Ordinary Visionaries - Brad Withers

Summary

In this insightful interview, Brad Withers discusses the concept of being an 'ordinary Visionary,' emphasizing the innate ability of everyone to envision and work towards their future goals. He shares his personal journey from nearly purchasing a business to becoming a motivational speaker and corporate trainer. Brad highlights the importance of listening to oneself, adapting to change, and the power of asking questions to facilitate learning and growth. He also delves into the distinction between managers and leaders, advocating for a leadership style that empowers and encourages creativity, rather than controlling. The conversation touches on self-leadership, the challenges of being self-employed, and the significance of enjoying one's work and life.

Takeaways

• 👋 Brad Withers identifies as an 'ordinary Visionary', emphasizing that everyone has the ability to envision their future and work towards it, even if they don't have a 'Grand Vision' of life.
• 🔄 Brad's journey involved a shift from considering buying a business to becoming a motivational speaker, highlighting the importance of adaptability and following one's interests.
• 🗣️ The power of asking questions is a key theme in Brad's approach to facilitation, which encourages dialogue and the surfacing of insights from the audience rather than just delivering a prepared speech.
• 📈 Brad learned the importance of customization in his workshops, adapting the content based on the specific needs and interests of the participants, which is crucial for effective learning and engagement.
• 📚 The value of continuous learning is underscored by Brad's experience, where he emphasizes reading extensively on a topic to gain a deep understanding and develop discernment.
• 🎓 Brad's transition from using provided material to creating his own content reflects the evolution of his expertise and the importance of authenticity in teaching and leadership.
• 🛑 The interview discusses the challenges of maintaining relevance and adaptability, such as when Brad was let go for not using the prescribed PowerPoint and workbook, underscoring the need for innovation in one's approach.
• 🤝 The distinction between managers and leaders is a central point, with Brad defining managers as controllers focused on behavior and results, while leaders focus on changing mindsets and empowering individuals.
• 💡 Brad's mentorship experience and his own learning journey, such as learning to play the guitar, illustrate the concept of leadership and consciousness, and the importance of being open to new experiences.
• 🌐 The conversation touches on cultural differences in leadership and teamwork, as Brad's experience in South Korea taught him about the impact of hierarchy and collective action within a culture.
• 🔑 The final takeaway is about self-leadership, the importance of setting personal goals, being self-motivated, and the ability to self-reflect and adapt one's own path in life.

Q & A

What does Brad Withers consider himself to be in terms of vision and ordinary life?

Brad Withers considers himself an 'ordinary Visionary' because he believes everyone has the ability to envision their future and work towards achieving it, despite being ordinary individuals.

How did Brad Withers' journey begin in the motivational speaking and leadership training field?

Brad's journey began after a failed attempt to buy a small business. His mentor and backer advised him to start anew, which led him to motivational speaking and eventually to working with a seminar company.

What significant event happened during Brad's first week as a motivational speaker?

Brad's first week as a motivational speaker coincided with the 9/11 attacks, leading to a chaotic experience of being handed five different plane tickets due to flight cancellations.

How did Brad's mentor influence his approach to motivational speaking?

Brad's mentor helped him transition from the motivational side to a more facilitative approach, focusing on asking questions and engaging the audience's experiences rather than just delivering a prepared speech.

What was Brad's experience like working for a company that booked motivational speakers?

Brad worked with about 80 different speakers, learning various styles and gaining a wealth of experience. However, he eventually decided to focus solely on corporate work rather than hotel room presentations.

How did Brad's approach to material and teaching style evolve over time?

Brad moved away from using the outdated material provided by the seminar company to creating his own dialogue with people, focusing on interaction and learning from the audience rather than just teaching.

What is Brad's perspective on the difference between being a manager and being a leader?

Brad believes managers focus on control and telling people what to do, while leaders aim to change people's minds, encouraging them to think differently and take different actions.

How does Brad approach the issue of resistance to learning and self-improvement in his workshops?

Brad addresses resistance by asking participants what they want to get out of the workshop, adapting his approach to serve their needs and encouraging them to take ownership of their learning process.

What is Brad's view on the importance of self-leadership for individuals, especially those who are self-employed?

Brad emphasizes the importance of self-leadership, including setting goals, organizing time effectively, and being self-motivated, as crucial for individuals to move forward in their personal and professional development.

Can you provide an example of how Brad applies the concept of 'start, stop, continue, change, improve' in his workshops?

Brad starts his workshops with the 'start, stop, continue, change, improve' exercise to help participants identify actions they need to take to grow and develop, focusing on practical application rather than just theoretical knowledge.

What is Brad's approach to writing and editing his books, and how has it evolved?

Brad's approach to writing involves initially creating a lot of content, then going through multiple rounds of editing to refine and improve the material. He learned from the process of editing his first book, which made him a better writer for his subsequent works.

Outlines

00:00

👋 Introduction to the Ordinary Visionary

Brad Withers introduces himself as an 'ordinary visionary,' explaining that the term resonates with him because it suggests that everyone has the potential to envision and work towards their future goals. He discusses his journey, which includes a failed business venture and a transition into motivational speaking. Brad emphasizes the importance of listening to oneself and the role of inner propulsion in guiding one's path. He also shares a challenging experience from his early days as a speaker during the 9/11 crisis, highlighting his resilience and adaptability.

05:00

🎙️ Evolution of a Speaker and Learning from Experiences

The paragraph delves into Brad's development as a motivational speaker, his work with various speakers, and the realization that a one-size-fits-all approach is not effective. He talks about the importance of reading extensively on a topic to gain a deep understanding and the need to be discerning after reading five books on the subject. Brad also discusses his shift from using provided material to creating his own dialogues with audiences, which was a significant turning point in his career.

10:02

🛫 Adapting to Change and Embracing the Visionary Mindset

Brad discusses the importance of adapting to different groups and situations, emphasizing the need to be flexible and responsive to the audience's needs. He shares an anecdote about a workshop in a nuclear fuel facility, illustrating how he adjusted his approach based on the group's dynamics. The paragraph also touches on the idea of letting go of control and allowing the audience to guide the conversation, which is a key aspect of visionary leadership.

15:04

🎼 Exploring Creativity and Self-Discovery

In this paragraph, Brad talks about the process of self-discovery and the importance of understanding one's own style and capabilities. He shares his experience of learning to play the guitar as a way to explore his consciousness and leadership qualities. Brad also discusses the idea of being curious and exposing oneself to new experiences as a way to grow and develop as a visionary.

20:05

📚 The Power of Books and Interactive Learning

Brad reflects on his experience of writing books, emphasizing the importance of making them interactive and relevant to the reader's needs. He shares the process of writing his first two books and the insights he gained from the editing process. The paragraph also touches on the idea of creating a long-term program for leadership and consciousness, indicating Brad's commitment to continuous learning and development.

25:06

🤔 The Quest for Understanding Leadership

This paragraph focuses on Brad's exploration of leadership, particularly the difference between managers and leaders. He discusses the statistic that only 15% of people in charge think like leaders and expresses his desire to help more people adopt a leadership mindset. Brad also shares his thoughts on the distinction between managers, who control, and leaders, who inspire and empower.

30:11

🌐 Cultural Impacts on Leadership and Management

Brad explores the impact of culture on leadership and management styles, drawing from his experiences teaching in South Korea. He discusses the importance of understanding cultural differences and how they can influence team dynamics and the effectiveness of leadership approaches. The paragraph also touches on the idea of creating a culture that fosters creativity and empowerment.

35:11

💡 The Essence of Leadership and Its Impact on Success

In this paragraph, Brad contemplates the essential qualities of leadership that contribute to a company's success. He reflects on the importance of creating a culture that is not just efficient but also enjoyable for employees. Brad also discusses the concept of self-leadership and the need for individuals to be able to lead themselves effectively.

40:12

🚀 Final Thoughts on Becoming an Ordinary Visionary

The final paragraph wraps up the conversation with Brad sharing his wisdom on being an 'ordinary visionary.' He emphasizes the importance of listening to one's inner voice, asking questions, and being open to new ideas. Brad encourages embracing a visionary mindset and not being afraid to challenge the status quo, as this is where true innovation and leadership can emerge.

Keywords

💡Ordinary Visionary

The term 'Ordinary Visionary' is central to the video's theme, suggesting that anyone, regardless of their background, has the potential to envision and work towards a better future for themselves. It is used to describe Brad Withers himself, who sees his journey as one of personal growth and development, despite not having a 'Grand Vision' of life. The concept is introduced early in the transcript, setting the tone for the discussion on personal and professional development.

💡Motivational Speaker

A 'Motivational Speaker' is someone who inspires and motivates others through storytelling and speeches. Brad Withers transitioned into this role after an unsuccessful business venture, attending seminars, and eventually finding his path in motivational speaking. His experience as a motivational speaker is a significant part of his journey, which he discusses in the context of learning and adapting to different audiences.

💡Leadership

Leadership is a recurring concept in the video, referring to the ability to guide, influence, and inspire others towards achieving goals. Brad Withers discusses the difference between managers and leaders, emphasizing that leaders focus on empowering others and fostering creativity, while managers may be more concerned with control and specific outcomes. The transcript includes examples of how Withers has applied leadership principles in his workshops and seminars.

💡Facilitative

Being 'facilitative' in the context of the video means adopting a role that encourages others to explore, discover, and learn. Brad Withers mentions that a mentor helped him transition from a motivational speaker to a more facilitative approach, which involves asking questions and engaging with the audience to bring out their experiences and ideas. This approach is highlighted as a key lesson in his development as a speaker and leader.

💡Personal Development

Personal development is a key theme in the video, focusing on self-improvement and the ability to grow both personally and professionally. Brad Withers shares his experiences in learning from various sources, including books and seminars, and emphasizes the importance of continuous learning. The concept is illustrated through his journey of becoming a motivational speaker and his ongoing process of self-discovery and skill enhancement.

💡Cognitive Shift

A 'cognitive shift' refers to a change in one's way of thinking or understanding. In the video, Brad Withers discusses the idea that leaders undergo a cognitive shift, moving from a focus on control to a focus on empowering others. This shift is seen as a fundamental aspect of transitioning from a manager's mindset to a leader's mindset, allowing for a more inclusive and innovative approach to teamwork and goal achievement.

💡Resistance

Resistance in the video is discussed as a barrier to personal growth and change. Brad Withers talks about the resistance people face when trying to think for themselves or take on new challenges, such as public speaking or leadership roles. The concept is used to highlight the internal struggles one must overcome to embrace new ideas, take risks, and ultimately grow as an individual.

💡Creativity

Creativity is presented as an essential skill that everyone possesses but may need to develop further. Brad Withers shares his experience teaching creativity to engineers, emphasizing that creativity is not limited to the arts but is a pragmatic skill that can be applied in various fields. The video suggests that leaders recognize and encourage the creative potential within their teams.

💡Self-Leadership

Self-leadership is the concept of leading oneself, which includes setting personal goals, organizing one's time, and motivating oneself. Brad Withers touches on this concept when discussing the challenges of being self-employed and the importance of self-reflection and self-management. The idea is that before one can effectively lead others, they must first be able to lead themselves.

💡Empowering

To 'empower' in the video means to give others the authority and autonomy to make decisions and take action. Brad Withers contrasts this with the controlling nature of managing, suggesting that leaders who empower their teams allow for greater innovation and personal growth. The concept is used to illustrate the leader's role in creating an environment where team members can thrive and contribute to their fullest potential.

💡Manager vs. Leader

The distinction between a 'manager' and a 'leader' is a key point in the video. Managers are described as focusing on control, results, and behaviors, while leaders focus on talent, creativity, and empowering others. Brad Withers uses this contrast to highlight the different approaches to guiding a team and the impact each has on team dynamics and outcomes.

Highlights

Brad Withers discusses the concept of an 'ordinary Visionary' and how everyone has the ability to envision their future.

The importance of listening to oneself and the struggle to do so is highlighted as a part of being an ordinary Visionary.

Brad shares his personal journey, including his experience with motivational speaking and the impact of 9/11 on his career.

The value of learning from various speakers and adapting one's style is emphasized in the development of a speaking career.

The transition from motivational speaking to a more facilitative and question-driven approach in Brad's work.

Brad's mentor's influence in shifting his focus from motivation to facilitation and creating dialogues.

The significance of understanding one's personal style and strengths in leadership and public speaking.

The challenge of adjusting to different audiences and the importance of flexibility in training and workshops.

Brad's approach to leadership development, focusing on shifting from control to empowerment.

The distinction between managers, who control, and leaders, who inspire and seek to change people's minds.

The role of self-awareness and the ability to let go of control as key aspects of effective leadership.

Brad's experience in writing books as a means to solidify and share his knowledge on leadership and management.

The process of editing and refining one's work as a critical part of writing, which improves the quality of the final product.

The importance of self-leadership and the ability to manage oneself effectively in personal and professional development.

Brad's insights on the difference between self-leadership and leading others, and the challenges of being one's own boss.

The final advice from Brad on listening to one's inner voice, asking why, and embracing change to be an ordinary Visionary.

Transcripts

welcome Brad Withers to ordinary

Visionaries so the first question I ask

everybody is what makes you an ordinary

Visionary that is such a great question

um I've worked with um ordinary working

people managers and

leaders and this word Vision I think

scares some people they think they need

to have some Grand Vision of life and so

when you when I originally saw the

request I thought ordinary Visionary

that's a great way to put it we all have

the ability to see something for

ourselves in the

future part of that though is listening

to yourself uh which sometimes I strugg

have struggled with um but what makes me

an ordinary Visionary is that I have

been able to move myself forward uh see

the things that I want to achieve and

work towards them and and that's really

what it is is there are some things I've

done in my life that at the time I

didn't know why I was doing them but

something inside of me propelled me to

do them and and then later on it's like

oh that's what that's all

about so that that's kind of my

definition okay so tell us a bit about

your journey you know um and that can be

personal and professional you know like

most of the people I'm interviewing are

people I know are self-employed

professional

work with companies or

individuals and how did you get into

that I almost bought a very small

business uh had the money lined

up

and when I did my due

diligence uh it didn't come out clean if

you will it was nothing notorious and I

was working in the

business but my mentor and my money

backer said to me if you can find this

this easily there's something else going

on and you won't find out until it's too

late so I literally had to start all

over again brand new clean the slate and

I'd always loved motivational

speakers and so I thought well why don't

I try that and I went to the National

speaker Association Columbus meetings as

one guy said you know there's this

seminar company why don't you try it out

I literally had no idea I could do this

so I did the the test and went out to

Kansas City and they led me and all

those good things my first week out was

911 oh dear I walked around the White

House on the 12th of

September got home that week flying home

Friday night I was handed at least five

different tickets plane tickets in the

course of getting home I got home and

thought well if you can get through that

week the rest of it easy um what do you

mean you were handed five tickets they

did didn't know what plane to put me on

because they were cancelling them all so

fast oh I see right right it was it was

true chaos yeah it was it it just it was

chaos and

um being in DC made it even that much

more interesting and uh but again I got

home and I'm like all right if you can

deal with all that craziness you'll

figure this out and I had a wonderful

Mentor who changed totally how what I

she got me out of the motiv ational side

of it and she took me to what I call the

Dark Side of being much more

facilitative and asking questions and

realizing that you have experience in

the audience that you're never going to

touch because you know you want to tell

them what you want to tell them and but

if you ask them then they bring that out

and you have these incredible dialogues

um and and so that was a very early

first lesson um which I didn't expect to

learn at all because that was the path

of what I wanted to be on I wanted to be

I'd seen Brian Tracy a number of times

he's a wonderful public speaker it's

great he's very talented um Jim Ron is

my favorite and I've listened to these

guys I've listened to other tapes

they're wonderful at delivery and that's

only a piece of what I

do uh and Jim Ron I listen to more

personally you know you said there's a

mix of personal and business but you

know I was trying and struggling trying

to figure out um what to do with myself

I I have an MBA and I wasn't just

connecting and I didn't really want to

work for a big company necessarily so it

took some time to figure it

out within a few weeks I realized I

could do this job and I also realized

that there was a steep learning curve

and I spent the next eight 10 Years

Learning it just trying things and

reading and learning each topic unto its

own now were you were you working for a

company that that that booked

motivational speakers

yes so and they still exist

today a skill path and all right they

run people into at that time hotels now

they're doing most of their work online

and you you'd sign up for five cities um

my record was 11 flights from Sunday

night to Friday night and you'd run to

hotel to hotel to hotel but you learn an

incredible amount and I worked with

about 80 different speakers so you see a

lot of different styles and and I just

keep I'm a learner I just keep taking it

in I'm not sure why I'm learning it but

let's keep learning and learning and

learning and and finally I hit the point

where I said I just want companies just

do the corporate I don't want to do the

hotel room stuff anymore so was was the

material yours or it was someone else's

and you use their material or

combination thereof okay I have to be

tactful about how I say this let's just

say that the material that I was given

was very old and basic and some of it

whoever put it together really didn't

have a true knowledge of the topics so

one of the things I'll tell you is that

you have to read five books in any topic

if you want to learn about it you just

have to five I if you by the time you

read five what happens is you become

more Discerning with six through 10 you

may read more but you'll only get fewer

bits out of them because you're like

yeah yeah I know that I know that I know

that and then you you start to grow but

if you read five you you really have a

lot of the basics down right um and so

that's what I did now I was let

go because I didn't use their PowerPoint

and I no longer use the

workbook um I kind of laughed myself

when they let me go because I thought to

myself I haven't used the workbook in

about 17 years so that's okay um because

again I had changed what I do um we make

the workbook together and I create a

dialogue with

people and I I had no idea that that was

in me again you talk about ordinary

Visionaries I had no idea that's what I

was supposed to be doing but I got very

quickly that's and so I had to learn a

whole new way of doing this and a whole

new way of thinking had the platform

skills and that was very nice yeah I I

know what you're talking about I did a

lot of Workshop shops but every but it

was my material that of course I'd

learned in the course of business and

reading zillions of books right but uh

every time I did the workshop I changed

the workbook I mean every time right you

know Etc and it went on and on and on

and it kept on for for uh 39

years well doing various programs and

always I'm trying to find out what

anyway so it sounds like you were doing

that well one of the things my mentor

taught me

was your job as a leader is not to say

to people here's where you are and

here's where I'm going to take you which

is the format most used what you really

need to do is go out and find out where

they are and then find out where they

want to go and that's a whole different

process so yesterday I've done the same

class now 15 times for the Navy and this

was just a different group I did an

exercise that I don't normally do and I

threw one away because they just weren't

there it was just a different group and

I wanted to serve them um and we were

having very rich conversations and and

so that's part of it is yeah if you work

out of just one standard thing you're

only going to hit a portion of what

people are and I'll change what ex

exercise I start with in the morning or

case study or whatever it is that I'm

going to do based on because I asked

them the end of my opening is I flip it

over and ask them what they want to get

out of the day and that you know part of

the things about you know you talk about

being a Visionary but being somebody

that's at a higher level it freaked me

out the first couple times I did that

it's like how can you ask them what they

want I mean you were totally letting go

of control but that really is a

Visionary they have let go of control

and whater and comes to you um then

gives you a whole different power and

capability that you never had

before and and so that's that's

something you learn yeah yeah so you

discovered that a cookie cutter approach

doesn't serve people no and I will tell

you most adults after they've been to

one are kind of insulted by the second

time because it's like yeah yeah I've

heard this I know this right and and

literally they'll look at what page

number you are on and then look at their

watch like okay how many pages per hour

are we going through I mean you can just

see them calculating their mind you

totally lost them um but when you ask

people what you want I'll never forget I

was in a nuclear fuel facility outside

of Buffalo and it was a union atmosphere

the room I was in was like 55 degrees

everything was Dusty they weren't ready

and they're getting it all together and

I had to go through one of those long

safety videos and the guy's like so

what'd you get out of that and I'm like

all I got out of that was if something

goes off I'm following you he's like

great you got it so then we go into this

crazy room and one of the guys you can

just see is bubbling up he goes why are

managers idiots and I write on the flip

chart right in front of him and your

name Bob Bob and I said we're gonna talk

about this and by the end of the day and

I always go back over my list you know

if that's where they are and that's what

they want I got to know that if you

think you know where a group of people

who cold where they

are you know you're you're not the

expert uh so we're picking up again Brad

had a problem with this camera had to

switch cameras that's why it looks a bit

different so flow go with the flow right

yeah so so where were we we're talking

about uh you know adjusting to what is

needed right yeah right and you have to

find out what people where they are and

what they want um and and where they're

where they're really trying to go um and

that's that's what the work really is um

and you know but it's also it's also the

work that you have to do on yourself is

where are you where are you going what

are you good at what aren't you good at

right so

so so what you're saying is you came in

with a certain a certain kind of

training that you wanted to do which is

help with leadership skills or right

well I really came in wanting to be in a

motivational speaker which is a download

only kind of process right and what I

came to

find was that it wasn't really effective

don't get me wrong I love going to

listen to those folks speak yeah but in

the long run why people come to

you um and what they really want isn't

necessarily always addressed I had a guy

one day in an audience say to me so

you're the expert and I looked at him

and I said the only thing I'm an expert

on is myself he just kind of smiled like

okay we're going to get along just fine

you know um because sometimes the answer

is in within them and that's sure that's

part of what you help people see right

sure you know uh any topic you know

talked about marketing attracting

clients you're talking about leadership

but these are ridiculously big topics

you know there's so much there's so much

Nuance to it and uh you know my question

was always what do people sort of like

you're saying what do people really

need what do they you know but I don't

think I ever did a workshop where where

I

said we'll see what we cover what do you

need you know how retired I don't get to

do that Workshop but

uh well there were a couple of

times once I remember where literally

the client was like we we actually don't

want you to teach that today and we want

you to teach something totally different

and I remember calling back to the

company saying well they switched topics

on me and they had bought like a dozen

topics for the year yeah and and so I

said fine and just went out and and did

the other topic and the rep told me

later you said you're one of about three

people that could have done that that

most people they're so narrow in their

focus um that they don't see the other

you know the other topics at all and I

was determined there's an old joke in

the seminar business that there's only

one seminar and I have worked with

people who only did one thing one guy

who's a male model you've seen him on TV

um and he would talk about self-esteem

all day long people loved him and he was

great he was a male model he' get up in

the front and he'd take off his jacket

and loosen his tie the women loved it

and he's like you need to do this I'm

like yeah no not my stick not my style

and that you know part of being you talk

about it as a Visionary but part of it

is understanding who you are and what

your style is and what's inside of you

that you want to push out right I think

so many people want to be something

rather than

someone and it's learning who that

someone really is is inside and how do I

let them out

right you know there's a saying in the

training business I don't know if you've

heard this

but I heard it years ago they said

training is dip and

pray you dip people in the training and

you pray that something

happens and um yeah so I I only half

believe in that um part of it then for

me is ask them what they think they want

to be dipped in yeah right because I

think sometimes people don't know

or sometimes I find when you ask what do

you want to get out of today you get

different answers or just because

nobody's ever asked them before yeah and

so you get some really random questions

um I warn clients sometimes about 10% of

what they're going to ask me is not what

today is supposed to be about right

interesting yeah did you ever do any

long-term

programs a few yeah is uh you know at a

certain point in my career I decided to

do only action programs an action

program is we'll give you some

information then you apply it then you

do some homework then you get some

feedback then you you know do something

like that and the the the downside of

any kind of

training is you know it's a it's a half

a day or a day and you get some good

stuff but it's so easy to forget that

stuff you know how much stuff have we

forgotten

right um yeah so with the one day one of

the things I do is I start the day off

with start stop continue change improve

I want them I tell them I don't care

what you learn it's what you do yeah Bas

based on you know how you how you leave

today and that is the advantage of

having people come back over and over

and over um for my third book I've

written and published one the second one

is written I'm waiting for my Editor to

say okay send it to me and my third one

I'm going to look at leadership and

Consciousness and for that I will be

developing a longer program I've I'm I

took up the guitar and I am the most

least musical person you know when they

said what musical exposure do you have

can you play anything I put the radio

because that's

it and um so now I'm in my sixth week of

learning the guitar and it is a

fascinating process because I'm looking

how I'm using my Consciousness because

one of my things is that um leaders are

conscious of certain things that other

people aren't and they switch around a

lot right um and so I wanted to look for

words what does that really look like

act like sound like if you will so I

needed to do learn something totally new

that i' never learned before and it's

been a fascinating process of doing that

and I'm slowly writing a Blog on it as

well LinkedIn just just for fun yeah

about you're learning guitar I am

learning guitar yeah much to the dismay

of the guy's trying to instruct me but

no he's great actually he was a

traveling musician and Co shut him down

and so he's making most of his living

doing this now but he's been very

patient with me and I gave him my first

blog I printed out and gave it to him uh

and he said oh there's something in

there I didn't catch it at all I have I

literally have no rhythm whatsoever and

we talked about it today I just came

from class um that I my rhythm the

deepest I ever got was Kindergarten

knocking the

block and so I've never learned it and I

think it's something that can be learned

now I do I believe that there's some

people who deeply intuitively have it

absolutely but I think it's something

you can learn I mean your heart beats at

face and and so it's part about you know

let's go back to Visionary part of it is

about being

curious and and exposing yourself to

stuff to stretch yourself yeah yeah one

of the things I've always used in fact I

remember I said to this my minister at

church and ended up in a sermon a few

months later the group of people who

have the smallest vocabulary is what

group of people what population any idea

the people of the smallest vocabulary uh

give me some hints

um well I'll just tell you because it's

easier okay death row

inmates death row inmates death row

inmates have the smallest vocabulary of

any group of people and that makes total

sense because part of the reason they

act out is they literally don't have the

language and the vocabulary to express

their frustration and interact with the

world while enough great so this one uh

who has the greatest VOC

as a group of people or

population uh let me guess this time let

me see

writers no but these people do write a

lot

Consultants no nuclear

scientists because they're narrow I mean

they're wide but they're narrow I give

up U

CEOs

CEOs and again think about it they have

to deal with the accounting people the

Finance people the marketing people and

they need all of those vocabularies yeah

to work with it um is this something

that's in your

book no tell me about your book so the

first book literally I didn't want to

write and the second book I really

didn't want to write we'll talk about

that in a second so the first book um is

is I'll plug myself here um is called

getting unstuck at work okay I was

sitting on a plane one day and I do

before I ever ever do a day Jim Ron says

the day needs to be done before you ever

start and so I sit down and I was

thinking about what questions are these

people going to ask me and it occurred

to me there are only 10 questions I get

asked when I'm working with employees

and I wrote those questions and that was

the basis of my book explain negativity

to me what's this thing about

personalities how do I manage my time

better they're all there are many of the

basic topics the soft skills I've just

put them in one simple each one in a

simple here's the basic core thing that

you need to know and get about this and

the number one question is explain

negativity to me so I publish that book

and I did it as much for the exercise of

publishing it and then I wanted to go on

and write my leadership book and during

Co I wrote this long Dome and I'm like

okay ready to go at it and the voice

inside of me and this is to me

Robert everybody has this you have this

in voice for me it said no you need to

write another book I'm but I don't want

to write another book I wrote the book

I'm like no you need to write the one

for managers so it's the same thing what

are the questions managers

ask and when I finished the book I

realized my brain wanted me to do that

because it's you're going to write the

third

book the way you've written the first

two and not make it a textbook but make

it an interactive dialogue kind of book

and so the first two books are like I'm

in the seminar room and has flip chart

pages and all that that's really how I'm

going to do the third one the what I'd

written was a kind of a boring textbook

kind of thing with nice

diagrams but it just was too much

content and not enough concept and and

why um you know why the context of how

do I use it why do I need to know this

right so what's the What's the title of

the book um the first one's called

getting unstuck at work and um the other

two I haven't titled yet

um okay so the second one hasn't been

published yet no it's it's I'm waiting

for my editor who um is in this same

business it was really good to have

somebody who was in this business who

understood what I was trying to do um we

still argue about English and whatever

um he hates semicolons so in my comments

about him I put in a semicolon just to

tick him off um which he he loved he

just thought it was hilarious that I had

to do that um he wiped out every

semicolon in the book he's like yeah no

semicolon um but the pro and by the way

I think part of being a Visionary is

what you think you're going to be doing

is never what it ends up to be that's

the other thing I think if you're really

a Visionary at certain point you get I'm

going to have to totally adjust I'm

going to have to redo everything because

what I learned and you know this

probably better than anybody it's not

writing it's

editing the writing was easy the editing

was painful really and but but when I

wrote the second book the editing from

the first one made me a much better

writer and yeah and so that that was

super super helpful right um to be able

the the second one I banged out a lot

quicker and I think I edited it four

times the first one I edited seven

times um seven times well I I can relate

so Brad if you if you were to say here's

the gift that I want to give to the

world through my knowledge through my

contribution through my work through my

training what's that essential thing

that you want to help people with so the

third book and the this question this

statistic has bugged me for

years which

is 85% of the people who are in charge

of other people think like managers and

only 15% think like

leaders why why is that and how can I

help more people think like leaders

which is part of the reason I'm doing

the Consciousness piece of it what are

you really conscious of because I think

managers are conscious of one thing and

I think leaders are conscious of

another and that's the thing that's

compelling me to move forward so what's

the big distinction a manager does this

a leader does this what's that big

distinction that people are blind to so

my little tagline is managers

um tell people what to do um they tell

them they give them behaviors and they

want

control um

leaders um want to change people's minds

leaders want people to think differently

because then when people think

differently they'll take different

actions and and so that to me is the

distinction um your managers all about

controlling what's going on and and in

some cases to the point of micromanaging

and expecting people to behave in a

certain way the leader lets go of all

that

control and says I don't care here's

where we're going you figure out how to

get there and they release a lot of the

artistic ability in people and the

creativity some people don't have that

although having taught creativity

everybody has it in them in one form or

another I I always love teaching

creativity to Engineers because there's

always one old guy who comes up to me

and goes yeah I'm not creative good luck

kid and um invariably at the end of the

day they'd come up to me and go I am

creative I've never thought about it

that way right and and so I give them

the steps to creativity and I put them

through exercises but Engineers are very

pragmatic in their creativity that's

that's all it is it's just you know it

isn't painting paintings and uh so yeah

that's difference you know Brad one of

the things I found uh helping people

with or

marketing was uh not necessarily the

nuts and bolts of marketing so there's

nuts and bolts of whatever leadership

management

marketing brain surgery whatever but um

the issue was people's

resistance to uh thinking for themselves

being creative getting out there being

Fearless all the

stuff that is much harder to teach then

here's the Bas basics of things here's

how you do a newsletter here's how you

write a blog here's how whatever here's

how you sell right know here's the

script d da du and you know the the

thing that that I kept working on and

was often frustrated by is people's

unwillingness to make mistakes and make

a fool of themselves so is there some

kind of a parallel there for you in what

you're teaching um

um yes and no

um I think part of that you know is a

need for control and the ability to let

go of the

control um because leading people is

just asking them what do you want to get

out of this how can I help you how do I

support your behavior as opposed to no

you're doing this wrong this is what I

want right um and and I still struggle

with some of that you know is uh what am

I doing but I know it's interesting I

know exactly where I'm going right now

and so I know the pieces that I need to

do um part of that is being able to move

myself forward and you know having those

lists and being able to see what I need

to do um do you make mistakes yes but

you you kind of have to dust yourself

off and go beyond them um and that's

that's just part of the process and the

other thing is that if you don't believe

in it then you won't move forward um

part of the book and part of what I'm

doing is there are a couple more pieces

I need to really be able to Market this

leadership program the way I want and

you know it it isn't resistance it's

it's

self-preparation so that when I can go

into a room and work with people I know

how to take them somewhere because it's

a very different topic yeah there is

this internal internal resistance um if

you've have you ever read pressfield's

war of art yeah um I've listened to that

many many times and um it's just it's

gotten you know it has to kind of come

to your

core of working through that resistance

right right yeah I found that quite

quite an interesting

book his whole journey of writing and

doing the things he's done he's written

a lot of books about the military and

stuff like that anyway right yeah the

war of art High highly recommended yeah

so

um you know leadership is not a small

topic yet you know it's like everything

you can break it down to the basic

components you

know um what do people struggle with the

most when it comes to becoming a big

better leader and where do people fail

at this even though they try um

they fail the biggest thing is they fail

to shift in letting go of

control they see their job is to focus

on

results and training

people um whereas the leader focuses on

talent and they want to find out what's

inside other people people rather than

tell people this is what's I want you to

do this is what's inside of you this is

what I

expect um and part of that

includes the leader recognizes that they

may work with somebody who will end up

on their

shoulders and that doesn't bother them

the leader the manager is like no no no

I'm the top dog I'll always be the top

dog um which is why if you're an

interview and I want your job in five

years they may not exactly like you

because that you know they don't see

themselves going up necessarily and and

so it's that support piece of it

um is it's chard's book um set my I

think it's called set my people free but

that's what he kind of learned as the

Visionary is I just need to um set

people free I have a really simple

little diagram of it um that somebody

gave me work for Toyota and the first

little diagram is the high performer and

it's just chaos there are people running

around everywhere and then the leader is

the box and it's like a tight kite tail

going beyond that and then it kind of

starts to form a circle and by the time

you get to manager the manager is at the

center of the Hub and there's a circle

of people around them the leader then

moves to the edge they don't have to be

the center of attention anymore and they

want people to feel equal because when

people feel equal they will give a voice

and Fin the Visionary is actually

outside of it um as my mentor Marilyn

said they create the environment for

people to do their work um and that's

all they have to do and set them off

with the goals and the way they go um

it's so it's a whole different way of

thinking and the manager is always

playing this chess match trying to make

sure nobody outthinks them whereas the

leader's like no I want people to

outthink me right it's why Lincoln had

people who had different opinions around

him he wanted to hear this he didn't

want to wait until he lost the election

to find out well didn't you know you

wanted to hear hear right in the meeting

we think you're nuts and this is why and

then he could understand that and take

that in and

adjust yeah so um you know I think of

culture when it comes to

leadership you know we've got your basic

American Western culture you've got

European cultures and most know notably

Asian cultures I mean look at the

manufacturing prowess of Japan Korea and

and China for God's sake um China

doesn't necessarily create new stuff but

they sure are good at churning stuff

out so they're very good at copying

they're not very creative which is why

they always want to take our stuff

because they'll let us be creative and

then yeah and then you know just

recreate it I never understood the word

culture until I taught in South Korea

for a week um I did the same team

building exercise twice and it was chaos

and it's something here in the states

it's getting across a little river

exercise and um I remember flying home

going why why couldn't they do this so

with culture and it was so fascinating

if they very much have a pecking order

and what happened was there is no leader

selected for the exercise so nobody

collectively nobody knew how to do the

exercise so it was really fascinating

and that's when I got culture in my

brain um the other one was eating dinner

I was with a group of people I was

waiting for another group and uh we were

at a Chili's normally they took the

trainer out for a Korean meal but it was

very clear to them I'm an to eat where

you are kind of guy tried all kinds of

stuff already so they wanted it was on

an Airbase they wanted to go to chili

I'm like yeah sure go to chilies let's

go and I sat down and I'm kind of at the

corner because I'm trying to bridge the

gap with the next group that's coming in

and they all order and the first

hamburger comes and they all they all

dive in on it right then the next thing

comes and they all Fork a knife at it

and by then I'm sure I had a look at of

like if you touch my burger I'm G to

hurt

you and so the everybody ate whatever

came out it wasn't just yes so later it

was dim suum they all take little bits

of it now the my host leaned over to me

and said this is how we eat here kind of

like because I must have had a look on

my face I'm sure I did because I'm just

not processing what's happening in front

of me but it's just culture um and you

know leaders that's the other thing

um in my in my I teach the same model as

a system sing model there's four levels

events patterns systems and culture your

manager only thinks about the systems at

most sometimes they're still caught up

in the events whereas Your Leader is

really caught up in the culture how do I

create a culture of people to do what I

really want to do if they're really a

leader or a Visionary that's part of

where they spend their time thinking

about how what do we do to create this

culture in the organization right the

other thing that you know it's a a great

conversation because I you know I

haven't thought about a lot about

leadership because as a oneperson

business I'm just coaching individual

people and doing workshops and stuff but

uh obvious obviously you see really

really successful companies like an

apple or an IBM or you know whatever um

Microsoft you know some it wasn't just

the

technology that made them

successful technology was important I

suppose uh but it must have

been leadership characteristics that

they knew how to pass

on you know how how they how they got

there I don't know um but but it's

interesting

and you know

what what is that what is that essential

uh kernel of leadership in a company

that makes them successful or conversely

what's the thing thing that syns

them uh so for me and it was one of the

things that I really learned and i' say

I didn't say it yesterday but I say it

many times in groups I can kind of sense

groups where they are and what's going

on but many times I'll say it's not

about

me and I think a leader really thinks

that and believes that this is not about

me this is about us collectively and

where we're

going um managers it is about them it's

what they want and it's it's a very much

um a a shift so in in my researching

and going at this third book one of the

things that nobody in conventional

psychology I got this actually from drug

therapy it's called a cognitive shift

and I'm like that's what it is there is

this shift from one kind of

Consciousness to another because people

need to shift away from how they think

about their addiction to be able to

unwrap and that's all all I can really

say about that but it is a cognitive

shift and I just love that term I'm it's

a just a shift of thinking and leaders

have gotten themselves through that they

finally stood back and realized this

isn't you know it isn't about me when I

went to asking people and got

off my my mentor because we used

overhead slides she called me bullet

point

Brad and I had I had to wean myself off

off of that and when I gave the power

and control of the group they gave it

back to me in a whole different way and

that's what the leader understands I

don't want the power I want you to have

the power and then you're going to come

back and give it to me in a different

way and it's a whole different way of

engaging with people um and I've had

many times people come up to me and go

yeah that's my manager over there he's

been to every one of these and he says

he knows all the stuff but he's just a

manager he has never led us in anything

um just because you know the terms

doesn't really matter it's it's how you

you engage people and what you think

about so managers are control

freaks but uh but leader leaders are

empowers right yeah I know that's

simplifying things I know but yeah so

control freak sometimes is overstating

it but they're so focused on the goal

and getting people to be cogs in that

wheel they don't want any ideas they

have their way of accomplishing it and

achieving it even though people who are

doing it are doing it a totally

different way right and you know I

didn't had you so I don't use PowerPoint

and I but what I do use is what's called

a document camera and it's a little

video camera and sits right to the right

of me and I draw it up there and

get they're fantastic and you know I

people get a blank workbook and they

fill out the workbook with me because

it's repetition of learning and writing

and all that kind of stuff and that's

that's where the learning really really

comes from yeah and

um didn't like that no no and the irony

of it is I was an independent contractor

so technically I could do the job any

way I wanted and every day somebody put

on an evaluation thank you for not using

PowerPoint so you know I'm getting

feedback reinforcement of I'm doing what

I should really should be doing yeah um

well we've all heard of Death by

PowerPoint yeah yeah so I I get it yeah

the other thing that that this has got

me thinking of is a company that's

effective efficient whatever and then

also company that is happy you know some

people actually love going to work at a

certain

company and another company might make

money but they they might do really well

but it's not fun it's not enlivening

they don't love

it and uh what are your thoughts on that

in in relation to

leadership what what is it what does it

makes it fun to work for that guy and

and to be at that company and and do

what you do so over the years I've had

people come out especially at the public

seminars and say I've been in the

military and I want to understand this

whole other

world and um I also had another guy who

was a stock broker and the middle of the

morning and it was a management program

he goes but everybody's motivated by

money and I see half the audience just

just go no he didn't come back after

lunch because he just didn't understand

it you can pay people really

well and the company may be reaching its

goals but if you don't tell people that

hey we we hit our goal we hit our number

thank you for your help um because one

of the things I said is you're managing

emotional people not logical people and

you have to somehow touch people

emotionally um people want that we're

human beings it's part of who we are and

we want to feel success in in one way or

another and and so the the leader

understands that the

manager there's the old joke about the a

millionaire who hires this new kid and

he drives him up on the coast and he has

him looking out over the in this really

nice house and he goes son if you come

to work every day work really hard day

in day out work some weekends extra time

son someday all of this will be mine

and people feel like they're working for

that sometimes like I'm not benefiting

in any of this this is all about you the

leader's like no I want you to feel that

success because that's what makes it fun

yeah one of the things that we hear in

the news a lot these days is how much

CEOs are paid in relationship to the

employees they're not just paid five

times as much 10 times sometimes they're

paid I don't know hundred times as much

that

must I just can't understand it it it

seem it seems that in the corporate

world it's all about becoming Filthy

Rich you know who cares about the damn

employees and that that's not really

leadership well seems almost inevitable

it's like you can't you can't hire

someone you can't do anything other than

that these days right I

mean it's we're I think we're kind of

out of whack uh the top 100

Ohio um state employees the top 100

highest paid employees in the state of

Ohio are all sports coaches

it's just out of

whack there sports coaches that yes if

you listed the how people are paid in

the state of Ohio the top 100 highest

paid are all

coaches coaches for what college sports

in in college sports they're the highest

paid

people of course because there's media

and there's television and there's you

know TV rights and all that and then we

have you know I'm in Ohio so what's

Michigan paying their people we have to

pay them more because we got to beat

Michigan we've gotten into this whole

thing of this isn't about helping

student athletes be better athletes and

better students this is about some other

thing and and I'm not picking on my

because my sister went to the University

of Miami the University of Miami hockey

coach and and they have a very good

program so don't you know it's not that

this guy's a terrible coach uh but he's

paid

$425,000 a year that is a lot of money

to coach hockey players I it just is I

don't I just don't understand how we pay

somebody that much money to coach kids

wouldn't 150 be enough you know I don't

I just don't some of it it just makes no

sense to me well supply and demand to a

certain degree it's

like it's it's we create we've created

this whole subculture of paying people

all kinds of money like this yeah and it

you know is it what we're really meant

to do I don't know yeah so then in the

pecking order you have CEOs who make so

so much more and you know and yet our

minimum wage for the lowest workers who

are working their tail off they're at

the front lines doing the stuff or paid

the worst anyway we can't solve that in

this

conversation but the other the other

idea that popped into my mind and since

you we're both self-employed

professionals or you know I I that was

my thing for forever and so this concept

of self- leadership you know is leading

other people I never really LED other

people I taught other people but

I you

know okay for whatever reason and what

what are your thoughts about that what

is self leadership U let me start by

this by saying the fact that you taught

other people you've LED other people

yeah a good teacher is a leader yeah um

I'll take I I'll accept

that so as an individual um I do have to

lead myself I have to organize my time I

have to decide what my goals are I need

to go for those goals I need to at times

be able to say no to things um because

they're a waste of time or or they don't

help me really engage uh myself in the

best kind of way it's very hard being

your own manager Your Own Boss um

because nobody's going to fire you um

pressfield talks about how he has his

own staff meeting every Monday morning

with himself himself yeah and I don't

think that's a bad idea I've done that

sometimes I'm really sat down and said

okay what you know what's this week G to

be about what am I really trying to

achieve am I using my time well um

somebody's time management thing I've

told the people this is wear a stopwatch

on your neck for a day and see how much

time you actually spend spend week

working and you'll you'll be shocked at

how little time you actually spend

working working um and so you have to be

self-organized

self-motivated uh and move yourself

forward um and that's that's not easy

and on the other

hand um I see people being really too

hard on themselves in that oh I haven't

done that I haven't done that as opposed

to focusing on what I can do how can I

improve we're always beating ourselves

up about oh I'm not making as much money

as that guy all of that is toxic you

know yeah yeah you can't compare

yourself to somebody else if you're not

making what you

want um I actually I got introduced to

you through my

sister and um she sent me your your

workbook and CDs and then we've since

met um but she called me after a year

and a half she started a business to

coach people on how to negotiate better

raises and

pay and she just had a really really

hard time there just wasn't really a

demand for it and she called me up and

said would you be mad if I stopped doing

this I said no I'd be mad if you kept

doing it and you're not getting any

results she was like oh never thought

about it that way it just there really

wasn't a demand or a niche work she

dropped

I know she did everything she could do

it just wasn't there and so she went on

to something else um and so you do you

do have to have the feedback from the

world of of you know what you've been

doing yeah you have to be you know

realistic with that um and and so you

you kind of let me put it another way

you need to be able to look in the

mirror sometimes and that's really hard

to

do um and go okay this isn't going right

I need to do something else

yeah you know I noticed times in my

career

where um things weren't going that well

whatever and I had to really re-evaluate

you know what do I want to do what's my

purpose what's the direction what do I

want to accomplish uh what are my plans

you have to keep doing that you just

can't keep chugging along automatically

or you lose interest in what you do so I

was always changing things up and

creating new courses and writing new

stuff right so right well you take in

more information because you're you're

learning and you're

growing

yeah and even though I'm not making

money anymore I can't seem to

retire but which is which is great I'm

really having fun doing this you know

not not worrying about making money on

the podcast or the interviews just doing

them for

you know it's it's it's really great

yeah no that's a whole other topic I I

noticed some people have made more money

that I'm ever made are still working to

make more money and I sometimes wonder

why why are they but that's uh you know

it's a driver and motivation yeah

um I I I dated a woman who said to me a

long time ago I know some of the

wealthiest people here in Cleveland and

and she goes most of them really aren't

happy you know well of course not if

they only had a billion more yeah but

that doesn't that becomes something that

you never get to um yeah exactly i i w

was with a guy was helping him redo his

apartment and he finally got it all done

he was having this big party to have

everybody over and I got over there

early I think we needed to move some

furniture around or something in the

bartender he had he had known for years

and he said to him you know you're one

of the few people that actually enjoy

their own

parties and that for some people is they

just can't enjoy their own party and so

they just keep running like there's

something

more um and they just can't enjoy it

so yeah it it is it's it's a trick to

just stop once in a while and enjoy life

yeah so any final words of wisdom for

you you in terms of being a an ordinary

Visionary in life and the around the

whole leadership issue so a couple of

things one listen to your inner voice

sometimes you have to stop to do that I

am not a meditator and that kind of

thing but I do things do come to me and

you do have to listen to them and I'm a

good one for writing things down um that

are thoughts that have occurred to me

which helped me be a Creator as a

visionary

um keep asking

why and try and you know why is this

this way why isn't it that way uh

because that really helps you see how

things are organized or how they can be

organized better in the world and that's

really where people you know find a

problem and solve it that that's where

you really can have a Visionary ability

you know why do people do things the way

they do them and is there a better way

but also understand that when you do

something different you're going to get

a lot of people who are going to be like

oh you can't do it that way this is the

way it must be done uh and yet a lot of

Visionaries you know have come up with

new ideas because they're different and

Brian Tracy says it only needs to be 10%

new doesn't need to be

crazy you know just need a little you

want the Breakthrough of a Lifetime well

you're not Elon Musk not everybody can

do that no no

Brad thank you so much for taking the

time to have this conversation it was

really fun really interesting to hear

what you're up to and what you're

working on and yep your path of uh self-

leadership to train people to be leaders

exciting stuff appreciate it thank

you e