Seth Godin: Marketing Strategies That Work

Summary

In this insightful episode of MarieTV, host Marie Forleo interviews marketing expert Seth Godin, discussing his latest book 'This is Marketing: You Can't Be Seen Until You Learn to See.' Godin emphasizes the importance of making a meaningful impact through marketing, focusing on serving a specific audience rather than targeting the masses. He advocates for the value of a book as a tool for group discussion and change. The conversation delves into the concept of empathy in marketing, the power of free ideas, and the significance of price in storytelling. Godin challenges traditional marketing approaches, urging marketers to create genuine connections and provide value to their customers.

Takeaways

• 📚 Books are powerful tools for sparking change and discussion among groups, as they can be shared and referenced without the need for digital access.
• 🔍 Marketing is the act of making change happen, not just creating or selling products; it's about bringing value to those who need it and facilitating improvement.
• 🙅‍♂️ Marketers should avoid spamming, interrupting, tricking, or forcing people, and instead focus on serving and helping others through their offerings.
• 🤔 The concept of 'smallest viable audience' is crucial, as it encourages specificity and genuine service to a dedicated group rather than attempting to appeal to everyone.
• 🌟 Authenticity in marketing is not about being true to oneself, but rather about being consistent and keeping promises made to the audience.
• 🎯 Positioning as a service means offering a unique combination of attributes that no one else provides, thus making oneself indispensable to a specific audience.
• 💰 Price is part of the story a product or service tells; a low price can indicate a lack of confidence in the value being offered.
• 🤝 Empathy in marketing means understanding and respecting the wants and needs of the audience, even if they do not align with personal beliefs.
• 🚫 Criticism should be taken as subjective and not necessarily reflective of the overall success or failure of a product or idea.
• 💡 The importance of starting with a clear understanding of the audience and the change they seek to make, rather than focusing solely on the product or service being offered.
• 🌱 The distinction between feedback and advice is vital; feedback is personal and subjective, while advice can offer more actionable and beneficial guidance.

Q & A

What is the main focus of Seth Godin's work and teachings?

Seth Godin focuses on teaching and inspiring entrepreneurs, marketers, leaders, and individuals to make an impact in the world through their work. He emphasizes the importance of marketing as the act of making change happen and serves as a teacher, author, entrepreneur, and speaker.

Why did Seth Godin decide to write 'This is Marketing: You Can't Be Seen Until You Learn to See'?

Seth Godin wrote 'This is Marketing' to share insights from his online seminar, The Marketing Seminar, which thousands of people have gone through. He believes that a book allows for a shared conversation among groups of people who want to make change happen, which is different from the reach of a blog post or a Ted Talk.

What does Seth Godin mean by 'making change happen' in the context of marketing?

According to Seth Godin, 'making change happen' in marketing means bringing an idea, product, or service to someone who needs it and offering them help. It's about making a positive impact on someone's life, not just selling a product.

What is the significance of the smallest viable audience in Seth Godin's marketing philosophy?

The smallest viable audience represents a specific group of people that a marketer is genuinely committed to serving. By focusing on this group, marketers can create targeted messages and solutions that resonate deeply with them, rather than trying to appeal to everyone.

How does Seth Godin view the role of empathy in marketing?

Seth Godin sees empathy as crucial in marketing. It involves understanding and acknowledging what people believe, want, and need without trying to change them. Empathy allows marketers to connect with their audience on a deeper level and offer solutions that truly serve them.

What is the three-sentence marketing template that Seth Godin suggests?

The template is: 'My product is for people who believe [specific belief]. I will focus on people who want [specific change]. I promise that engaging with what I make will help you get [desired outcome].' This template helps marketers to clearly define their target audience and the value they provide.

Why does Seth Godin argue that all critics are both right and wrong?

Seth Godin believes that critics are right in their personal opinions and experiences, but they are wrong if they claim to know what everyone else will think or feel. Critics can't represent the tastes of the masses, so their negative opinions should not discourage marketers from their purpose.

What does Seth Godin suggest is the best way to deal with negative feedback or criticism?

Seth Godin suggests thanking critics for their feedback and using it as an opportunity to understand if there's room for improvement or if the critic simply isn't part of the target audience. He emphasizes not letting criticism paralyze or discourage one's efforts.

How does Seth Godin define the difference between feedback and advice?

According to Seth Godin, feedback tends to be more critical and can feel obligatory, whereas advice is more about providing guidance and tips based on the recipient's experience and perspective. Advice is often more constructive and helpful for improvement.

What is Seth Godin's perspective on the importance of price in marketing?

Seth Godin views price as part of the story a marketer tells about their product or service. He argues that focusing solely on being the cheapest is a sign of a lack of creativity and can lead to a race to the bottom. Instead, marketers should focus on the value they provide and be confident in the worth of their offerings.

How does Seth Godin differentiate between an entrepreneur and a freelancer?

Seth Godin defines an entrepreneur as someone who builds something bigger than themselves, potentially creating a business that can operate and generate income even when they are not actively working. A freelancer, on the other hand, is self-employed and typically gets paid for the work they do themselves, without necessarily building a larger entity.

Outlines

00:00

📚 The Power of Books and Marketing with Seth Godin

In this segment, Marie Forleo introduces Seth Godin, a renowned author, entrepreneur, and marketing expert, emphasizing his impact on millions through his blog, online courses, and lectures. Godin discusses his latest book, 'This is Marketing: You Can't Be Seen Until You Learn to See,' and the importance of books as a means to facilitate group discussions and shared experiences that digital content cannot replicate. He highlights the value of creating change through marketing and the role of marketers as agents of positive transformation, rather than merely promoters or salespeople.

05:02

🎯 Focusing on the Smallest Viable Audience

Marie and Seth delve into the concept of targeting a specific, smallest viable audience rather than attempting to reach everyone. Seth argues that trying to appeal to the masses dehumanizes the audience by treating them as a faceless entity. Instead, he suggests identifying a group of people that the marketer is genuinely dedicated to serving. This approach encourages marketers to deeply understand and cater to the needs and desires of their audience, fostering a more meaningful connection and allowing for more impactful marketing efforts.

10:05

🎼 Positioning as a Service: The Piano Teacher Example

Seth Godin illustrates the idea of positioning as a service using the example of a piano teacher. He explains that by identifying the specific needs and preferences of potential students and their parents, a teacher can carve out a unique niche for themselves. This involves creating 'axes' of differentiation, such as price, teaching style, or musical genre, and committing to a particular intersection of these axes that no one else occupies. Godin emphasizes the importance of generosity in marketing, positioning oneself to serve the audience's needs, and being willing to direct potential customers to competitors if they do not align with one's unique offering.

15:05

🤔 Navigating Criticism and the Importance of Empathy

In this part of the conversation, the topic of criticism and its role in marketing is explored. Seth Godin posits that while critics are entitled to their opinions, their views are not necessarily reflective of everyone else's. He advises marketers to thank critics for their feedback and to use it as an opportunity to guide them towards experiences that better suit their preferences. The discussion also touches on the difference between feedback and advice, with Godin suggesting that advice is more valuable as it comes from a place of empathy and understanding of the target audience's needs.

20:08

💰 Challenging the Notion of 'Authenticity' and the Role of Price

Seth challenges the conventional understanding of authenticity in marketing, arguing that professionals should focus on delivering a consistent promise to their audience rather than being 'authentic' in the sense of being like everyone else. He also addresses the topic of pricing, stating that a low price is often a sign of a marketer lacking in generous ideas. Godin encourages marketers to be confident in the value they offer and to communicate that their product or service is worth the cost, even if it's not the cheapest option.

25:12

🚀 Embracing the Free Market and Trust in Marketing

The conversation shifts to the power of free offerings in marketing. Seth Godin discusses how providing free content, such as ideas, videos, audiobooks, and podcasts, can help build trust and attention, which are crucial in the modern economy. He emphasizes that while physical products like factories can be outsourced, the intangibles of trust and attention are key to making an impact. Godin also highlights the importance of serving a market that is willing to pay for value, even if they don't have deep pockets.

30:14

🌟 The Importance of Craft, Change, and Marketing

In the final paragraph, Seth Godin and Marie Forleo reflect on the importance of being good at one's craft, initiating change, and mastering the art of marketing. Godin acknowledges the risk and responsibility involved in bringing one's best work to the world and suggests that if the world does not respond as expected, it may be due to shortcomings in marketing rather than the quality of the work itself. He encourages continuous improvement in the craft of marketing and leaves the audience with a sense of pride and excitement about the impact they can make as marketers.

Keywords

💡Marketing

Marketing is the core theme of the video, defined by Seth Godin as the act of making change happen. It is not about spamming, interrupting, or tricking people, but rather about serving a specific group of people with a product or service that they need. In the script, Godin emphasizes that marketers should focus on making a change and bringing value to those who need it, rather than trying to appeal to everyone.

💡Change

Change is a central concept in the video, with Godin stating that impact is made when someone is changed by the work. It implies that marketing is not just about selling a product but about creating a transformation in the consumer's life. The script mentions that marketers aim to open doors, shine lights, and bring ideas to those who need them, exemplifying the change they wish to enact.

💡Authenticity

Authenticity in the video is discussed as a potential trap. Godin argues against the notion that one must be authentic in the sense of being true to oneself at all times. Instead, he suggests that professionals should make and keep promises to their customers, regardless of their personal feelings or circumstances. Authenticity, in this context, is about being consistent and delivering on the promises made to the audience.

💡Audience

The term 'audience' refers to the specific group of people that a marketer or business aims to serve. Godin stresses the importance of identifying and focusing on the smallest viable audience rather than trying to reach everyone. The script illustrates this with the piano teacher example, where the teacher positions themselves to serve a particular niche within their local area, thus curating a dedicated audience.

💡Pricing

Pricing is discussed as a story that marketers tell about their product or service. Godin suggests that a low price is often the last resort for marketers who have no other value to offer. The script mentions that pricing should reflect the value and story of what is being sold, and that consumers are willing to pay more for products that offer them a sense of reassurance and quality.

💡Feedback

Feedback in the video is presented as an essential part of the marketing process. Godin differentiates between feedback and advice, noting that feedback is subjective and personal, while advice can be more constructive and useful. The script encourages marketers to be open to feedback but to understand its limitations and not let it paralyze their efforts.

💡Critics

Critics are portrayed as a natural part of putting work out into the world. Godin advises that all critics are right in their own opinions but wrong if they claim to speak for everyone else. The script uses the example of Harry Potter, which has many one-star reviews, to illustrate that even the most successful products will have detractors, and that's okay.

💡Trust

Trust is highlighted as a fundamental building block in the modern economy. It is earned through the provision of free content or samples that offer value and build goodwill with the audience. The script explains that trust is crucial for gaining attention and that it can be leveraged to create a successful business or movement.

💡Free

The concept of 'free' is explored in terms of its power to generate trust and attention. Godin points out that offering free content can be a strategic way to spread ideas and build a following. The script contrasts physical products, which can be depleted, with ideas, which can be shared freely without loss.

💡Craft

Craft refers to the skill and expertise involved in creating a product or service. The video emphasizes the importance of both craft and the ability to market that craft effectively. Godin suggests that even if the world does not initially receive one's best work, it may be due to poor marketing rather than a lack of quality in the craft itself.

💡Entrepreneur

An entrepreneur is someone who builds something bigger than themselves, with the intention of creating a business that can operate and generate income independently. In the script, Godin differentiates between entrepreneurs and freelancers, noting that entrepreneurs focus on building a scalable business model, while freelancers offer services based on their personal skills and time.

Highlights

Seth Godin discusses the importance of making an impact through work and the role of marketing in driving change.

The value of a book as a tool for sparking conversation and shared experiences among a group, as opposed to digital content.

The concept that marketing is about making change happen, not just creating or selling products.

The idea that marketers should focus on serving a specific group of people rather than trying to reach everyone.

The importance of starting with understanding the human and their needs before creating or marketing a product.

The three-sentence marketing template Seth Godin suggests for a clear and empathetic marketing approach.

The discussion on positioning as a service and the example of a piano teacher finding a unique market niche.

The idea that all critics are right in their opinions but wrong in assuming their opinion represents everyone.

The distinction between feedback and advice, and why it's important to seek advice from your target market.

The assertion that price is part of the story a product tells about itself and that being cheap can be a sign of fear.

The importance of serving a well-off audience if possible, based on their willingness to spend, not just their wealth.

The power of free ideas and content in building trust and attention in the modern economy.

The assertion that if your best work isn't received well, it might be due to poor marketing, not a lack of value.

The encouragement for marketers to see their role as a craft that can be honed and improved over time.

The closing thoughts on the importance of empathy, storytelling, and the craft of marketing in making a difference.

Transcripts

Hey, it's Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business

and life you love.

Now, if you want your work to make an impact in this world, my guest today is one of the

most thoughtful and prolific teachers of our time.

Seth Godin is an author, entrepreneur, speaker, maker of ruckuses, and most of all teacher.

Over the past quarter century he's taught and inspired millions of entrepreneurs, marketers,

leaders, and fans from all walks of life via his blog, online courses and lectures.

He runs themarketingseminar.com and created altMBA.

He's the author of 18 bestsellers that have been translated into more than 35 languages.

His latest book, This is Marketing: You Can't Be Seen Until You Learn to See, is available

now.

Seth Godin, thank you so much for coming back on the show.

Marie Forleo, thanks for having me back.

I thought I blew it last time.

Here I am again.

It's great.

Are you kidding?

You blowing it doesn't even like... it doesn't register.

It's because you raise the bar so high.

The work you put into it and the spirit is such a privilege to talk to you.

I adore you.

Thank you.

You guys, I know you just saw a cover.

You saw it.

This is Marketing, I'm gonna say this is genius, this is a book you have to get for yourself,

your friends, your loved ones, anyone who cares about making change in the world through

what they do.

Seth, you have so many incredible books.

Why this book, this topic, right now?

Books are different than they used to be.

There's so much work.

It's a year, as you know or more.

Then you got to go and bring it to the world.

You just make a blog post, reach more people.

Why not just make a blog post?

Or why not publish it yourself?

My last book I published myself.

It did pretty well.

There's something about a book that let's the reader say to his or her peers, read this.

The three of us, we're all gonna read this and meet about it tomorrow.

You can't do that with a Ted Talk, you can't do that with a blog post because the book

itself contained no batteries required.

Here, read this.

I run this seminar online called The Marketing Seminar.

I got to watch six thousand people go through it and see how they changed and see what worked

and see what didn't.

I said, “Oh, I should write this down.”

The book itself, once I made the course wasn't that hard to make.

Then I said I'm willing to go through the pain of bringing it to people.

Because if groups of people that want to make change happen can share this conversation,

they're gonna disagree with a lot of what I said.

Fine with me.

At least you're gonna talk about it.

That's why it's worth the journey.

That's really freeing for me even because as we were talking before the camera started

rolling, I was telling Seth how I'm in the last leg of my book right now.

Can't wait.

I love it.

I'm gonna remember this.

I'm like, highlighting this in my brain.

People are gonna disagree with a portion and that's fine, but to get them talking.

You say in the book and I'm gonna do a lot of this in this conversation, because literally

I have so many highlights and so many underlines.

You say, marketing is the act of making change happen.

Making is insufficient.

You haven't made an impact until you've changed someone.

Right.

A lot of people don't like marketers, more than don't like accountants, which doesn't

make a lot of sense because accountants have a job and marketers have a job.

What do marketers do?

Here's what we don't do.

We don't spam people, interrupt people, trick people, force people to do things they don't

want to do.

That's a different task that calls itself marketing.

That's not what we do.

Marketers make change happen.

If you can make someone better, if you can open a door for someone, if you can shine

a light, that's the act of marketing.

Because what you've done is brought an idea or a product or a service to someone who needs

it, and offered them help.

A lifeguard knows how to swim.

Until you get the drowning person to hold onto that ring, you haven't accomplished anything.

That's marketing.

Persuasion.

What I wanted to do once and for all is say, that other thing that you don't like, that

other thing that some people call marketing, programmatic, and pop ups and pop unders and

all that nonsense, no.

That's not what I'm talking about.

This is for us.

Work that matters for people who care.

You also write, “The answer to just about every question about work is who can you help?”

You also have “Instead we begin with a group we hope to serve, a problem they seek to solve,

and the change they seek to make.”

Talk to us about starting with the human, the person first.

Not necessarily what we want to make or our creations, but this approach.

I'm gonna come in sideways a little bit because one of the controversial ideas is that we

need the smallest viable audience, not the biggest possible audience.

A lot of people have trouble with that.

They say, why should I do all this work if I don't want to reach everyone?

If you want to reach everyone, that means you've denied the people you're serving their

humanity.

Because you're saying you are the masses, you are average.

If you can pick someone, if you can be specific, the smallest viable group of people and say

I live or die with you.

You are who I'm here to serve.

If I can't please you, I didn't do a good enough job.

That's different.

That puts you on the hook to see other people for where they want to go.

If that's not where you want to go, well then they're the wrong people.

If no one wants to go where you want to go, then you are not gonna achieve what you seek

to achieve.

To be honest here, what we have to begin by saying is, who would miss me if I was gone?

Who will say to me thank you for bringing me this?

Some skeptical people say, that's impossible.

No one wants life insurance.

My answer is, so then don't make life insurance.

Let someone else do that.

You get to pick what you do.

Do something worthwhile because it's gonna take blood, sweat, and tears to go to the

next level.

If you're not who it's for, and what it's for, and obsess about that because we don't

do marketing to people.

We do it with them because they have a choice now.

They didn't used to have a choice.

With so many things a click away, they have a choice.

If they're not gonna pick you, then you're out of luck.

I love your simple three sentence marketing template.

I feel like for our audience and for most people, especially if they're uncomfortable

with marketing or they're still trying to get over that other thing, I feel like I talk

about this a lot in B-School as well.

Part of my job with my B-Schoolers is to help them unlearn a lot of the icky, aggressive

associations that they have with what marketing even is.

Giving people a simple template I think can be helpful for a lot of folks.

Oh, this is how it is.

Do you want me to read it or do you want to go from there?

I change it every time so you go first.

Okay.

“My product is for people who believe blank.

I will focus on people who want blank.

I promise that engaging with what I make will help you get blank.”

It's so simple.

But if people started there, it switches the entire perspective.

There's all this empathy involved, which empathy it doesn't have to be mushy and soft.

Empathy can simply be a willingness to let people be who they want to be and not insist

that they be who you want them to be.

The template begins with “if you are the kind of person who believes blank,” if you're

the kind of person who believes in authority over affiliation, if you're the kind of person

who is an optimist not a pessimist.

All these different things, different people believe.

I might not believe what you believe, but I'm okay with what you believe.

You want a certain kind of change.

Then this thing I'm bringing you, I promise you will help you reach your dreams and goals.

Let's think about Harley Davidson.

I don't have a Harley.

Do you have a Harley?

I do not.

It's not for me.

That's because I don't believe blank, where believe that having a 15 thousand dollar heavy

motorcycle will make me feel more complete or part of that group.

I don't want that.

If they go to people who do want that, then they say here's our next one and that's why

they don't make a competitor to the Vespa scooter.

Because they could and it would work, but it wouldn't address the dreams and desires

and hopes and fears of the people they seek to serve.

They don't make scooters.

They make big motorcycles.

Big motorcycles.

When I think about the extraordinary success you've had leading the people that you lead,

you don't spend any time at all worrying about the person on Wall Street who's not tuning

in.

It's not for her.

You're right.

Right?

It's not for her.

That's okay because there's so many people.

You and I have big followings, which is such a privilege.

98% of the people in the United States have never seen your show, never read my book.

98%, fine.

Nobody knows who the hell we are.

It's perfect.

Yes, totally.

Absolutely.

I want to talk about positioning as a service.

This was one of my favorite examples.

I actually shared when I was reading the book over the weekend.

Two of my friends I shared your example of the piano teacher with, because I think it's

so genius.

I know that folks watching the show and I heard this.

I was speaking at an event in San Francisco and a woman stood up and she started talking

about it.

She's like, but there's so much noise out there.

How am I going to stand apart?

I thought when I read your ingenious idea about the axis and specifically the piano

teacher.

Can you share that?

Because I think people will see themselves in a whole new perspective.

Traditional marketers if you went to business school or whatever, talk about differentiation.

They talk about how do I cut through the clutter and the noise?

That's selfish.

That says I've worked hard.

How do I get people to me?

Let's throw that out and say that person you seek to serve, they have a problem.

Their problem is just too much noise.

Their problem is they don't know what to pick.

The problem is they've got a kid they want to educate in music but they're not sure how.

Can I offer them a service to help them see what their choices are?

Now it's generous.

In the case of the piano teacher, what I know is that no one drives more than 20 miles to

go to a piano lesson.

Let's call it five miles.

That's the circle of people who can send someone to take a lesson with me.

Then I can create axes and I can have as many as I want but two is all that will fit in

my brain.

I get to pick what the edges are.

Some of the edges could be cheap and expensive.

Some of the edges could be kind or eastern European in their strictness.

Some of them could be focusing on jazz, some of them could be focusing on classical.

You can look at an axis this way and an axis this way.

If you draw oh this one, this one, this one, this one, there's someone who's already over

here, there's someone who's always over here, but there's no one who offers this combination.

On your behalf, I will live in this corner.

If that's what you're looking for, great.

If I talk to you and I realize it's not what you're looking for, I will eagerly send you

to that other teacher because I am here to help you get what you want, not to persuade

you that you are wrong.

Yes.

That shift is so important because it gives us this feeling of sufficiency, which is not

that I have to clear everything off the table so I can go public one day.

It's there's enough as long as I stand for something.

I can ignore the critics because the critics are critics because it's not for them.

Thanks for letting me know.

There's someone over there who's for you.

This is for someone else.

Yes.

I loved it.

I was sharing with my friend too with the piano teacher example.

If someone gets excited and passionate about being really rigorous and says, you know what?

If you want your child to have the best chance of winning in a competition, you want the

practice to be like this.

It's about discipline.

It's about showing up.

It's about winning, whatever that means.

I'm the teacher for you.

On the other end of the spectrum, let's say you're a piano teacher and you're like, it

is about the holisticness of the experience and the creative expression and your child

is gonna love playing.

They're gonna tap into their ability to express their emotions through music.

Then you go to that teacher.

I felt like that example was so wonderful because it allows all of us to also say, not

only what are the problems that the market wants solved, but who and how can I best make

those promises and exceed them?

Exactly.

Which leads to this crazy thing of authenticity.

Because I don't believe in authenticity.

I think authenticity is a trap.

Here's how I know it.

If you need knee surgery and you go to the surgeon and on operating day she says, I had

fight with my family and I don't really feel like doing surgery.

You're like no.

Keep your promise.

Be consistent.

Do this for me.

The drama in your head, not my problem.

I want you to be a professional.

If you show up in a marketplace where every single piano teacher is rigorous and strict

and wants to win prizes and you want to make a living as a piano teacher, positioning as

a service is you don't get to be the authentic one who's just like everyone else.

You have to be the consistent one who makes a promise that says I'm here to serve your

kids.

So what I do is blues and joy and fun and they want to come back next week.

That's what I offer.

In your spare time if you want to go be the rigorous player of Beethoven, please go at

it.

If you're a professional, make a promise and keep it.

Love it.

A counterintuitive––actually we talked about this smallest viable market and you

hit it.

I want to read this because again I feel like I get this question a lot.

We're gonna re-underscore the importance of smallest viable market.

You said the challenge for most people who seek to make an impact isn't winning over

the mass market.

It's the micro-market.

They bend themselves into a pretzel trying to please the anonymous masses before they

have 50 or a hundred people who would miss them if they're gone.

The line of if you can't succeed in the small, who do you believe, or how do you believe

you'll succeed in the large?

I don't think we can say this enough quite frankly because when we do in an exercise

in B-School about ideal customer avatar and I'm having people just imagine for a moment,

just a single person.

People freak out.

They're like, it's so much resistance.

But, but, but, but, but.

I want to serve everyone, serve everyone.

I feel like this is a slightly different angle.

It's like, look.

Forget about tens of thousands or millions.

What about the first ten?

Exactly.

Yes.

Exactly.

One of my…

I don't remember many of my blog posts because you know it happens.

Daily.

There's one I wrote called First Ten.

What I say to people who say how am I gonna get the word out?

I say do you know ten people?

Are there ten people who trust you?

Are there ten people who will try?

Everyone says yes.

I said, when you bring your work to them, do they say thank you and move on?

Or do they insist on telling other people?

Because if they insist on telling other people, you're set.

If they don't, then you need to make better work or find the right ten people.

Those are the only options.

I love it.

You can't buy your way to the masses anymore.

You used to be able to.

It's gone.

On that tip, I want to turn a little bit to the idea that all critics are right and all

critics are wrong.

This is so vital.

Again, I hear this almost weekly any time I go to an event, people ask about it.

It's like, I'm so scared of having that Instagram comment or that blog comment or that email

or that video of someone just trashing my work and saying it's no good.

You said the critic who doesn't like your work is correct.

The critic who says no one else will like your work is wrong.

It's either good or it's not.

That is not true.

Right.

Anyone who has an opinion, it's true.

That's their opinion.

They're not trying to win a logic prize.

It's just I don't like that photo, I don't like that baked good, I don't like this.

Right?

Fine.

Thanks for letting me know.

That might not be my problem.

It might be my problem.

We'll see in a second.

The critic who says I've seen this movie, I'm writing in the New York Times, no one

will like this movie.

That critic is wrong because that critic can't know what everyone else will like.

All they know is what they like.

When someone shows up and says I hate this, the answer is thank you.

Thank you for caring enough to try it.

Thank you for caring enough to let me know that I shouldn't bother you again.

Thank you for giving me a chance to point you to someone else who will help you so I

can earn some trust and repay your trust of me.

Thank you.

When someone says no one should go here, we just need to ignore that person because they're

wrong.

I feel like people forget that the most beloved things...

You use the example of Harry Potter and the book that over 21 thousand reviews and 12%

of them are one star.

One star.

The worst book I ever read.

Worst book I ever read.

Said to the author who made more money as an author than anyone in history, “this

is the worst book I ever read.”

Really.

We need to all remember that.

Do you still, and I don't know because I don't plan to.

Do you still not read reviews on Amazon?

Zero.

Zero.

I haven't done it in five years.

People need to hear it.

I stopped five years ago for a couple reasons.

One: I realized I had never met an author who said I read all my one star reviews and

now I'm a better writer.

Right?

It never happens.

First of all, you're never gonna write this book again.

The feedback on this book doesn't really help you.

The book is already done.

Secondly, all it does is seize you up and make you shut down.

It's like, well you have the right to say that.

I don't have the obligation to read it.

Thank you for taking the time, but no, I don't want to know.

Let's talk about the distinction between feedback and advice because I thought that was subtle

and vital.

Right.

If you say to someone, do you have any advice for me?

You will learn also it's a wonderful thing.

If you say to someone, do you have feedback for me?

It feels corporate, it feels like they're on the hook and they're gonna give you a different

kind of thing.

That is, if I were you, here's my criticism thing.

You're not me.

Thank you for the feedback.

Really what I was hoping for was the advice and the advice might be on an emotional level.

The advice might be you are in my target market.

You're not me the creator.

As someone who's going to consume this, here.

Here's some tips.

That's really helpful.

The other thing that goes on in marketing is marketing is about making assertions.

We assert and for people who believe this and who want this, this will help.

We can't do that in the rearview mirror.

We can't focus group our way to this assertion.

At some point, we say to people here I made this.

If you're not comfortable saying “here, I made this,” you should probably do something

else.

“Here, I made this” is the joy of what we get to do.

It doesn't have to be “I sat by myself in a room and typed something.”

It could be “My team of 40 people just opened this restaurant.

I was part of the team, I'd love for you to try it.”

We made this.

That's all the same thing.

What we didn't do is ask ten thousand people what they wanted, average up all their answers,

here it is.

Because then that's average, which is another word for mediocre.

Absolutely.

Boring.

Forgettable.

Vanilla, and not the good way.

I love vanilla.

You talk about a difficult yet valuable exercise for marketers that can stretch our empathy

muscles.

I thought this was genius.

For the people that don't choose you, why are they right?

Why are the people who don't choose you correct in their decision not to choose you?

Inside The Marketing Seminar, this is the knots people tie themselves into.

What they want to say is you're right because you're an idiot.

Or you're right because you have bad taste.

You have no taste.

You don't even know what's good.

Here's the deal, empathy means I don't know what you know, I don't want what you want,

I don't need what you need, and that's okay.

The person who doesn't like what you sell is right because they don't know what you

know, they don't want what you want, they don't need what you need.

Et cetera, et cetera.

The question as a marketer is to say if I could inform them of something, would they

change their mind?

For a lot of people the answer is still no.

Fine.

Shun the non-believers.

It's not for you.

I get that.

That's what makes culture work.

If you're gonna spend all your time hoping that the white table cloth remains white without

one spot of red wine on it, you're gonna be a very unhappy person.

Because there are no pure white table cloths left.

You state price is a story and that cheap is another way to stay scared.

A low price is the last refuge for a marketer who has run out of generous ideas.

That gets an amen from me.

If you are hoping to win on sort by price, you're doomed because the internet loves sort

by price and someone’s always gonna be cheaper than you.

It's a race to the bottom.

Even if you do win for a little while, you're always gonna be afraid because someone can

get even cheaper than you.

Low price is the refuge for the marketer who has nothing to offer, except it's cheaper.

If that's all you have to say, then you better be the cheapest.

For all the rest of us, we have to say this costs more and it's worth it.

If you're not comfortable with that, then you don't believe it's worth it.

That's the challenge is to figure out how to bring the story of price to the table because

the fact is, no one drives a Yugo, no one gets their hair cut with a Flowbee anymore.

Because the fact is, those were cheaper but we liked paying more.

Yeah.

Because paying more told ourselves a story about who we were and where we are going.

Paying more gives us a sense of reassurance, paying more makes us the customer, which means

we get to dictate quality going forward.

The gutsy thing to do is to be able to say to your customer, "This costs a lot and it's

worth even more than that."

Yes.

That's where we have to head.

That has always made me excited, like in my business I joke around with anyone that'll

listen to me, but I'm like, "Look, I'm expensive but worth it dot com.

I will do my best to put out the best free advice and information that we possibly can

and we work our tails off for that consistently now, and if you're going to engage in a training

program with me, it's going to be an investment, and it will be 20, 30, 40 times more than

what you've invested."

Right.

It feels really good as a business owner.

You know, it's been like 18 years now and I love that positioning because also, you

wrote about this in the book, you can pay people-

Right.

A fair wage, you have margins so that you can invest in quality, you can do other things

with those resources to help shift the culture, whatever culture you're aimed towards.

For anyone listening right now, and I know we have a lot of folks in our audience who

feel this way, they may be getting started on their entrepreneurial journey and they

want to serve a particular market that perhaps doesn't have deep pockets.

What do you say to them?

Well, I got to do a couple little bits back.

Yeah, of course.

First of all, entrepreneurs and freelancers are not the same thing.

Freelancers get paid when we work, you're freelancing right now, so am I.

We didn't send somebody else to the room.

Entrepreneurs build something bigger than themselves, entrepreneurs make money when

they sleep, entrepreneurs build a business they can sell.

Most people who are starting out as entrepreneurs are actually freelancers.

If you want to make it as a freelancer, the only thing to do is not work more hours, 'cause

that hits a limit really fast, it's get better clients because better clients challenge you

more, pay you more, talk about your work more, and the work you make spreads more so you

get better clients still.

The only difference between a great freelancer and a struggling freelancer is who has better

clients.

We need to spend our time doing that.

But if you're an entrepreneur and you say, "I am seeking to serve people who don't have

deep pockets," you just picked your smallest viable audience.

Don't whine about the fact that they don't have deep pockets, you picked them.

If that's their nature, then you're going to need more of them in order to deliver what

you deliver.

Walmart said, "Look, there are people in Arkansas who don't want to spend $600 for a lawnmower.

We're going to serve them, but in order for that to work, we need there to be a lot of

lawnmowers we're going to sell."

That's got to be built into the business.

You can't say, "I want to build a bespoke business that's truly authentic to my inner

nature, and I'm going to spend all this money and I'm going to be critic proof, and it's

$1."

'Cause you can't have both, unless you figure out how to get to scale.

Yeah.

My advice for most people who are starting out is, if you have a choice between picking

a well-off audience and a not well-off audience, pick a well-off audience.

Pick one...

It's not how much they have in their bank, it's how much are they willing to spend to

solve this problem because people without a big balance will still spend a lot to solve

a particular problem if you're worth it, right?

And if it's important to them.

And it also too, I think, it's worth noting, and you talked about this in the book, like

think about how free ideas spread.

If you have a particular idea that you want to get out into the world, you have all of

these free tools, exactly what we're doing right now.

Right.

And it's been the model for me frankly, I love sharing ideas.

I love having genius people on the show that we can say, "Hey, think about this.

This could help you really make a change in your business or your life," knowing that

there's tens of thousands, millions of people that have seen shows like this, they will

never buy anything from me.

That makes me happy.

Yep.

Because if I can make the impact out there for folks that are never going to come to

an event or sign up for a training program, so I don't want to discount that either because

it's like we're living in this miraculous time.

Oh, yeah.

There's two ends to this curve.

There's relatively expensive and there's free, as in free beer and free love and free, free,

free.

Yeah.

Free is this magical thing that the internet has supercharged because what free earns you

is trust and attention.

Trust and attention are the two building blocks of the modern economy, not a factory because

no one owns a factory anymore.

You can outsource the factory part, but you can't bring change to the world unless you

have attention, 'cause no one knows you're there, and trust, so that people give you

the benefit of the doubt.

Where do trust and attention come from?

They come from experience.

Where does the experience come from?

Free samples.

The idea that we can put effort into a concept, a video, an audiobook, a podcast, and have

it reach lots of people, even if all we want to do is make money, that is a really great

path.

But the other part that's super cool is let's say it's not your day job, all you want to

do is make things better, that's another unbelievable opening, is that you can put something into

the world that makes things better and it doesn't cost you anything every time it makes

someone better.

If you own a factory and everyone comes for a free sample, you go out of business.

But if you make ideas and everyone comes for a free sample, you do great.

It's very true.

So, I want to have you, if it's okay, read the last little section in here that I've

noted because I feel like it's the perfect way to wrap up this conversation.

Like I said, guys, I cannot recommend this book enough.

Y'all, if you know me any amount of time you know how much I love marketing, and this book

is filled with marketing timeless genius.

You are so kind.

It's right there.

It's the truth.

I don't blow smoke.

You know me.

“There's a difference between being good at what you do, being good at making a thing,

and being good at marketing.

We need your craft, without a doubt, but we need your change even more.

It's a leap to choose to make change.

It feels risky, fraught with responsibility, and it might not work.

“If you bring your best self to the world, your best work, and the world doesn't receive

it, it's entirely possible that your marketing sucked.

It's entirely possible that you have empathy for what people are feeling.

It's entirely possible that you chose the wrong axes and that you failed to go to the

edges.

It's entirely possible you were telling the wrong story to the wrong person in the wrong

way on the right day, or even on the wrong day.

Fine.

But that's not about you.

That's about your work as a marketer, and you can get better at that craft.

Brilliant.

Thanks.

Brilliant.

Anything else you'd like to leave us with?

Oh, could we talk for two more hours?

Yeah, of course we can.

I learn so much when I'm with you.

The passion and connectedness that you bring to this audience, we're all so lucky that

you are in the forefront of making these changes for people.

Then, I'm proud to be a marketer, you're proud to be a marketer, we're upping the game here

for lots of people.

So, thank you.

Thank you.

Now, Seth and I would love to hear from you.

We talked about so many good things, but I'm curious, what's the one insight that you're

taking away, and, most important, how can you put that insight into action starting

right now?

As always, the best conversations happen over at the magical land of MarieForleo.com, so

head on over there and leave a comment now.

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