Is Apple's M2 Max Good for Machine Learning?
Summary
TLDRThe video discusses the release of Apple's M2 chips, focusing on whether they are worth purchasing. It recommends the M2 for Apple devotees needing mobility and large models, but suggests alternatives for others. Benchmarks show the M1 Max's performance, and the expected generational uplift for the M2 Max is compared to the Nvidia 3090. The video also explores the cost-effectiveness of Apple products versus comparable Windows and Linux options, highlighting the value of desktop systems for those not needing mobility.
Takeaways
- 🍏 The M2 chip is a powerful upgrade, but the decision to buy should be based on individual needs and preferences.
- 💼 For Apple devotees who require mobility and work with large models, the M2 chip could be a good investment.
- 🔋 The M1 Max's unified memory architecture is beneficial for those working with large models that demand substantial RAM.
- 📈 Benchmarks suggest the M1 Max offers about an eighth of the performance of a 3090 GPU, with the M2 expected to close this gap somewhat.
- 💰 The cost of a high-spec MacBook Pro with M2 Max can be significant, and there may be more cost-effective alternatives available.
- 🛠️ If mobility isn't a requirement, a desktop setup could offer better performance for the price.
- 🖥️ Non-Apple users needing mobility might consider Windows or Linux laptops with dedicated Nvidia GPUs for better performance.
- 📊 The M2 Max is expected to have a performance uplift of about 30-40% over the M1 Max, but still falls short of high-end desktop GPUs.
- 💡 The script laments the lack of unbiased benchmarks and the demise of trusted review sources, highlighting the difficulty in obtaining reliable performance data.
- 🛍️ The new Mac Mini with M2 Pro is not considered a great value outside of the Apple ecosystem, especially considering the lack of peripherals.
- 🔬 For those not tied to the Apple ecosystem, a desktop or a Windows laptop with a dedicated GPU may offer superior performance and value.
Q & A
What is the main topic of the video script?
-The main topic of the video script is an analysis of Apple's new M2 chip, discussing whether it's a worthwhile purchase and comparing its performance with other options.
Who is the target audience for the M2 chip according to the script?
-The target audience for the M2 chip includes Apple devotees who run large models and need mobility, and those who are convinced they want the chip regardless of the analysis.
What are the independent benchmarks mentioned in the script?
-The independent benchmarks mentioned in the script are from a user on GitHub, which the author uses due to the difficulty of finding unbiased benchmarks in the popular media.
Why does the script mention the M1 Max chip in the context of the M2 chip?
-The M1 Max chip is mentioned because its performance can be used to extrapolate the potential performance of the M2 Max chip, given the expected generational gains.
What is the significance of the unified memory architecture for users working with large models?
-The unified memory architecture is significant for users working with large models because it provides access to large amounts of memory (up to 21 GB), which is beneficial for such models and not commonly available in mobile GPUs.
How does the script compare the performance of the M1 Max chip to the Nvidia RTX 3090?
-The script compares the performance by stating that the M1 Max chip has an eighth of the performance of the RTX 3090 and consumes about the same amount of power for that speed gain.
What is the estimated performance improvement of the M2 Max over the M1 Max according to the script?
-The script estimates a performance improvement of around 30 to 50 percent for the M2 Max over the M1 Max, based on Apple's benchmarks and assumptions.
Why does the script suggest that the M2 chip might not be a great buy for some users?
-The script suggests that the M2 chip might not be a great buy for users who do not need the large unified memory, are not devoted to Apple, and do not require mobility, as there are more cost-effective and higher-performing alternatives available.
What alternative options are presented in the script for users who do not need the M2 chip's specific features?
-The script presents alternative options such as last-gen laptops with Nvidia GPUs, Windows or Linux laptops, and high-end desktop systems as more cost-effective and higher-performing alternatives.
What is the script's stance on the value of the new Mac Mini with the M2 Pro chip?
-The script's stance is that the new Mac Mini with the M2 Pro chip is not a great value for those outside the Apple ecosystem, as it lacks peripherals and offers less performance per dollar compared to building a custom system with a comparable GPU.
Outlines
🤖 M2 Chip Release and Target Audience
The video script discusses the release of Apple's new M2 chips and evaluates their potential purchase for different user types. It emphasizes that those deeply invested in Apple and requiring mobility for large models like Vision or language models will find the M2 chips a worthy investment. The script also hints at benchmark comparisons and expresses concerns about the availability of unbiased benchmarks in the media, citing the closure of trusted review sources.
💻 Performance Analysis and Alternatives to M2 Max
This paragraph delves into the performance of the M1 Max as a benchmark for the M2 Max, given the lack of direct M2 Max benchmarks. It discusses the performance of the M1 Max in handling large models and its unified memory advantage. The script compares the M1 Max's performance per watt to the Nvidia 3090 GPU, highlighting the trade-offs between performance and power efficiency. It also speculates on the M2 Max's potential performance improvements based on generational uplift and suggests that for those not needing the maximum memory capacity, other options might be more suitable.
💸 Cost Considerations and Non-Apple Alternatives
The script addresses the high cost of Apple products equipped with the M2 Max chip, particularly the 16-inch MacBook Pro, and compares it to other laptops with similar or better performance at a lower price point. It mentions a specific MSI laptop with an Nvidia GeForce 3080 GPU as a more cost-effective alternative. The speaker also touches on their personal preference for desktop computers over mobile ones, outlining a hypothetical high-end desktop build that offers superior performance for a similar price to the MacBook Pro with M2 Max.
🖥️ Desktop Superiority and the Future of GPU Technology
The final paragraph reinforces the idea that desktop computers offer better performance for the price, especially when one does not require the mobility or the ecosystem of Apple. It also mentions the imminent release of Nvidia's new Mobility chips for the 4000 series, suggesting that these will provide significant performance improvements over the M2 Max. The script concludes with a reminder that the choice of computer should be based on individual needs and preferences, and invites viewers to share their thoughts in the comments section.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡M2 Chip
💡Performance Benchmarks
💡Unified Memory
💡M1 Max
💡GPU (Graphics Processing Unit)
💡Nvidia
💡Machine Learning
💡Mobility
💡Apple Ecosystem
💡Desktop vs. Laptop
💡Value for Money
Highlights
Apple's new M2 chips are powerful, but the decision to buy depends on individual needs and preferences.
The M2 is an obvious purchase for Apple devotees who require mobility and work with large models.
For those not devoted to Apple or not needing mobility, the M2 may not be a necessary investment.
Benchmarks for the M1 Max are used to extrapolate the performance of the M2 Max, due to the lack of available M2 benchmarks.
The unified memory architecture of the M1 Max is beneficial for those working with large models requiring substantial memory.
The M1 Max offers performance comparable to an eighth of the NVIDIA 3090, with 8 times the power draw.
Apple's claimed 30-50% performance improvement in the M2 Max over the M1 Max is taken into consideration for comparison.
The M2 Max is estimated to be around 5 times the performance of the NVIDIA 3090, based on generational uplift.
For those needing 21GB of memory, the M2 Max is currently the only option in a mobile form factor.
Comparing the cost of a high-spec 16-inch MacBook Pro with the M2 Max to alternatives shows a significant price difference.
Non-Apple laptops with NVIDIA GPUs offer similar or better performance at a lower price point.
The MSI laptop with a GeForce 3080 and 16GB VRAM is suggested as a cost-effective alternative to the MacBook Pro.
Desktop computers offer superior performance and value for money compared to mobile options.
A high-end desktop setup is detailed, providing a comparison to the MacBook Pro in terms of specs and price.
NVIDIA's new Mobility chips for the 4000 series are mentioned as a significant upgrade over the M2 Max.
The Mac Mini with the M2 Pro is criticized for its lack of peripherals and poor performance-to-price ratio.
The video concludes with a recommendation for those not in the Apple ecosystem to consider Windows or Linux laptops for better performance.
The presenter emphasizes the importance of making an informed decision based on individual needs rather than brand loyalty.
Transcripts
so Apple has just released their new M2
chips and they appear to be quite
powerful now the question is would I buy
one and what do I think I should
recommend to you
first of all let's talk about who this
is an obvious purchase for so if you are
convinced you want this by all means buy
it I'm not here to talk you out of how
to spend your money that is up to you uh
second if you are an apple devotee who
runs large models large Vision or
language models and need Mobility as in
you have to pick up your work machine
and go to like a cafe or between home
and a workplace then by all means this
is actually a really good uh really good
investment for you it's not a bad
product by any means however if you are
someone who is not devoted to Apple or
you do not need Mobility or you do need
mobility and are not devoted to Apple I
don't think it's necessarily a great buy
I'm going to show you why in this video
so the first thing I want to take a look
at are some benchmarks for the M1 now we
don't have benchmarks for the M2 Max as
of yet but we do have some independent
benchmarks for the M1 Max now this is
from a user on GitHub and the reason I'm
using this you can take uh you can take
you can have some issues with this
that's valid but the reason I'm picking
this is because it's very difficult to
get unbiased benchmarks in the popular
media there were really only two sources
that I trusted for GPU benchmarks and
they were hard ocp and the tech report
both of which are now defunct hard ocp
no longer produces reviews and the tech
report is now a AI generated site that
was purchased by some internet
entrepreneur to make money with clicks
just total garbage total garbage is
quite a shame they shouldn't just shut
it down
but I digress it's very difficult to get
truly unbiased reviews uh from people
that are receiving Hardware uh due to
their relationships with the underlying
businesses so that's not you know where
I choose to draw benchmarks from this is
a benchmark by a normal person someone
like you or I that has access to both
the 3090 and the M1 Max
now the reason the M1 Max is relevant is
because we can extrapolate based upon
generational gains the performance of
the m to Max
so taking a look at some performance on
some basic models and I believe pytorch
on say resnet 50 they're getting a
performance a throughput of 140 images
per second consuming 21 gigabytes of RAM
now this is why of memory excuse me this
is why I said those that need access to
those that are working with large models
should consider this because the unified
memory is a benefit if you are working
with large models that require large
amounts of memory as of yet there are no
comparable gpus that are going to give
you access to more than 16 gigabytes of
vram in a mobile form factor so if you
need that then this is the only game in
town and the performance is pretty good
performance per watt is what I would
expect it to be so I don't think it's a
terrible purchase in that case but when
you compare it to the 3090 down here you
can see that it's 1100 images per second
now that's not surprising it's something
like what is that seven or eight times
eight times the performance and also
about eight times the power draw
slightly more so it's a little bit less
efficient for that speed gain so we know
that the M1 Max is about an eighth you
know the performance of a 30 90 and we
know that the generational uplift is
going to be something like between 30 to
40 percent so if you take a look at
um this article from Mac World it says
in Apple's benchmarks again I take those
with a grain of salt but for the
purposes of argumentation let's just
take them as is and give them a bonus
say they're sandbagging so it says M2
Max tells a 31 improvement over the M1
Max and DaVinci Resolve again that's not
that's not machine learning uh so I
don't know and uh says it's faster than
I9 MacBook Pro and some other tasks and
with rendering in Cinema 4D it's 30
faster with the M1 Max so 30 let's
assume for the sake argument round
numbers it's 50 faster in machine
learning tasks I don't know where that's
going to come from but let's just assume
it's you know 30 excuse me 50 faster
taking a look here this uh eight to one
then goes down to about five to one ish
approximately comparing the 39e to the
M2 Max in the same Benchmark so about 5x
of performance and I'm assuming
performance per watt is going to be
better so it's going to have the same
Peak power so it's going to get better
with respect to Performance per watt
okay all well and good so if you have a
use case for this if you need that 21
gigabytes of memory this is the only
game in town cool go buy it I don't have
a problem with that I'm not a zealot I'm
not you know I don't like mac products
for myself but I don't care if you buy
them
however where things get a little dicey
is if you take a look at other types of
models and I know that for what I do
here on this channel deep reinforcement
learning you don't need huge amounts of
vram you need like a go a gigabyte or so
for the models that we use uh maybe two
at most if you're running something
really really complex so about a
gigabyte of vram so pretty much any
modern GPU can handle that
but then you see stuff like 16 and
excuse me 13 and 14 gigabytes so
something that would comfortably fit in
the envelope of a 16 gigabyte GPU and
the performance you know varies from you
know seven to eight X or whatever so
it's significantly slower than the 3090
as you would expect even accounting for
the generational uplift with the M2 Max
Okay so
then that raises the question suppose
you don't need these huge models you
have a slightly less stringent
requirement on your vram on total memory
uh what should you get then now if
Mobility is a concern if you really need
Mobility but you're not devoted to Apple
and you don't need the really large
models then I would actually consider
something like
um a last gen laptop so looking here oh
and the other thing to consider is price
so
if you take a look at a reasonably
specked 16-inch MacBook Pro with the M2
Max
with 32 gigs of unified memory so enough
to comfortably fit the resnet model and
a terabyte of SSD storage you're looking
at a price of thirty five hundred
dollars now that is a significant chunk
of change if it makes you money it's a
solid investment again if you need it
you need it buy it and move on with your
life don't even lose sleep over it but
uh what you can do then is take a look
at some comparable products that are not
in the Mac ecosystem that will offer
similar performance so or better
performance because they're based on
Nvidia gpus so
a last gen laptop here so this MSI from
Newegg runs thirty four hundred dollars
uh it's got a one terabyte pcie so it's
a slightly faster SSD drive does that
really matter not so much it's not so
critical but it is faster and faster is
always better you do get the same amount
of RAM and this particular processor uh
is a couple Generations old but offers
16 threads as opposed to 12 cores now as
far as I can tell the apple chips don't
have simultaneous multi-threading so
when it says 12 core here it really
means 12 core it's not 12 core you know
times two for 24 threads it's just 12
core so you get 16 threads versus 12.
okay cool but then scrolling down to the
GPU this might be a little bit hard to
read
um the where did the GPU go it is down
here so it's a Radeon or excuse me a
GeForce 3080 with 16 gigabytes of vram
so it'll comfortably fit everything
except the resnet models and the 3080
laptop GPU is going to be around my by
my guest room is twice as fast as the M2
Max maybe two to three times because
it's going to be around 60 or so of the
uh 30 90. so it should be sufficiently
fast to be faster than the M2 Max uh
for the same sort of price envelope now
of course power efficiency will not be
as great on this because it's a
dedicated GPU so if power efficiency
really matters to you which I I don't
honestly think it does but if you want
to lie and say that it matters to you
then by all means buy the Apple product
um so for a few hundred dollars less you
get something that's going to be
nominally faster albeit based on Windows
I'm not really a fan of Windows I would
personally wipe the hard drive and put
Linux on it but that's just me
so then that raises the question okay so
if you are in the Apple fan base uh you
are dedicated to the Apple ecosystem you
love it and you need it by all means buy
it if you are not dedicated to the Apple
uh ecosystem uh but you do need Mobility
then perhaps a Windows laptop is
something to consider or better yet
Perhaps even a Linux laptop from a
company like system 76 or even Dell
would be something that would appeal to
you now if you don't need Mobility which
I don't you can see here I use a desktop
I'm in Camp desktop firmly I don't
really like mobile form factors I don't
think they do anything any better other
than be moved around and I don't want to
move a Computing device around you know
if I really want to do something I have
a phone otherwise I don't need mobility
in my Computing device however
what is the better option so I have
specked out a high-end desktop on NewEgg
this is using current prices as of
February 1st 2023 these may be lower or
higher in the future of course we have
just come out the other side of the
mining boom and GPU prices have finally
started normalized and lo and behold
I looked this morning could actually see
a an RTX 4090 for sale on NewEgg and in
stock
now probably by the time this video goes
live it'll be gone but I did find other
options for 50 to 100 more on other
websites so if you look around you can
purchase a 4019 if you live near a Micro
Center uh then you can just go pick one
up most of the time
but taking a look at what I have specked
out here you have a motherboard GPU CPU
Ram monitor fan case
um power supply and one terabyte nvme
SSD and it all comes out to thirty six
hundred dollars excluding tax of course
um so for about a hundred dollars more
you get a significantly better desktop
system than you do with the Apple now
you can install any operating system on
this
um you could if you were Intrepid enough
try to do a Hackintosh with it I don't
know I don't actually think that would
work for you but I've never tried it so
I don't know but it may be something to
consider uh I would run Linux or BSD or
if you really must then you can run
um you can run Windows on it of course
that's always an option just factor in a
little bit of money for the operating
system but the point here being you get
an AMD high-end CPU 16 core 32 threads
32 is oftentimes greater than 12. you
get 32 gigs of RAM a 24 gigabyte GP
which will run those resnet models you
get a high-end motherboard you get
um a decent monitor I didn't price out
the monitor too much that's you know up
to you what you want to spend on a
monitor but you get a high-end air
cooler and a very high-end case and
power supply and a significantly faster
SSD to boot so
foreign
you know for 3 600 bucks you get the top
of the line desktop that's going to last
for several years and that's the camp
I'm in personally oh one other copy it
is I don't necessarily endorse any one
of these specific Parts I've just thrown
these in here for pricing comparison uh
so you know if uh if you buy it and you
say hey this board sucks if the
motherboard sucks I didn't say go buy
this motherboard I just said it for 300
you get a you get an am5 motherboard or
your 7950x CPU uh
so other thing to consider though is
that
Nvidia is dropping their new Mobility
chips for the 4090s for the 4000 series
so the 40 uh 40 90 is on sale on Amazon
it's currently sold out
um but the price is 38.99 and this uh
will come with comparable specs 32
gigabytes of ddr5 RAM a two terabyte
nvme drive so pretty fast uh 17.3 inch
chassis so same size as the MacBook
basically
for a little bit more money and the 4090
Mobility is going to be significantly
faster than the M2 Max and pretty much
any task it will consume more power it's
a few hundred dollars more expensive but
if you can afford 3 500 you can probably
afford 3 900. now that's if you're
agnostic to which platform you want to
run on you know Mac versus Windows uh
and you need Mobility this is a great
option or you can save a few hundred
dollars get something that's last gen in
terms of GPU and a couple gens behind in
CPU which isn't as important given the
slow progression and Hardware
requirements for on the CPU front but
you still get more threads than you do
in the Apple case so I hope this was
helpful that's how I take a look oh
there is one other thing and this all
came about because someone in my slack
group so for my students on the neural
net Academy I run a slack group they
said hey what about the uh the new Mac
Mini with the M2 Pro and my gut reaction
was no it's not really that great and I
still I haven't really warmed up to it
after looking at any of this and the
reason is that again if you're not
within the Apple ecosystem you know you
don't have to have that for the price
it's really not that great of a bargain
right because you can buy
you know a 40 70 TI or you could buy a
3070 TI an old 3080 something like that
for seven eight hundred bucks and build
a system around that of comparable
quality and this is kind of the worst of
all worlds right because it's it doesn't
have any any peripherals you don't have
a monitor you don't have a mouse or
keyboard so it's not mobile unless
you're going to Lug around a monitor and
a mouse and keyboard in which case I I
don't know what you're doing that's not
really mobile
so it's not really mobile and if you
don't need something that isn't mobile
um then really the only reason to get it
is if you're in firmly in the Mac camp
in which case hey it's not a bad product
you know I'm not here to hate on Mac I
just don't think they provide very good
performance per dollar I'm not firmly
against Apple it's not something I
choose it's not an ecosystem I choose to
buy into it's it's antithetical to my
personal values you know the whole
Walled Garden stuff isn't for me but if
it's for you and you have done your
research and believe this to be right
for you then by all means buy it I'm not
going to sit here and Bash Apple Fans
because well that's a stupid thing to do
so I don't think the performance per
dollar is very good I think if you don't
need Mobility if you don't need large
models and you are not in the Apple
ecosystem then a desktop is going to be
a far better option if you do need
Mobility but don't need uh very large
models and are not married to the Apple
ecosystem then a Windows based laptop
with a dedicated Nvidia GPU is going to
be a significantly better performing
option in terms of absolute performance
though not performance per watt of
course that is all I have to say on that
in the coming days I'm going to make
another video on my thoughts around the
current state of what type of system to
buy this isn't like a system buying Guy
this is just my thoughts on the M2 Chip
uh any you know disagreements leave them
down below I suspect there will probably
be some I've done my best to not step on
anyone's toes here's so disagreements
comments questions suggestions leave
them in the comments down below and to
see more stuff like this hit that
subscribe button I'll see you in the
next video
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