Michael Levin: How would you test for consciousness?

Summary

In this conversation, the speaker delves into the relationship between consciousness and self-organization, exploring how life forms evolve from simple chemical origins to complex, conscious beings. They discuss the continuous self-assembly process that supports consciousness, focusing on how individual cells and biological systems align to form a unified whole. The conversation also examines the spectrum of consciousness, questioning where it begins and ends, and highlighting the potential for creating interfaces that connect diverse systems—biological, artificial, and hybrid. The speaker challenges the traditional understanding of consciousness, advocating for a more fluid, integrated approach to studying it.

Takeaways

• 😀 Self-organization in biological systems is key to understanding consciousness. Life starts as a simple cell and develops through complex processes of self-assembly into conscious beings.
• 😀 Consciousness is not created but emerges as an interface or pointer to a space containing active, high-agency patterns, which we recognize as minds of varying complexity.
• 😀 Consciousness should be seen as a continuum, not a binary state, and should be studied in terms of the kind and degree of consciousness, not just whether it exists.
• 😀 Systems like cells and molecular networks exhibit learning capacities and competencies even without brains, highlighting the potential for consciousness to emerge in diverse systems.
• 😀 The boundary of self—where one ends and the outside world begins—is not inherent but must be continuously derived by the system, as seen in the self-organizing processes of embryos.
• 😀 Unlike machines that rely on abstraction layers and error-correction codes, biological systems are made of unreliable substrates, requiring constant adjustments to maintain coherence.
• 😀 Consciousness can arise in both simple and complex systems, with unexpected competencies emerging in even the most basic algorithms, such as sorting algorithms, showing early signs of higher-level cognitive behaviors.
• 😀 The development of interfaces that connect humans to diverse systems, such as AI, biological entities, and simulations, is essential for understanding different forms of consciousness.
• 😀 Metacognitive capacities, like knowing one has a goal, are key points on the continuum toward consciousness, distinguishing systems that simply have goals from those that are aware of them.
• 😀 To study consciousness, we must develop interactive, rich interfaces that allow researchers to experience being part of a collective intelligence, incorporating diverse systems (biological, AI, computational).
• 😀 Even simple models of gene regulatory networks, when trained, demonstrate learning and the emergence of integrated information, suggesting that even early systems are on the path to more complex forms of cognition.

Q & A

What is the relationship between consciousness and self-organization?

Consciousness and self-organization are closely tied through the process of self-assembly. Conscious beings, starting as a single cell, must organize themselves to achieve a higher level of cognitive function. This self-organization involves coordinating individual parts with their own goals to work together toward the larger goal, which is central to consciousness.

How does self-organization play a role in consciousness?

Self-organization plays a critical role in consciousness by allowing individual cells and their networks to coordinate their activities toward a common goal. This is akin to a system of agents with their own goals but working together to create a higher-level cohesive organism. The continuous orchestration of these parts is necessary for consciousness to emerge.

What are the key features of self-organization that contribute to consciousness?

Key features of self-organization that contribute to consciousness include the need for cells to align their goals and actions, the inherent uncertainty in defining boundaries between the self and the outside world, and the necessity to continuously adapt and revise internal models of reality (confabulation) based on sensory inputs.

What does the concept of 'self' mean in terms of self-organization?

The concept of 'self' is not fixed but must be continuously estimated and derived. It involves a dynamic process where the individual must figure out where it ends and the external world begins. This boundary is fluid, as shown in biological phenomena like the development of embryos or even conditions like cancer, which result from failures in self-organizational processes.

How is the biological substrate of consciousness different from modern computing systems?

Unlike modern computing systems that rely on error-correcting codes and abstraction layers, biological systems are made of unreliable substrates, such as cells, which function without predefined error correction. Conscious beings must constantly reinterpret their memories and experiences to form a cohesive sense of self, a process not needed in artificial systems.

How does the study of consciousness relate to the study of interfaces?

The study of consciousness is closely related to understanding how interfaces between systems, such as biological and artificial systems, allow for the emergence of consciousness. These interfaces serve as entry points for consciousness to manifest, but the true nature of the consciousness itself is harder to discern and requires exploring how different systems' behaviors map to these interfaces.

What is the significance of understanding consciousness as a spectrum rather than a binary?

Understanding consciousness as a spectrum allows for a more nuanced view, where rather than categorizing something as conscious or not, we ask 'what kind of consciousness' and 'how much'. This approach recognizes that different systems may exhibit varying degrees and types of consciousness depending on their complexity and interaction with the environment.

Can self-organizing systems, even simple ones, exhibit consciousness?

Yes, even simple systems that self-organize, such as sorting algorithms or basic gene regulatory networks, can exhibit competencies that suggest the beginnings of consciousness. As these systems learn and integrate information, they develop more complex behaviors, raising questions about the threshold at which consciousness emerges.

What role do interfaces play in experiments to study consciousness?

In studying consciousness, interfaces play a crucial role in bridging the gap between different types of systems, including biological organisms, artificial intelligence, and other complex systems. Developing rich, diverse interfaces allows researchers to explore how collective intelligence arises and how consciousness might emerge from these interactions.

What type of experiments could be conducted to explore consciousness in self-organizing systems?

To explore consciousness in self-organizing systems, experiments could focus on developing interfaces that allow humans to experience being part of a collective intelligence system, whether biological, artificial, or hybrid. This would involve the use of AI, biohybrids, and other systems working together to simulate and study how different forms of consciousness emerge and interact.