“Israel Does NOT Want To End This War” Deadly Gaza Hostage Raid
Summary
TLDRIn a heated debate, panelists discuss the complex realities of the Israel-Hamas conflict, acknowledging both the necessity of Israel's actions to rescue hostages and the devastating civilian casualties in Gaza. The conversation explores the moral quandaries, the asymmetry of the conflict, and the international community's role, including the US's unconditional support for Israel. The discussion also touches on the potential for a ceasefire and the challenges of achieving a lasting peace amid the ongoing violence and political divisions.
Takeaways
- 📢 The debate centers on the complex realities of the Israel-Hamas conflict, highlighting the need for a nuanced understanding of both sides' narratives.
- 🔍 There is a reported discrepancy in the death toll from the conflict, with the Hamas-run Health Ministry claiming 274 deaths versus the IDF's claim of fewer than 100, including terrorists.
- 🏠 The Israeli forces' raid on a refugee camp in Gaza is condemned, with the acknowledgment that children and civilians were among the casualties.
- 👥 The successful rescue of four Israeli hostages by the IDF is seen as a triumph, despite the broader context of violence and loss of life.
- 🌐 The discussion underscores the polarization and entrenched positions within the conflict, with little room for compromise or peace negotiations.
- 🇮🇱 The script mentions Israel's unconditional support from the United States, suggesting it gives Israel a 'blank check' to act without international accountability.
- 🔄 The debate participants express the moral quandary of weighing the rescue of hostages against the cost of civilian lives in military operations.
- 🤝 There is a call for a ceasefire and a multi-year reconstruction plan for Gaza, indicating international efforts to resolve the conflict.
- 🏛️ The script raises questions about the role of Hamas in future governance and the need for accountability for its actions, similar to that demanded of Israel.
- 💡 The discussion highlights the importance of viewing Palestinians and Israelis as equal stakeholders with rights to freedom and dignity.
- 🌍 The debate concludes with a call for an end to the occupation and siege, and for the international community, especially the United States, to reconsider its support for Israel.
Q & A
What was the main event that triggered the conflict between Israel and Hamas mentioned in the script?
-The main event was the abduction of four hostages at a music festival on October 7th by Hamas, which led to Israel declaring war on Hamas.
How does the script describe the Israeli forces' raid on the refugee camp in Gaza?
-The script describes the raid as a successful operation to free the abducted hostages, but also mentions a high death toll, including children and civilians, as reported by the Hamas-run Health Ministry.
What is the discrepancy between the death toll numbers reported by the Hamas-run Health Ministry and the IDF?
-The Hamas-run Health Ministry reports 274 deaths, while the IDF claims to have killed fewer than 100 people, including Hamas terrorists.
What moral dilemma does the script highlight regarding the conflict?
-The script highlights the moral dilemma of acknowledging the horror of the refugee camp raid and the killing of innocents, while also recognizing the importance of Israel's successful rescue of the hostages.
What is the script's stance on the value of life in the context of the conflict?
-The script suggests that the value of life should not be differentiated based on nationality or affiliation, and that the loss of any innocent life is a tragedy, regardless of the side.
What is the script's view on the role of the United States in the conflict?
-The script implies that the United States provides unconditional support to Israel, regardless of actions, which may contribute to the perpetuation of the conflict.
What is the argument presented by the script regarding the asymmetry of the conflict?
-The script argues that the conflict is asymmetrical, with Israel having more power and resources, and that this power imbalance affects the dynamics and potential resolution of the conflict.
What is the script's perspective on the potential for peace between Israel and Palestine?
-The script suggests that achieving peace is a daunting task, given the current state of the conflict and the entrenched positions of both sides, but it does not completely dismiss the possibility of a resolution.
How does the script address the issue of civilian casualties in the conflict?
-The script emphasizes the tragedy of civilian casualties, particularly the deaths of women and children, and questions the morality of actions that lead to such outcomes.
What is the script's view on the role of Hamas in the conflict?
-The script acknowledges Hamas's role in initiating the conflict through the abduction of hostages but also holds them responsible for maximizing civilian casualties in their responses to Israeli actions.
What is the script's opinion on the international community's response to the conflict?
-The script calls for international pressure on both parties, particularly on Israel, to end the conflict and suggests that unconditional support for Israel, especially from the United States, should be reconsidered.
Outlines
😔 Polarized Views on the Israel-Hamas Conflict
The paragraph discusses the complexity and polarization surrounding the Israel-Hamas conflict, particularly following an Israeli military operation in Gaza. It acknowledges the tragic loss of life, including children, and the moral dilemma of balancing the rescue of Israeli hostages by Hamas with the civilian casualties caused by the IDF's response. The speaker emphasizes the need for a moral conscience regarding innocent suffering and criticizes the lack of accountability for repeated atrocities. The conversation includes a debate with journalist Emily Austin, Palestinian-American commentator Omar Baddar, and podcast host Dave Smith, highlighting differing views on the conflict's moral and strategic aspects.
😠 The Asymmetry of the Israel-Palestine Conflict
This paragraph delves into the asymmetrical nature of the conflict, with a focus on the perceived unconditional support for Israel by the United States, regardless of actions. It discusses the moral quandary of valuing Israeli lives over Palestinian lives and the challenges of achieving peace when one side feels it has a 'blank check' signed in the blood of the other. The conversation explores the idea of limits on military action to rescue hostages, the responsibility for civilian casualties, and the broader implications of the conflict on the perception of Western civilization's values.
😡 The Escalation and International Response
The paragraph addresses the escalation of the conflict and the international response, including the resignation of Benny Gantz from the Israeli War Cabinet due to a lack of clear endgame strategy. It highlights the split within the Israeli hierarchy and the push by right-wing members of the government cabinet to continue the military onslaught against Hamas. The discussion points to the futility of endless comparisons of atrocities and the need to address the root cause of the conflict, which is the ongoing occupation and siege of Palestinian territories by Israel.
😤 The Debate Over Occupation and Legitimacy
This paragraph presents a contentious debate over the concept of occupation, with one participant challenging the narrative that Israel's control over Palestinian territories is illegitimate. The argument questions the historical legitimacy of a Palestinian state and the responsibility for the current situation. The counter-argument emphasizes the reality of Israel's occupation since 1967, the asymmetry of power, and the human rights of Palestinians under occupation, drawing parallels to historical examples of settler colonialism.
🕊️ The Path Toward Ceasefire and Peace
The paragraph discusses the breaking news of a US-drafted UN Security Council resolution supporting President Biden's proposal for a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. It outlines the potential three-phase plan, including a full and complete ceasefire, the release of hostages, the return of deceased hostages' remains, and a multi-year reconstruction plan for Gaza. The conversation reflects on the challenges of achieving a lasting peace, the role of international pressure, and the need for a fundamental change in the approach to the conflict.
🤔 Reflections on the Future of Gaza and Hamas
In the final paragraph, the discussion centers on the implications of the proposed ceasefire and the future role of Hamas in Gaza. It questions the feasibility of a permanent ceasefire under Netanyahu's condition of Hamas's complete defeat and the international community's responsibility in applying pressure for a resolution. The conversation also addresses the issue of funding for both sides, calling for an end to financial support that fuels the conflict, and emphasizes the need for Israel to negotiate in good faith and recognize Palestinians' rights for a peaceful resolution.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Polarized commentary
💡Refugee camp
💡Hostages
💡Casualties
💡War crimes
💡Moral conscience
💡Asymmetrical conflict
💡Occupation
💡Settlements
💡International law
💡Human rights
Highlights
The complexity of the situation in Gaza is underscored by the fact that two truths can coexist: the innocence of children killed in a refugee camp and the relief of Israel freeing hostages.
The discrepancy in reported death tolls between the IDF and the Hamas-run Health Ministry highlights the challenge of verifying facts on the ground.
The debate over Israel's actions raises questions about the limits of military response and the moral conscience regarding innocent suffering.
The discussion suggests that the conflict has become deeply entrenched, with little willingness from either side to acknowledge wrongdoing or seek resolution.
The United States' unconditional support for Israel, despite international criticism, is a significant factor in the ongoing conflict.
The moral quandary of Israel's military operations is explored, questioning the limits of what is acceptable to rescue hostages.
Emily Austin emphasizes the joy of the hostages' rescue but also the tragic cost to innocent Palestinian life.
The Palestinian health authority's historical accuracy in reporting is considered in the context of the current crisis.
Omar Bad argues that all bloodshed in the conflict is ultimately Hamas's fault, highlighting the complexity of assigning blame.
The conversation touches on the historical context of the conflict, including past atrocities and the cycle of violence.
The role of the international community, particularly the United States, in influencing the conflict's trajectory is examined.
The debate over the definition of 'occupation' and its implications for the conflict is a key point of contention.
The participants discuss the potential for a ceasefire and the challenges of achieving a lasting peace.
The breaking news of the UN Security Council's resolution supporting a ceasefire proposal is a significant development in the conflict.
The discussion concludes with a call for an end to the conflict, emphasizing the need for recognizing the humanity and rights of Palestinians.
Transcripts
two things can be true at the same time
that is a fact that has been all but
abandoned in the fevered and polarized
commentary on the Israel Hamas War this
weekend Israeli forces raed a refugee
camp in Gaza and successfully freed four
hostages who've been abducted at a music
festival on October the 7th the Hamas
run Health Ministry says that 274 people
died in that raid including children and
civilians the IDF says it killed fewer
than a 100 in total including Hamas
terrorists but whatever the real figure
it's obviously horrific this was a
refugee camp children were killed they
are clearly innocent that doesn't make
it any less horrifying the four innocent
Israelis were s snatched by terrorists
at a music festival in the first place
and no less of a Triumph that Israel has
now brought them home these things can
all be true at the same time and the
exact same Lo logic applies to the war
itself Israel had no choice but to
declare war on Hamas for perpetrating
the worst massacre of Jewish people
since the Holocaust but it doesn't have
a blank check signed in Palestinian
blood to commit repeated atrocities
without accountability especially now
that members of netanyahu's own
government are calling out his failure
to explain the Israeli endgame to the
very many people on both sides have
attacked me for saying that my question
is simply this what exactly is wrong
with having a moral conscience about
innocent people suffering and more
importantly where is yours well joining
me out to debate this journalist and
broadcaster Emily Austin Palestinian
American commentator Omar bad and the
host of part of the problem podcast Dave
Smith well Dave let me start with you
actually
um a lot of people are part of the
problem it seems to me the longer this
war has gone on the more entrenched
people have got into their various
tribes and it's got increasingly toxic
there's no admission by any one in those
tribes of any wrongdoing on their side
uh and there's no attempt at any attempt
to come across the bridge and Forge any
kind of settlement resol ution or peace
it seems to me like we are entering a
really depressing phase of all this war
what is your
view well I I can't disagree with any of
that it's certainly depressing I mean
we're listen this has been going on
since October we're nine months into
this thing now so it's been depressing
for a while and I agree with everything
you said in your opening that of course
perpetrating violence against innocent
civilians is wrong no matter who does it
and that ought to be the basis for
Western Civilization I mean especially
for people who like to kind of brag
about western civilization and and the
aspects where it's Superior to others um
the the thing here though right is that
as you say Israel can't doesn't just
have a blank check signed in Palestinian
blood but objectively the reality seems
to be that they do and that they have
unconditional support from the United
States of America the global uh
superpower no matter what even if our
own president asks them not to do
something and they do it they still
continue to receive this unconditional
support and of of course but as I've
said to you before Pierce and I think
this has kind of been the fundamental
truth throughout this entire conflict is
that the only way you can really support
Israel and what they're doing is if on
some f fundamental level you value
Israeli life more than you value
Palestinian life okay and if that's your
starting point fine but if that's not
your starting point then you don't look
at a mission that that got four Israelis
back and killed a bunch of children as a
success well you see that's where I have
a real again I've used this phrase many
times in this war a moral quandra I'll
tell you why should there be any limit
given that Hamas kidnapped these people
kidnapped young women they kidnapped
babies they kidnapped Holocaust
Survivors uh as well as murdering and
wounding thousands and thousands of
people should there be any limit to what
Israel should be able to do militarily
to rescue those hostages from all the
footage coming out they they planned
this cuz they had information about
where they were being held they then
sent special forces in to get them came
under heavy heavy fire um and as a
result of that there were air cover sent
in as well uh and I'm just curious what
should be the limit on Israel to go and
rescue these innocent kidnapped
hostages well I mean look the the limit
should be you know in general what the
the limit over the this conflict should
be is that your number if your number
one priority is to get back the hostages
I think this whole campaign would have
been conducted in a very different way
than it has been over the last nine
months but you know look what's wrong
the the essence of what makes it immoral
to take these hostages is that these are
innocent people who did not do anything
to Forfeit their natural god-given
rights but that also has to apply to
innocent Palestinians who were not
involved in October 7th or have no blood
on their hands we're not
members of uh Hamas militant groups and
these are and and we're describing
millions of people who fall into that
category and so you know the i in an
Ideal World the limit would be that you
could only go after those people who
were directly responsible now in war
that's rarely the case that there are no
uh uh innocent casualties however I
think a reasonable approach would be to
expect Israel to do what they always
claim that they're doing which is just a
blatant lie which is that we're doing
everything we can to avoid civilian
casualties but very clearly that's not
been how they've been conducting this
war all right Emily let me bring you in
here I mean look I was joyous when I saw
that these hostages had been rescued
particularly Noah uh aamani whose story
touched the world seeing this beautiful
young woman being taken off on a
motorbike absolutely desperate with fear
and we all feared the worst for her and
then the added uh human dimension of her
mother having incurable brain cancer
and very sadly it appears she's she's
too far gone with the cancer now to even
really understand what has happened with
her daughter coming home and wanted to
live until she did get home so the whole
thing was was tragic but has the joy of
her obviously being rescued um but when
you look at these numbers I me think
about the Palestinian health authority
numbers is it historically going back
before October the 7th for
decades um or several decades anyway
when these figures relased by the
Palestinian health authority which is
Hamas run have been verified
independently they've come back as
reasonably accurate I mean not
completely but reasonably accurate
numbers we don't know whether these are
reasonably accurate the ones they're
putting out now but Israel admits to
killing at least a 100 people we don't
know how many of those are Hamas and
they say 274 either way it's clear from
the scenes of the hospital that there
have been a lot of women and children
innocent people clearly caught up in
and so the same the same question for
you really yes I'm joyous at the return
of hostages yes I think Israel
absolutely has a right to go and get
them but at what cost to innocent
Palestinian
life what's interesting about these
debates that end up becoming pretty
chaotic is that everyone expects usually
the zionists and I I can't speak for
anyone but myself to be Unapologetic
about Palestinian casualties now that's
not me that will never be me because I'm
not a monster now of course Israel needs
to do its best job to protect innocent
civilians now when I say innocent
civilians I don't mean the journalists
or oped writers that are keeping
hostages in their home if you're
complicit in keeping hostages or you're
complicit in terrorism to me you're not
a civilian you're a terrorist as well I
agree now with that being said at the
same time my point is never in my life I
will never say the Palestinians deserve
it this is what they get because of
Hamas my point is always the same all of
the blood spilled on both sides of this
conflict are hamas's fault it's only
Hamas to blame because if it wasn't for
October 7th the idea for not be in Gaza
if it wasn't for the hostages being in
civilians Apartments guess what Pierce
there'd be no civilian casualties and I
also want to point out one thing just a
food for thought is it only IDF bullets
that penetrate excuse me does Hamas not
fire back do you think Hamas is not
responsible for casualties as well so my
point is never that it's Justified it's
always the same every ounce of blood
spilled needs to be blamed on Hamas and
the world needs to put international
pressure on Hamas because if the
hostages were released time and time
again this war could have ended instead
where do they put them in a refugee camp
to maximize the casualties that
everyone's going to face okay before
okay before I go to before I go to Omar
I do think it's very disingenuous when I
hear the argument if Hamas just released
the hostages this war would be over
Israel's stated mission is not just to
get the hostages back is to eliminate
Hamas so correct getting the hostages
back is one part of it but it's not it
is just not true to say if they handed
them more back tomorrow Netanyahu would
not want the remaining Hamas terrorist
to still be there he would continue as
he'd make very clear to execute this war
until he got rid of all of Hass so I
that unreasonable did did did America
not want Al-Qaeda dead after 911 yeah no
I'm just saying I'm just saying it's not
right no that's true but I'm just saying
it's it's not accurate when I hear
pro-israeli uh guests say well if they
just handed about the H it be over that
that it's not as simple as that it
wouldn't be over I'm saying it would
minimize civilian casualties of course
you want to eradicate Hamas because if
you don't October 7th will be December
7th will be February 7th etc etc my
issue is that
they they make sure Hamas makes sure to
maximize the civilian casualties and for
some reason the blame goes solely on the
IDF okay let me bring in Omar you'd be
waiting patiently Omar you know it seems
to me there's already now a split in the
Israeli War cabinet uh Benny gance has
resigned you know people view him as
more moderate than Netanyahu and benav
and smri and so on that there are other
you know very right-wing members of that
uh cabinet who not the war cabinet but
the more General government cabinet who
are pushing Netanyahu to uh a very bad
place they feel and I I sort of share
that view I don't know where this ends
and gance has made it clear he's
resigned because he doesn't see any end
game he doesn't understand what life is
going to be like at the end of this war
and that should worry all of us what is
your view of where we are with with this
split now in in the Israeli hierarchy
yeah that is precisely where we are
peers I mean gance split off because he
understands that there is significant
discontent with Netanyahu domestically
there's significant International
discontent with him including from the
United States and he's hoping to reap a
reward if that pressure eventually ramps
up to a point that actually pushes
Netanyahu out of power for him to be
there uh to basically replace him and
become the future leader but I just want
to emphasize the fact that we are
precisely here because Israel does not
want to end this war they've set
unrealistic goals they said that they're
going to continue this Onslaught until
Hamas is defeated militarily until they
freed all the hostages militarily and in
the meantime this Onslaught is killing
tens of thousands of innocent
Palestinians day in and day out and
because Israel can't achieve its goals
the idea that we just have to sit back
and and watch this horror continue
endlessly is completely ridiculous I
mean just I was listening to Emily speak
and all you have to do is just reverse
the scenario for just a moment peers
right now as you and I are speaking
thousands of Palestinians have been
kidnapped out of the Gaza strip and are
placed in Israeli detention centers
where they are undergoing daily torture
there's a piece in the New York Times
exploring the absolutely horrific
torture they're undergoing including
acts of sexual abuse that they are
enduring and right now and by the way
several dozen of them have died in
Israeli custody almost certainly due to
the abuse that they are enduring and if
you were to ask a question right now is
Hamas justified in invading Israel to
rescue four Palestinian detainees out of
the thousands that are held by Israel
and what kind of civilian cost would
that be worth imagine that scenario and
imagine that several hundred Israelis
were killed in the process how many
people would celebrate the release of
those
Palestinian it's a valid it's a valid
point but I would also ask you another
question which if we do flip all this
round and it had been the IDF who had
gone over the border on October the 7th
murdered in the most horrific barbaric
manner 1,200 Palestinians majority of
whom were completely innocent people
kidnapped over 200 and brought them back
into Israel and wounded nearly 7,000
more many of them
catastrophically are you really saying
that anyone on the Gaza Strip would have
wanted any limitation put on Hamas for
exacting
Revenge you are making an absolutely
incredible Point Piers because you don't
have to imagine that scenario back in
2014 when Israel initiated a military
operation operation against Gaza they
killed 2200 Palestinians including more
than 550 Palestinian children and that
does create a sentiment within Gaza of
people who want Vengeance and that's why
you see people some people react to
October 7th as saying what do you expect
after everything that Gaza has endured
at the hands of Israel and right now
we're putting our finger precisely on
the point is that if we want to compare
atrocities back and forth frankly I
don't think Israel fares very well
because there's no question that Hamas
has committed atrocities against
Israelis but Israel atrocities against
Palestinians have been far greater far
more frequent and extend over a much
longer per time and if we're serious
just just last Point Piers that is
really important if we're serious about
wanting to end these atrocities you have
to deal with the underlying problem and
the underlying problem is that Israel's
recipe for Palestinians says they are
not allowed to ever be free they must
live under siege and occupation forever
and if they don't like it they can
either leave or be subject to Israel's
brutal military operations and until
Israel start seeing Palestinians as
equal human beings who can live in
Freedom on their own land I don't think
this thing is going to end we're going
to beu in a moment just to get a quick
reaction to that from
Emily I actually agree with Omar to a
certain extent that if you go back and
forth and compare atrocities it'll be an
endless conversation because there's
plenty to go back and forth with I'd
also like to add talking about if you
flip the narrative let's say which thank
God Israel has the Iron Dome let's say
they hadn't how many civilian casualties
on a daily basis would Israel be facing
I also want to point out some serious
hypocrisy everyone's talking about why
can't we equivocate Palestinian lives to
Israeli lives and absolutely we should
why are Palestinian lives any less or
more valuable than an Israeli then how
come in every ceasefire exchange for
some reason they equivocate one Hostage
to 6,000 Palestinians who are arrested
for either alleged terrorism or valid
terrorism if you actually want equality
and fairness then let's address the fact
Palestinians live better lives often
it's not a ridiculous point thereal of
that changes how
many sorry there's I'm sorry that's a
complete Mis Mis that's that's a Mis
complete Mis misreading of the situation
the reason why there is a discrepancy in
the hostage exchanges is because there
is a huge disparity in power Israel can
just go into the Palestinian areas and
kidnap thousands upon thousands of
Palestinians who are held without charge
or trial if Hamas were capable of doing
something like that you probably would
see is to Target
civilians I just we're get we're getting
into the kind of tip Fort argument which
is one you both highlighted actually in
different ways and I don't want to
really this way let me ask Dave this
it's just breaking news now the United
Nations security Council on Monday has
adopted a US drafted resolution backing
a proposal outlined by President Joe
Biden for a ceasefire between Israel and
Palestinian militants Hamas in the Gaza
Strip I call them terrorists uh Russia
abstain from the vote the remaining 14
council members voted in favor and the
US finalized this text on Sunday after
six days of negotiations among the
council so a sort of significant move
there to support President Biden's way
to try and bring about a ceasefire but
it does again it does beg the question
what happens next I mean I don't think
there can be any future here that
involves Hamas having any power
whatsoever nor do I think that can any
future with Netanyahu in charge of
Israel and I'm not entirely sure given
the scale of what's been going on over
the last seven months dwarfing anything
really we've seen in many decades I I
don't know quite how we get to peace how
do we rebuild trust and get to some sort
of peace I mean you must have thought
about this a lot dve but we all have
what do you think well I mean look it
certainly seems like a daunting task and
it seems right now that we're about as
far from peace as we could possibly be I
think I may have said this uh to you
when when we were doing your show when
you were in New York uh couple months
back um but you know like uh last year I
went and did comedy shows in London and
then I flew over to Ireland and did
shows right there and you know you guys
are right next door to each other and
there was a time when it seemed like you
guys could never achieve peace you know
the truth is that as many pro- Israelis
like to brag about at uh Camp David in
the late 70s Israel did make a land uh
deal with Egypt a land for peace deal
and that peace stuck they went to war
four times in a little over 20 years and
they haven't been to war ever since and
so as bad as things do seem right now I
I do believe that there's a path where
there could be a deal made and there
could be a lasting pieace but the bottom
line is that what you have to understand
and I appreciate Emily's saying that
like there's been a lot of attrocities
on both sides I don't think anybody
would deny that and I don't think anyone
would deny that Hamas has some
responsibility for atrocities that
they've committed but the point is the
underlying fact that you can't get away
from here is that this is an
asymmetrical conflict Israel has
occupied Palestine since
1967 we're not talking about a few
months after a war or even a few years
after a war we're talking about longer
than the Soviet Union occupied Eastern
Europe and the idea that people say well
if Hamas just surrendered today the war
would be over like let's even say that's
true which I'm not convinced it is but
let's say that's true and then what live
in subjugation forever I mean look the
height of the Netanyahu
Doctrine was two weeks before October
7th when he went to the United Nations
with a map of Greater Israel including
Gaza and the West Bank all being Israel
that was the peak of the Netanyahu
Doctrine and what he was telling the
world and the Palestinians was it's over
you lost we won we made our deals with
the outside Arab world no one's coming
to save you you live in subjugation
forever and the culmination of of that
was October 7th and that's not to remove
responsibility from Hamas you canot
remove responsibility from Israel I'll
let Emily respond to
that I want to ask David um you you just
said Israel is occupied obviously hear
that narrative every day and I often
hear chance specifically here in
Manhattan we don't want two states we
want all of 48 when the UN came up with
the partition plan and nobody was happy
with that and they gave land not only to
Israel but Jordan too I just can't help
I can't help but to think why does
nobody criticize the occupation of
jordanians taking the land from the
Palestinians how come it's only anger
once it's the only Jewish state in the
entire world in the entire globe that
Suddenly It's occupation and also can
somebody enlighten me how we occupied
the land that never had a prime minister
never had a government never had a
currency never had one person with
historical ties to the land called
Palestine I just can't wrap my head
around this occupation narrative
let me see let me see if I can help so
the reason why people aren't currently
occupied about currently outraged about
Egypt occupying Gaza or Jordan occupying
the West Bank or something like that is
because it's been over since 1967 so
like yeah if you want to go back
historically there were bad things that
were done by lots of groups of people
however since then it's been the
Israelis doing the occupation that's not
a narrative that's just a description of
reality and as far as your point about
like um you know that there was never
currency or there was never an official
state of Palestine I as I've said before
I just find this to be the most
unamerican unenlightenment way of
looking at things I mean all you have to
do is read the just compar no it's not
no it is completely irrelevant and
here's why it's irrelevant read the
Declaration of Independence that's all
you need to do and it will completely
dispel you of that the Declaration of
Independence starts off right Middle
East let me say this let me no okay fine
it's not but these values send America
it's the idea of natural rights man is
Born Free because these are god-given
rights and governments are just
something we Institute to protect our
rights and if the government isn't doing
a good job of that then the people have
the right and maybe even the duty to
overthrow that government no offense
Pierce you guys you've you've had your
wins too but this one was ours um and so
I'm just saying no listen it doesn't
matter whether they were dominated by
the Ottomans or the British Empire or
Jordan or Egypt before then these are
human beings who deserve natural rights
and they have absolutely no rights under
Israeli Rule and haven't since 1967 due
to the Israelis what happened before
Palestinians actually have full rights
in but okay well I I tell you what em
Palestinians in pales hang on hang on
here's what I say about that it was very
clear very soon after October the 7th
when Israel was able to control food uh
energy water and things like that and
turn that typ of Supply on and off that
actually Palestinians do not have the
same free rights as Israelis otherwise
Israel wouldn't have had the ability to
do that now how much of the percentage
of that the water is Israel would put up
an argument about why why they do that
but you can't dispute that that was what
they were able to do Omar I want to
there's some more details coming out
about this well Omar just want to bring
you you up to speed real the details
coming out of this announcement um
they're talking about a full and
complete ceasefire the release of
hostages held by Hamas the return
deceased hostages remains and the
exchange of Palestinian Prisoners the
plan includes three phases that would
end with a multi-year reconstruction
plan for Gaza which has been largely
destroyed due to the fighting the second
phase includes a permanent end to
hostilities as well as full withdrawal
of Israeli forces from Gaza this is
according to a text of the US draft
resolution I mean first of all do you do
you welcome the broad brust Strokes of
that
statement certainly do appears I want to
address this directly but I just have to
go back to just one thing that Emily had
said uh because I think it's really
really important not to gloss over it
when we talk about Israel's occupation
of the Palestinian territories there's
when you look at settler colonialism in
the United States and the fact that
Native Americans were were pushed off of
their land nobody cares that Native
Americans did not have an officially
recognized government or what currency
they had or this or that these are
people who are living on their land who
are being pushed out by an occupying
force and that's all that matters and
what's unique about the Israeli
occupation of the the Palestinian
territories particularly in the West
Bank today is the fact that it's settler
Colonial expansion Palestinians are
being systematically pushed out of their
land and out of their homes so Israel
can build more and more settlements to
take over Palestinian areas and 80% of
water in the West Bank is taken to be
used by Israel and by the settlers this
is Palestinian water every Israeli
policy every inch of the West Bank that
Israel takes over by force every drop of
water that Israel takes is a violation
of international law these are war
crimes that Israel has committ so to
pretend to conflate all of that with
whatever historical examples there have
been of other occupations and not you're
missing the point that Israel is
actively replacing Palestinians with is
effort to Let's also get to the point of
this breaking news I also want to
address that America did not give the
land back I want Tove
listen but I want to talk about the
listen You' all had a good chance to
talk I want to talk about specifically
this proposal and whether you think this
is the kind of framework we need now to
get to peace and whether you believe
that anyone Affiliated to Hamas can have
any role in any kind of government in
Gaza going
forward sure starting with the with the
ceasefire I think it's quite obvious and
inevitable that a ceasefire is going to
be the only way out of the mess that
we're currently in unless people are
happy to just sit back and watch a
genocide unfold for year after year and
the only problem right now with the
ceasefire is whether there is a question
about whether we're going to move from a
temporary one to a permanent one and
what that negotiation in between uh
entails and the problem is that prime
minister Netanyahu has made it
absolutely clear that there will not be
a permanent ceasefire until Hamas is
completely defeated so he's insisting
effectively that there not there is not
going to be a ceasefire because he can't
defeat Hamas militarily and so the
slaughter is going to continue
indefinitely so to the extent that the
International Community and the United
States can apply meaningful pressure on
Israel and Netanyahu in particular to
say knock off this delusional fantasy
that you're going to have an epic Quinn
beyond the fact that you've completely
destroyed the Gaza Strip and killed
40,000 people enough is enough it's time
to put an end to this Onslaught and just
have an exchange of prisoners hostages
and move on with life as for the
question about Hamas whether Hamas can
have a role in the future or whether
Netanyahu can I don't think that's a
particularly important question I think
Israelis can sort out who leads them
people in Gaza can figure that out
what's important for us as a third party
sitting on the outside be it the United
States or the rest of the International
Community is to say that support for mil
for foreign military occupation should
not continue it is not our role to
decide who rules Palestinians or who
rules Israelis or who's in the
government and who's not it is our role
to say that as long as Israel continues
occupying Palestinian land besieging
Palestinians denying them their most
basic and fundamental rights Israel
should not receive another Penny of us
from the United States in military
funding and not another veto and all
this unconditional diplomatic support
that the US provides for Israel to do
whatever it wants violate international
law right without any consequence
conversely what about all the money that
Hamas has been receiving billions of
dollars a lot of it via is a lot of it
via Israel presumably by the same yard
stick you would like to see Zero funding
going into Hamas unquestionably
unquestionably human rights
organizations have been absolutely clear
about the fact that nobody should be
sending weapons either to Hamas or to
Israel and I agree with that entirely
fortunately I live in a country that
does not supply Hamas so it's very easy
for me to say stop us funding for Hamas
because it doesn't exist in the first
place what does exist is US funding for
the Israeli government and the monstrous
atrocities that they are committing day
in and day out and that's what we need
to have change and once that changes
once Israel no longer enjoys this
impunity that the US gives them they
will find themselves in a position where
they have to negotiate in good faith and
to recognize that Palestinians are an
equal human being who have to get their
fundamental rights that they are
entitled to every inch of Independence
and dignity and and basic human rights
that Israelis enjoy and until Israel
treats Palestinians differently we're
not going to have an end to this
conflict and that's what needs to change
uh thank you all very much that was a
great debate I really appreciate it
thank you
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