティングを学び、それが彼らの発達の重要なマイルストーンであることを示す心理学的な証拠が取り上げられています。

💡発達

「発達」は、生物が成長し成熟するプロセスを指します。ビデオでは、ライティング能力は子供の発達の重要な側面として描かれています。子供が2歳半ごろからライティングを始めることは、彼らが社会を機能させるために発達する2つの基本的なスキルを身につける能力があることを示しています。

💡白い嘘

「白い嘘」とは、他人の感情を傷つけないためにつくった小さな嘘を指します。ビデオでは、人々が白い嘘をついて社会的な状況を回避することについて触れています。例えば、人々に2つか3つの白い嘘を毎日言う習慣があるという研究結果が紹介されています。

💡モラル

「モラル」は、倫理的基準や正義に基づく人間の判断や行動を規定する原則の体系です。ビデオでは、モラルがどのようにしてライティングを正当化し、それが私たちの社会的な振る舞いに影響を与えるかについて議論されています。

💡感情

「感情」は、人間の内面的な状態を指し、喜び、悲しみ、怒り、恐れなどが該当します。ビデオでは、ライティングが感情にどのように影響を与え、その逆も然りであることが示されています。例えば、人々の感情は彼らが嘘をつくことで抑制されることがあり、その結果、彼らはその嘘に対する感情的な反応を失う可能性があると述べています。

💡習慣化

「習慣化」は、継続的な刺激に対する感情的な反応の弱まりを指します。ビデオでは、人々が頻繁にライティングを行った結果、その行為に対する感情的な反応を失う「習慣化」の現象が説明されています。

💡社会的な知能

「社会的な知能」とは、人間の社会的な関係を管理し、社会構造内を効果的に機能させる能力を指します。ビデオでは、社会的な知能がライティングと深く結びついているとされ、それが人間の進化過程で重要な役割を果たしたとされています。

💡子供

ビデオでは「子供」がライティングの能力を獲得し始め、それが彼らの発達の重要なマイルストーンであることが強調されています。子供が2歳半ごろからライティングを始めることで、彼らが異なる人々が異なる知識を持つことを理解し、真実を抑制し、別の真実を作り出す能力があることを示します。

💡神経科学

「神経科学」は、神経系の構造、機能、発達、遗传、疾患、および薬物との相互作用を研究する科学です。ビデオでは、神経科学が私たちがライティングを行っているときの脳内の活動を理解する上で役立ちます。例えば、MRIスキャナーを使用して、人々がライティングを行っているときの前頭葉の活動を観察することができます。

Highlights

Ariana Kincaid, a professional liar, introduces herself and her location in West Virginia, Charleston.

Caroline Steel, the host, expresses her skepticism about Ariana's real name due to her history in liars contests.

The show explores the psychology of lying, starting with the question of why we lie and our awareness of it.

Anthony, a listener from Phnom Penh, Cambodia, shares his experience with cultural differences in lying.

Professor Kang Lee explains that children begin to lie around two and a half years of age, indicating a developmental milestone.

Lying is associated with the development of essential social skills, such as understanding different knowledge states and inhibition.

The decline in lying tendency as children grow older is discussed, with a peak around seven to eight years of age.

Ian Leslie, author of 'Born Liars', argues that lying is central to human existence and social intelligence.

A study reveals that people tell up to three lies within the first 10 minutes of meeting someone new.

Evolutionary psychology suggests that the ability to deceive and detect deception is tied to social intelligence.

The show discusses the cultural variations in lying, such as the Dutch value of honesty and the Japanese concept of Honne and Tatemae.

Derek Scott shares his experiences with cultural differences in honesty between the USA, the Netherlands, and Japan.

Tali Sharot, a cognitive neuroscientist, explains the brain activity involved in lying, including the frontal lobes and amygdala.

A study by Tali Sharot shows that as people lie more, their emotional response to lying decreases, leading to habituation.

The show concludes that while lying can be adaptive, it's important for society to maintain trust as the default.

Derek Scott's candid feedback on his interview experience with the BBC, highlighting the cultural differences in politeness and honesty.

Transcripts

First question: Could you introduce yourself please?  

My name is Ariana Kincaid.

And whereabouts in the world are you?

I am in West Virginia Charleston West Virginia in the United States.

And is your name really Ariana?

It really is.

You're listening to CrowdScience on the BBC World Service.  

I'm Caroline Steel and I don't normally question  everything people say. Could you explain to  

listeners why I'm doubting what your real  name is?

Because I have been in and judged liars contests.

Ariana is the world's second biggest liar and we're joined by this untrustworthy  

character thanks to a question from one of you  listeners.

Hi, I'm Anthony. I'm in the capital of Cambodia, Phnom Penh. And what's your question for  CrowdScience? My question for CrowdScience  

is: Why do we lie and how conscious are we of  the lies that we tell? We all do it at some point  

during the day or during our lives in general  so is this influenced by culture or say the  

context that we tell certain lies?

Anthony's moved all over the world for work and each time he's had to learn a new rule book for lying.

At first it was difficult to suss out who was lying and when but  

then it gradually it goes back to culture you can  understand here in Cambodia people are very  

nice you know they're just extremely smiley and  they'll say the lovely things about you but  

it takes a bit longer to suss out a bit more  what's underneath the surface.

Anthony has an adorable two-year-old daughter who's just learning to tell fibs.

She went over to a friend's house a couple of days ago and she made up this wonderful lie. She said she  

was bored of being there for whatever reason you  know and she started saying "Oh I want to go home  

and sleep". So her mother took her home to sleep  and of course she wasn't sleepy at all she just  

wanted to come home so it was yeah very sweet  I was dead impressed yes.

Top tip on how to get out of social situations from Anthony's daughter there - pretend you're sleepy and hopefully your  

Mum will take you home. I think my friends would  describe me as a bit honest, if they were being  

polite. Very blunt, if they're being honest. I  don't like lies, including white ones. I will  

tell them to get by in awkward social situations  but I try and avoid it. I personally think life  

would be much better if we all always tell the  truth and know exactly where we stand with each

other. On this show we're going to untangle  the web that is the psychology of lying. So

when does this deception begin? Anthony's  fibbing two-year-old suggests lying starts  

at a very young age. Professor Kang Lee from the Department of Applied Psychology and

Human Development, at the University of Toronto is an expert on kids lying strategies.   

According to scientific evidence,  children begin to lie around two and a half years of age. 

So isn't that basically when children  are learning to speak?   

Yes indeed they just barely are able to put words together to make a sentence, they start to lie.   

What is it about a two and a half year old that means they can lie? Like what is it that we need to be able to lie?  

So what is needed is the child has to understand that different people have different knowledge about  

the world. Another thing that's extremely important  is the ability to inhibit. So that's the ability to  

inhibit the truth and then switch over to come up  with the alternative truth. These two abilities  

are the essential skills we have to develop as  humans. When we function you in our society so  

lying is sort of like a good sign. Your child has  arrived at this kind of important milestone of development.

So we should sort of be celebrating  a child's first lie rather than sort of scorning them?

Oh definitely so this is you know this is a  moment for you to be very proud of your child.

Do you have kids? Yes I do. Do you remember  a first lie and what your reaction was like?   

So I brought him to my lab to see whether or not he  would lie about a transgression, which is he's peeking  

at the answer to a game and he did. So I was very  happy. "Ah, my kid can lie". You must be one of the only  

parents who are like "Yes my kid lied, he's doing  fantastically well, he's developing fantastically".  

So as we develop, how do our lies change? So is  a two-year-old lying in a different way from a  

seven-year-old or is it basically a skill that  sort of stays with us for life?   

At about two years of age it's only a third of kids two and a half years old would lie. At four more than 80% of kids  

would lie. By about seven, almost all kids will  lie to cover their transgressions. This is kind of universal across the world.

Do adults lie as much as seven year olds or do we get a bit more caught up in the ethics of lying?

Once you reach the peak around seven to eight years of age, we start slowly  

decline our tendency to lie. By about 12 years of  age the lying rate is about 60% instead of let's  

say 100% around seven years of age and the decline continues to about 16 years of age  

so basically if you look at the teenager years  as actually a more honest period of development  

That's so the opposite of what I would expect. What changes between teenager and adult? Why do we start to lie more again?

We come up with all sorts of ways to rationalise the lies we tell, we  

call it moral licensing.

Lying is a healthy part of development. We pick it up at around two and practice it freely until we reach our teenage years, when lying starts to get tangled up in  

morality and to justify it to ourselves we start  to give lies names like white lies. In fact Kang  

has a whole rainbow of colours for understanding  different lies. White Lies are lies we tell to  

be polite, to spare others feelings. Grey Lies are a  lie we tell to cover up our own mistakes. Blue Lies,

a lie we tell in the interest of a collective or  group. Purple Lies are lies we tell to be modest, to  

remain lowkey. Red Lies are lies told out of spite  and revenge. We can give them different colours but  

at the end of the day a lie is a lie. It's a way  of deceiving someone.

Hi, I'm Ian Leslie. I'm an author. I've written books about human behaviour, about all sorts of things. But my first book

was about lying. It's called Born liars: Why we can't live without deceit.

So why can't we live without deceit?

Great question, I'm so glad you  asked. Well the argument I make amassing lots of different evidence from lots of different  fields is that lying is much more central to our  

existence, to our societies, to who we are as human  beings then we like to think. Almost everybody lies  

a lot right and studies have shown you  know people kind of tell two or three white Lies  

a day right but it's just something which is  kind of woven into daily existence and yet  

we talk about it as if it's this aberration or  this perversion or this terrible terrible kind of weird thing. I find that really interesting.

How many lies do you think you tell a day?  

Two? Three? Maybe even five? A study shows that when meeting a new person we might tell up to three  

lies in just 10 minutes. And Ian thinks this has  been happening for a very long time.  

There's a really interesting theory from evolutionary psychology called a Machiavellian theory of intelligence

Early, early humans and our  sort of predecessors on the evolutionary tree  

lived in larger social groups than other  primates. Now if you're in a large social  

group you have to know who your allies are and who  your enemies are and what's going on and you have  

to become socially intelligent, there's this kind  of arms race going on where you have the detect  

deception and when you deceive you have to be good  at it otherwise they detect it. When they looked at  

ape behaviour they saw all these kind  of interesting examples of deception. A young  

ape would be caught doing something that they  shouldn't have been doing, going after the food  

they shouldn't have been, taking whatever and runs  up to the ridge of a hill and sort of makes a  

noise which usually indicates I can see a kind  of enemy troop approaching and all the elders  

kind of run after the younger one when they  get there they realise there's no threat at all  

but by that time they've kind of forgotten why  they run up there and you know the ape has  

just made a successful kind of diversion.  You see these like little micro-examples of  

of deception and deceit and dishonesty quite  a lot once you start looking for them. Larger  

the frontal cortex the more lying was associated  and of course we have the largest frontal cortex  

of all and we do the most lying so it's  kind of really woven into our DNA, it's  

bound up with our social intelligence which is  also responsible for all the kind of you know  

amazing things that we do, but you can't kind  of separate one from the other.

It's interesting that we all lie and yet there are moral codes written into sort of all the stories we come  

across as a child, which are basically saying  don't lie - you have The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

There once was a shepherd boy who was  bored as he sat on the hillside watching  

the village sheep. To amuse himself he took a  great breath and sang out "Wolf, wolf, the wolf  

is chasing the sheep". The villagers came  running up the hill to help the boy drive  

the wolf away but when they arrived  at the top of the hill they found no  

wolf. The boy laughed at the sight of their  angry faces. "Don't cry wolf when there's no wolf".

Later the boy sang out again "Wolf, wolf,  the wolf is chasing the sheep". He watched the  

villagers run up the hill to help him drive the  wolf away. When the villagers saw no wolf, they  

sternly said "Save your frightened song for when  there is really something wrong, don't cry wolf  

when there is no wolf". Later he saw something big  with terrible teeth and scary eyes prowling around  

the sheep field. It was a real wolf. Alarmed he  leapt to his feet and sang out as loudly as he  

could but the villagers thought he was trying  to fool them again and so they didn't come.  

In almost every moral code there's some commandment against deceit so it's clearly been an incredibly  

important thing in any human society to punish or  shame people for for lying right and you can see  

why. If you can't rely on people to tell the truth  most of the time then you can't really cooperate, 

you can't organise, you can't get anything done.  So you need to kind of find a social mechanism  

for stopping that and for minimising it anyway - how to manual for living right your moral commandments or whatever it is.

You're listening to CrowdScience on the BBC World Service.

I'm Caroline Steel and we're answering a question  from listener Anthony who wants to know: Why do  

we lie and can we lie without even realising  it? In some ways this show is a lie or at least  

it's a story. We've stitched together interviews  to make a logical narrative. The conversations  

didn't actually happen in this order and we cut  out bits so the show isn't too long but we have  

a sort of unwritten understanding between you  listeners and us the CrowdScience team that  

that's OK. I'd like to introduce you to Ariana,  a storytelling expert and medal holder from the  

world's biggest liar competition who we heard from  at the start of the show. I came in second. That's  

pretty good, so second in the world's biggest lying competition. Yes it is the world's biggest lying  

competition. How do you feel about having the title of  

being the second best liar in the whole world?  Well honestly I feel like it's  

almost more believable because you know if I was  lying why wouldn't I make myself sound better.

Commiserations. How on Earth did you get into  lying competitions? Well it's sort of in the  

culture around here, there's a large festival here  in Charleston, the Vandalia Gathering and they

started back in the 70s with the liars contest.  This annual event in West Virginia USA is one  

of the busiest in the calendar. The storytelling  competition also known as the biggest liar  

event of the Vandalia Gathering has become a  Memorial Day weekend tradition for many in the  

mountain state. And it's just one of those  things I think everybody around here enters at  

least once and if they don't they've been to it  to watch the people lying. It's run by the state  

department for culture and history which takes  pride in carrying on this strong tradition of  

being home to the very best liars.

My husband has been in it, my daughter's been in  it, they've both won so it was sort of entering  

it was sort of self-defence really. Why is it  important to you? What do you see as the value of  

lying? It's really just the oral tradition of  history and storytelling in a way that makes  

it palatable for others. So something that I've  learned in this show which is sort of I've found  

surprising is how important lying is socially  it's something I've always almost looked down on  

and been like whenever anyone tells  a lie regardless of whether or not it's a white  

lie or a self-serving lie I would sort of judge it  as a bad thing, but I'm definitely changing my mind  

on that as I talk to more people about this. So I  would like to get better at lying because I would  

say I am a categorically terrible liar. If you got  any tips as the world's second best liar. You have  

to believe what you're saying whether it's true or  not you know it's not true but you have to sound  

like you believe what you're saying. I think there  are certain cues like you said you get nervous  

when you tell a lie and you wind up telling the  truth right afterwards anyway. The closer you  

stick to the truth, the less your body betrays you  I think in telling the story. Lying is complicated.  

It takes a lot of mental work to do it. You have  to come up with an entirely new story and that's  

all going on inside our brains in a way that's  invisible to people watching. Unless you're a  

neuroscientist with an MRI scanner. I'm Tali Sharot, a professor of cognitive neuroscience at UCL.

So what is going on inside our brains when we lie?

Right so when we lie we need to do two things: We need to suppress the truth and then we need  to make up something new. Can you see those two  

things happening in the brain if you look inside  it? Yeah so you'd see the frontal lobes active  

both in suppression of the truth, both in you  know imagining and inventing something new which  

is a lie and then you could also see activity  related to emotion so for example the amydala  

which is important for emotional arousal may also be active. So how can you go about studying  

what's going on in someone's brain when they  lie, do you put them in like an MRI scanner  

or how does it work? Yeah so we put them in an MRI  scanner and we create situations where naturally  

people will tend to lie. One experiment that we  did we put people in a situation where if they  

lied they would gain more money at the expense of  another person. And what percentage of people in  

that experiment do lie? So almost everyone lies the  question is by how much.

When we lie there's more activity in our frontal lobes, which is the part of the brain responsible for problem solving, as  

we suppress the truth and invent an entirely new  story and our amydala which is our emotion centre  

fires up, probably because the fib makes us feel  bad. In one of Tali's studies she found that the  

more people lie the less active their amygdalas  are suggesting the less they care. Sounds like  

a slippery slope. And the more opportunities they  have to lie the more and more they lie so from one  

pence it goes to a pound then it goes to two pounds and three pounds and so on, so they become comfortable  

with their own lying so lying escalates it kind  of snowballs. Interestingly people were not aware  

that they were doing this at all. At the end we  told them "Hey look what happened, you know  

you lied by a little bit then you lied more and  more and more" and they were not aware, so this  

seems to be at least partially unconscious, if not  fully unconscious. Anthony that's the answer to the  

second part of your question: Can we lie without  realising it? Well yes, we can if we lie enough we become numb to it.

So this is something that's known as emotion habituation. By the time they get  

to this lie that's really large they've already  become desentised. 

To me this feels like that's not a useful behaviour, like becoming desensitised to lies around us makes us I guess a less good

judge and I can imagine sort of socially it's  not great to lie more and more you're going to  

lose the trust of people around you. Are there any  advantages to this behaviour?

We see this behaviour because it is due to a basic element of the brain. So this behaviour did not evolve for lying  

right it's basically because habituation  is something that is adaptive. The brain  

is a limited resource so it can't just react to  everything all the time. Things that don't change  

and do not harm us our brain filters out so that  it has resources to direct to things that are more important.

Habituation means we can become  emotionally desensitised to lying.

This could happen as we tell more and more lies to  get ourselves out of a sticky situation or it  

could happen when we move to a new culture  and our behaviours have to adjust to fit in.  

Derek Scott also known as Let's Double Dutch on  Instagram and TikTok makes videos about awkward  

social situations where honesty in his hometown  of Amsterdam clashes with his experience growing  

up in the USA. Well I look at kind of Dutch  language and culture and identity bumping up  

against different anglophone people. There's a  value in Dutch culture that's embedded in the  

language that the truth and direct expressions of  your thoughts and feelings are important above all else.  

I prefer the Dutch way of doing things but  I've dabbled relatively unsuccessfully in stand-up  

comedy and I was doing it in Amsterdam and it  was awful and I was like I want the ground to  

swallow me up. Well I'm sorry about that. You  know Dutch people are not liberal with their  

laughs at any form of live performance. I think  that's a cultural value because again they're not  

going to go out of their way to make you feel  good. They I think believe that that's up to you  

and that's sort of expected but maybe we would  just all adjust if we just did it the Dutch way  

and everyone got used to having a little bit I  guess harsher feedback a bit more honesty.

In your experience of living in different places  where has been your favourite place in terms of  

levels of honesty. I grew up in the suburbs of  Chicago my family's all still there. I go back  

sometimes and I'm in like a store checking out  and the cashier is like "How are you doing today?"  

You know in the Netherlands like if you ask  a Dutch person that while you're ringing up  

their milk like they'll fully dissociate they're  like I don't know what to do with this question  

this is absurd, this is high comedy to them, that  would be so outrageous and now when I'm in that  

position I similarly like kind of just have an  out of body experience. I think I don't know what  

to do right now. Interesting it's so relative isn't  it. Do you think your level of honesty and what is  

acceptable just adjusts when you move from place  to place? Oh completely, for people who  

have you know experienced being a foreigner  somewhere or had to adjust to language and  

culture I think those nuances and those kind  of in between spaces become something you

know have to get used to and eventually build  into your own sensibility and way of communicating.  

Every culture has a different flavour of lying.  The Netherlands might be more honest than most  

countries, while in the UK we are constantly  telling white lies to protect each other's  

feelings. In Japan there's even language for it -  Honne means your true feelings, while Tatemae mean the

the behaviour and opinions you display in public  and according to Kang, the psychologist we heard  

from earlier in the show, in China purple lies are  common, which is where people will tell lies to be  

modest, maybe to say hide a good score on a test.  Here's Ian Leslie again.

I think if you looked across different cultures say different national cultures you'd find different norms for the  

amount of direct truth telling let's put it that  way from whether you're  

talking about Britain versus Japan versus  the Netherlands, right, you probably find kind of  

three different standards there of how direct  should we be about about telling the truth. So

the amount of truth telling you do is always  in relationship to the cultural norm whether  

or not that's in society at large or within your  your relationship or the group that you're in.  

Anthony, Derek, that sounds like your experience  of moving between different cultures and maybe  

some of you listeners can relate to that too. If  so I'd love to hear about your experiences of  

lying in your country and you can get in  touch with us to tell us at [email protected].

I want to say in this conclusion that this show has convinced me that lying is a good thing because that would make a nice story. Ariana would be proud but that would be  

lying. But Anthony I hope we've answered your  question about why we do it. We lie because it  

benefits us personally. Maybe it stops us from  getting into trouble at school or means we pay  

slightly less taxes but the key thing is that we  don't lie too often so it still makes sense for  

society's default to be to trust what people  are saying otherwise life would be chaos and  

before we hear the credits from Anthony I'd like  to play you the end of my interview with Derek.

So that was a great interview. Thank you for coming  in. Oh now yes okay. Yeah I mean had lots to talk  

about cultural differences, honesty. I did not  enjoy it so much. You didn't... you didn't enjoy  

the interview? No. Surely there were some bits  you liked I mean we were just having a nice  

conversation? Yeah it's too much science. Too much  science? Yeah. You are aware this is CrowdScience?  

And why do you have all these questions from  people all over the world? The questions from  

our listeners? Yeah. I mean that is the premise of  the show, we answer questions from listeners. You  

told me I had to stay in this tiny little room  and that I could not go to the bathroom until  

we were done recording. But this tiny room is a  studio, it's quite expensive to book, we only  

have half an hour, we had a lot to get through.  What is this place, everybody makes such a  

big deal out of this building? The BBC. Yeah I am  underwhelmed. Underwhelmed by the BBC? Yeah. OK.  

You're very honest aren't you? Oh do you think so?  Yeah. I mean most people I interview tell me they  

had a great time afterwards in fact, I think  everyone I've ever interviewed has said they  

enjoyed themselves. Well I did not, maybe they  did but I did not. I just think maybe there's  

something in being polite, something in being kind,  saying you had a good time even if you didn't love  

all of it. Lying? It's not lying, I would not lie  like that, it's not lying, it's not lying, that's  

just being polite. Do I bother you? No, no, it's  been great having you on. Yeah I think that's a lie.

That's it for this edition of CrowdScience.  Today's question was from me Anthony in Phnom Penh,  

Cambodia. If you have a question you want  answering you can email [email protected].

This week's presenter was Caroline Steel  and the episode was produced by Robbie Wojciechowski.