Decoding The Homeric Greek of The Iliad with Dr EMILY WILSON

Summary

In this enlightening discussion, Erica from Moan, Inc. interviews Professor Emily Wilson, translator of Homer's 'Iliad'. They delve into the intricacies of translating ancient texts, focusing on Wilson's approach to making the work accessible and engaging for modern readers. Wilson shares her journey from discovering classics as a child to becoming a renowned classicist. She discusses the challenges of capturing the original's rhythm, emotional depth, and cultural context in her translation. The conversation explores the translator's creative process, the importance of language choices, and the impact of pedagogical methods on understanding ancient languages. This video offers valuable insights into the art of translation and the timeless appeal of Homer's epic.

Takeaways

• 🌟 Professor Emily Wilson discusses her translation of Homer's 'Iliad', emphasizing the importance of making it readable, speakable, and contemporary.
• 📜 Wilson's interest in Classics began at a young age with Greek mythology and continued through her education, leading to her career as a classicist and translator.
• 🎭 She highlights the significance of translating not just the words, but the performance and multi-voiced nature of ancient texts, like plays and epic poems.
• 📖 Wilson's translation choices aim to reflect the traditional poetic meter and rhythm of the original Homeric Greek, using iambic pentameter to evoke the experience of the oral tradition.
• 🤔 The translator's process involves deep consideration of language, world-building, and the emotional and sensory experiences conveyed in the text.
• 🔍 Wilson conducted extensive research, including consulting servicemen and women, and observing animal behavior, to accurately depict the world of the 'Iliad'.
• 💬 The interview touches on the challenges of translating ancient Greek, including the differences in vocabulary and the expressive capacity of the English language compared to Homeric Greek.
• 🧐 Wilson shares her approach to handling difficult translation choices, such as the decision to use 'Greeks' instead of 'Achaeans' for clarity and readability.
• 💬 The discussion explores the nuances of translating emotional language, such as the depth of Achilles' grief and love for Patroclus, and the complexities of Homeric relationships.
• 👥 Collaboration with editors and feedback from colleagues and students play a crucial role in refining the translation to resonate with modern readers.
• 📚 Wilson encourages readers to engage with the 'Iliad' directly, suggesting that the narrative is accessible and rewarding, despite its ancient origins.

Q & A

What is the main focus of the interview with Professor Emily Wilson?

The main focus of the interview is to discuss Professor Wilson's translation of Homer's 'Iliad', her translation choices, and the process behind making those choices to create a contemporary and readable version for modern audiences.

How did Professor Wilson's interest in Classics begin?

Professor Wilson's interest in Classics began when she was eight years old, after participating in an adapted 'Odyssey' play at her elementary school where she played Athena, sparking her fascination with Greek mythology and language.

What was the significance of using iambic pentameter in Professor Wilson's translation of the 'Iliad'?

Iambic pentameter was chosen because it is a traditional poetic meter in English that could evoke the traditional rhythm of the original Homeric poems, which were performed out loud and had a musical quality.

Why did Professor Wilson choose to use the term 'Greeks' instead of 'Achaeans' or 'Danaans' in her translation?

Using the term 'Greeks' was intended to avoid confusion and alienation for readers who might not be familiar with the specific distinctions between 'Achaeans' and 'Danaans', providing a more comprehensible and engaging reading experience.

How did Professor Wilson approach the challenge of translating the emotional intensity and physicality found in the 'Iliad'?

Professor Wilson focused on finding English words and phrases that could convey the same emotional impact and vividness as the original Greek, sometimes translating a single Greek word into multiple English words to capture its full meaning.

What was Professor Wilson's strategy for dealing with the difficulties she encountered during the translation process?

Professor Wilson worked through the difficulties by doing multiple drafts, seeking feedback from colleagues, grad students, and her editor, and engaging with the source material until she felt she had captured the essence and clarity of the original text.

How does Professor Wilson view the role of translation in relation to the original text?

Professor Wilson views translation as more than just a reading challenge; it's a writing challenge that requires creating a text with its own identity while maintaining a deep connection to the original. The goal is to provide an equivalent experience for the reader of the translation as one might have reading the original work.

What was the reason behind Professor Wilson's decision to make her translation of the 'Iliad' speakable and contemporary?

Professor Wilson aimed for her translation to be speakable and contemporary to ensure that readers, even if they are not watching a play or listening to an audiobook, can imagine how an actor might perform the characters and engage with the text as it was intended to be experienced in Antiquity.

How did Professor Wilson handle the challenge of translating the first word of the 'Iliad', which has been translated in many different ways by various translators?

Professor Wilson chose the word 'cataclysmic' to convey the sense of divine anger and its large-scale, deadly implications, while also connecting to the natural and divine disasters that occur in the poem.

What does Professor Wilson suggest for readers who might be intimidated by the 'Iliad' or who do not have a background in Classics?

Professor Wilson suggests that readers not be put off by the idea that the 'Iliad' will be too difficult. She recommends reading it out loud, listening to an audiobook version, or joining a book club to make the experience enjoyable and accessible.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Introduction to the Discussion on Homer's Iliad Translation

The video begins with host Erica welcoming viewers to moan,Inc and introducing Professor Emily Wilson, a renowned translator of the Iliad by Homer. Erica expresses excitement about the discussion on Wilson's translation choices and the feedback from the classics community. The conversation aims to delve into the basics of translation and explore the nuances of Wilson's work, including her approach to making the text accessible and engaging for modern readers and actors. The video promises to provide insights into the translation process and the challenges faced in bringing ancient Greek literature to a contemporary audience.

05:02

🌿 Professor Wilson's Journey into Classics and Translation

In this segment, Professor Emily Wilson recounts her initial encounter with Classics at a young age through a school play adaptation of The Odyssey. Her fascination with Greek mythology and language grew as she learned Latin and Greek in high school. Wilson discusses her first translation project, the six tragedies of Seneca for Oxford World Classics, emphasizing the importance of making translations readable, speakable, and contemporary. She also touches on the differences between translating drama and the Homeric poems, highlighting the performative and multivoiced nature of the original texts.

10:03

🎭 The Art of Translation and the Challenge of Homeric Greek

The discussion shifts to the specifics of translating Homeric Greek, a language that no one speaks and is significantly different from Modern Greek. Wilson explains that Homeric Greek was part of an oral tradition that was later adapted to the written form using an alphabet borrowed from the Phoenicians. She underscores the importance of traditional poetic meter in her translation to capture the original experience of the poems. Additionally, Wilson shares the extensive research she conducted, including consulting servicemen and women and researching animal behavior, to accurately convey the vivid imagery and metaphors present in the Iliad.

15:04

📖 The Significance of Iambic Pentameter in English Translations

Wilson delves into her decision to use iambic pentameter in her translation, a choice she believes suits English better than the original dactylic hexameter of Homer. She explains that the original meter is essential to the experience of the poems, and her goal was to evoke a traditional rhythm in English that would be analogous to the experience of hearing the Homeric poems. Wilson also addresses the challenges of making the translation accessible to readers without a background in Classics, providing introductions, endnotes, maps, and glossaries to aid understanding.

20:04

🛠 The Struggle and Evolution of Wilson's Translation Process

This paragraph highlights the difficulties Wilson faced during the initial stages of translating the Iliad. She describes the challenge of creating a translation that is both alive and connected to the original text. Wilson discusses her approach to pacing, avoiding unnecessary length, and capturing the emotional impact and clarity of the original Greek. She emphasizes the importance of multiple drafts and the technical aspects of translation, such as dealing with the numerous names in the Iliad and ensuring that the translation does not expand beyond the original length.

25:05

🗣️ Navigating Translation Choices and Their Impact on Readers

Wilson discusses specific translation choices, such as referring to the Greek army as 'Greeks' instead of 'Achaeans' to avoid confusion. She explains her rationale for prioritizing readability and contemporary understanding over strict historical accuracy. The conversation also touches on the translation of the first word of the Iliad, which has sparked much debate among classicists. Wilson defends her choice of 'cataclysmic' to convey the sense of divine anger and its implications, drawing connections to natural disasters and the overarching themes of the poem.

30:06

🌊 The Connotations of 'Cataclysmic' and Divine Rage in the Iliad

Continuing the discussion on translation choices, Wilson elaborates on her use of 'cataclysmic' to describe Achilles' divine rage. She connects the word to the mythological background of Zeus' plan to reduce the human population, which involves large-scale wars and destruction. Wilson also relates the term to the natural and divine disasters that occur in the Iliad, such as the river rising against Achilles and the massacre he instigates. The choice of 'cataclysmic' is meant to capture the enormity and impact of divine anger as well as the human and natural elements intertwined in the narrative.

35:08

📝 The Collaborative Nature of Translation and Editorial Influence

In this segment, Wilson describes the collaborative process of translation, particularly the role of her editor in shaping the final text. She shares an anecdote about the revision of a phrase from 'crocus colored robes' to 'saffron robes' to ensure clarity for readers. Wilson emphasizes the importance of feedback from various readers, including those familiar and unfamiliar with the original Greek, to refine her translation and address any ambiguities that may arise in English.

40:08

💬 The Power of Social Media in the Translation Process

Wilson discusses her use of Twitter to engage with her audience and gather insights on translation dilemmas. She shares an example where she posed a question about translating the word 'fely' to either 'loving wife' or 'beloved wife,' highlighting the importance of directionality in emotional attachment. This approach allowed her to receive feedback from a wide range of readers and consider different perspectives in her translation decisions.

45:10

💔 The Intensity of Achilles and Patroclus's Relationship

The conversation turns to the complex relationship between Achilles and Patroclus, exploring the depth of their bond and its portrayal in the Iliad. Wilson discusses the quasi-familial and spousal aspects of their relationship, as well as the emotional intensity expressed in Achilles' grief over Patroclus's death. She delves into the language used in the original Greek to convey the significance of their connection and the heartbreak Achilles experiences, emphasizing the need to accurately translate the emotions and metaphors to do justice to the characters' relationship.

50:10

🏺 The Challenges of Translating Emotions and Metaphors in Homer

Wilson reflects on the difficulties of translating the emotional nuances and metaphors in the Iliad, particularly in the context of Achilles' relationship with Patroclus. She discusses the challenge of conveying the complexity of Achilles' feelings upon Patroclus's death, including his sense of loss and guilt. Wilson also addresses the translation of metaphors, such as Achilles describing Patroclus as his 'head,' and the need to capture both the literal and figurative meanings in English.

🌐 The Humanizing Aspect of Translation and Overcoming Pedestals

The discussion concludes with Wilson addressing the humanizing aspect of translation, emphasizing the importance of making classical texts relatable and accessible. She encourages readers not to be intimidated by the Iliad and to engage with the text, whether through reading, listening to an audiobook, or joining a book club. Wilson's passion for her work is evident as she shares her desire to bring Homer's poetry to life for a wider audience and to help readers appreciate the richness of the original text.

📘 Closing Thoughts and Encouragement to Engage with the Iliad

In the final paragraph, the host expresses gratitude to Professor Wilson for her insights and expertise shared during the video. Wilson is thanked for her time and contributions, and viewers are reminded of the importance of engaging with the Iliad directly, rather than relying solely on summaries or discussions. The host encourages viewers to explore the Iliad in its entirety, to experience the depth and richness of Homer's narrative, characters, and the cultural context it provides.

Keywords

💡Translation

Translation refers to the process of turning text from one language into another while conveying the same meaning and often, stylistic elements. In the context of the video, the theme revolves around the intricacies and challenges of translating Homer's 'Iliad' by Professor Emily Wilson. The video discusses translation choices, such as readability, contemporary language, and maintaining the poetic nature of the original text.

💡Homer

Homer is an ancient Greek poet, traditionally said to be the author of the epic poems the 'Iliad' and the 'Odyssey', which are foundational works of Western literature. In the video, Homer's 'Iliad' is the central text being discussed, with a focus on its translation and interpretation by Professor Emily Wilson.

💡Iliad

The 'Iliad' is an epic poem by Homer that centers on the Trojan War and the Greek hero Achilles. In the video, the 'Iliad' is the specific work being translated by Professor Emily Wilson, and the discussion delves into the nuances of its language, themes, and characters.

💡Classics

Classics is the study of the cultures of ancient Greece and Rome, especially the study of their languages, literature, and history. The video discusses the field of Classics in the context of translating and interpreting ancient texts like Homer's works, emphasizing the importance of understanding the original languages and cultural contexts.

💡Translator

A translator is a person who translates written text from one language to another. In the video, Professor Emily Wilson is introduced as a translator, and her work on the 'Iliad' by Homer is highlighted, showcasing the translator's role in making ancient texts accessible to modern audiences.

💡Greek Mythology

Greek Mythology is a collection of stories and legends created in ancient Greece that help explain the world and human behavior. The video touches upon Greek mythology as a source of fascination for Professor Wilson from a young age, which led her to study Classics and eventually translate Homer's works.

💡Historical Context

Historical context refers to the circumstances, events, and conditions that existed during a particular period of time. In the video, the historical context of ancient Greece and the late Bronze Age is discussed as crucial to understanding the 'Iliad' and translating it accurately.

💡Poetic Form

Poetic form refers to the structure, such as meter and rhyme scheme, that a poem takes. The video discusses the importance of maintaining the traditional poetic form of the 'Iliad' in translation, emphasizing the use of iambic pentameter in English to parallel the original's daic hexameter.

💡Cultural Representation

Cultural representation involves the portrayal of elements from a culture, such as language, customs, and beliefs, in various forms of expression, including literature. The video addresses the challenges of representing the distinct cultural elements of ancient Greece in a modern translation of the 'Iliad'.

💡Language Pedagogy

Language pedagogy is the method and practice of teaching languages. The video discusses the pedagogical approach to teaching ancient languages like Latin and Greek, critiquing the focus on translation over fluency and understanding of the language as a living, expressive tool.

💡Characterization

Characterization is the process by which a writer creates and develops the characters in a story. In the video, the discussion of Achilles and other characters from the 'Iliad' highlights the importance of accurate characterization in translation, ensuring that their voices and perspectives are distinct and true to the original text.

💡Emotional Impact

Emotional impact refers to the feelings and responses evoked in the audience by a work of literature or art. The video emphasizes the translator's goal of conveying the emotional depth and impact of the 'Iliad', including the portrayal of love, rage, and grief, to modern readers.

Highlights

Introduction to the discussion with Professor Emily Wilson, a translator of the newly released 'Iliad' by Homer.

Focus on translation choices and the feedback from the classics community on Wilson's translation.

Wilson's personal journey from discovering Classics at a young age to becoming a professor and classicist.

The importance of making translated works readable, speakable, and contemporary, as emphasized by Wilson.

Wilson's previous translation work on Seneca's tragedies for Oxford World Classics.

The challenge of translating Homeric Greek, a language never spoken but composed in a traditional poetic form.

The significance of using a traditional poetic meter in translation to reflect the original language's oral tradition.

Wilson's extensive research for the translation, including consulting servicemen and animal metaphors.

The difference between Homeric Greek and later Greek dialects, such as that of Plato or the New Testament.

Wilson's approach to translating the emotional and physical intensity of the 'Iliad'.

The misconception that a literal translation is the goal, rather than conveying the experience of the original text.

Wilson's use of iambic pentameter in her translation to suit English better than Homer's dactylic hexameter.

The collaborative process with editors and the balance between scholarly accuracy and readability.

Wilson's engagement with her audience on social media to discuss translation dilemmas.

The portrayal of Achilles and Patroclus's relationship in the 'Iliad' and its translation challenges.

The importance of capturing the emotional complexity and intensity in the translation of key scenes.

Wilson's encouragement for readers to engage with the original text despite the availability of summaries and discussions.

Final thoughts on the value of reading the 'Iliad' in its original form for a complete experience.

Transcripts

what's up guys and welcome back to moan

Inc if you guys are new here then hello

my name is Erica and it is a pleasure to

have you joining me today on the channel

because for today's video as you can see

from the title I am chatting to

Professor Emily Wilson who is a

translator of the newly released Iliad

by Homer obviously Homer is not newly

released but this particular translation

is now today although we will be

exclusively talking about uh the

translation choices that were made

within this particular text this is not

the only work that Dr Wilson has

actually reproduced for the modern world

for our lovely eyes for actors for

readers whoever it happens to be I will

be linking all of those in the

description below including her Odyssey

translation but today I wanted to really

get into the nitty-gritty of the choices

that were made the feedback that lots of

the classics Community has had about

this particular

translation however I don't want to

scare anybody off from this interview

because I plan to be getting into a lot

of the basics of translation as well you

know what it means to do a translation

how to go about doing a translation so

by the time we get into the nitty-gritty

of the ancient Greek regarding Homer

hopefully we would have established a

nice base for everybody to then work

from but with all that being said Dr

Wilson it is about time that we hand

this over to you so first and foremost

can you take us back to being a young

woman in Britain which is where you're

from and discovering Classics for the

first time take us to that moment and

what was so special about Classics to

you at that age that made you want to

continue to being the professor and the

classicist that you are today so I first

sort of learned about that Greek

mythology was a thing when I was eight

years old in elementary school I went to

a um just the local church of England

elementary school and they were the

teachers were bored of doing the same

old nativity play every year so they did

an odyssey play adapted for you know

eight-year-olds to play it and I got to

be Athena and it was exciting and um it

was sort of I just realized how exciting

those stories were um both that it was

fun to to inhabit a world full of magic

and goddesses um and then I also then

read lots of kids adaptations of Greek

myth and then once I got to high school

I had the opportunity to start learning

Latin and then Greek and I fell in love

with the languages and the texts as well

at that stage so before we can get to

Homer I know that that was not your

first rodeo when it came to translation

that you were asked to translate uh the

six tragedies of senica for Oxford World

Classics and what really stood out to me

because I actually had that translation

even before you had done all of the

Odyssey ones which was interesting to

find on my shelf but you wrote in that

introduction I have aimed to make my

version readable speakable and

contemporary so this is something that's

always been really important for you in

the art of

translation why I mean I think but in

the case of drama I think it has to be

speakable because the original texts are

speakable I mean there are ancient texts

which are definitely aiming to archaize

there are ancient texts which are not as

speakable as these texts are with the

texts that I've translated have all been

either plays like those tragedies of

senica or Sophocles or ureides which

I've also published translations of or

the homeric poems which were almost

always experienced in Antiquity in

performance and they there are these

multivoice texts which have multiple

different characters within them I mean

of course sakica and Homer couldn't be

more stylistically different and I

wanted to bring out those differences in

the translations um but at the same time

I wanted to make sure that the reader

even if you're reading it rather than

watching the play or listening to the

audio book that you have a sense of this

is speakable and that you can imagine

how could an actor perform this

character right so then what exactly is

homeric Greek for those people that are

like what is Dr Wilson reading on the

page yes so fact we can I'm reading

looks like this there you

go um so it's not modern Greek people

read Homer in Translation because it's

so distant I mean if you think about can

you read bwolf just pick up a copy of

bwolf and flip through if you're an

English speaker no you can't and Homer

is 2,000 years older than bearwolf is

for us americ Greek is a is composed in

a traditional poetic form it's a

language that nobody ever actually spoke

so for me using a traditional poetic

meter was essential because the this

traditional traditional of the language

is is really important it's a language

that was developed over the over the

course of many centuries when the Greek

speaking world had no literacy and then

all of a sudden we don't know exactly

how this happened but in the 8th Century

the Greek speaking World borrowed from

the Phoenicians the alphabet developed

it into an alphabet and we think fairly

soon after that the homeric poems were

composed using this new technology of

writing but drawing on this long

previous oral tradition so homeric Greek

I mean you asked about how is it

different also from later periods of

Greek it's totally different from Modern

Greek and in its sytax in its vowel

sounds in you know a lot of things are

very different though there is overlap

in vocabulary and it's also very

different from later fifth century or

fourth Century Greeks so the Greek of

Plato is very very different from the

Greek of Homer and both of those are

very different from the Greek the coire

Greek of the New Testament and when it

comes

to tackling the text of Homer there's so

much more than just the language that

you have to get into there's also just

the different world that the late Bronze

Age was and having to kind of peer into

that world and translate that world

through the language that you choose and

you did so much extra research with this

translation including talking to

servicemen and women and also even like

Googling videos of animals because of

all of the metaphors that are used for

lions and all of this so why is that so

integral like just again I'm thinking of

the everyday person that's wondering why

do you need to look at a video of a lion

or talk to soldiers to translate this

text like what else is going on in the

text that you need through those videos

and through that extra research that

comes out yes I mean the the most of my

research was to do with reading homeric

scholarship and reading the commentaries

on the text I mean I I think it's worth

mentioning the other stuff because to me

it was a surprise I mean for none of my

previous scholarly monographs did I feel

I need to know what it sounds like when

a bow is when when somebody shoots a bow

but I need to have those sounds in my

head if I want to try to recreate

whatever the text might be doing about

evoking the sounds of Apollo's

arrows switching through camp and and of

course English the English language

doesn't have the same vocabulary for

sounds or for sight or for or for color

or for or for feelings in the body all

of these things are very specific to a

particular language I mean that would be

true of any language pair but the ilad

is so intense in how it represents the

body the feelings the sounds that I felt

that part of what I need to do in this

translation if I if my goal is not just

to look up some words in the dictionary

or tell you you know do the kind of

translation that you would do if you're

an Intermediate Language student and

you're trying to prove to your teacher

I've done the homework and I can tell

you for the exam that i' have done I

know that that's in the generative case

that's not what I'm doing but I I know

this is in genitive case you know that's

that's not the point of these

translations the point is to create a an

equivalent

experience to the experience that I

might have if I'm a fluent reader of

Homer or that a reader or listener in

Antiquity might have hearing these poems

and that's going to include the

vividness of this really does evoke

those feelings in a way that of course

is in some ways totally non-naturalistic

as I said before it's in this

traditional po poetic form it's in this

weird language that no one spoke and yet

at the same time there are things that

feel visceral and real like the feelings

like the sounds I think that's so

interesting you know and to think of the

art of translation something that I

always say on my channel is you know

what I did at University is exactly what

you said which is so literal and you've

got to be like the boat comma having

been thrown and do it very much like

this is exactly what's on the page and

then what you do with the translation is

tell a story and I was just wondering if

you know talking about the English

language do you think in a way that it's

restrictive in doing that when it comes

to Homer because of the depth of

language and the I mean English has a

much bigger vocabulary than homeric

Greek does so no it's not structive in

that way and I also think that there's

something wrong with our pedagogy in in

the teaching of dead languages I mean

the fact that somebody like you sort of

has this idea that it's exactly the same

this clunky English is exactly the same

as this beautiful poem it's not exactly

the same it's it's a way of it's a

pedagogical tool but I think it's a tool

that can get in the way of the actual

goal which is becoming fluent in the

languages the actual goal is to

experience Homer the actual goal is not

to treat the original like a crossword

puzzle by you're sort of writing this

palimpsestic text over the top which I

think I'm not I'm not bling you for

having that having that idea I think

that's part of the way that the the

pedagogy works is that when you learn

French or Mandarin you you don't have

this idea in beginning language class

that my goal is to translate right you

have this goal that my goal is to speak

Spanish and I'm gonna I'm starting to

learn to be be fluent in Spanish whereas

in beginning Latin class students are

sort of encouraged to have this idea

that the goal translation before you can

actually understand Latin you translate

it which ENC encourages this really

weird relationship with the language and

with the text where you you

conceptualize them as I say as crossw

puzzles rather than as these beautiful

coherent entities in themselves which

have their own style and the truth about

them involves that style and involves

the distinctiveness of this is how this

passage is different from that passage

so I think we sort of then can get into

this idea that there's a pretty pretty

lie or there's a there's an ugly truth

and in fact if the if the original is

pretty then it's a lie to make it not

pretty yeah and you use iambic

pentameter as well in your translation

and you've said that that suits English

better than the daic exameter of homer

so I didn't want to assume that anybody

watching would even know what I Amic

pamer was so if you could explain what

that is but also then explain why that

works much better in translation in

English for Homer yes so the original as

you say is in daic hexameter um just so

a Dactyl is a finger and it's la la la

so a finger has three parts

so six parts and the rhythm is that that

way all the way through these long epic

poems it's also the Rhythm that's used

in the honic poems works and days and

the theogony it's the traditional meter

for narrative verse Within the context

of archaic Greece so I sort of wrestled

with I want to evoke something like a

traditional poetic meter because the

sound of the homeric poems is essential

to the experience and and in the

classroom I mean over the decades that I

was teaching these texts both in the

original and in Translation I was always

frustrated that the students would you

know be told by me yes the The Originals

were performed out loud and you can

think of it like song lyrics it it has

this music this Rhythm but if you're

reading a text that doesn't have a

rhythm of any kind in English which is

the case for most of the much most read

um English translations I mean the

fagels the ladore and all the pros ones

they don't have a regular rhythm so the

students aren't getting that rhythm in

their bones um I experimented with could

I use a longer line could I use an

equivalent of daic hexameter in English

there are translations by Rodney Merill

that do that um I think they pay a very

high price in terms of what are the

other elements of the homeric poems that

are also essential and I ALS I mean that

it results in really weird English weird

in ways that I don't think is parallel

to the to the way the Greek is and it

also has this cost of it doesn't sound

traditional whereas the original sounds

traditional so it seemed to me that just

to trigger if you're even if you're a

reader who hasn't heard of iambic

pentameter if you know I to be or not to

be that is the question whether it is no

blow in the mind to suffer the things

and arrows of Outrageous Fortune and so

on if you know that Rhythm and it seemed

to me that the only way to trigger

something analogous to the experience of

here's this traditional Rhythm which was

there for any listener to to even a tiny

fragment of hom you hear a traditional

Rhythm the only thing that's equivalent

in the anglophone poetic tradition is a

Amic

pentameter so do you hope that then when

people pick up your translation because

again like my audience so they come to

my channel because they want to read

these ancient texts and they've never

had any training and I do very basic

summaries of like in case you're lost

here's what's happening move on to the

next chapter do do you hope that they

walk away being able to read then is

that like your not necessarily your

primary goal obviously there are so many

goals when it comes to Hom but is that

one of the main ones that you hope

somebody who maybe didn't have that

traditional teaching and that

traditional experience with Classics is

able to walk away with more of a feel of

what the text would have been absolutely

yes I mean I think in both I mean all of

my translations I have introductions and

endnotes and maps and glossies which

include pronunciation I also have a

pronunciation guide on on my website

because I think part of one of the

things that people sometimes think of as

an obstacle is both I don't know who all

these characters are and I can't

pronounce any of their weird names but

in fact you don't actually need to know

any of that coming into it the

storytelling of Homer is so clear and

even if you don't understand exactly

what happened in that scene you can read

it again read it out loud I have

summaries at the end of the books books

as well in the end notes it's not that

difficult I mean I think people set

sometimes have this idea that because in

the 20th 20th and 21st century Homer has

become super canonical we have this idea

that canonical must mean High culture in

the sense not just that it's very

serious and it really is a great is and

and it's great poetry that doesn't mean

it's difficult and it's actually not

difficult on the level of Storytelling

it's not difficult at all on the level

of hum human characters that you can

understand how they feel and why it's

not difficult at

all so when it comes to your translation

and I know that for 2 years you were

quite stuck on it that you have said and

you wrote as well in your introduction

how you had a twoe struggle with it and

then it kind of clicked and you you know

knew how you wanted to go about it so

what was the original plan for the ilad

for you as the translator what did you

want to do and also I think it might be

beneficial to also go into like what was

the wall that you hit that you went you

know what this is great this isn't going

to harm my pride when I walk away from

this and I try something

different yeah so I mean with both the

Odyssey which I signed up for like 12

years ago or something and then and I

worked on that for five or six years and

published that one and then when I went

on to the ilad in both cases the first

year or two were very difficult um and I

thought um and of course in both cases

I'd come up with a vision for what what

I wanted to do I mean with a translation

as with any book you have to write a

book proposal to convince the Publishers

that this is worth this this is worth

doing and it's there's a possibility

that somebody might want to read it and

it's not doing the exact same thing as a

million other books that are already out

there I mean that's a question with a r

transation as with any other kind of

book um so with in both cases with the

homeric poems with these translations I

had a vision for what I wanted to do as

I already said I wanted to prioritize

meter in a way that isn't done by most

of the existing translations I also

wanted to Think Through how I think over

the past decade or two of homeric

scholarship there's been so much more

recognition of how multivoiced the

narratives are how many how how Achilles

doesn't speak the same as any other

character Helen doesn't speak the same

the points of view of the narrator are

constantly shifting around I felt in

existing translations that I'd used with

my students there was this sort of

flattening tendency to present the

narrative as all more or less the same

and we're usually looking through ad

deus's perspective and and it it doesn't

shift around in the interesting ways

that the original does and they and

those those the diversity of points of

view wasn't necessarily there in the

translations in the way that it is in

the Greek so I I sort of had a vision

with both of these projects and then

exercising it figuring out how exactly

do I make it come alive in the way that

the originals are alive that's a writing

challenge it's not a reading challenge I

me I think people sometimes if they

haven't done

translations sometimes think the main

thing is understanding what the original

says

and that's actually not the main thing I

mean I've been reading Homer for decades

I it wasn't that it wasn't that I would

be stuck on I don't know what that word

means because if I forgot what that word

means I could look it up it's not that

hard and homeric Greek is not that hard

I mean that's part of what I also wanted

to convey is the clarity of the syntax

that it's not that difficult to

understand in the original if you spent

a while learning it um and yet how do I

convey what that Clarity or that

emotional impact or that sound or that

them using completely different words um

and I would sort of constantly get

stuck with both the Odyssey and the ilad

over those first few drafts of feeling

I'm doing what I think I should be doing

and yet it's the bread isn't Rising

right I mean just that question of a

writing project that has to feel Fully

Alive and its own it has to have its own

identity which needs to feel completely

intimately connected to the identity of

this previous text that I deeply Revere

and want to sort of make it make make it

accessible to people who can't read the

original but I hope we be excited by it

if they can if I can do my job of

conveying what's exciting about it so I

started at the beginning with the ilad

and I my first drafts I had to revise

much much more than my later drafts one

of sort of maybe boring technical thing

is that I wanted to Echo the pacing of

the homeric poems in ways that I weren't

done by many translations many of them I

think are too long compared to the

original and therefore seemed too boring

because of course there's always the

Temptation for any translator to

recognize that this word could mean five

different things so I put down five

different things but then you end up

with a translation that's kind of padded

and much longer than the original is so

with the Odyssey I made my I sort of

confined myself to the same number of

lines is the original to force myself

not to not to expand um and I thought I

thought at first I would do that with

the ilad and it proved to be impossible

because there are so many names in the

ilad and a name can't be any shorter

than it is so if I say agam non son of

Atrius it's taken up the whole line and

I I actually need more more lines to get

to make it work um and then even Beyond

those that sort of technical thing

making sure the characters sound you

know quote unquote right whatever that

is getting the anger of of both Achilles

and Agamemnon conveyed in that first

book in a way that doesn't seem

that seems excessive but not

melodramatic and I just felt I had to do

dozens and dozens of drafts before I was

sort of conveying both the extremity of

the emotions and the text empathy for

for for these

characters so I feel like we can now get

a little bit nitty-gritty with the

language hopefully everybody's caught up

at least to what the translation is what

you can expect from the poem some of the

difficulties so you've made lots of

choices when it comes to your

translation obviously that is your job

and one of the ones I wanted to touch on

was how you call the Greek army the

Greeks and I quote you when I say I

therefore chose to call the Invaders the

Greeks because the aans would risk

alienating or confusing the reader for

no particularly good end that I could

see which is very much echoed in what

you've already said in this interview

but I was wondering when it comes to

specific choices like that for example

the Greeks over the

aans obviously you know people might not

know that that doesn't really get to the

meat of the political system in the late

Bronze Age of Greece so as the

translator but also as the professor is

there like a little voice in your head

that's like oh that's not necessarily

correct but we have to get rid of that

because the purpose of this poem is to

be readable it's to be

contemporary I mean as I said about me

it's to be traditional and but also

clear in the ways the original is clear

and then if there is difficulty I wanted

to be payoff about the difficulty in the

case of the akans and the Dan danians

the AKA oi and the Dani those don't

refer in in a specific way to this the

akans come from AIA so and the danians

come from wherever they're used in this

really vague way in the traditional

language of homer so they refer to Greek

speakers in a collective and vague way I

mean I've seen in the classroom how the

people students go in this sort of

rabbit hole of how are the danaans

different from the aans and you sort of

waste half an hour explaining they're

not different they're all coming from

the Greek speaking World it seems to me

that I know I have 100 pages of

introduction which includes you know

many students are going to skip it but

if you want to read that you will learn

that yes Greece was not a nation state

back in the day and it was the land of

Hass didn't exist in the way that it did

later in The Classical period those

those historical facts are there and you

can also see by studying the maps at the

start of my translation of the IAD just

the all the different principat or

that's that's again is an anachronistic

word but all these different areas of

the Greek speaking World from which the

Greek speaking forces come I'm not going

to use a lumbering word like Greek

speaking and it seems to me that a aan

um as I said so is likely to throw the

reader off in ways that I don't think

have payoff I think if I can and it also

throws off the weight of the line

because it's it it's it's harder to to

make it make it work within the rhythms

in many cases and then if I use it

sometimes and not other times again the

reader is going to be confused about

something which isn't difficult in the

original if you're listening to the

original and you have a sense already of

what is the traditional Language by

which the homeric poems refer to

greek-speaking people we know already

that it's the aayo because that's part

of knowing homeric Greek so it seems to

me that if I want an equivalent

experience in terms of

comprehensibility then the closest

equivalent is to use Greek meaning Greek

speak speak even though yes of course

it's not exactly the same thing because

there's this potential for you may think

oh that means that there's a Greek um

Nation but then you could read even just

a few pages of anything about um about

archaic Greece and you would learn

that's wrong including read my

introduction so I'm not sure that it

matters I mean I think it's I think it's

a worthwhile payoff and and of course

every translation Choice has these you

know there's no there's no exact

equivalent of any

from one language to another that's not

how languages work well picking up off

of that it's funny when I was looking up

reviews of your ilad translation

everybody seemed very focused on one of

the first words that you translate and

it's become the topic of so many

discussions that I've seen or even that

I've heard amongst like the classics

Community here everyone wants to talk

about your translation of the first word

of the second line of the Greek which is

cataclysmic and that is this huge

discussion and part of me is wondered I

wonder if just everybody opened it and

they saw the first different word and

they were like we're going to talk about

that one endlessly yeah um but

regardless of that you know this word in

ancient Greek has been translated in

many different ways and just in case you

guys who are watching have only read

translations if you go to Hammond it's a

cursed if you go to Alexander or green

it's calamitous uh Fitzgerald is ruinous

Latimore destructive the list goes on

and on and on and yours the use of the

word cataclysmic is really poignant but

it's also really interesting because it

kind of evokes this more natural

disaster element to that can you just

talk a little bit more about that yes I

mean so maybe one thing I would want to

say is that I think

they one thing I really struggled with

is how to make a a word that canotes

deadliness or um the I narrator I'm

cursing you this is is in a like gam

this this manness and which is achieved

partly by enjam so they the first two

lines of the

poem so it has this like the delay of

the epithet which is not right before

the word that it modifies you can't

actually do that in English because if I

put an adjective way after the the the

word that it's supposed to modify and in

in English we can't tell that that's

supposed to go with that so of course

Greek word order is different because

it's a much more High highly inflected

language in order to convey the oomph of

this word I felt I need to I need to

think through what possibilities are

there um for something that canotes

damned or deadly but really sounds

deadly because deadly does not sound

deadly deadly sounds cartoonish and

ridiculous it needs to sound scary and

it needs to sound as if we really do

know how enormous this the implications

of this of this Divine scale anger and

the other word that we talk about every

word in the in the poem but the the word

me Menace is a kind of anger that's not

the same as regular human anger which

does also exist in The Iliad words like

colos and I sort of try to make sure I'm

keeping a distinction between WTH and

wful for the Divine anger connoted by

Menace and Menos and the more human

scale anger connoted by these other

words like holos um I felt that in order

to make sure it really sounds impactful

even though I can't do the same word

order I need to think through what what

kinds of words are there available in

English that might have some of that

kind of oomph of it's very very large

scale deadly I like the sound and I like

the number of syllables being the same

as the original and I like the idea that

I I once I thought of cataclysmic I

thought as you say that those

connotations of natural disaster is it

too much is it slightly wrong in terms

of it's damned and a curs but it isn't

necessarily explicitly about um natural

disaster and yet I then the more I

thought about it the more I thought in

English the word um cataclysm is is

first used um for Noah's flood um and

there's this sort of idea in the

references to the plan of Zeus if you

read the the ancient commentaries on

that first

line of the ilad that refers to the plan

of Zeus there's this reference to the

myth that Zeus had a plan to help out

Mother Earth Mother Earth being

overburdened by the Mortal men

population so Zeus's plan to help her

out was to ensure destruction of of of

humans because Earth doesn't want too

many humans on her so asus's plan then

involved um ensuring that Helen and

achilles would be born and that would

mean these large scale Wars the thean

war and and then the Trojan War that

would result in tons of humans dying and

then we also in in the course of The

Iliad we're going to have a kind of

cataclysm with the with the river rising

up against ailles when Achilles has

clogged the river with bodies and in the

course of his wroth which entails this

overstepping not just of human Norms

like the Norms to spare supplant which

is favored by Zeus but a constantly over

ailles oversteps it when he returns to

battle the human Norms to help out your

comrade which of course Achilles is

overstepping by developing this plan to

ensure a massacre on his own side which

usually people don't think in homic

world is an honorable the desirable

thing to do um but that he's also

overstepping Divine he's also over

overstepping natural Norms in clogging

the river and having the river rise up

and say please stop talking me up with

corpses so it seemed to me that maybe

cataclysmic kind of works because it

does speak to the ways that a WTH and

the whole plan of use are both human and

natural disasters and of course also

posi Divine disasters because his he's

the son of a sea goddess he has a sea

goddess on his on his side along with

Zeus in this causing of disaster in the

end both for Greeks Trojans and himself

well I was also going to to say that

that was something that I noticed when I

was reading it that there was a lot that

I was connecting through that word of

catac as silly as that sounds like as I

was reading for like the millionth time

I was like oh that's actually that does

work really well because I also spoke to

um Dr Gregory NJ about The Iliad and

about the the way that he attacked it

and his analysis of it and we did a big

discussion as well about how Achilles is

paralleled to Apollo a lot um throughout

the poem and I thought that you know

cataclysm was such a great word to also

get across like you was saying that

divine element to Achilles that I think

obviously his mother is a goddess but

there's so much more to his Divine rage

and his Divine anger and adding in that

word I think at least kind of touched on

that a little bit better than just a

cursed yes I a cur also just has no

impact to it right I mean it doesn't

sound it doesn't sound scary right it

sounds cartoonish again I me deadly and

a cursed I think both just and sometimes

words get worn out and I think those

words are a little bit worn out but yeah

that the connections between Achilles

and Apollo are super interesting we

maybe shouldn't get into the get into

that as a side note but it's super

interesting I mean I was

just the the way that in hecuba's final

lament for Hector she one of the details

in in what she says is that Hector looks

so so beautiful as if Apollo with his

arrows had taken his life right and of

course we know that Achilles actually

took him took his life but that sort of

equation between the arrows of of Apollo

and the the power of Achilles is there I

think running through the poem and and I

think it also then matters that it it's

Apollo among the Greek council at the

start of 24 who is the most vious in

saying we have to stop this

desecration no absolutely but sticking

with your translation because as you

said I could go down a rabbit hole of

just Achilles and we'll be here talking

about something completely different but

I was really curious like how much of of

your translation has to kind of get and

I guess this is the wrong word but

filtered through an editor because I

know that for example you know you use

saffron robes um in your translation I

think that I read that you had said I

think it was the New Yorker that you had

wanted to use crocus colored robes um

instead in that particular instance but

the editor was like who's going to know

what the hell of crocus is that's not

going to work so how much of the

translation has to be collaborative with

the

editor so about that particular

particular one so the the Greek is

crocop peplos um so it it canotes crocus

colored but of course crocuses come in

more than one color um so and and it

seems pretty clear that there's this

idea that um it's golden or yellow

because that's what within archaic Greek

cokos suggests um so I felt that if I I

mean it wasn't that be that I was going

to do it because he said so because you

know I cannot do what he says if I don't

think it's right I mean I you know it's

there's a discussion with any reader or

editor um but it seemed to me that I I

was persuaded that there's this Vivid

image where if you read the Greek you're

not thinking hang on what color is that

you know it's yellow whereas if I use

crocus colored the reader is likely not

to know that it's yellow and so in order

to create the the same cognitive effect

I need you to do something different and

similarly if I use a phrase that might

have a an implication that the the Greek

doesn't have maybe I'm going to need to

rethink that or if I use a phrase that's

too British and American readers are

going to get th thrown off maybe I need

to rethink that I so what I would do I

would do multiple multiple grafts by

myself and read it out loud to myself

read the Greek out loud read the English

out

loud work on it many many times until I

felt I was pretty happy with it then I

would share it with my Norton editor who

doesn't read Greek but is a good reader

of English so he would very often catch

things that might be ambiguous in

English and sort of test whether or not

I want that ambiguity because of course

sometimes I want ambiguity sometimes

there an ambiguity in the Greek that I'm

trying to get across in the English but

then if there's ambiguity that's not in

the Greek but this that I've introduced

in the translation then I want to know

about that and I want to rewrite to make

sure that it's only as ambiguous as the

Greek is and not more so which I think

is is part of the difficulty of the

writing process and then I would

typically sh share what I would think

would be an already very much worked

over draft with both colleagues and grad

students um of my acquaintance and

friends um it's useful to have this sort

of army of grad students available

because then I wanted to have feedback

from readers who've read the Greek as

well as from readers who haven't read

the Greek and to have a sense of how do

you think this might work in your class

and how how does it strike you when

you're reading this next to the Greek um

and then I would usually get you know

second third fourth rounds of feedback

from different people and it was always

useful and sometimes people make

suggestions that I didn't agree with and

that's also useful it's useful to know

both what might I want to revise and

also where do I feel I'm going to dig in

my heels because actually that that does

make sense and then maybe I add an end

note to explain why is this what I'm

doing here well something I thought was

really fun actually that you did on your

Twitter account which do we call it X

now I'm not sure I haven't really

switched over

I so on your Twitter account in 2023 you

actually published a number of tweets

where you were posing the questions to

your audience but presumably classes and

nerds of just you know here's what I'm

tackling with uh you know how can

somebody do this so there was one in

particular that I wanted to pull out and

to sort of tell everybody about in case

they didn't see it but you wrote another

dilemma andromachi is described at 483

or 495 in case you guys don't know those

are the line numbers um as fely I

probably butchered the pronunciation of

all the Greek words I try but that's

okay wife of Hector this suggests love

and kinship but do we translator's

loving wife or beloved wife which

directionality of emotional attachment

matters more and can a translator convey

both in English so already just a very

interesting question but then you can go

and check the translation that you did

and if we skip on over to book six line

656 you chose beloved wife y so I was

wondering then from your words the

directionality of emotional attachment

why was that one more important for you

why was it more important to present

andr as beloved wife rather than loving

wife I actually think both are super

important I mean those what you just

read is a lot of rhetorical questions

right and the rhetorical the answer to

the rhetorical questions is no of course

you can't choose these both of these

things are important um I'm just

checking back through my translation I I

did both so the word um

occurs twice in that passage it occur

I'm to pull up the Greek but I use

beloved um one for one one of those

instances and loving for another because

I want both of those things to emerge in

the translation because I think both are

at stake in the scene I think it matters

both that Hector loves androm and that

andromachi loves Hector and I think a

translation that sort of only does one

with f is isn't is only doing half of

what that epithet can connote so I

wanted both and I felt in this instance

you know I can't I can't say beloved SL

loving in the translation because that's

not it doesn't it it's going to result

in a you know a mess and the original is

not a mess but if I use beloved in one

instance and then like loving a few

lines later then I've at least conveyed

that both of those both of those

elements are there in this relationship

that it is a mutual relationship even

though it's also a relationship in which

in this scene she's begging him to do

something which he's refusing to do and

there's this huge gap in what they each

want and how they each see his decision

to insist on going to leave leave his

family and leave the city and go and

fight so I will add links to all of

those Twitter threads in the description

below so that you guys can find them but

I wanted to give you guys a taste of

what those were because they are really

interesting and as Dr Wilson then

explained there's always a reason behind

the other side of it but also I wanted

to introduce the idea of love and

because a couple that we have to talk

about because I know everybody wants to

hear about them are Achilles and

patrickus and in particular I wanted to

highlight book 18 because that's sort of

where a lot of this loving language

starts coming out with Achilles and in

line 80 in the Greek in case any of my

extra nerds have that or line 99 of your

translation Achilles says my friend

patrickus whom I loved is dead I loved

him more than any other raade I loved

him like my head my life

myself so I wanted to pull those out

because obviously all of the loving

language just there but for people who

don't read the Greek Achilles and

patrias are so popular because of the

song of Achilles and all of this imagery

surrounding them as a couple now I was

wondering if you could take us to the

Greek like what are those words is there

a romantic notion in the actually

ancient Greek vocabulary used yeah I

mean as you say the whole song of

Achilles is very many readers of the

ilad may have read song of Achilles

before they come to the ilad and if even

if they haven't read song of Achilles

they're gonna know the Patrick hilles

meme I mean everyone knows Patrick

hilles right um and I and so I I write a

lot in the introduction about the

iliad's depiction of love and sex

because I think it's important to to try

to address um both the super intensity

of the bond that Achilles and petas have

Achilles of course has no no other Human

family left he's never going to see his

father again he knows that the only

person he has is petus and there are

multiple moments in the in the poem

where we get to see that a that Achilles

and protas are Quasi family members

Achilles

describes says like a little girl

tucking his mother's skirt in the

embassy book the book nine the the

presence of the inset story of melaga

with his wife Cleopatra suggests that

there's a quasi spousal relationship

between Patra CLA and and the equivalent

figure which is Achilles um and yet at

the same time Achilles and petas both

sleep with enslaved women at their sides

so it it's not presented that the

intensity of this emotional bond it

necessarily means they're only having

sex with each other because of course

they're not only having sex with each

other and we're never told they have sex

with each other whereas we are told that

several couples who obviously despise

each other including Helen and haris and

hero anduse do have sex so that modern

idea that the ultimate Pinnacle of

romantic and intimate attachment is

having sex which is what you you get

that in song of Achilles but you don't

get that in the ilad because it's its

ways of presenting what might that what

might a most intense intimate

relationship look like are very

different so just to go to this passage

which as you say is a huge emotional

climax Achilles has um as we've said

been sitting out of the out of battle

for first two-thirds of the poem because

of his overwhelming wroth his Menace

against Agamemnon and the rest of the

Greeks and he's had this he's prayed to

his sea goddess mother thetis to um to

restore his lost honor or at least get

some payback on those who've dissed him

by enabling a massacre of the Greeks

while he himself does nothing so again

he's being like Apollo because he's

sitting at a distance and causing deaths

at a distance um but then at this moment

Achilles

realizes the the answer to his prayers

has also been the worst thing he could

possibly have experienced or done

because petus went out wearing his armor

as his second self into battle and as

you can you know it's coming but it

still makes you cry of course he gets

himself killed of course Hector is

triumphing and kills pus even though

protus is great at killing and enjoys

doing it but he doesn't doesn't

ultimately manage to push all the way

through to the city of Troy as he

fantasizes he might be able to do um so

In This Moment Achilles has discovered

that his dearest person is dead and he

says um after Theus says but I did

everything you asked me to do and

mothers never get any credit for

anything and aiz says yes you did

everything but what good what good is

that to me my friend petas is dead the

language is really very simple in the

Greek and this is Simplicity and cl it

um about so we have we talked already

about f for andram beloved or loving we

have that same word here for Petras he's

philos he's loving and beloved and and

it also has this connotation of being a

family member there's a difference

between different kinds of beloveds he

it's not the language of desirable love

object whom you see from afar and it's

not also not the language of um there

are various other ways you could

describe a loved person person but the

word filos suggests this is part of my

kinship group this is somebody within my

household and also that I love him it

seemed to me crucial in the translation

to make sure that the emotions land and

that we have a sense of both how

strongly emot Achilles feels I mean how

desperate he feels in in this in these

lines and also the complexity of the

emotions so for instance we have um a

verb ton aasa so this is this is um it's

sounds a bit like Apollo right but it's

the verb um apollumi which suggests

either destroyed or or killed or lost so

I've looked at a few translations of

this passage and almost all of them go

only with that translation of lost so

that that in itself just about that one

word you're making a decision about is

what what ailles is experiencing grief

like just grief he's just lost his

dearest person he's very sad yeah yes

he's very sad and clearly he's very sad

he's whipping out his hair and trying to

kill himself um but that is that all

that's going on because the word is

ambiguous and we also know very clearly

from The Narrative that he's the one who

insisted on not going to battle and

sending protus out to die so it seems to

me that that word means two different

things it means both I lost him I'm

desperate with grief and also I did kill

him it's my fault that he's dead and so

I felt a translation that only has half

of that it's not quite enough I need to

translate that same word twice and then

similarly with a slightly different kind

of dilemma um he says I loved him is ke

and a ke is a head in English we don't

usually say of somebody we love very

much I love him like my head right it's

so it's not it's not an idiom whereas it

is an idiom in homeric Greek so many

translators render the idiom by an idiom

like by saying I love to like myself

just that um and it seemed to me that

the metaphor actually also matters

especially because in this poem we've

had a lot of literal decapitations like

Agamemnon on the battlefield who's the

quote unquote head of the Greek

Coalition of forces has cut a lot of

people's heads off and achilles himself

and the fact that Achilles figur himself

as returning to battle without a head

because he doesn't have petlas it's like

a body part it's not just a loved member

of the household and a wasi wife dearest

person second self it's also like part

of his own body um so I I felt I need

again to translate that word with more

than one English word because there's no

way to convey both that head means

second self or means some somebody who's

Ultra Ultra important but also there's

this metaphor of the head so I thought I

had to translate it you know with three

different words so that in a way I'm

sort of giving the footnote in the text

to make sure that you understand both

that he protus is like ail's head and

also that's what that

means well I always really like to

humanize my guess because I think that

there's a certain degree of looking at

classes and looking at professors and

being like oh goodness they're you know

on this pedestal and they're perfect and

they must understand everything the

first time that they read it because you

know as you've said you've been reading

The Iliad for years and years and you're

so familiar with it and been teaching it

to students over and over and over again

so I wanted to pose a question to you

which was what was the most difficult

part of this translation like was there

a singular maybe passage moment maybe

one that we've already discussed that

you pinpoint is like that taught me a

lot maybe about yourself as a translator

but also maybe about homeric Greek that

you walked away thinking okay I've done

that I feel really good about myself

yeah I mean it's so hard to pick out

individual moments out of a very long

journey I mean every every is difficult

and every day is wonderful because it's

difficult right I mean I think the that

challenge of these two languages are so

different and it's it's impossible to

you know to do what I'm what I'm setting

myself up to do of trying to create

something like the same experience using

completely different words I think it's

a really difficult thing to to try to do

a translation but it's also I mean I

find it really rewarding when people

have read my translations and feel that

they've noticed things about the

original they hadn't noticed before that

that the poems come alive in a different

way and that's just very satisfying and

makes me feel good so I'm thinking we

haven't we haven't talked about Helen I

thought a lot about how to make sure

that encounter between Aphrodite and

Helen at the end of book three sounds

appropriately scary I mean it seems to

me that sometimes sort of discussions I

mean I think there's there's a sort of

tendency to sentimentalize very often um

I think there's a tendency to

sentimentalize the the goodbye of van

drumi and Hector I think it's

heartbreaking but not actually

sentimental um I think there's also can

be a tendency to sort of make make the

the chilling of the homeric Gods like

their their the sense of their reality

in the world is really difficult to

convey to readers who presumably don't

worship these same Gods um so I spent a

lot of time just sort of trying to make

sure I can figure out how to present

Aphrodite as this real force in the

world who's totally dominating this

Mortal woman I mean there's also

something to me so fascinating about the

fact that the whole Narrative of the

poem hinges on the fact that Warriors

capture enslave rape mortal women but we

never actually see that happening what

we see happening is a goddess dominating

a mortal woman so it's through this

female female um agency that the sort of

Quasi enslavement of the only woman we

see sort of being taken to a man's bed

happens so I thought the chillness and

Terror of that scene needs to come

across I mean there are other scenes

that are chilling and terrifying there

are also other scenes that are

heartbreaking or exciting or beautiful

thinking through how those effects can

come through in the translation is

really difficult and I certainly didn't

get it right every time but I tried so

then as a final question and then I will

let you go about your

Friday just because I'm trying to figure

out how to phrase a so doesn't sound too

bad because I always feel bad when I get

these comments but because I do these

summaries the comments I get of people

saying thank God you've done this so I

don't have to read the book and it makes

me really sad because I'm like that's

not the purpose of this summary the

purpose was to help you read so the

reason why I didn't want to sound to

sound back I know a lot of people are

going to be listening to this thinking

oh great now I got this whole discussion

of the translation now I really don't

need to go and read The Iliad so what

would you say to that particular person

that's listening to this going Fab I

understand everything about Homer to

encourage them to go to the text I mean

we have

we we said very little about the text I

mean I I rabbit it on about how

difficult translation is but we we

barely touched the surface even of

talking about Achilles and Hector let

alone all the other wonderful wealth of

characters that there are in this great

poem I mean if if you don't want to read

the ilad I kind of find it a bit

baffling that you would want to hear us

rabbit on because I mean I'm not nearly

as interesting as Homer is um the IAD as

as as I've said is super interesting and

engaging and emotionally exciting

narratively exciting and at the same

time it has this sort of fascination of

something that's both totally human and

totally alien because it's it's from

this very very distant culture and its

narrative tropes as I was trying to

suggest about about the representation

of sex but it applies much more

generally are not at all the same as

modern readers might assume or presume

if you haven't read it um I mean I would

say you can get the audio book if you're

scared to read it you know the there's a

great audio recording by audre McDonald

who's a wonderful actress and singer and

her voice is great and she does all the

different characters and you know you

can put it on in your car while you're

doing your your housework and it's fun

um it's it's I think if you have any

interest whatsoever don't be put off by

the idea that it's going to be way too

difficult because it really is not

difficult and it doesn't matter if you

don't know the names of everyone in the

catalog of ships because some of them

are presumbly just made up for that

purpose you just need to reading and if

if you find yourself getting stuck read

it out loud read it out loud to your cat

or your partner and have a good time

doing it I mean I've heard of lots of

people getting getting together little

book clubs of people and you know have a

drink and read some Homer together and

it's fun you know it's a good time well

Dr Wilson I could spend all day talking

to you about the Iliad but I am aware

that I have run out of my allotted time

so thank you so much genuinely for

spending even 10 minutes with with me

and my audience to give us such a great

overview of translation and of Homer

getting into some details with us

explaining things so brilliantly I mean

it means the world to me and I know that

my audience appreciate it greatly as

well and thank you guys for your

continued support here on the channel

because without you without you guys

watching subscribing sharing these

videos I wouldn't be able to bring on

guests like Dr Wilson so as I said at

the start of the video you can find all

of the different translations that Dr

Wilson has done Linked In the

description below as well as her socials

if you want to keep up to date with new

projects that are coming and Classics

news obviously but with that I will love

you and leave you so I'll see you next

time with more videos here on Mo Inc see

you then