Exposed: The Plot to Murder Dr Aafia - with Clive Stafford Smith

Summary

In this compelling interview, Clive Stafford Smith, a tireless human rights lawyer, discusses the harrowing case of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui, a Pakistani neuroscientist imprisoned in the U.S. on dubious terrorism charges. Smith details the alleged conspiracy against her, the fabricated evidence, and the inhumane treatment she endures in prison. He also outlines the urgent need for public support, legal assistance, and funding to help secure her release and justice.

Takeaways

• 📜 The script discusses the case of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui, a Pakistani neuroscientist imprisoned in the U.S., and the ongoing efforts for her release and justice.
• 💼 Clive Stafford Smith, an attorney and human rights activist, is working on Dr. Siddiqui's case, aiming to challenge her conviction and sentence in U.S. courts.
• 🔍 Clive has been gathering evidence and testimonies from Afghanistan to prove Dr. Siddiqui's innocence and the alleged torture she faced while in U.S. custody.
• 📖 The script mentions a letter-writing campaign to support Dr. Siddiqui, which has been successful in raising morale and showing solidarity.
• 🤝 Clive is seeking a prisoner swap between Dr. Siddiqui and another individual, potentially facilitated by political influence and high-profile Pakistani Americans.
• 🚫 The U.S. government has been accused of lying about Dr. Siddiqui's case, including her whereabouts and the circumstances of her arrest and alleged crimes.
• 🏥 There are concerns about Dr. Siddiqui's treatment in prison, including allegations of sexual assault and lack of medical care, which Clive is trying to address.
• 👨‍👧‍👦 The whereabouts and well-being of Dr. Siddiqui's children, particularly her youngest son who disappeared during her detention, remain unknown and are a point of distress.
• 🤔 The script raises questions about the U.S. and Pakistani governments' roles in Dr. Siddiqui's case and hints at a conspiracy against her.
• 🌏 Clive's experiences in Afghanistan show a contrast between the portrayal of the Taliban in the West and the actual conditions on the ground, suggesting a need for more nuanced engagement.
• 💡 The discussion highlights the importance of international pressure, media coverage, and public support in human rights cases like Dr. Siddiqui's.

Q & A

What is the main issue discussed in the transcript related to Dr. Aafia Siddiqui?

The main issue discussed is the incarceration of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui, a brilliant academic and mother, who is serving an 86-year sentence in the U.S. for an offense that seems barely credible. The discussion revolves around the alleged injustices and the conspiracy surrounding her case.

Why is Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's case considered an 'open wound'?

Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's case is considered an 'open wound' because it symbolizes the inhumanity and barbarism of U.S. foreign policy and the alleged secret prisons and ghost prisoners that stain the reputation of powerful states.

What happened to Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's children after her detention?

Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's children were separated from her. Her baby, Sulan, is presumed dead after being dropped on his head during their abduction. Mariam was taken to Kabul and forcibly adopted into a white American Christian family. Ahmed, an American citizen, was also taken to Kabul and put in prison at the age of six.

What is the significance of the letter writing project mentioned in the transcript?

The letter writing project was initiated to show support for Dr. Aafia Siddiqui by encouraging viewers to write letters of encouragement that would be delivered to her, helping to lift her spirits and show her that she is not forgotten.

What is the role of Clive Stafford Smith in Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's case?

Clive Stafford Smith is Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's lawyer, who has been working tirelessly to secure her release and improve her treatment. He has been involved in fact-finding missions to Afghanistan and is seeking to challenge her conviction and sentence in U.S. courts.

What is the alleged conspiracy regarding Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's arrest in 2008?

The alleged conspiracy suggests that there was a plan to kill Dr. Aafia Siddiqui and her son outside a mosque in 2008 by dressing the child in a jacket resembling a suicide vest and then shooting them, with the intention of planting evidence to implicate her in a terrorist plot.

What are the challenges faced by Clive Stafford Smith in seeking justice for Dr. Aafia Siddiqui?

The challenges include the U.S. government's denial of her being in U.S. custody, the difficulty in proving events that occurred in secretive places like Bagram, and the American system's difficulty in granting justice once a conviction has been established.

How has the treatment of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui in prison been described in the transcript?

The treatment of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui in prison has been described as awful, including instances of rape, sexual assault, and a lack of medical care and religious guidance.

What is the significance of the mention of the Taliban in the transcript?

The mention of the Taliban is significant as it highlights the current Afghan government's stance and treatment of individuals like Dr. Aafia Siddiqui. It also underscores the need for dialogue and understanding between the West and the Afghan government.

What actions are being taken to help improve Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's situation?

Actions being taken include raising funds for her legal case, seeking clemency, and attempting to engineer a prisoner swap between Dr. Aafia Siddiqui and another individual. Additionally, there are efforts to bring attention to her case through media and public support.

Outlines

00:00

📜 AIA's Ongoing Struggle for Justice

The paragraph discusses the case of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui, a Pakistani academic imprisoned in the U.S. for an alleged crime that is questioned by the speaker. It highlights the lack of credibility in the U.S. government's narrative and the challenges faced in seeking justice for Siddiqui. The speaker mentions the impact of Siddiqui's case on the perception of U.S. foreign policy and the importance of the case in exposing the inhumanity and barbarism associated with it. Additionally, the paragraph touches upon the efforts of Clive Stafford Smith, a lawyer who has been working on Siddiqui's case and other similar cases, including the release of prisoners from Guantanamo Bay.

05:02

👶 The Tragic Fate of Aafia Siddiqui's Children

This paragraph delves into the details of the abduction of Aafia Siddiqui and her children in Karachi in 2003. It describes the tragic fate of her youngest child, Sulan, who may have died from injuries sustained during the abduction. The experiences of her other children, Mariam and Ahmed, are also discussed, with Mariam being forcibly adopted by an American family and Ahmed being imprisoned in Kabul despite being an American citizen. The paragraph also touches on the allegations of torture that Siddiqui faced in U.S. custody and the ongoing efforts to prove her innocence.

10:07

🚨 Conspiracy and False Accusations Against Aafia Siddiqui

The narrative continues with an account of a conspiracy against Siddiqui, involving a plan to kill her and her son in a staged suicide bombing, with the intention of framing her as a terrorist. The paragraph describes how this plan was foiled and how Siddiqui was taken into custody instead. It also addresses the false accusations made against her by U.S. officials, including claims that she attempted to murder two U.S. officials in Afghanistan. The speaker provides evidence that contradicts these accusations, such as the lack of gunshot residue and the presence of bullet holes in the alleged crime scene.

15:08

🤝 Seeking International Support for Aafia Siddiqui

In this paragraph, the speaker discusses the international efforts to secure justice for Siddiqui, including the collection of letters from supporters and the raising of funds for her legal defense. The speaker also mentions the challenges faced due to the blacklisting of his nonprofit organization and the importance of continuing to advocate for Siddiqui's case. The paragraph emphasizes the need for public support and the impact it has on Siddiqui's morale and the overall case.

20:12

🏥 Aafia Siddiqui's Harsh Treatment in Prison

The focus of this paragraph is on the deplorable conditions and treatment Siddiqui has faced in prison. It details the lack of medical care, the absence of spiritual guidance, and the instances of sexual abuse that Siddiqui has allegedly suffered. The speaker calls for attention to these issues and the need for legal action to improve Siddiqui's situation and ensure her humane treatment.

25:15

🔍 Investigating Aafia Siddiqui's Case in Afghanistan

The speaker recounts his visits to Afghanistan to investigate Siddiqui's case, highlighting the discovery of a conspiracy to kill her and plant evidence to implicate her in a terrorist act. He describes meeting various witnesses and gathering statements that support Siddiqui's innocence. The paragraph also addresses the challenges of seeking justice in the U.S. legal system and the need for early intervention to prevent further injustice.

30:19

📜 Legal and Humanitarian Efforts for Aafia Siddiqui

This paragraph outlines the speaker's legal and humanitarian efforts to secure justice for Siddiqui. It discusses the intention to challenge her conviction and sentence in U.S. courts, the pursuit of clemency, and the possibility of a prisoner swap. The speaker also emphasizes the need for political influence and the support of Pakistani Americans to facilitate these efforts.

35:20

🌏 Bridging the West and Afghanistan Through Sports

The speaker shares his experiences in Afghanistan and the positive interactions he had with the local government and people. He discusses the potential for fostering civil society connections between the West and Afghanistan, particularly through sports like cricket. The paragraph highlights the importance of engaging with Afghanistan's people as human beings and the opportunities for cultural exchange and understanding.

40:22

📬 Engaging the Public in Aafia Siddiqui's Support

The paragraph calls upon the public to support Siddiqui through various means, including sending letters of encouragement, raising funds, and using their talents to assist in her case. The speaker emphasizes the need for legal help, media coverage, and the involvement of high net worth individuals to contribute to the cause.

45:23

🗣️ Challenging Prejudice and Seeking Dialogue

The final paragraph addresses the issue of prejudice and misunderstanding, particularly in the context of the West's perception of Afghanistan and the Taliban. The speaker encourages dialogue and understanding, rather than vilification, and highlights the importance of working together to improve the situation for Siddiqui and others in similar circumstances.

Keywords

💡Aafia Siddiqui

Aafia Siddiqui, also known as 'Lady al-Qaeda', is a central figure in the video script. She is a Pakistani neuroscientist who was convicted by a U.S. court for attempted murder. The script discusses her case, the controversy surrounding her treatment, and the efforts to seek justice for her. The term is used repeatedly throughout the transcript, highlighting her as a focal point of the discussion.

💡Guantanamo Bay

Guantanamo Bay is a U.S. military detention facility where many individuals have been held without trial, often under controversial conditions. In the script, it is mentioned that Clive Stafford Smith has helped secure the release of prisoners from Guantanamo, indicating the broader context of human rights abuses and the fight for justice in such detention centers.

💡Bagram

Bagram refers to Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan, which was a U.S. military base and detention center. The script mentions that Aafia Siddiqui was allegedly held and tortured at Bagram, emphasizing the harsh treatment she received and the secretive nature of such facilities.

💡Inhumanity

Inhumanity is a term used to describe actions or conditions that are cruel and devoid of human compassion. In the script, it is used to characterize the treatment of Aafia Siddiqui and to criticize U.S. foreign policy, suggesting a systemic lack of regard for human rights.

💡Legal Advocacy

Legal advocacy in the script refers to the efforts of Clive Stafford Smith and others to provide legal representation and fight for the rights of individuals like Aafia Siddiqui. The term is exemplified by the various legal actions and campaigns described in the transcript, aiming to challenge convictions and improve conditions for those detained.

💡Prisoner Swap

A prisoner swap is an agreement to exchange captives held by opposing parties. The script discusses the possibility of a prisoner swap involving Aafia Siddiqui and another individual, highlighting the complex negotiations and political maneuvering that can be involved in resolving such cases.

💡Torture

Torture is the act of inflicting physical or psychological pain on someone, often as a means of interrogation or punishment. The script alleges that Aafia Siddiqui was subjected to torture while in U.S. custody, underscoring the severe human rights violations she is said to have endured.

💡Blacklisting

Blacklisting refers to the act of unofficially denying access or opportunity to someone based on their beliefs or activities. In the script, it is mentioned that Clive Stafford Smith's nonprofit has been blacklisted for associating with 'dubious' people, reflecting the challenges faced by those advocating for controversial cases.

💡Rule of Law

The rule of law is the principle that all members of a society, including the government, are considered equally subject to the law's regulations. The script discusses the importance of adhering to the rule of law, particularly in the context of Western powers and their actions in the war on terror.

💡Human Rights Abuses

Human rights abuses refer to violations of the fundamental rights of individuals. The script frequently alludes to such abuses, particularly in the context of detention and treatment of prisoners like Aafia Siddiqui, emphasizing the need for advocacy and justice.

💡Fact-Finding Mission

A fact-finding mission is an investigation aimed at gathering information about a specific issue or event. The script mentions Clive Stafford Smith's fact-finding mission to Afghanistan, which was conducted to uncover the truth about Aafia Siddiqui's case and the circumstances surrounding her detention.

Highlights

The American government has been accused of lying about the case of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui for many years.

Dr. Aafia Siddiqui's incarceration is seen as a symbol of the inhumanity and barbarism of US foreign policy.

Clive Stafford Smith, a lawyer, has been working to secure the release of prisoners from Guantanamo Bay and to hold Western powers accountable to the rule of law.

A letter-writing campaign was successful in sending messages of support to Dr. Siddiqui, which had a positive impact on her morale.

Fundraising efforts for Dr. Siddiqui's legal case have been met with generosity, despite repercussions for the non-profit involved.

Dr. Siddiqui's case involves allegations of abduction, torture, and a conspiracy surrounding her ordeal, including the mysterious death of her infant son.

Witnesses have come forward with compelling evidence that contradicts the US government's narrative about Dr. Siddiqui's time in custody.

There are claims of a conspiracy to kill Dr. Siddiqui and frame her as a suicide bomber, which was thwarted by a local tailor named Muhammad Azal.

The US government's case against Dr. Siddiqui is criticized for its lack of evidence, including the absence of gunshot residue and shell casings.

Efforts are being made to challenge Dr. Siddiqui's conviction and sentence in US courts, as well as to seek clemency.

A potential prisoner swap involving Dr. Siddiqui and a man named Afia, who helped the Americans kill Bin Laden, is being explored.

Dr. Siddiqui's treatment in prison has been harsh, with allegations of rape and sexual assault, and a lack of medical and spiritual care.

The importance of media attention and public support in bringing about justice and improving conditions for Dr. Siddiqui is emphasized.

Clive Stafford Smith's experiences in Afghanistan show a disconnect between Western perceptions and the reality on the ground.

The need for civil society connections and cultural exchanges, such as cricket matches, to foster understanding between Afghanistan and the West is suggested.

The transcript calls for a multifaceted approach to help Dr. Siddiqui, including legal assistance, funding, and public support.

Transcripts

apparently you know the the thinking Muslim  audience of dubious people who I shouldn't  

associate with so this is very compelling and  there's a lot of other Witnesses coming forward  

on this the American government has just lied  about that for the last many years the only  

reason that didn't happen was I met a guy in  gazy called Muhammad since we last spoke you've  

been to Afghanistan and you've pieced together  some of the missing parts in in this case it's  

a real challenge to get Justice in America what  is it about AIA that subjects her in particular  

to such awful treatment how do the Taliban treats  you you know if you believe that you believe in

santaa the case of AIA sadiki remains an  open wound for all of us it symbolizes the  

inhumanity and barbarism of US foreign policy  the incarceration of This brilliant academic and  

mother of free has become a marker of its excesses  of which there are many she languishes in prison  

serving an 86-year sentence for an offense that  looks barely credible the attempted murder of  

two US officials in Afghanistan in 2008 her  whereabouts before that date has been hotly  

contested but her lawyers and activists have  patched together the conspiracy surrounding Dr  

Aria's ordeal sadly the welfare of her younger son  suan who has not been seen since her detention in  

2003 remains unknown he's presumed dead the last  time I spoke to Dr Aria's lawyer Clive Stafford  

Smith he had returned from her prison in Forth  Worth Texas where she had been reunited with  

her sister FIA for the first time in 20 years if  you haven't watched that program I would highly  

recommend you do so to give you the backstory to  this horrific case plive has just returned from a  

fact-f finding mission to Afghanistan and he has  some considerable updates on aia's case Clive has  

helped secure the release of 86 prisoners from  Guantanamo Bay and still acts for the remaining  

numbers since the early days of the war on terror  he has worked tirelessly to force the Americans  

and other Western powers to adhere to the rule of  law he has sought to uncover the secret prisons  

and ghost prisoners that stain the reputation  of powerful states Who present their Wars in  

benevolent terms Clive Stafford Smith welcome back  to the thinking Muslim it's great to have you here  

with us well it's a great pleasure to be here and  I must say your last last program was very good  

and I've got so many nice messages from so many  nice people so thank you on our last program you  

requested a letter writing um project I suppose  for our viewers where uh you requested that they  

write in letters that you would take uh because  of legal Powers You' be able to take to to AIA  

mean how successful was that did that work well it  was fabulous actually I I got a lot in what I do  

is people send me emails and I just cut and paste  them into a letter from me um and I sent her one  

letter which was about 60 pages so probably 200 pe  people's letters fantastic and I got that into her  

and she really was thrilled uh because people  say such awful things to her and there she was  

with this massive letter from me and she just got  to read them back and I have another 72 Pages now  

but please don't let let that slow you down uh you  I'll give you my better and newer email this time  

if you don't mind broadcasting it yeah and the  more people send me the better I'll put that email  

in the show notes and we'll we'll make sure we'll  send a request out to our viewers to to send that  

how about um the last time we spoke also you were  raising funds for the legal cover for her case I  

mean how how's how's that going are you have we  well again actually people were very generous to  

support the the costs of the case yeah um it has  had a certain repercussion on my nonprofit that  

I've now been blacklisted apparently you know  the the thinking Muslim audience of dubious  

people who I shouldn't associate with I'm proud  to associate with you and I'm going to litigate  

my black listing in due course there's just a pain  in the neck you know it's just one of these stupid  

things they've been doing it for years yeah and  it's no joy but um we're get around it fantastic  

now Clyde many of my viewers may not have seen may  not have watched the original show where you went  

into great detail about aia's case from the very  beginning when she was abducted in 2003 to today  

where she languishes in an American prison uh do  you mind just giving us a quick summary of Aria's  

case uh for for for our new viewers sure let me  just hit the highlights or low lights yeah what  

sets off here aside from all the other people  I've represented over the last 20 plus years  

is that on March the 30th 2003 she was abducted  in Karachi with her three children so she had  

six-month-old sulan three-year-old Mariam and  six-year-old Ahmed um and they were all seized  

as they were driving to the airport and she was  just going to Islamabad from Karachi and uh it  

appears that when they were seizing the four of  them they dropped the baby on its head and that  

may have killed the baby and I always thought that  must be the truth until I learned what happened to  

the others so Mariam was taken from Karachi  to Kabul where she was forcibly adopted into  

a white American Christian family on the bizarre  presumption that being a white Christian American  

was somehow Superior to being a um Pakistani  Muslim of color just crazy crazy crazy but  

at least you know there those mad people who have  that belief yeah um and it had happened in another  

case since then but with Ahmed the thing I just  can't understand on any level is both Mariam and  

ammed were American citizens and Ahmed was taken  to Kabul where age six he was put in a prison wow  

now I just can't fathom that there's not even the  sort of crazy rationale that there was with Mariam  

and I've met with people in cabal to to prove  that and that's coming along it's difficult to  

prove what was going on in these secretive places  but I've got a lot of good help on that then afia  

was taken to um Afghanistan herself where she was  tortured for five years taken by by the US so the  

US had paid a bounty for Aria $55,000 yes uh which  was happening to a lot of people at the time but  

not to any other women in a high-profile case the  US government has denied all along that she was  

in US custody that is risible but but we have to  prove it sometimes we have to prove the sun rises  

every morning yeah um in this case I have managed  to prove it it's been great in Afghanistan I met  

a guy called Salim cuche who was just a lovely guy  he means Nomad his name and he was clearly someone  

who disobeyed all the American rules when he was  in custody himself in backround yeah he was up  

in isolation in the cells on the second floor uh  and she was AIA was in the cell next door and he  

got to be able to communicate to her yeah so  he was the one who first heard about this uh  

and then while I was sitting talking to Saleem  in the Intercontinental Hotel in uh in cabal I  

don't want you to think it's terribly Grand it's  not it was Grand in 1960 been not since then yeah  

I B I like the people there and I was sitting  there and the governor of pania comes by and  

really nice guy speaks good English and came to  say hello he then turns to Saleem and says oh I  

haven't seen you since Bagram and it turns out  that Saleem came downstairs to the cage they  

were being held in and told the governor about  AIA being upstairs the governor and others then  

told those four guys who escaped from Bagram who  then recorded the video about it back in 2005 so  

this is very compelling and there's a lot of other  Witnesses coming forward on this how did they know  

was it was AIA in Vel well but she said so she  was you know she only spoke English in heru but  

they could communicate yeah um and so that's very  important because the American government has just  

lied about that for the last many years yeah and  they've lied to everyone they haven't just lied  

to you know the Pakistani people they've lied to  their own prosecutors in their trial they lied to  

the judge they lied to the jury so that's very  important then the other thing is so she's then  

let out of Bagram when they finally discover that  she's really not a nuclear bomb maker um they let  

her out but what we've discovered is this by then  her sister FIA who is a fabulous woman who uh has  

a you know she's a neurologist she's incredibly  well educated if I ever get in trouble I want FIA  

to be my sister because she's been great uh she  had stirred up so much publicity for afia and the  

kids by 2008 that this was a huge embarrassment  yeah mainly to the Pakistan government the  

Americans honestly wouldn't care yeah why an  embarrassment to the Pak because they they were  

the ones who sold so it was President masari's  people who sold her and he was still in power at  

the time so so it it seems clear I'm not going to  name names on your program but um I think I've now  

able to prove that there was conspiracy to make  sure that afier and Ahmed were killed right and  

the way it was planned was this she was put on  a bus from cabul to GNE she was told she could  

have her daughter Mariam back if she went to gazy  and sat outside this mosque she was given this boy  

who you know she'd been tortured for 5 years she  wasn't sure if it was Ahmed or not it was Ahmed  

but Ahmed had been threatened for 5 years that if  he ever said he was Ahmed um sadiki uh they would  

kill him so even he wouldn't tell his mom that  it was him but they're on a bus together going to  

gazy to get the daughter in theory but that's not  what's going to happen right this is all designed  

for her to be killed as a suicide bomber they've  dressed the child up in a jacket with four big  

Pockets with big bits of fruit in it yeah it's  July the 17th 2008 it's the middle of summer  

he doesn't need a jacket yeah but the jacket  is obviously designed to look like some sort  

of suicide jacket she's in a full shador so you  can't see what's on underneath yeah someone has  

called in uh a call to say that the suicide bomb  is sitting outside the mosque and then all the  

cops show up with their AK-47s and they're just  going to shoot him the only reason that didn't  

happen was I met a guy in gazy called Muhammad  azal Muhammed just delightful guy he was a tailor  

right across the street from the um mosque yes and  he'd seen this woman sitting there she was there  

for S hours or so right and he'd seen her there  people had gone up and tried to talk to her but  

she only spoke heru and they all spoke you know  FY or whatever yeah and so he went out in the  

end and he spoke do because he had been a tailor  during his trade around Pakistan and he talks to  

her and says you know it's getting dark it's a war  zone you really shouldn't be out here you could  

go stay with my mother or whatever yeah that's  when the police show up and when they're going  

to shoot her this man stands between her and the  guns and says you got it all wrong um and I have  

so much respect for that guy he saved Alia's life  so they don't shoot her they take her into custody  

they then take her to the police headquarters now  this is where it all gets very interesting they  

say the Americans say that she was being held at  the Afghan National Police Headquarters yeah when  

they came and one they came into the room where  she was behind a curtain and one of the the uh  

soldiers put his M4 rifle on the ground you know  if you believe that you believe in Santa CLS but  

yes at any rate she supposed ly snatches up the  in Rifle and starts shooting at them as if she'd  

know where the safety catch do you know where the  safety catch is on no you're not a great terrorist  

there so neither do I by the way I do now because  I went and checked one out um but they say she was  

trying to shoot two Americans it's total nonsense  there's no gunshot residue on her her fingerprints  

are knocked on the gun there's no gunshot residue  on the curtain they say there are two bullet holes  

in the wall but we checked that out and actually  there's a video of the wall earlier in the day and  

the two holes are up there there's no bullets  in the wall there's no shell casings there's  

no nothing so that's a lie yeah what really  happened was that she was in that room behind  

the curtain hears American voices and thinks oh  my goodness they're going to take me back to to  

Bagram she Peaks around the curtain one of them  sees her and says she's on the loose and shoots  

her the had just been another incident where  um where a soldier had been accused of killing  

someone without justification and had been put on  a criminal trial yeah so they're all very paranoid  

about that so they make up the story but she was  meant to be dead and they were going to plant this  

evidence on her and I always thought that was  probably true but I didn't have any proof I do  

now yeah um because they say that she had on her  a bag with some proof about nuclear weapons Pro  

biological weapons well I met the police officer  who wrote an inventory of what was in her bag  

when she was arrested yeah and his inventory says  women's clothing no mention of you know all this  

other stuff um but we now have and and also the  Americans said in her trial that the governor of  

gazy brought all the material of nuclear weapons  and so forth and showed it to the Americans and  

gave it to them which which I always thought was  pretty weird but you don't do that in a criminal  

case I met the governor of gazy he gave me a sworn  statement saying this is nonsense the guy who says  

it I don't even know who he is I didn't have any  of the evidence but now we've also got evidence  

of another person who was on the bus with AIA with  a bag which clearly contained all of that material  

and what was going to happen was they were going  to shoot AIA and her son they were then going to  

plant this material on her and then the story in  the Pakistan media would have been evil Al-Qaeda  

woman going to blow herself up with her son yeah  what an evil person you know she was killed that  

was what was meant to happen when you say they uh  are we talking about the Americans we're talking  

about pakistanis the Afghan government at the time  who are we talking about the Afghan government  

had nothing to do with it no I'm not going to  name who it is because they know who they are  

I know who they are yeah but part of this is about  convincing the people behind this that if they'll  

just go along with us getting Justice for AIA no  one needs to know about it okay uh who they are  

but on the other hand if they don't I'm going to  have to disclose it yes and I should say I just  

want to make this very clear that there are people  in Pakistan to this day who are threatening the  

family of AIA including her sister her children  you it's not going to do do you any good I'm  

representing AIA right it's not what I do is not  their fault um those people again I'm not naming  

them abducted um aia's sister not long ago and  put a hood over her head to try to convince her  

that she should stop trying to get Justice for her  sister recently this Hasen Rec this was recently  

really um I'm not here again to speak for FIA I  have great respect for that woman but I've told  

her and I want to tell everyone else that I'm  aia's lawyer I'm not fia's lawyer yeah so what  

what I do is not fia's fault yeah if they want to  abduct someone they can abduct Me I don't really  

care I'm old enough that I've had a good life but  um but they shouldn't be doing that to the family  

that's just very wrong yeah so so let me get the  the picture so since we last spoke you've been to  

Afghanistan and you've pieced together uh some of  the missing parts in in this case so you what the  

big Discovery you've made is uh there's a couple  of discoveries but it seems to me that uh you're  

convinced that there was a conspiracy to kill  Aria in 2008 outside that mosque MH um and they  

would plant evidence on her in order to implicate  her in some sort of suicide mission and and then  

the narrative would be sown that Aria was part  of his greater uh terrorist conspiracy um uh  

how convinced are you of the uh plausibility of  people like Muhammed and and others that you've  

met Muhammed is absolutely telling the truth and  you know I should say I've got a lot of statements  

from a lot of people I've been I've been there  twice now and I'm going to go back again in late  

April yeah um and it's not just the people I'm  mentioning to you I've got statements from a  

number of other people there were six people who  witnessed what happened six people got statements  

from there probably more what happened outside the  mosque there's 200 people who were in The Police  

Headquarters who witnessed all of that wow um and  then there were many many people in Bagram and the  

other places so we'll have a lot of evidence  we've already got a lot yeah but um there are  

problems for in the American system if you don't  get Justice early on in the US system it's quite  

hard to get it I'm going to America in two days to  bring back the the wife of one of my clients who  

was sentenced to death wow 38 years ago yeah I've  proven exactly who did it I've got a judge at one  

point issued order saying that he was innocent but  that's not enough to set him free in the American  

system yeah U and his wife who's 84 I'm going to  go pick her up and bring her back to come and live  

with me my wife endorse it because she's just  been through enough so it's a real challenge to  

get Justice in America yes but we will and but  we've also got to look at the broader picture  

which is how to get better treatment for Aria in  the meantime so let's uh we'll come to Aria's Uh  

current situation where she is now in in Forth  Worth in in in Texas but just so that I understand  

uh what you're piecing together here well actually  why are you peace investigat what's the ultimate  

end are you trying to seek redress in the courts  for for Aria based on the statements that you're  

compiling well there are various things that  we need to do one is I want to challenge her  

conviction and her sentence in the US courts  in the US courts in the southern district of  

New York the judge was a guy called judge Burman  um and he was lied to and he imposed this 86y old  

886e sentence yeah on the premise that Aria was  wandering around as an Al-Qaeda terrorist for  

five years where we can now prove that know she  was being tortured in US custody yeah right now  

as things stand she is facing more time in prison  than HED shik Muhammad yeah who is in Guantanamo  

and as I'm sure you know is accused of being the  person behind 911 now you know the chances are  

that he won't do as much time as as AIA because  he's getting mitigation on his sentence because  

it's now conceded that the Americans tortured him  yeah and so the same should clearly happen to Aria  

even if they don't accept that she's innocent as  they should do she should get Mitigation Of Her  

sentence because of what she's been through and  I think everyone including halik Muhammad would  

agree that she's been through worse than he has  yeah because of her children and what happened  

to them so that's that's one line I'm going to go  back to Course in New York to do that but then at  

the same time I'm aim aiming towards clemency as  well Biden is up for reelection on November the  

5th yes um on November the 6th we'll know if  it's President Biden or president Trump yeah  

my bet is it'll be president Trump that means  that Biden has 10 weeks between then and Trump  

taking office in January the 21st yeah and in  those 10 weeks he can do justice and we need  

to get through to him through people I know but  also through high-powered Pakistani Americans  

uh in order to get the message across that they  should settle this and and I think I mentioned to  

you before and it's still my goal to engineer a  prisoner swap between her and Shaquille AF Frei  

who was the guy who helped the Americans kill Bin  Laden the Americans want him the Pakistani well  

at least 98% of the pakistanis want afia so if we  can engineer that swap in November that'll be good  

and have you made any progress in engineering  but swap between the two well I've met with  

some congressmen and Senators staffers um to try  to set that in motion and we've got this really  

great judge in Islamabad who's been ordering the  Pakistan Ministry of Foreign Affairs to basically  

do their job and help me yeah and so they are now  working with me to try and get political influence  

in America to to engineer that swap I hope we  can do it it's a lot of work but there we go um  

earlier on you mentioned that she's been treated  far more harshly than most guanimo daines like KH  

shik Muhammad why like what is it about AIA that  subjects her in particular to such awful treatment  

in the hands of the Americans I mean look there  was a time when Guantanamo would rank as one of  

the worst prisons in the world um I brought the  very first case against grantan in 2002 yeah um  

and over the last 22 years we forced the United  States to treat people much better in Guantanamo  

and while it's not a Caribbean holiday Camp I mean  it is my holiday Camp I've been there 42 times um  

but I love going there because I like to meet the  people but it's a much better place in many ways  

uh than the prison that she's in really because  FMC Carwell there's just no over sight of it there  

have been 13 guards convicted of raping prisoners  in in cell in the last few years and afia has been  

on the receiving end of both rapes and sexual  assaults and I've brought a um complaint to  

the Bureau of Prisons which they're investigating  about what's happened to AIA but that's on top and  

it happens all the time it happens routinely uh  and that's on top of being in prison she's being  

abused in prison all the time so we've got to stop  that uh and that's quite a challenge so why has  

this been allowed to continue for so long you know  she's been in prison since 2008 and um you said it  

you suggested last time and you've confirmed  it here again that she's been treated awfully  

in prison like what's what's allowed that to  continue for so long a big part of it is there's  

no spotlights um you know it is the spotlight of  attention that gets people to to behave in these  

that does work the attention I mean it works  somewhat I mean they're still horrible places  

yeah but the reason all of this sexual abuse goes  on is no one's challenging it and they they they  

annoyed me one time I was I've been to see her  eight times now yes and um one time they made me  

wait for an hour and I was annoyed because I had  better things to do than sit them and so I looked  

through their visitation log and they had only  had four legal visits for almost 1,000 prisoners  

976 prisoners yeah four legal visits since I'd  last been there wow at that rate each prisoner  

is going to have one legal visit every 80 years  and this is why people get away with doing such  

bad stuff as you give people power they tend to  abuse it and it's really important to have um you  

know people like me there to say no you can't do  that yeah and so it's a real challenge they they  

have no Imam in the whole prison there's no one  to be there as her spiritual guidance or whatever  

yeah they don't have any doctors who can see her  because you know she's a conservative Muslim woman  

she's not going to just you know undergo strip  searches all the time so she's getting no medical  

care she's getting no um religious Solace uh so  we got to force those issues but it's shocking  

to me that they haven't been forced long ago  when we last spoke you you had just returned  

from a visit where FIA her sister for the first  time had uh been able to meet her in in in in in  

at that prison um and uh I think I remember you  suggested that that had really helped felia state  

to aier state of mind I mean what is a general  state of mind since then well thousand was there  

it was rather sweet I I was there for the whole of  the meetings just to make sure it happened and um  

but I buted out and just let these two sisters  talk and they ended up singing nursery rhymes  

that they used to sing on the school playground  and that was great it was at some level very  

traumatic for both of them for FIA because she was  seeing her wonderful intelligent younger sister  

treated that way for AIA because she was seeing  her sister for the first time in 20 years and a  

is sort of Frozen in Time right when she thinks of  her children she thinks of them at age 6 months 3  

years and six years uh and it's very difficult  for her to think otherwise because she's had  

all of this trauma yeah um so we I got FIA to go  another time we went again in December and this  

was a bit of a disaster I mean the first time I  flew to Dubai and flew with her into America and  

so everything went smoothly I thought would sort  of potty train the US government a bit so she was  

safe to go by herself no she was stopped at the  airport and forced to sit there for 4 hours while  

they determined whether she was a terrorist or  not then when we got to the prison the first day  

I took her in and I was just going to leave her  there to meet with her sister and you you just  

don't know whether to laugh or cry they couldn't  find the key to the visitation room in the prison  

you know can you imagine being in a prison they  can't find a key yeah so her whole visit was  

cancelled having come you know 13,000 kilometers  um I managed to get her in a couple of other times  

for for meetings at a cost of you know I couldn't  see AIA for those times um but it's just a mess  

and FIA was very upset by the whole thing and so  we've been litigating to force the US to treat  

her better next time so I hope to take her back  you know sometime over the summer because I think  

it's very good for everyone great um and um you've  been to Afghanistan now on a couple of occasions  

on your fact finding Mission you're trying to find  out about the detail of aia's arrest and and the  

horrific things that happened there at Bagram and  elsewhere um I suppose my my question about your  

visit to Afghanistan is it's obviously a chang  place since the Americans left um did you have  

any worries or do you have any worries about your  security when you arrived and how did the Taliban  

treat you for example look I've lived in America  I don't have any concerns about Afghanistan I mean  

it look I went to Afghanistan on another Afghan  prisoner from guantanamo's case back in 2017  

yeah and it was horrible it was you couldn't do  anything this is dur the American now it's fine  

I and it was interesting I we should do a whole  program on Afghanistan at some point because it  

was very very eye open the government were great  they half of them have been in Guantanamo so they  

really understand what this is about which is more  than you can say for the British government or  

the Americans um the security is absolutely fine  they were really nice to me and um they insisted  

I should have security along with me but totally  unnecessary in fact I told the security guy I said  

look I'm going to Texas next week I need you  to come there not here um the there's a real  

disconnect between Afghanistan and the west and  one thing actually I wanted to try to help them  

on is get American lawyers to represent them  because for example there's 8 billion dollars  

of Afghan money Frozen by the Americans for the  American victims of the Afghan war well I think  

there's a lot more Afghan victims of the Afghan  war um but the current Afghan government I think  

doesn't understand how to deal with the West in  that way yeah and I had interesting conversations  

about what the perception is in the west and  yeah you look at Britain or you look at America  

there's only one perception which is the Taliban  are a bunch of maniacs and they treat women badly  

and so forth um I don't disagree that we need to  treat women um better than I think are currently  

or in a different way should we say than is  currently happening in Afghanistan I'm all in  

favor of women's education and obviously and  there are plenty of people in Afghanistan who  

would agree with that but what we're doing in the  west is we're so vilifying the people in Authority  

there that we're not having a discussion in the  same language and it's very interesting to hear  

the side of some of the people I talked to there  because I I would say you know wasn't trying to  

rubbish them for not having women's education  that's not terribly persuasive but I was saying  

you know there are views in the west and and  one of them said well you know we have similar  

views about the West we think the West treats poor  people incredibly badly in a capitalist system we  

think that whole system's mad well I tend to agree  with them frankly um so you know there's just a  

disconnect and we need to start looking for points  of agreement and so the points of disagreement  

and we need to help the Afghan government they're  they're doing okay economically they're given all  

the sanctions they're doing better than Pakistan  but we need to help reintegrate them into the  

world society instead of just sanctioning them and  telling all of them they're evil I me you've been  

to Afghanistan is there a space to Foster some  form of Civil Society connections between say  

British people and and and oh huge opportunity I  was I was planning I don't think I'll get it done  

this time but I was planning on taking a cricket  team out there oh yeah oh they're mad about  

Cricket I love this I'm mad about Cricket right  and everywhere you go I was there in you know when  

was it February it was minus33 degrees and they  were playing Cricket everywhere in the snow I mean  

I admire that um and I think it's really important  for us to reach out one of my Guantanamo Clin was  

the founder of the Afghan Cricket Association  right and yeah they've had cricket teams men's  

and women's and they're great and they beat  England in the world cup so I think there are  

ways that we can really reach out to people as  human beings and then let everyone come and see  

the Afghanistan that I saw and then engage engage  in ways that'll make things better for everyone so  

back to uh Dr apia's case now um uh as you know  our viewers are more than ready to help uh you  

in any way they can and I think the majority  of Muslims that I speak to and actually wider  

non-muslims who care about this case majority of  us really don't know where to help how to help um  

uh can you summarize what help you still require  legally funding wise what help you require and and  

how can be ordinary I know you you you contested  that term the last time we met but how can the  

ordinary person help you and help AIA make a  difference here like dare say I would say that  

everyone has talents that makes them extraordinary  and I can I can abuse anyone's talents that that'  

be great now look there are basically three or  four areas first please do continue to send her  

letters of encouragement and make them detailed  don't make them one line make them why you're  

inspired by what she's gone through because that  really helps her and it really helps her to know  

that people on the outside know who she is care  about her and and liiz her I mean I think that's  

really good for her yeah second she did she  know that before she had no idea she thought  

she was totally forgotten really and so that's  fabulous and uh and I think of all the things  

I've achieved thus far that's probably number  one in my view yeah um the second issue is that  

um we do need help we need particular help in  reaching the the echelons of power in America  

and in Pakistan yeah to convince them to go ahead  with a swap come November or something like that  

or at least to show compassion we need um I need  some help goodness knows I mean I've currently  

being blacklisted by these funding organizations  for representing AIA because they think there's  

something criminal about going to Afghanistan  um that's annoying and you know I'm going to  

America and I'm going to hire an investigator for  example yeah who has experience in areas that I  

can't reach you know he was actually a soldier  in Afghanistan in Bagram at the time of all of  

this he knows all of those people uh I need that  help it's going to cost $20,000 um so so I need  

to raise some funds for that um right now it's  difficult because I can't do a crowdfunding um  

but you know look I got PayPal on my website if  anyone wants to donate I'd be very grateful but  

if there is a high net worth individual who  wants to cover some or all of that cost how  

do they reach out to you oh well then just give  them my email I'll be glad to tell them what my  

charity my nonprofit um bank account is I'd be  very grateful yeah but uh I don't want people  

to think that that's going to stand between me and  getting the job done I'm going to do it regardless  

yes um then we need experts um I need legal help  from lawyers in America because I've this is much  

bigger than than I'd thought and it's much bigger  than I standing alone can handle in the sense  

that we need to sue the prison to make the prison  behave better we need to sue them to get the imms  

in to get the doctors in we need to do all sorts  of what I would view as collateral litigation to  

improve her situation I need you know preferably  people who are really committed who are sort of  

Pakistan American lawyers or from Big firms who  can help me do that sort of litigation I can do  

all the regular stuff that I'm used to yeah in  terms of um litigating her conviction and sentence  

in New York yeah um so all of that help is useful  I need doctors where do they have to be situated  

in in the US in ideally Texas but Washington and  New York work too and you know I've worked for  

my entire career with pro bono law firms yes who  have massive resources and who are able to help  

me outgun the government so that we can get some  some justice for her so you know that sort of help  

would be incredibly helpful okay and so on and  so forth there's really no limit right you were  

about to say there's another um sorry I I cut you  short there was something else you were about to  

say well I mean look there are things like what  you're doing and I'm grateful to you for doing  

this program because we need media coverage um I'm  gonna take a film crew to Afghanistan next time  

because we need to get coverage out there uh to  begin to put some pressure on particularly still  

the reticent parts of the Pakistan um High command  because there's people there who won't talk to  

me I wish they would who are trying to thwart our  efforts to get off your home and I just I got this  

message for them it's the same message I've always  given to governments for my Guantanamo clients I  

want to work with you to make this work out well  um and we'll give credit to the people who help  

get her out and everything will be good if that  doesn't happen I've only got one option which  

is to expose the torture that she went through  and who was behind it I don't want to do that it  

doesn't achieve anything for anyone but I need the  people who are paranoid about that to to cooperate  

because otherwise we can't get a hunt I suppose  one reason why they continue to incarcerate us  

is she would be a problem for them if she was  outside talking I mean how how do you square that  

so that's easy I mean she's not going to be she  is so traumatized yeah look look at her son and  

daughter who are home and have been for years yeah  those kids they're getting on with their life and  

I have great admiration for them but they won't  talk about what happened because partly because  

they're intimidated but partly because they're  just totally traumatized now our fear is so  

traumatized that she just needs to be in hospital  and she needs to be getting the help she needs and  

she needs to be never heard from again in that  sense and I think we can pretty much guarantee  

that uh that's not going to be an issue but on the  other hand if this continues the only option I've  

got is to publicize everything I find out um and  that's just not going to be good for the people  

who are behind him and we don't know anything else  about suan and and his whereabouts whether he he's  

dead or not we don't know and it's interesting to  ask people about this I mean you know you've got  

kids l so if one of them if you weren't sure if  your son was alive or dead which would be worse  

yeah to know that your child's dead or to just not  be sure yeah and I think it's the not being sure  

um that is so difficult so I wish someone would  just tell us what happened you know we're not  

going to sue them or persecute them we just need  to know for the family's sake can I ask you about  

maen begs you went to Afghanistan with mm and uh  he's he's uh he was detained at the airport when  

he returned under Section schedule 7 is it um uh  but but also more broadly uh there's been you've  

noticed the last week Michael goz announced this  extremism uh label and definition or redefinition  

U that's come out of his government um and mm  and cage his organization are implicated in  

are are they're probably exhibit a from Michael  ghost perspective you know they encapsulate this  

islamist extremism that the government is trying  to fight I mean what's your comment on on all  

of that well first um Michael Go's definition of  extremism one of the red flag indicators is that  

you exhibit socialist thoughts well I'm absolutely  guilty of that and if they want to lock me up you  

know put me in handcuffs right now yes it's just  Madness right uh I was reading the guardian on  

Thursday and there I'm quoted and I didn't realize  I'd talked to him I hadn't talked to him but I'm  

quoted as saying that I think cage and Mos and  be play a vital role in the human rights work  

um well I don't remember when I said that it's  true I'll say it over and over again I'm just  

I I didn't realize that what really shocked me  was the context was that they were saying that  

my friend and colleague mzm beg is somehow an  extremist now Michael go was once Secretary of  

Education Minister and so he should know that the  word Prejudice comes from the Latin prud and it  

means prejudgment when you don't know any facts  he's accusing meren of being prejudiced in some  

extremist way which is total nonsense but Michael  go is prejudiced he's never bothered to meet meren  

he he doesn't didn't bother to talk to him before  he tarred him and in the media and he did it in  

a coward's way he did it under parliamentary  privilege where he can say without being sued  

so I got two challenges for Mr Gove the first and  by far the best one would be if he agrees to meet  

with me and MIM in person so he can meet mosim  because when I did that with um the former Chief  

Justice now sadly dead Tom Bingham Lord Bingham  Lord Bingham met mosam and heard what a reasonable  

person he is and how he's about reconciliation and  forgiveness notwithstanding all the a things he  

went through in Guantanamo um Lord Bingham said to  mosim I didn't realize there were people like you  

in guantan and you know he had a lot of respect  for MIM which was great and it's as it should be  

and I have a lot of respect for musim so if go  wants to meet with mosim I'm happy to facilitate  

it he can then change his view the alternative is  he can get up and not be a coward and say what he  

said in public and let us sue him because these  people need to be taught a lesson that they can't  

go around just slandering people and think that  they can get away with it my job is to protect  

the powerless against the powerful and I don't  like powerful people doing what go did to Mosen  

so I I wrote a letter to the guardian just today  on the train coming to see you saying just this  

that I would challenge him to meet with us and and  make his own judgment based not on ignorance but  

but on fact and if he does that he'll realize that  mosam is a the person I know who is a profoundly  

decent human being uh finally Clive when I last  spoke to you you were quite optimistic about  

apia's case and that she would be released and  have you assessed or reassessed that based on  

your engagements at Fourth worth I mean you what  sort of person do you think I am you think I'm not  

a pathetic Optimist under any circumstance now  I haven't real we're still we're going to get  

Justice for our fear uh the only question is how  long it's going to take uh I do see it as a big  

battle Yeah and I don't think that we can approach  this as if it's a system that works it's not a  

system that works we have to approach it in terms  of the leverage we can bring to bear on her behalf  

yeah in order to get us some form of Justice okay  thank you and so your asks are your media asks are  

we need to raise 20,000 P for for rious case and  you need we need to raise quite a lot more than  

that actually there's lots of other costs but  that's just the investigation in America and  

we need a team of lawyers in America to help you  with with her case um I'm sure and most important  

and easiest is for your listeners and viewers to  send me letters at the address I'll give you it  

the the one that works best is tve Stafford Smith  [email protected] that's my personal one and that'll  

always work hopefully Clive I'm uh grateful  for your time today thank you very much my

pleasure please remember to subscribe to  our social media and YouTube channels and  

head over to our website Thinkin  muslim.com to sign up to my Weekly

Newsletter