Naval Ravikant & Kapil Gupta: The Truth About Hardwork

Summary

In this insightful conversation, Naval Rabbikan and Couple Gupta delve into the nature of truth and hard work. They discuss how truth resonates with an individual's core, often bypassing intellect and causing an emotional response. The dialogue shifts to examine hard work, challenging the notion that it is a goal in itself. Instead, they argue that hard work is a byproduct of desire and necessity, and in an era of leverage, judgment and choosing the right tasks matter more. The conversation highlights the importance of aligning with one's strengths and passions, and the inefficacy of merely working hard for its own sake. They also touch on societal perceptions of failure and success, and the need to recognize and reward true talent and effectiveness.

Takeaways

• 🧘‍♂️ **Gut Feeling as Truth**: The first indication of truth can be a gut feeling or an inner resonance that goes beyond intellectual understanding.
• 🔮 **Predictive Power of Truth**: Truth is also defined by its ability to predict future outcomes, with greater predictive accuracy correlating to a higher degree of truth.
• 🤔 **Intellectual vs. Emotional Truth**: There's a struggle between the intellectual understanding and the emotional or intuitive grasp of truth, with the latter sometimes providing a clearer insight.
• 👶 **Childlike Perception of Truth**: Children often speak the truth in a straightforward manner, which can provoke strong reactions from adults who are not prepared for such honesty.
• 💪 **Hard Work as a Byproduct**: Hard work is seen as an effect of genuine interest and commitment rather than a goal in itself, especially in an era of high leverage and amplified impact.
• 🛠️ **Judgment Over Hard Work**: In the modern world, judgment and decision-making are often more critical than the sheer amount of hard work put into a task.
• 🎯 **Alignment with Desire Drives Action**: Individuals with a strong desire for a goal will naturally work hard without being compelled to do so, as hard work is a reflection of their commitment.
• 🧗‍♀️ **Climbing the Wrong Mountain**: Many startups and individuals work hard but fail due to a misalignment with market needs or a lack of product-market fit, not because of insufficient effort.
• 🌳 **Nature as a Metaphor for Effortless Action**: Nature operates without 'hard work,' following its own rhythm and necessities, which should be a guide for human action as well.
• 💰 **Effort vs. Efficiency in Business**: Society often overvalues effort, sometimes demonizing those who achieve more with less perceived work, indicating a need to reevaluate the metrics of success.
• 🚀 **The Role of Leadership**: Leadership is about inspiring a desire in others to achieve goals, rather than dictating what to do, which can be counterproductive.

Q & A

What is Naval Ravikant's definition of truth?

Naval defines truth as something that feels true to him and also as something that has predictive power, allowing for more accurate predictions of the future.

According to Couple Gupta, what is the significance of an immediate emotional response to a statement in determining its truthfulness?

Couple Gupta believes that an immediate emotional response or resonance to a statement, even before intellectual understanding, is a strong sign that something is true because it bypasses intellect and resonates with our core.

What does Naval Ravikant think about the societal emphasis on hard work?

Naval Ravikant views hard work as an effect of something that needs to be done, rather than a goal in itself. He believes that in the current era of infinite leverage, judgment matters more than hard work.

Why does Couple Gupta believe that hard work is often done out of fear and anxiety?

Couple Gupta thinks that hard work is often a prescription followed out of fear and anxiety, where it becomes a competition and a game in itself, rather than a means to an end.

What does Naval Ravikant consider to be a more important factor than hard work in achieving success?

Naval Ravikant believes that the choice of what to work on, who to work with, and the intensity of one's desire are more important than just the raw hours put into work.

How does Couple Gupta view the concept of hard work in relation to play and one's superpower?

Couple Gupta suggests that what feels like play to an individual is their superpower, and that people should focus on what feels like play to them, as this is where they will outperform others.

What does Naval Ravikant suggest is the reason behind the romanticism of hard work in society?

Naval Ravikant implies that society values effort as a form of arrival and a sign of doing the right thing, which leads to the romanticism of hard work and the demonization of those who are efficient.

How does Couple Gupta define work and distinguish it from activities that one enjoys?

Couple Gupta defines work as a set of things that one has to do that they don't want to do; if one wants to do it, it's not considered work.

What does Naval Ravikant believe is the key to avoiding burnout in work?

Naval Ravikant believes that aligning oneself with work where one is not suffering is key to avoiding burnout, and suggests that people should stick to what they are good at and enjoy.

Why does Couple Gupta think that hard work is often used as a door prize or an excuse for failure?

Couple Gupta suggests that hard work is used as a door prize or an excuse for failure because it provides a response to the mind when it questions why one didn't succeed, and it is seen as more forgivable socially.

What does Naval Ravikant suggest is the real reason behind company failures?

Naval Ravikant suggests that companies fail not when they run out of cash, but when the founders and team run out of energy and desire to continue.

How does Couple Gupta view the concept of desire in relation to success and failure?

Couple Gupta believes that a sufficient degree of desire is crucial for success, and that failure often stems from a lack of true desire rather than a lack of hard work.

What does Naval Ravikant think about the idea that everyone can be anything?

Naval Ravikant suggests that the myth that everyone can be anything contributes to unhappiness in modern society, as it sets people up for disappointment when they don't achieve what they aspire to.

What does Couple Gupta mean by 'teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea' in the context of leadership?

Couple Gupta is referencing a quote by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, implying that a true leader inspires a deep desire in others, rather than simply instructing them on what to do.

How does Naval Ravikant view the concept of 10x performers in the context of compensation?

Naval Ravikant believes that while society acknowledges the existence of 10x performers, it is socially unacceptable to compensate them at that level, which often leads to these individuals leaving to start their own companies.

What does Couple Gupta think about the societal frameworks that restrict the acceptance of truth?

Couple Gupta believes that societal frameworks, such as morality and concepts of fairness, often restrict the acceptance of truth because it must fit within these established frameworks.

Outlines

00:00

🤔 Exploring the Concept of Truth

In this paragraph, Naval Ravikant and the unnamed guest, referred to as 'Couple Gupta', delve into the nature of truth. Naval starts by expressing uncertainty about the exact meaning of 'truth' and offers two definitions: one based on personal feeling and resonance, and another on its predictive power. The guest agrees with the feeling-based definition, emphasizing an immediate, visceral reaction that transcends intellectual understanding. They also discuss the social implications of truth, such as the candid remarks of children and the societal expectations that often discourage directness. The conversation hints at the idea that truth can be both self-evident and challenging to articulate, and that societal norms can sometimes hinder the acceptance of truth.

05:01

🔨 The Myth of Hard Work

The second paragraph shifts the focus to the concept of hard work. Naval challenges the notion of hard work as an end in itself, suggesting that it is often a result of anxiety and fear. He contrasts the romanticized view of hard work with the idea that it should be a means to an end, driven by desire and necessity rather than societal pressure. The guest agrees, noting that hard work is not a goal but a byproduct of pursuing something one truly wants. They also touch on the idea that efficiency and the right choices can be more important than the amount of hard work put in, and that societal values often misplace the emphasis on effort over results.

10:03

🎯 The Value of Desire and Alignment

In this segment, the discussion centers on the role of desire and alignment in achieving success. The guest argues that hard work is not something one needs to be told to do; rather, it is a natural outcome of having a strong desire for something. They emphasize the importance of doing what feels like play, as this is where one's superpower lies. Naval adds that people often fail not because they don't work hard enough, but because they don't truly want it or are not aligned with their desires. He shares an anecdote about an engineer who worked fewer hours but was more effective, illustrating that talent and alignment with one's work can be more important than the hours put in.

15:04

🚀 The Role of Experimentation and Leadership

The fourth paragraph explores the idea of failure and the role of experimentation in achieving success. The guest suggests that there is no failure, only experimentation, and that true failure is not reaching one's ultimate goal. Naval agrees, stating that people fail not because they don't work hard enough, but because they don't have a strong enough desire. They discuss the importance of speed of iteration and the role of leadership in inspiring desire in others. The conversation highlights the need for leaders to enable others to want to do something themselves, rather than simply managing them.

20:04

💡 The Misunderstanding of Talent and Compensation

The final paragraph addresses the topic of talent and its recognition in the workplace. The speakers discuss the concept of '10x performers' and the societal and systemic reluctance to compensate them accordingly. They argue that acknowledging and rewarding exceptional talent is crucial, but societal norms and expectations often prevent this from happening. The conversation concludes with a critique of societal constructs of fairness and morality, suggesting that they can be counterproductive and hinder the recognition and reward of true talent.

Keywords

💡Truth

In the context of the video, 'truth' is a central theme that both speakers attempt to define and understand. Naval suggests that truth is something that feels inherently right and resonates with us on a deeper level, beyond intellectual comprehension. Couple Gupta agrees, emphasizing the visceral reaction one might have upon encountering truth. The concept of truth is foundational to their discussion, as it sets the stage for exploring various aspects of life and work.

💡Hard Work

The term 'hard work' is a focal point in the conversation, with both speakers sharing their perspectives on its value and implications. Naval views hard work as an effect of having a strong desire to achieve something, rather than an end in itself. He criticizes the notion of hard work for the sake of appearing busy or out of fear. Couple Gupta expands on this by discussing how hard work can become a prescription that replaces the ultimate goal, leading to a misguided focus on the process rather than the outcome.

💡Efficiency

Efficiency is implied as a key concept in the discussion on hard work. It is suggested that being efficient can often be more valuable than simply working hard. The example of an engineer who works for a few hours a day but creates significant value is given to illustrate that efficiency and the right output can be more important than the number of hours worked.

💡Desire

Desire is presented as a driving force behind actions and achievements. It is posited that a strong enough desire will naturally lead to the necessary actions, which may be perceived as hard work from the outside. The speakers argue that a lack of desire, rather than a lack of hard work, is the root cause of failure.

💡Play

The concept of 'play' is introduced as a counterpoint to 'hard work.' It is suggested that what may appear as hard work to some can be enjoyable and feel like play to others, especially when it aligns with one's natural talents and interests. This idea is used to argue that finding and pursuing what feels like play can lead to greater success and satisfaction.

💡Talent

Talent is discussed as a critical factor that can surpass the need for hard work. Naval argues that talent, when combined with the right opportunities and efforts, can lead to significant achievements. The conversation suggests that society often overemphasizes hard work while undervaluing the importance of natural talent.

💡Iteration

Iteration is highlighted as a process that can lead to learning and improvement. The idea is that the speed of iteration—repeatedly going through cycles of experimentation and refinement—is more important than the mere accumulation of hours spent on a task.

💡Leadership

Leadership is touched upon as a quality that involves inspiring and guiding others rather than micromanaging. The speakers suggest that true leaders create a vision that others want to follow, which is more effective than dictating what others should do.

💡10x Performers

The term '10x performers' refers to individuals who can achieve ten times the output or impact of their peers. The speakers discuss the concept as it relates to the tech industry and the challenges of recognizing and compensating such high performers, often leading to them starting their own ventures.

💡Failure

Failure is redefined in the conversation as a part of the learning process rather than an endpoint. The speakers argue that 'failure' is often just an experiment that didn't yield the desired results, and it should not be seen as a negative outcome but rather as a stepping stone towards success.

💡Effort

Effort is discussed in the context of societal values and expectations. It is suggested that society often places too much importance on the appearance of effort, which can lead to a misallocation of resources and a misunderstanding of what truly drives success.

Highlights

Definition of truth as something that feels true and resonates with one's inner self.

Truth as having predictive power to accurately foresee the future.

Truth often felt viscerally before intellectual understanding.

Hard work is an effect of something needing to be done, not an end in itself.

Modern era offers infinite leverage, making judgment more critical than hard work.

Hard work is often done out of anxiety and fear, not genuine desire.

Hard work can become a game, replacing the ultimate goal.

Effort is romanticized by society, often misrepresenting success.

Nature and its elements do not 'work hard' but operate according to their own rhythm.

Talent matters more than hard work in the current era of leverage.

Speed of iteration is more important than hours spent on a task.

Desire and wanting something are more critical than just working hard.

Leadership is inspiring others to want to do something, not just managing them.

10x performers exist but are often not compensated as such due to social norms.

The belief that everyone can be anything leads to unhappiness due to unmet expectations.

People fail not because they don't work hard enough, but because they don't truly desire it.

The importance of aligning one's work with their passions to avoid suffering.

The idea that hard work is a door prize, used as an excuse for failure.

The role of a leader is to inspire a yearning for the vast and endless sea, not just to build a ship.

Transcripts

this is naval rabbikans i'm here with

couple gupta

and we're just having a conversation as

two friends who like to

explore topics fairly deeply uh

and in a way that we're just trying to

understand

the truth and the truth is a word that

gets thrown around a lot

um so i'm not even sure exactly what

that means

definition that i like to use is that

you know

there are multiple definitions in fact

this might be a good question how do you

know

when something is true in my mind very

often

i know something is true just because it

feels true to me uh

it feels very true you you know it when

you hear it even if you don't like it

another definition i've used is that

truth is that which has predictive power

you can use it to predict the future a

little bit uh the more

accurately you can use something to

predict the future the more true it is

but i'm sure you couple have very

different definitions so why don't you

give me a definition or two

of how you know something is true

i very much agree with your first answer

which is that it

it relates very much to feel oftentimes

when you hear truth

uh the the inner sensation that you get

of um of a resonance

is beyond the intellect and i think that

is a

a great sign because oftentimes

uh we'll feel something that someone

says and we'll feel it viscerally

as soon as it is said and we will have a

heart at the very same time

we'll have a hard time intellectually

framing it and understanding it

and that that is a very good sign that

something is true

because in very many ways we are beings

in spite of our intelligence

we tend to use our intelligence as

uh the the machinery with which to

process things

however that's a very limited domain

intelligence

and so when it cuts straight through

that into the essence of something

something within our core for which we

have receptors so to speak

um seems to grasp that and i think

that's that's a very good sign of truth

and and very often it can sometimes it

just leaves you silent sometimes it

actually creates an emotional response

especially if it's aimed at your

identity or your ego

you know like little kids have a way of

telling truth in a way that adults don't

like a little if you're fat and little

kids come up and say hey you're fat

right in a way that adults won't and

sometimes i can provoke

a reaction from an adult uh because

they're not ready for that that level of

truth you're not supposed to

go around saying society it's not

socially acceptable

anyway yeah i don't get caught up in

definitional games too much i wanted to

get into a specific topic

which is you recently wrote a discourse

about hard work

which i thought was really really

interesting um

and you know i have a bunch of views and

hard work

maybe i'll start off with a very high

level like i think hard work is

important

but i think hard work is an effect of

something that you

know needs to be done like if you need

to do hard work

to get something done that you care

about then you work hard

but a lot of what i see going on these

days is hard work for its own sake

and i think we live in a very different

era

than one that we evolved in we live in

an era of almost infinite leverage

and that means like when you are working

your decisions

mean they echo larger so there's code

working for you there's people working

for you there's money that's working for

you

so there's there's machines working for

you it isn't just that you're standing

there with your bare hands and tearing

at something your tools

were tool uh bearing the creatures and

so

because of all these tools available our

judgment matters much more than hard

work so even though i think

sometimes you do need to work hard you

should never shy away from it

if that's what it takes to succeed in

whatever you want i do think that it

gets overplayed in society so that's

kind of my

view on hard work but i think it's

probably a little more conventional than

yours

so i just wanted to explore it together

with you a little bit

how do you think about hartford

i think hard work is yet another example

of

a prescription to be honest with you i

think it's done largely out of anxiety

i think hard work is done largely out of

fear

i think one of the common things that

you will um

often hear in the world of sports and

business is that if if you're not

working hard and the next guy

is and if you're only putting in four

hours he's putting in 12.

and so hard work has become its own game

it's like meditation

meditation becomes a competition so the

thing that you were really seeking

actually becomes replaced by

the game of hard work and hard work like

effort

becomes sort of its own goal and

when and that seems to be the pattern

behind things is when you follow a

prescription

or an intermediary then that

intermediary tends to replace

the ultimate goal and that becomes your

new game so

hard work it isn't you know the person

who needs to work

hard will work hard but it isn't

that he needs to be told to work hard

and he needs to

strive towards working hard i think hard

work is

the result of something i think whatever

needs to be done when a person has

a sufficient and requisite degree of

desire

he will do and from the outside that

will come off

and reflect his hard work to those who

are looking but

but it isn't the opposite it isn't that

it isn't that if i work hard then i will

get this

because then that introduces what i call

a gap and that gap

is that i must introduce some step in

the middle

that i am being promised that if i if i

fulfill that step

that some powers that be or some some

force out of the universe

will grant me what i want because i have

satisfied

that step and i think that's that

is the default i think that is the

the way that everyone looks at things

and is being taught

to look at things um many things are

named and in the naming

problems exist and problems arise so

if someone wants to become the you know

arrive at the top of their field

you know does that mean that they don't

work hard

no but they would never view it as

working hard

they would view it as i will do whatever

needs to be done

to get there and i don't consider that

work

necessarily yeah consider that the

necessities

you know you look at the experts and to

them what what may look like hard work

from the outside to them is play from

the inside

that's right in fact one of the things i

really think people should focus much

more on is figuring out what feels like

play to them what looks like work to

others

that's right because that's your

superpower and that's where you'll just

outperform everybody

um you know i see with startups all the

time i see

lots of people who work really hard but

still fail uh

and often you know the most common

reason is they just pick the wrong thing

to do

uh the world is a big place it's very

hard to

figure out what's going to work before

it works uh product market fit this

thing that gets thrown around

uh coined by mark andreessen uh it's a

is a very difficult thing to achieve so

you're trying to predict what the market

wants you're trying to build a product

exactly to the market

and sometimes hard work alone won't get

you there i think what you choose to

work on

and who you choose to work with uh and

actually kind of

how badly you want it which is more than

just working hard or more important than

just the raw hours you put in there are

lots of people running restaurants and

uh you know kind of meat space

businesses not in the startup world who

outwork startup entrepreneurs

uh but yet they don't succeed or if they

do succeed with much lower numbers or

much lower magnitude

right and i i and i would say that

a large a large reason for that is

that society has been has been uh sold

romantic ideas romanticism is a very big

part of things um

society very much seems to value effort

effort is a big deal and effort is um

sort of a a um

sort of an arrival of sorts uh

for for society that look how hard i

work look how much effort i'm putting in

and therefore i'm doing

i am doing the right thing by by doing

that and

and the problem that arises from that

oftentimes is those who are very

efficient

are demonized because very often you

will find in

every domain those who don't work nearly

as quote hard

as everybody else but they get 10 times

the results

and they're considered to be lucky and

so i think

i think if you look at i like to pattern

things around nature and if you look at

nature

it doesn't work hard if you look at

gravity

it doesn't work hard if you look at a

tree and a leaf falling off of a tree

it doesn't work hard if you look at a

water going down a river it doesn't work

hard

so everything everything moves

according to its own rhythm and whatever

necessities are there

they're there and therefore they need to

be worked around

we're working hard is an added extra

romantic step

in order to put another feather in the

cap which says

i succeeded by working hard

yeah it's also i think there's a

sometimes i

also think of work as a set of things

that you have to do that you don't want

to do

if you want to do it it's not work so

example is like you know you might be

grinding at work for 10 hours

and it's it's suffering it's painful and

then you get home and to relax

you play video games but to an alien

watching from the outside playing a

video game is more intense than whatever

you're doing at work you're running

around with a gun shooting at people

you're jumping

over collecting mushrooms gold coins

whatever it is

that could be construed as hard work but

because you want to do it

uh because you can lose yourself in it

uh

it there's not suffering so i don't

think it's people get burned out on work

they just get burned out of work they

don't want to do

which is a form of suffering so not and

every

thing that you need to do not every step

of it is going to be pleasant of course

uh but it's really important to align

yourself and work where you're not

suffering so when i find like engineers

who are out trying to be sales people or

sales people who are out trying to be

engineers it's better to team up with

someone who really enjoys the other side

of it

uh and stick to what you're good at um

and you know team up so that that's

where that's why i think founding teams

are very powerful

where you have one person who can build

and one person who can sell

because then neither one feels like

they're doing hard work

each one is doing what they enjoy uh but

together the company

from the outside looks like it's working

really hard and as we know

in a billion dollar company the

employees aren't working any harder than

a million dollar company they're just

doing the right thing

and the right people are doing the right

things in the right way

and and i think one of

perhaps the the

the key element of hard work which i

must say is an elephant in the room

which is rarely discussed in the world

is that

hard work is considered to be a door

prize it seems to be sort of the

preparing of the bed of failure

i think that a lot of times hard work is

done in order

to have an excuse for the mind when the

mind comes attacking and says

how come you didn't make it and if a

person is armed

with the ammunition that i have worked

hard

then he has an answer for the mind

whereas if he just had on the couch

and did nothing he would not have that

ammunition so many times

people do hard work in order to have an

answer for the mind because they know

they're going to fail anyways

and externally if i'm an investor in a

company that fails the entrepreneur

worked hard that feels more forgivable

socially

than someone who's just like oh i tried

it i took a shot the market didn't want

it i gave up quickly

um i used to have an engineer uh who

worked for me

who was absolutely brilliant and uh he

would create great products

um and he would work an hour two hours a

day

and then he would very blatantly sit

around watching qriket matches

or playing uh counter-strike which was

this uh online game

uh while all the other people in the

office were just looking at him

and he just looked really lazy and

people complained to

me about him all day long but he added

tons of value by creating the right

product the right way at the right time

yeah so he could get away with it

and he didn't have this pretense of

sitting around the water cooler

and talking or going to meetings he

didn't want to waste time on those

things he

basically either enjoying himself or he

was working on what he thought was

effective

and i think his talent to some extent

allowed him to get away with it but

just given the the era that we live in

talent matters

so much more than hard work uh yeah and

he would exemplify that

yes and it's interesting because all the

books that have been coming out

in recent years from from outliers to

all the books related to talent being

secondary to hard work in the 10 000

hours

and everything it's the exact opposite

message

that that hard work supersedes talent

and i think that's a separate sort of

discussion but but there is you know

there is a truth to the fact that

um humans tend to do many things

in order to satisfy those who are

watching them

and they also do tend to do many things

in order to satisfy

the idea of having tried and

romantically failed

failure is also something that is

considered

not only okay but

almost lauded now you know

as i as i say these words i'm certain

that some in the audience

are getting ready to say that one must

fail in order to succeed

and quite frankly i've never looked at

that as failure i i've

when i when i say failure i've always

looked at it personally as

ultimate failure not getting to where

you want to go ultimately

everything besides that to me i call

experimentation i think everything is

everything is experimentation there is

no failure along the way

yeah i agree i mean especially i think

the speed of iteration

is what drives learning so you know in

gladwell and others they say 10 000

hours of grinding

i think it's quite that simple if i do

the same thing for 10

000 hours that's not going to be very

effective

if in 10 000 hours i run 100 experiments

that's great but it's not as effective

as if i ran a thousand experiments or

ten thousand experiments

so the speed of iteration matters uh

that said it's still not hard work alone

because i could play golf for ten

thousand hours and i would never be

tiger woods

tiger woods played golf for 10 000 hours

yes it was hard work but it was also for

the sheer love of it like he enjoyed

every

you know he enjoyed most of those days

most of those times

uh and it was sort of in his nature and

character by some point

to not look at hitting the the you know

golf length of hard work he looked at

that as the thing that he most wanted to

do that day

um so this idea of suffering and

sacrifice

all that's romantic and it levels the

playing field a little bit

i think it also misleads us it misleads

us into thinking that everybody can be

everyone

uh one interesting hypothesis i heard is

that in modern society

one of the reasons we have more unhappy

people is because of the myth that

everyone can be everything

excuse me so yeah so if you think you

can be uh you know larry page or steve

jobs or jeff bezos

or mark zuckerberg but you didn't make

it it's because you didn't work hard

enough and then you feel lousy about

yourself

whereas the reality is like their

talents uh intersected in the right way

at the right time and they put in the

hard work

uh for the thing that they were meant to

create and your talents are gonna

intersect in a completely different way

uh in a different place at a different

time and and a lot of life is just

searching for

uh what it is that you're uniquely good

at and

where and when to apply that thing

that's exactly right

the last line that you mentioned

absolutely i think is is the key

um i don't you know this

sort of may sound um sort of

really counterintuitive

but i don't think anybody fails because

of

not working hard enough i don't think

that that creature exists

i think that people fail because they

didn't really want it

i don't think that that a sufficient

degree of desire

exists in a given person but

because he just didn't do quote do

enough work that he failed i don't

really buy that

i think i would say that if he didn't do

the quote

work or do the leg work or do whatever

needed to be done

it's because the desire you gotta look

more upstream i think the desire wasn't

there

i don't think the desire is bursting

through you and you choose to hold back

that desire

and not do it i i don't i don't i don't

think that's the case

yeah i've i've always had a belief that

companies don't fail when they run out

of the cash

they fail when the founders and team run

out of energy

when they basically say okay we're done

here

at some level you have to give up on

something and just because

and it's pragmatic there are other

things that you want to do more by that

point

but if you have an unswerving desire to

do something then

usually you'll get it yeah although i

think i think in this modern age we tend

to have too many loosely scattered

imitative desires correct um there's

that great old chinese thing like

man who chases two rabbits catches none

yes

um so a lot of it is just about

cultivating your desire and being ready

well there there's the want with the

small w then there's a want with a big w

yeah i'm reminded that antoine is an

exuberant line where he basically said

something like

if you want to uh you know uh build a

ship and hit the high

seas then don't gather the men and start

giving orders and chopping the wood and

building a fire and

you know building a ship instead teach

them to yearn for the vast and endless

sea

yeah and and that is a lot of the role

of a leader it's to inspire people

absolutely another great definition i

once heard was that you know management

is telling people what to do

leadership is getting them to want to do

it themselves

correct yes i think a leader is far

more hands-off than what

sort of the business world tells him he

should be

i don't think it's about managing

anybody i think it really is

becoming someone that others look at

that leader

and see in him what they would love to

see in themselves

yeah i was actually talking to a founder

the other day of a company that's now

worth almost 10 billion dollars and he's

done

obviously quite well and i asked him

like what would you do differently if

you were doing it again

uh and he said he would micromanage

people less

which i thought was really interesting i

did not expect that answer i thought it

would be some

other answer about how he could have

been even bigger but he actually just

felt like he made a mistake by

constantly trying to order people around

and well and i think and i think and i

and i think it also matters how what you

just said is going to be heard

because oftentimes things are heard

through the lens of morality and right

and wrong and correct

and incorrect and good and bad and so

that might be heard as

you are right it is wrong to micromanage

people

you should leave them alone and and i

would say that

and i would say it's far more and i'm

sure that he meant it

this way as well that it's far more that

it wasn't that that was

quote wrong or immoral that that was

ineffective

exactly exactly yeah

uh you know so when we get to morality

for example

uh one of the things that silicon valley

likes to talk a lot about is 10x

engineers and now it's been broadened a

little bit to be a little more

politically correct 10x performers

but it is true that you can have

individuals especially when they're

leveraged through code

or capital like on hedge fund managers

or engineers or

even on the sales side where someone can

literally accomplish

10x what the next closest person in the

organization can and the easiest way to

see this as founders a founder can build

a company

one founder can build a company that's a

thousand times more valuable the next

founder

and so there's kind of this idea of 10x

performers

and obviously it can't be through hard

work because they're not doing 10x the

work that's impossible everyone's

working hard so then we pay lip service

it's idea of 10x performers

and everybody wants to hire them but

then we go around paying them 1x or 1.1

x or 1.2 x

because society doesn't want to hear

this idea of that you can actually pay a

10x performer 10x

so what happens is 10x performers all

end up leaving and starting their own

companies

because they're not getting paid 10x

otherwise the only way to do it

so we have a few socially acceptable

areas

where you can get paid 10x basically if

someone else is not making a decision

if you made it by yourself or for

yourself or you at least steered the

ship long enough

that you managed to capture more of the

value for yourself than you get to be a

10x performer

but i think one of the things that's

utterly broken in the startup ecosystem

is that we all know and acknowledge that

10x performers or higher 100x thousands

exist

especially within certain circumstances

and situations

yet we do not compensate them at those

levels because it is socially

unacceptable to do so

that one's worth covering another

discussion it's a longer discussion but

i think that

it's just an example of how uh you know

real truth

is hard to speak because it offends

people it hurts a sensibility

of equality it hurts a sensibility of

how the world ought to work

it hurts your sensibility of morality

but you can always fix things in other

ways it's better to

acknowledge how the world actually works

uh and then figure out maybe how you

want to change it as opposed to

live with your head in the sand and

everyone has to speak the same way in

the same language and the same coded

words

and you may actually end up just denying

how the world actually works that

process you end up deluding yourself

yes yeah i think that i think humans

seek truth to some degree so long as it

has conditions

it must fit within the framework already

established or it's not accepted

and so the so the problem isn't that the

truth is wrong

the problem is that there's too many

frameworks there's

you know every everyone's walking on

eggshells because

so many eggs have been created you know

morality

to what is correct what is right what is

what is fair

um then society societies and

institutions created around the very

idea of enforcing fairness you know

quite honestly the jungle in the wild is

far more

fair and equitable and moral

than any fabricated society in this

world

i think we'll end on that thank you

council

yes sir yes sir yes sir