How to Enjoy Doing Hard Things (ft. Ali Abdaal)

Summary

In this insightful conversation, Mark Manson interviews Ali Abdaal, a former medical doctor turned YouTuber and author of the book "Feel Good Productivity". They delve into the misconceptions around productivity, emphasizing that it's not just about hard work and suffering but can also be about creativity and enjoyment. Ali shares his journey from practicing medicine to finding success and fulfillment on YouTube, highlighting the importance of making work feel good and the power of experimenting with different approaches to life and work. The discussion also touches on the impact of societal expectations on personal goals and the value of seeking genuine happiness and balance.

Takeaways

• 🎯 Redefining productivity to include enjoyment and intentionality, rather than just efficiency.
• 💡 The importance of emotions in productivity and how emotional resistance can hinder progress.
• 🕹️ Balancing work with leisure and finding ways to make work feel less like a chore.
• 🚀 The concept of 'escape velocity' in entrepreneurship and the need for initial hard work to achieve long-term success.
• 🧠 The role of creativity in both learning and productivity, especially in fields like medicine.
• 🔄 The idea of reframing failure as a form of experimentation and data gathering.
• 🤹‍♂️ Incorporating fun and games into productivity systems to increase motivation and engagement.
• 📈 The impact of tracking progress and setting achievable goals for a sense of accomplishment.
• 🧩 Finding the right 'chess moves' for maximizing productivity and success.
• 🎮 Using personal stories and experiences to illustrate the principles of 'Feel Good Productivity'.
• 💼 The power of seeking forgiveness rather than permission and adding personal touches to work.

Q & A

What misconception does Ali Abdaal address about productivity?

Ali Abdaal addresses the misconception that productivity is solely about hustle, grind, and working long hours. He proposes a more holistic view where productivity is about using time intentionally, effectively, and enjoyably.

How does Ali define 'Feel Good Productivity'?

Ali defines 'Feel Good Productivity' as the practice of making productivity enjoyable. It involves using time well in a way that aligns with one's values and goals, and doing so in a manner that feels good and is sustainable.

What is the significance of emotions in productivity according to the discussion?

Emotions play a fundamental role in productivity. The resistance or motivation to do a task often stems from one's emotional state. If a task feels good and brings positive emotions, it's more likely to be done productively and consistently.

What does Ali suggest about the relationship between work hours and productivity?

Ali suggests that working more hours does not necessarily equate to higher productivity. He shares his realization that quality output is more important than quantity, and that beyond a certain point, the output diminishes in quality, making longer hours counterproductive.

How does Ali use his medical background to inform his approach to productivity?

Ali uses his medical background to inform his approach to productivity by applying the concept of teaching and making complex information understandable. He also uses mnemonics and categorization techniques to make memorization more creative and fun, which he applies to his YouTube content creation.

What is the 'optimal number of distractions' according to the study mentioned in the transcript?

The study mentioned suggests that there is an optimal number of distractions, represented by an N-shaped graph, where some amount of task-switching is actually beneficial for productivity. This contradicts the traditional view that one must focus exclusively on a single task at a time.

How does Ali approach the concept of 'failure' in the context of productivity?

Ali approaches the concept of 'failure' as a part of the learning process or as data gathering in the context of productivity. He encourages reframing failure as an experiment, where even unsuccessful attempts provide valuable information for future attempts.

What is the importance of finding the right 'chess moves' in productivity?

Finding the right 'chess moves' in productivity refers to making strategic decisions that can significantly impact one's success. It's about recognizing opportunities and making choices that can leverage one's efforts, rather than simply working harder.

How does Ali relate the concept of 'feeling good' to productivity?

Ali relates the concept of 'feeling good' to productivity by suggesting that if one finds their work enjoyable and fulfilling, they are more likely to be productive. He emphasizes the importance of aligning one's work with their values and interests to maintain motivation and joy in the process.

What advice does Ali give to students regarding rote memorization?

Ali advises students to find creative ways to make rote memorization more enjoyable. He suggests using mnemonics, visual associations, and categorization techniques to transform the process into a more engaging and memorable experience.

How does the conversation between Mark and Ali challenge the traditional narrative of success?

The conversation challenges the traditional narrative of success that often involves long hours, suffering, and sacrifice. Instead, Mark and Ali discuss the possibility of achieving success while maintaining a balanced and enjoyable life, emphasizing the importance of personal fulfillment and happiness.

Outlines

00:00

🌟 The Misunderstood Concept of Productivity

The paragraph discusses the common misconceptions about productivity, emphasizing that it's not just about hard work and long hours. The conversation with Ali Abdaal, a successful YouTuber and author, highlights the importance of making work enjoyable and the impact of emotions on productivity. Ali shares his journey from being a medical doctor to a content creator, stressing the value of creativity and the need to redefine productivity in a more holistic and enjoyable manner.

05:01

💡 The Role of Emotions in Productivity

This section delves into the significant role of emotions in productivity. It explains how emotional resistance or anxiety often prevents people from taking the right actions, and how the traditional approach of productivity advice often overlooks this emotional aspect. The conversation suggests that understanding and addressing emotions can be a key component in improving productivity and achieving goals.

10:01

🎮 Balancing Work and Leisure for Optimal Productivity

The paragraph explores the idea of balancing work with leisure activities, such as playing video games, as a way to enhance productivity. It argues that setting aside time for enjoyable activities can make one more productive in the long run. The discussion also touches on the concept of diminishing returns and the importance of recognizing when to take a break or engage in a different task to maintain high levels of productivity.

15:03

📚 Applying Productivity Principles to All Aspects of Life

This section emphasizes the application of productivity principles beyond work, including relationships and personal growth. It discusses the importance of intentional and effective use of time in all areas of life. The conversation also highlights the fallacy of suffering and sacrifice as a prerequisite for success, and the need to shift the focus towards making all aspects of life more enjoyable and productive.

20:04

🚫 Overcoming the Fear of Failure and Embracing Experimentation

The paragraph discusses the fear of failure and how it can hinder productivity. It suggests reframing failure as a form of experimentation and data gathering, which can lead to personal growth and improved outcomes. The conversation includes personal anecdotes and experiences that demonstrate the value of embracing failure as a learning opportunity and the importance of running experiments to find what works best in one's life and work.

Keywords

💡Productivity

Productivity in this context refers to the efficiency and effectiveness in which individuals use their time to achieve goals. It is not just about working hard but also about working smart and finding joy in the process. The video emphasizes the importance of redefining productivity in a holistic sense that includes enjoyment and intentionality. For instance, Ali Abdaal talks about his transition from medicine to YouTube, highlighting how he found productivity in making his work enjoyable rather than just focusing on the grind.

💡Hustle Culture

Hustle culture is a societal norm that glorifies hard work to the point of exhaustion and burnout. The video script criticizes this culture, suggesting that it often leads to an unsustainable and unhealthy approach to work and productivity. The interviewee, Ali Abdaal, shares his personal experience of rejecting the notion that hard work must be painful and instead champions the idea of making productivity fun and enjoyable.

💡Emotional Resistance

Emotional resistance is the internal emotional barrier that prevents individuals from taking the necessary actions to achieve their goals. In the context of the video, it is described as a fundamental aspect of productivity problems. For example, the reluctance to start a task or the tendency to procrastinate can be attributed to emotional resistance, which can be addressed by treating emotions as a core component of productivity strategies.

💡Intentional Time Use

Intentional time use refers to the deliberate and purposeful allocation of time to activities that align with one's goals and values. The video emphasizes that productivity is not just about the quantity of work done but also about using time in a way that is meaningful and fulfilling. Ali Abdaal discusses how he structures his time to include both work and leisure activities, such as playing video games, as a way to maintain a balanced and productive lifestyle.

💡Optimal Distractions

Optimal distractions are the beneficial interruptions that can enhance productivity by providing a break from focused work. The video discusses a study that shows a sweet spot for task-switching, where some amount of distraction can actually improve productivity. This concept challenges the traditional belief that zero distractions are necessary for maximum productivity and suggests that welcome distractions, such as social interactions, can contribute positively to one's work and overall well-being.

💡Compounding Returns

Compounding returns refer to the exponential growth of results or benefits over time, often due to the accumulation of small efforts. In the video, the concept is used to discuss productivity in terms of long-term gains, such as the impact of consistently creating content on a YouTube channel. The idea is that small, regular contributions (like posting two videos a week) can lead to a step change in output and success, rather than diminishing returns or plateauing after a certain point.

💡Emotional Systems

Emotional systems pertain to the internal mechanisms and processes that govern how individuals experience and respond to emotions. The video highlights the significance of emotions in productivity and personal development, suggesting that understanding and managing one's emotional systems is crucial for overcoming resistance and achieving goals. Ali Abdaal's book treats emotions as a foundational element within the framework of productivity, indicating that emotional well-being is intertwined with effective time management and goal achievement.

💡Life Audit

A life audit is a comprehensive self-assessment process designed to identify one's core values, goals, and priorities. In the video, the host mentions his '2024 Life Audit' as a tool for reflection and decision-making, which helps individuals determine what is truly important to them and how to allocate their time and resources accordingly. This concept aligns with the theme of intentional productivity, emphasizing the need for a clear understanding of one's objectives and values to lead a balanced and fulfilling life.

💡CrossFit

CrossFit is a high-intensity fitness program that incorporates various exercises and workouts. In the video, it is mentioned as an example of how gamification and community can transform an activity from a chore to an enjoyable experience. The speaker discusses how the competitive and supportive nature of CrossFit classes made fitness more engaging and fun, which in turn increased motivation and consistency.

💡Work-Life Balance

Work-life balance refers to the equilibrium between an individual's professional responsibilities and personal life. The video script discusses the importance of achieving this balance for long-term productivity and well-being. Ali Abdaal shares his journey from a traditional medical career to becoming a YouTuber, emphasizing how he found ways to make his work feel good and thus achieve a more balanced lifestyle.

Highlights

The conversation discusses the misconception that productivity is solely about hard work and suffering, and instead proposes a more holistic and enjoyable approach to productivity.

Ali Abdaal, a former medical doctor turned YouTuber and author, shares his insights on making productivity fun and enjoyable, rather than just focusing on hard work and suffering.

The idea that productivity can be redefined as using time intentionally, effectively, and enjoyably is introduced, challenging the traditional narrative of productivity.

Ali explains how he transitioned from practicing medicine to running a successful YouTube channel by making his work enjoyable and incorporating creativity.

The conversation emphasizes the importance of not working more hours just for the sake of it, and instead focusing on the quality and enjoyment of the work done.

Ali shares his personal journey of realizing that making his work fun was the key to his success, rather than just hard work and suffering.

The discussion highlights the idea that emotions are a fundamental part of productivity, and that addressing emotional resistance can improve productivity.

Ali talks about his book 'Feel Good Productivity' and how it addresses the emotional aspect of productivity, offering a new perspective on achieving success.

The conversation explores the concept of finding joy in work and how it can lead to greater productivity and success, rather than just grinding and suffering.

Ali and Mark discuss the importance of not taking work too seriously and finding ways to make even the most challenging tasks enjoyable.

The podcast episode encourages listeners to rethink conventional productivity myths and discover a path to genuine happiness and balance through their work.

Ali shares his experience of experimenting with different aspects of his work and life, such as working part-time as a doctor and full-time as a YouTuber.

The conversation touches on the idea that success doesn't necessarily mean working more hours, but rather finding the right balance and approach to work.

Ali and Mark discuss the importance of tracking progress and setting achievable goals to make work more enjoyable and productive.

The episode wraps up with a call to action for listeners to leave a rating or review for the podcast, and offers a free '2024 Life Audit' for those who do.

Transcripts

- If you're like me,

you've probably had periods in your life

where you romanticized working brutally long hours

while surviving the intense suffering that comes with it.

For me, it was starting my first business.

I distinctly remember falling asleep

with my laptop on my stomach

only to wake up six hours later

and immediately get back to work where I left off.

In a world that glorifies hustle culture

and emphasizes the grind,

it's easy to make the assumption

that hard work must fundamentally suck.

It's not supposed to be fun, we're told,

after all, if it was easy,

then everybody would fucking do it.

But what if it didn't have to suck?

What if it wasn't painful?

What if it was actually kind of fun?

Today I'm talking to Ali Abdaal,

a former medical doctor turned YouTuber

and author of the new book "Feel Good Productivity".

Ali graduated near the top of his class at Cambridge

and went into practicing medicine full-time in his 20s.

When he realized something both dumb and profound

that it wasn't very fun.

So Ali decided to make it fun.

And as a part of making it fun,

he created a YouTube channel

to share some of his ideas around making it fun.

Today he has more than 5 million subscribers

and runs one of the largest educational channels

in the entire world.

Ali has achieved incredible success

in two of life's most intensely demanding

and challenging domains.

Yet he claims that his success stems less from his hard work

and willingness to suffer and more from his creativity

and ability to make even the most intense drudgery fun.

In this episode,

we're gonna talk about how productivity

got its bad reputation,

how most of the so-called productivity advice

actually makes it worse.

We'll discuss why working more hours

isn't always more productive,

and how sometimes the most useful thing you can do

is not work at all.

We'll hear Ali explain

why the optimal number of distractions is actually not zero

and how he chooses goals in his life

to make failure impossible.

We'll also learn

how the biggest thing holding most people back

is that they actually take their work too seriously.

This episode is more than just a conversation.

It's a journey into rethinking

how we view work, time, and our lives.

It's about breaking down the barriers

of conventional productivity myths

and discovering a path that leads

to genuine happiness and balance.

But before we dive into the conversation,

I have a small request.

If you're tuning in today, please take a moment

to leave a rating or a review for the podcast.

Your support helps us grow

and bring more content like this,

along with more incredible guests like Ali.

Plus, as a token of appreciation,

if you send me a screenshot of your review of this podcast,

you'll receive my exclusive "2024 Life Audit" for free

just in time for the new year.

The "Life Audit" takes you step by step through a process

that I've personally used for over 10 years now

to zero in on the most important values in my life.

So I know exactly

what I wanna give a fuck about in the new year

and what I don't.

You can learn more by going to markmanson.net/audit,

A-U-D-I-T.

You just submit the screenshot of the review

and we will automatically verify and send the PDF to you.

Now, the Audit will show you what goals are worth pursuing,

and this episode will help you make

that pursuit more enjoyable,

thus increasing your chances of success.

So, without further ado, let's fucking get into it.

- [Announcer] Bro, do you even podcast?

Like, bro.

This is "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck" podcast

with your host Mark Manson.

(upbeat rock music)

- What do you think is the biggest thing most people

misunderstand about productivity?

- I think one of the big misconceptions about productivity

is that it's about a hustle, it's about grind,

it's about work, work, work.

You know, people sometimes are like, oh,

but like, don't you wanna be unproductive some of the time

and things, I was like.

And I guess it's somewhat semantic

because if people are defining productivity

as efficiency of getting work done, then okay,

I can see that.

I think I choose to define productivity

in a much more holistic sense.

To me, productivity is using your time

in a way that's intentional and effective

and enjoyable, ideally. (chuckles)

- [Mark] Yeah.

- And so to me, like for example, this evening,

I have an evening of alone time

where I'm gonna play "Baldur's Gate 3" on my MacBook

and I might even go and get,

pick up a gaming laptop for myself

because I've been salivating over

the Razer Blade 16 inch

and there's a store in LA that has it in stock.

And so I like to, that to me is productivity.

It's using my time intentionally and effectively.

'cause I'm playing on hard difficulty

and enjoyably 'cause it's gonna be fun.

And having that one evening a week where I play video games

to me is like, that's a dream.

That's what I've been trying to optimize for my whole life

and my 13-year-old self would be

having a field day if he knew that

this is where I've ended up where I can play video games.

That to me is also productivity.

And I think if we expand out the definition,

then we can start applying the principles of productivity.

Like the stuff that you and I talk about,

the stuff that Tim Ferriss talks about.

You can start applying the principles of productivity

to anything in life.

So I love optimizing my relationship

and like using principles of productivity

in my relationship.

It's like, how do we do this in a way

that's more intentional and effective and enjoyable?

And reading books about what makes relationships work

and regular rituals and check-ins and routines.

And we have a notion page for like our relationship reviews

and have done for the last two and a bit years.

That is applying productivity

to real life rather than just to work.

And so, I think people almost focus down too much

on just the work thing or the how do I get better grades

and not enough on, hang on,

I'm learning a set of skills here.

Let me just make my life better.

- I feel like people,

there's a tendency to fetishize suffering and sacrifice.

We tend to love hearing other people's stories

of all the shit you went through, how much you struggled,

all the setbacks you overcame.

Like that's very entertaining

when it happens to other people.

And we really admire that.

And so I think we kind of romanticize that in ourselves

and we think to do something great,

you have to struggle and suffer immensely and be miserable

and (laughs) force yourself

through all sorts of awful shit.

So what I love about this is

it's the first productivity book I've come across

that treats emotions as one of the fundamental systems

within an overall productivity framework.

And this is something that, like,

I would try to write this for years.

I would try to explain to people

that any sort of productivity problem

is fundamentally an emotional problem.

- Yep.

- Like, the reason, if you're not doing something,

it's because you don't feel like doing it.

It's not, there's no, it's not a software issue.

It's not like a lack of

tools or it's not 'cause you didn't get up early enough.

It's because there's some sort of emotional resistance

or anxiety that's preventing you

from taking the right actions

or modifying the behaviors you need to modify.

People don't like hearing that.

They like hearing, they want the tool,

they want the the system.

They want the morning routine.

Why do you think that is?

- Yeah, I think the emotional piece is so,

like I remember the first time I really came across

that idea was reading Steven Pressfield's "The War of Art."

And he calls it the Resistance with the capital R.

- Yeah.

- And like when I read that book,

it just sort of hit me like a ton of bricks.

I was like, oh my fucking God.

Like this is the thing.

Like he's just describing in like this whole book

exactly what I feel when I procrastinate.

It's this resistance.

And what it took for me to kinda get over that

was a recognition that the resistance

is an internal emotional thing

and almost treating myself like a system.

Whereas I think when it comes to kind of like,

even hearing you say that right now,

talking about emotions,

like the part of me that was reading

Lifehacker back in the day is thinking, oh, come on.

Emotions, like- - Yeah.

- What bullshit is this?

- Get over it. (laughs) - Right? Come on. (laughs)

And so many people I speak to

there's that thing of if I could just find the right tool,

if I could just find the right technique,

then I wouldn't procrastinate so much.

Or if I could just find the right meds

for my ADHD or whatever the thing is,

it seems to go in waves

in terms of what people think the magic bullet is,

but fundamentally it just comes down to this thing of

you're unproductive 'cause you don't feel like

doing the thing.

No one ever struggles with procrastination

watching Netflix or hanging out with friends.

- Yeah. - That's not a thing.

We struggle with procrastination when it comes to

writing that blog post or like studying for that exam,

or like doing that slightly boring,

annoying PowerPoint at work that we don't really want to,

or like asking our manager for a raise,

the stuff that feels, we feel that resistance.

And so part of the, part of my goal with the book

was to try and figure out, okay, cool,

we know that's a thing,

so therefore, what are the tools that we can use

to kind of treat emotions as something important?

Treat them sincerely

rather than thinking of it as like, oh, I'm just a pussy

because I'm not like grinding like David Goggins does

or whatever the narratives sometimes are.

- I think it also kinda taps into,

so, I think the big epiphany for me that I had,

and I think I had it writing my second book.

So my attitude in my first book was very much,

bro, you gotta fucking grind.

You gotta suffer.

You did nine hours yesterday, let's do 10 today.

Let's finish two chapters this month.

And I noticed that it started to backfire

that essentially I would get

four really, really good high quality hours out of myself

and then every hour past that would be low quality

or it would be a very mediocre output.

And then I realized that when you're writing a book,

mediocre output is actually worse than no output

because you have to go back

and either heavily edit and revise it,

which is just adding work for yourself

or you have to make a bunch of very difficult decisions

of whether to cut it, delete it, and so on.

So, I had this weird realization probably way too late

that at least in the context of book writing,

four really effective hours was actually more productive

than 10 moderately effective hours.

- Yeah.

- And when that unlocked for myself,

I started wondering where else that applied in my life.

Where else in my life am I,

is that the production curve actually,

not only is there diminishing returns,

but it's actually turning negative at a certain point.

- I totally vibe with this.

I think I am always on the lookout for areas of my life

that have that diminishing return, sort of,

kind of where the curve goes down afterwards.

I'm also always on the lookout for areas

where there's kind of compounding returns-

- Yeah. - Like for example.

But things like starting a YouTube channel,

the difference between making one video a week

and making two videos a week

is actually, it's a step change.

'Cause if you're able to do two videos a week,

you have twice as many chances for one of them to pick up.

And generally putting twice as much effort

into a single video does not,

again, depending on the channel, doesn't yield as much value

as putting that effort into two different videos.

And so, there comes a point where maybe

it takes you 20 hours a week to do one video,

but like you could do 30, 30 hours to get two videos

and actually that extra 10 hours then unlocks

an extra step change in output,

which then improves your odds at succeeding in the thing

rather than diminishes your odds at succeeding on the thing.

And so, I think there are some areas of life

where we have the diminishing returns

and others where we have the compounding,

but I think there are far more

where we have the diminishing than the compounding.

- Yeah. (laughs) - It's like, yeah.

And like balance is good.

It's like all writers fundamental,

like ultimately arrive at the four hour number as well.

- Sure. - I've yet to meet a writer

who say, who writes any more than four hours.

- Yeah, right?

- Or has done it for a long time

who has landed on number more than four.

It seems to be a thing.

- Yeah.

Well, I think there have been a lot of studies too on

just your average worker laborer.

It's the vast majority of their productivity

comes in the first four or five hours.

When they do studies on how much people get done

in like the corporate world,

hours five through eight, it's not much. (laughs)

- And then even the first four hours are like

filled with multitasking and distractions

and like, oh, grabbing a coffee with someone here and there.

And yeah, the whole day goes by

and I have these days where the whole day will go by

and I'd be like, I've written maybe 300 words

and I was aiming for a thousand today.

I'm like, how did I write 300 words in eight hours?

Like, what the hell?

Like, how did this happen?

And it turns out because well,

distractions and lack of focus,

and all the things that everyone struggles with.

- Do you think the optimal number of distractions is zero?

Do you think this concept that we're talking about

of how, like, having that day

to just play video games like let your brain wander.

Does that also apply on a micro basis

with say, checking your phone?

- Yeah.

We found a really cool study about this that's in the book

and weirdly, there's a graph

and it's sort of like an N-shaped graph.

There was a study, I think it was,

they got people to solve a Sudoku

and also to like in a different tab, do some other puzzle,

and also in a different tab do some other puzzle.

And they looked at like,

they were allowed to switch between the puzzles.

And they found that there was actually a sweet spot

that like some amount of switching between tasks

is actually good for you

rather than the traditional narrative,

which is that you must focus on one thing at a time

and exclusively that one thing at a time.

And so, there does seem to be

some kind of optimal number.

So, this is why like,

if I'm working on something

and someone will come along and talk to me,

I don't really let it faze me.

I think of these as welcome distractions in a way.

If I get a notification of like,

some news site that I wasn't really,

I didn't really care about and that derails me,

that to me is an unwelcome distraction.

- Yeah.

- The one thing I used to do at university

is prop my door open at all times

with a little shoe, door stopper thingy.

And so if a friend would come by

and disturb me and distract me for a few minutes,

that to me is a great thing.

Like, the point of university is to hang out with friends,

not really to study and maybe I was marginally

less efficient and less productive.

- Yeah. - But like those,

those like hallway conversations sometimes led to hangouts,

led to plans, led to interesting things.

Like that's kinda the point of life.

So I'm all about trying to find ways to leave the door open

or like work in a communal area

or something that allows surface area for serendipity

when it comes to interactions with people.

- Interesting.

Yeah, I used to be one of those people

who was a little bit religious.

I went through a phase, I should say of maybe three years

that I was very religious about those blocker apps

that like block out social media and news sites

and all the riffraff that you try to avoid

on a day-to-day basis.

And I guess, I don't know, a year or two ago,

I just kinda came to a conclusion that it was

to the core premise of your book,

it was, I was feeling bad.

I was almost like over invested

in being hyperproductive all the time.

And so, at some point I just turned them all off

and I'm like, well, I'll turn them on

if it's ever a problem.

And 90% of the time it's not really a problem.

- What you said there really resonates with me

because I'll change it if it's a problem.

- Yeah.

- Like I think that's like just a pretty chill way

to approach life.

That's like, I'll change it if it's a problem.

- So you've achieved two things

that are very difficult to do.

You've become a doctor

and you've become a successful YouTuber.

Those are also two completely different things.

One is a very creative entrepreneurial pursuit.

One is a very traditional,

bury your head in the books,

memorize a million things.

What are the skills that crossover between those two things?

- Two things.

Number one is an ability to stick with it for long enough

and number two is I think the ability to teach.

- Okay.

- One of the things that medical applicants often say

in their interviews is that,

when they're ask, "Why do you wanna be a doctor?"

There's a phrase "A doctor is a teacher."

Like you're trying to break things down,

you're trying to understand things,

you're trying to explain to patients,

but you're also trying to explain them to your colleagues.

You're trying to, running them by a senior.

You're trying to break some things down

in an explainable way.

You're also kind of teaching the people,

the juniors below you.

It's a very teachingy type thing.

And so, I think that's a skillset

that I've had for most of my life.

I would always be the guy helping kids out

with their homework.

And I did private tutoring when I was younger

as a way of making money off the internet,

being a medical student, being a doctor.

I would always try my best

to teach the people who are younger than me.

And when my YouTube channel started,

it wasn't an educational channel.

I actually started making musical song covers

and I wanted to be the next Kurt Schneider and Boyce Avenue

and these sort of YouTube cover artists that would

sing covers of popular songs.

So the first like five or six videos are still there

and it's those sorts of videos.

Like no one cared.

I have no musical talent.

Some of my friends were good at singing.

I was like, yeah, I'm gonna learn to play the guitar.

I'm gonna be a big YouTuber.

But it was only when I started actually using the fact

that I was pretty good at teaching

and making educational videos

that things started to take off.

And so I think like fundamentally,

like, I don't think I would've been successful

as a Mr. Beast or as an Airrack or as a Ryan Trahan,

or someone who's making

more entertainmenty, inspiringy type content.

But I managed to do well by being like, right guys,

today we're gonna talk about five ways

to do well in your BMAP medical school entrance exam.

Boom.

(Mark laughs) It was what I knew.

So that I think was a big part of overlap.

But I think the other thing that both medical school

and being a YouTuber teach you

is the ability to just stick with it for long enough.

Like medical school in the UK is six years

where for the first three years, at least in Cambridge,

you don't see any patients.

So you have no, like, real world contact with real people.

You're just in the books learning the science,

memorizing tedious pathways and stuff.

And again, finding a way to make it fun

was the real hack for me even when I was in medical school.

Similarly, YouTube, most channels don't succeed

unless you consistently make videos

every week for like two years.

And then at that point you start benefiting

from the compounding

and then you become an overnight success and all that stuff.

- Sure.

- And I think that is...

The skill of faith and patience,

faith that something good will happen

and patience to stick at it long enough to make it happen.

And honestly, I think it all comes back down

to feel good productivity.

If you find a way to make your work feel good,

you are more likely to be patient with it for two years.

If it doesn't feel good, you're like, fuck, why's my view?

Why isn't my YouTube channel blowing up after a month?

And obviously that's not gonna work.

- It also helps solve that conundrum of

how do you know when to stick with it

and how do you know when to quit and give up,

and stop chasing a pipe dream.

And it's, if you love it,

then who cares, right? - Exactly, yeah.

It's fun doing it for intrinsic reasons

rather than extrinsic reasons. - Totally.

- A reason, you're doing it for the sake of the thing itself

rather than the outcome that you're getting from the thing.

- Yeah.

- That's why I loved what you said

to me over lunch the other day

that like, if it's not fun, I'm not gonna do it.

And I was like, yes.

(both laughs)

That is a great place to be

once you're already successful.

- Oh, absolutely.

Until you're successful

I think the reframing is

I need to find a way to make it fun,

otherwise I'm not gonna do it.

- Yeah.

Well, you know what's funny about me

is I think I had that early in my career

and I think it's a big reason of why I became successful

because I was always just very,

I was very similar to you.

I was very uncompromising about

what I would write, the way I would write it,

the particular tone or style,

the subjects I would address.

And I think part of what kinda fucked me up

after "Subtle Art" became so popular was

just very big impressive corporation's,

name brands, celebrities,

all these people started interacting with me

and wanting to do projects with me.

And I didn't feel that liberty to, I was like, oh man,

I'm doing a feature film with Universal Pictures.

Like I can't fuck this up, you know?

Like I can't say these things.

And I think I lost touch with that for a number of years.

And as your book correctly points out, I got burnt out

'cause that's what happens

when you stop having fun with something.

If you're not completely aligned

with why you're doing something, you lose the joy

and you lose the momentum

that keeps you going through the hard times.

I wanna ask you really quick,

while we're talking about medicine versus YouTube,

how is the production function different

between creative work

and say kind of rote memorization, studying science,

learning?

- All of it is creative work.

- All of it. - This is another thing

that students always get wrong.

Like this is my biggest piece of advice

for a lot of students.

Like sometimes you do have to rote memorize

like the Krebs cycle.

- Yeah.

- And one way to do that is to just continue

to drill it again and again.

The other way of doing it is to create a mnemonic

or something fun, or like a cool way of thinking about it.

And I, so actually before starting medical school,

I read loads of books about memory

and the like world champion memory,

people who like memorize decks of cards

and 18,000 digits of pi and all that shit.

- Yeah.

- And basically all of them were like, yeah,

you just need to create a really strong association,

like a strong visual association in your mind.

And the more absurd that association is,

the more likely you are to learn the thing.

And so even now,

like when me and my medic friends get together,

we'll like joke about the ways

that we used to memorize things.

Like, ah, isoniazid gives you peripheral neuropathy

'cause isoniazid, the drug, sounds kinda like ISIS

and ISIS famously chop your hands off if you do bad things.

So it's like, imagine like (Mark laughs)

peripheral neuropathy is like isoniazid.

Or like, I don't know, ethambutol sort of

makes your wee orange because etham has the word ham in it.

And if you think ham, it's sort of like pink

and pink is sort like orange.

So it's like you get like orange wee.

And that was how me and most of my friends

got through the rote memorization of medical school,

which is a highly creative task.

- Yeah.

- Or like making cool mnemonics

to like memorize all 12 cranial nerves.

Like, there's various rude versions of them.

It's like on they traveled and found various

something and horcruxes.

It's like gives you all the nerves of the face and stuff.

It's like, shit like that that makes it fun,

it's a creative act.

Finding a way to, another kinda tip,

if any student's listening to this to categorize things.

Hematology is like the study of the blood,

it's like a huge field.

But like if you look at all 100 conditions in hematology,

you can basically categorize them into three things.

Like great, that simplifies it.

Now within those three things,

you've got categories for like four things.

And like the textbooks won't tell you this

'cause they're sorted in fucking

alphabetical order for no reason.

(Mark laughs)

So you just have to like, look at the shit

and be like, okay,

what's the sensible categorization of this?

Oh great.

There's like anemia, there's malignant heme,

and there's like a non-malignant heme, great.

Those are the three categories,

bang, bang, bang, three structures.

And it's also creative and also fun.

And now when I speak to medical students,

the ones who are like,

"Oh man, medical school's such a grind.

But once I be a doctor, it's gonna be fun."

I'm always like, oh, we need to talk

because if you're finding medical school a grind

where going into the hospital is optional,

you are not gonna find being a doctor fun

where suddenly going into work is no longer optional.

And I will always try and encourage students,

find a way to make whatever you're studying feel good,

find a way to make it fun because that is an attitude

that will help you learn the thing better

and also make me and you less stressed,

and also make you enjoy life more.

- Yeah. - I'm just like massively.

- It's remarkable that you still (finger snaps)

have to recall all that stuff

10 years later. - It's the visual

metaphors and imagery.

- The fun thing for me

I find it in my own life particularly useful

around fitness and health

because like most people I think

I found fitness to be just a fucking bummer. (laughs)

- I'm struggling with this right now.

Like, help me figure this out.

- Yeah, so it's the thing that unlocked it

and I'm not a huge CrossFitter,

but I, I visited a couple CrossFit classes

and it completely, I mean, it's like

the first section of your book

could basically just be kind of a guide

to like why CrossFit works.

Because they gamify everything.

They put you in teams and they track scores

and help you try to best get new PRs

and do all this stuff.

And it was the first time

my associations with fitness and working out,

it was always just this drudgery.

It was like, oh, well yeah, I'm doing this today

because I don't wanna fucking die when I'm 60.

All the stuff that you read about

or I wanna lose 10 pounds before summer.

And it never felt good.

It was never fun.

It felt like an obligation.

It felt like a chore.

It felt like a lot of it was shame-driven

or judgment-driven.

And then I went to some of those CrossFit classes

and I had the hardest workouts of my life.

Like, I was literally laying on the floor.

(Ali snickers) You know?

Like world swirling above me, barely remaining conscious.

And I'm like giggling with how much fun I had.

And it was such an epiphany to me of just like,

turn it into a game,

turn it into a little competition with yourself,

invite friends over.

Like, I used to be so rigid and structured

about like a workout program, right?

Like I'd go, I'd go online and find like this,

oh, this is the workout program

that's gonna help you build 10 pounds of muscle

in the next three months.

And I'm like, oh man, I gotta do this.

I gotta like show up every day.

And again, back to that point of

I used to think you had to hit every workout

exactly the way it's listed

at exactly the day that you're supposed to do it.

And I realized like, if you miss a day

or if you have to push it back a day,

or maybe a friend is coming into town

and he's got a workout program, you're gonna do it together.

Or maybe like, he likes to run,

so maybe I go running with him

instead of my workout that day.

It keeps it fun and interesting and novel

and that keeps the motivation going.

It keeps the excitement going.

Tracking was another huge unlock for me.

I never tracked my workouts in the past.

I was just kinda, again,

I would download some list off the internet

and just like follow it to a T like a fucking robot.

And when I got a tracking app

and I started putting in all my lifts and all my weights

and how many reps I did of everything.

And every single week when I open up that app,

when I start my workout, I'm like, okay,

last week I did three sets of eight at this weight.

Today I'm gonna try to do three sets of nine

and see if I can do it.

And that just, that little bit of competition with myself

gets me through that set,

gets me excited about it.

When I hit it, it feels good.

Yeah, it's been incredibly profound.

And it's, again, it's one of those fucking obvious things

like and I hate shit like this

because it's when you have to take your own medicine,

like it's the advice that you've written about for years

and you never applied in your own life.

But it's been really transformative the past couple years,

for sure.

- That's so I've been struggling with motivation

or consistency on the fitness front for literally years.

And it was, again, when I was reading the audiobook

for this a few months ago, I was like.

(Mark laughs)

My god, like literally,

I have not thought about applying this principle to fitness.

- Yeah.

- And just like find a way to make it feel good.

And if you've tried all the things and it doesn't,

then like change it up and try something else.

- Yes.

- So I've been thinking in the back of my mind,

I really wanna try CrossFit

because there's so many examples from CrossFit of like

how they used all these strategies and stuff.

- Yes.

- And I've yet to try CrossFit.

- I didn't stick with CrossFit.

I actually found CrossFit too intense,

which a lot of people run into that issue

and a lot of people get injured and things like.

Like what I noticed when I was doing CrossFit

is I would go so hard that I would feel exhausted

for the next 48 hours and it actually dampen my energy

'cause I was overexerting.

So in many ways it's almost like the problem with CrossFit

is it's too effective.

It like gets you going too hard.

It is such a worthwhile experience

just to go experience the community.

The community's amazing.

People are, they're so positive there.

Like it's very, doesn't matter.

Like there'll be a dude next to you who's lifting 400 pounds

and you're like struggling to get the bar off the ground

and people are cheering for you

just as hard as they're cheering for that guy.

There's like no judgment.

Everybody's super positive so. - Oh, nice.

- Thumbs up, CrossFit.

- Yeah, I would absolutely check it out.

- So, this is something that comes up a lot

with my readers and fans, and I'm curious,

it just occurred to me that there might be an analog

in the productivity world as well.

But like, I've actually, over the years

I've come to the conclusion that

in kind of the self-help personal development space,

there's actually secretly

two separate categories that are going on.

And I think a lot of people get them mixed up,

which is the first one is advice

that takes you from bad to okay, right?

So it's like, if you're depressed,

here's some things you can do to like

help you not be so depressed.

But then there's also advice

that takes you from okay to great.

If you're just kind of a normal person

going about their life,

but you wanna do something really amazing and special,

here are four things that you can try

to like make your life way more effective.

And I find there's so much confusion in my world

and readers and people who follow other people

in this space,

they see the bad to okay advice

and they mistake it for okay to great advice.

They'll be like, oh, well that's obvious.

Like, everybody knows that.

I'm like, well, yeah, it's not meant for you,

it's meant for the guy who can't get off the couch

or it's okay to great advice,

but it's misconstrued by people being like

well, that's not gonna help me

get over my crippling anxiety.

Like I can't even do this or that.

- Nice. - I wonder if there's

an analog in the productivity space

because a lot of what we're talking about is mitigation.

It's almost like mitigating unproductivity

rather than maximizing productivity.

- Yeah. - It's like making sure

you're not falling below 80%

rather than killing yourself trying to get to 99%.

- Oh, I really like this.

I've not thought of it in this way,

but that, I think there are definitely analogs.

One thing that comes to mind is like bad to okay

is often about the basic obvious things

and often about the hardware,

like sleep, exercise, nutrition.

- Totally.

- If you're depressed, just like

people have done the studies on this.

Sleeping eight hours a night,

doing some exercise every single day,

having some social contact and like, about it. (laughs)

And like eating well is like-

- That solves like 80% of it. - Gets you more-

- It solves 80% of it.

The other 20% is like whatever.

So for someone who's depressed worrying about

maximizing their typing speed or keyboard shortcuts

or bashing and all that shit that we'd have to talk about,

like, it's kinda meaningless.

But to go from okay to great,

you still have to have the basics done

because the basics will derail you immediately.

- Yeah. - Like you can have the best

productivity hacks in the world,

but if you're sleeping three hours a night,

obviously it's not gonna work.

And so you have to do the basics well,

the basic fundamentals, the boring fundamentals,

and then you can start adding stuff on top of that.

But recognizing that, like, I think,

like that point you made at the start,

like the people with billion dollar businesses

are not really working that much harder

than the people with million dollar businesses.

Even though there's a huge difference

between billion and a million.

They're just doing different, playing different chess moves.

Yeah.

And so, going from, I think going from okay to great

is often about finding the right chess moves

rather than really about working harder.

Because if you have the basic fundamentals

and you're operating at 80%,

and you find an area of the market

where your business will just a 100X by default,

by virtue of being in that market,

like trying to sell to people with money

rather than trying to sell to broke students.

You could do the same amount of work

and still play video games and still have a great life,

but also make tons and tons of money.

- Yeah.

- And so those are now the stories that I look for

and I enjoy.

I don't really vibe with stories of like, oh my God,

I struggled so much and I suffered so much.

I love the stories when someone's like, you know what,

I was working on this for a few years, it was really fun.

I had a really balanced life,

spent time with my friends and family,

played some video games

and also the thing was successful.

- Yeah. - I love that shit.

I'm like, great.

That is the person we should aspire to be

rather than Muhammad Ali is like,

"I suffered every day for 10 years

and it was worth it to become a champion."

It's like most of us I don't think wanna suffer for 10 years

just to become a a champion.

- Have you read the new Elon Musk book?

- I have not.

It's on my Audible at the moment.

- Oh man. It is a wild ride.

It is an absolute wild ride.

He is everything you expect times 10.

But it's funny because he is totally that person.

I was actually surprised

how few takeaways there are from the book

because I don't think what he does is reproducible at all.

Or if you tried to reproduce it,

you would make yourself so miserable

that I'm not sure you would even wanna do that.

Like, he is that guy who is

18 hours a day on the factory floor

screaming at people.

- Yeah.

- Like involving himself in every little decision

and it, you could see,

he's like not a happy person. (laughs)

- Yeah, he describes entrepreneurship

as like chewing glass or something.

- [Mark] Yeah.

- And I've never felt like

entrepreneurship is chewing glass,

but obviously I'm not trying to get people on Mars.

I'm just trying to build a-

- (laughs) You're just making YouTube videos.

- I'm making bloody YouTube videos,

trying to build a lifestyle business,

trying to make time to play video games,

hang out, hang out with people in LA.

(Mark chuckles)

And so, yeah.

Different strands of entrepreneurship.

One gets you to Mars,

the other one gets you a couple of YouTube videos.

(both laughs)

But one leads to what I would describe,

you know, I'd recommend entrepreneurship

for a lot of people.

Elon Musk would not recommend

his branch of entrepreneurship for almost anyone.

- No and he actively doesn't actually.

There's a great moment in the book where, I don't know,

he goes through like some crazy drama at SpaceX,

loses his mind,

and then immediately has to get on a plane

and fly to Asia for like some big conference.

And he gets there and it's a room full of founders

and business owners who are there to hear him speak.

And the first question is,

"This is a room full of 2,000 people

who are inspired by you and who wanna learn from you.

Like what is the best piece of advice

that you can give us to be as effective as you are?"

And he just looks at him and says, "Don't."

It's like you don't wanna go through what I go through.

(laughs)

And by that point in the book,

you've read enough of the book that you're like,

yeah, don't, don't.

(laughs) Don't do it.

- I do wonder though, this like,

when I interview people on my pod,

I always ask the question of like,

once someone is post-success,

they're always preaching work-life balance.

- Yeah.

- But I wonder, I always wonder like,

could they have achieved that level of success

while also having work-life balance?

Or is it a phase that everyone has to go through

where there is always a phase of grindiness or whatever

and then on the other end

you stop preaching work-life balance?

- I don't think so.

Rich people they go through 10 years

of grind, failure, suffering, struggle,

come out the other end, balance their lives,

become very healthy and happy,

and then turn around and tell everybody else

that they should be balanced, healthy, and happy.

And it depends what you're trying to do, right?

Like I think if you are in a more conventional career path,

I think there's a lot to be said

maybe about work-life balance.

If you are doing something entrepreneurial

there seems to be an escape velocity phenomenon

where you need an immense amount of force and pressure

to get off the ground and to get into orbit.

And then once you're in orbit,

you can kinda ease off a little bit.

I don't know if you can escape that though.

- Yeah.

So my way of squaring this conundrum was to

and I think I recognize this fairly on, fairly early on,

which is why the book is called "Feel Good Productivity"

is to be like, okay, I need to do lots of work

to make my business successful and be financially free.

Great, let me find a way to make that work feel really good.

And I'd get home from work when I was working in my day job

and I would look forward to editing a video.

And on days where I didn't look forward to editing a video,

I would find a way to make editing the video.

I would, the stuff I talk about in the book,

like play, power, people,

find a way to do it in a slightly different way.

Find a way to level up the transition or the animation.

So random shit like that I found as a way

to make, almost convince myself that editing a video

for four hours in the evening was actually more enjoyable

than watching Netflix for four hours in the evening.

And I would have friends being like,

"Look Ali, you know, you're working too hard and shit."

And so, I used to be addicted to "World of Warcraft"

back in the day. - Yeah.

And so I went back into well, got a gaming pc

'cause I was like, okay, I can afford it now,

bought a gaming PC, played some well.

And I'd find myself more drained

at the end of a gaming session

than I would by the end of an editing session

because I found a way to make the process so enjoyable.

And from all the research,

interviewing a bunch of people and reading a lot

in preparation for writing the book,

a lot of successful people seem to land

at the thing of like,

the way to do something consistently

is to find a way to make it feel good.

- [Mark] Yeah.

- And if the thing gives you energy,

then you kind of want to do it.

You don't just wanna scroll TikTok,

which is not a thing that really energizes anyone.

- Yeah.

So let's talk specifically

about what constitutes feeling good.

Because my fucked up head

as soon as I see "Feel Good Productivity,"

I'm like, oh, cocaine.

Of course.

I'm gonna get a ton done. (laughs)

Like where is that line

between feeling good about the work you're doing

and distraction or indulgence?

- I think if the thing is feeling good

and moving you in the direction

of the work you wanna be doing, then great.

If the thing is feeling good

and moving you away from the work you wanna be doing,

then that's not so good.

Or feeling good but moving you away from it

in terms of like the rest of your life.

- There's like a sustainability aspect.

- Yeah, there's absolutely.

And so the final three chapters of the book

are all about sustainability.

Broadly anything that feels good,

that moves you towards your goal is a good thing.

I am a big believer of small little tweaks.

Like Tim Ferriss asked that question,

"What would this look like if it were easy?"

And I think that's a great question.

I ask myself that a lot.

I ask myself a slightly different question,

what would this look like if it were fun?

Like what does a more fun version of a podcast look like?

What does a fun version of editing look like?

What does a fun version of writing discharge summaries

look like when you're a junior doctor?

And asking myself that question is like,

what does it look like if it were fun?

while I'm writing my discharge letter,

let me add a few jokes here and there.

It's gonna be a real life human reading

this letter on the other end.

Let me just say something nice about this patient's cat

because it's just kinda funny

and like, doctors don't do that

'cause it's too straight-laced and too boring.

It's like, it's gonna make the writing a little bit nicer.

Let me use my creativity a bit

when writing this patient's like discharge summary.

Little tweaks like that move me in the direction

that I want to go.

I finished this discharge summary

but just make the process more fun.

So it's not a case of doing cocaine and writing it,

it's a case of like adding a few jokes about

the fact that this patient has been very disappointed

because Chelsea lost the game recently

or whatever the thing might be.

- Yeah.

- It's just like lame, lame dad jokes

that make things more fun sometimes.

- I feel like a lot of people find that difficult perhaps

because they worry about doing something differently.

They worry what other people are gonna think.

If I comment on somebody's cat on the discharge form,

what if they don't like that?

What if they complain to my supervisor?

What if the other doctors look at me weird?

How does that factor into this?

- (laughs) Yeah.

I think people just overindex way too much on thinking.

There's just too much seriousness.

(Mark laughs) Way too much seriousness.

- Like there's that quote from Alan Watts,

"Don't be serious, be sincere."

And it's like, the way I think of it

is I imagine myself in that position.

If I were a GP, general practitioner,

reading a discharge summary

and someone made a comment about the cat,

I'd have a little chocolate,

it would make my day because everything else I've read,

it's just been boring as fuck.

- Yeah.

- I used to give this advice to students

when you're studying for exams.

If you're writing essays,

you just wanna imagine the poor examiner.

They're having to like, empathy for the examiner.

They're having to read 500 of these

shitty pieces of writing.

- Yeah.

- Give them something to chuckle about.

They're gonna give you the top grade immediately

because you've just made their life a little bit better.

You know, you have nice handwriting,

maybe you use a little pink highlighter or something

just to make it a little bit more pleasant.

I think people over index on this way too much.

I'm also a strong believer in seeking forgiveness

rather than permission.

So I started incorporating jokes into my discharge letters

and the only comment I ever got was actually

a written compliment from a GP

who emailed the hospital staffing department being like,

can I just say this is the best

discharge summary I've ever seen.

And that was a commendation on my CV.

(Mark laughs)

That was sick.

But you know, there were times where I also,

I made a video and I was a bit too blase about data security

and the way that I spoke about patient data and stuff.

And so someone complained to the hospital

and I was like, ah, okay, let's not do that again.

So most things are not,

it's not like they're gonna fire me immediately.

They're gonna be like, hey man,

be a bit less blase about data security.

And I'm like, yes, that's a very good point.

I should have been less blase about it.

So usually these things are not that like life or death-

- Yeah. - Or not that like important,

but we treat them with such importance.

I think also when giving presentations at work,

people are boring as fuck when giving presentations at work.

But the most effective presentations

are the ones that start

with a bit of a joke. - Of course.

- Take it a bit less seriously.

- Of course. - Lightens everything up,

gets the energy and the mood going.

Whereas when you see someone who's like so timid

and so like, I have to be professional,

just sucks the joy out of it.

- Yeah.

- And everyone wants more energy in their life.

- It's funny because the classic

caring too much what other people think,

I think not only does it kill fun,

it attacks that issue that we started off with,

which is knowing what to optimize for in the first place.

I personally interact with a lot of readers

and listeners that they feel very lost in life.

Like they don't know

what they should be pursuing in the first place.

And when you really drill down deep,

it's because they've spent their entire life

trying to please the people around them.

You know, it's like mom and dad wanted me to be a lawyer

so I went to law school.

And then I got a job at this firm

and they wanted me to take on these sorts of cases.

So I took on these sorts of cases

and then I needed to move into a bigger apartment.

So I had to work on this team

but I don't like the people on the team.

And next thing you know, they have an entire life

that has been structured around

other people's wants and desires.

And not only are they not addressing

their own wants and desires,

so they're out of touch with

what they should be optimizing for.

They've never actually taken that time to experiment

and discover who themselves are

so they don't even know what they like.

Like they know they don't like being a lawyer

but they don't know what they would like otherwise.

And so again, it's this really deep intersection

between emotions and productivity, optimization,

achieving goals, whatever you wanna call it.

It's such a cliche thing to say like,

oh, stop worrying about what other people think.

It's as the years go on,

I'm consistently surprised and impressed

at how deeply this affects people

and kinda fucks everything up for them.

- That's so true.

Yeah, as you were saying that, I was kinda thinking like,

that's definitely the experience

that I've seen from other people

and I was wondering why

I personally didn't have that so much.

And I think all of it can be basically traced down

to Tim Ferriss, basically. (both laughs)

Ever since I discovered the freaking "4-Hour Workweek"

and realized the life that's possible,

the whole like new rich thing,

the whole like, wait a minute.

Think about what you actually want from your life

rather than following the script

and assuming when you retire at 65

with osteoarthritis in both of your knees,

you'll suddenly be happy

sipping cocktails in a beach in Thailand.

One, One of the core insights from it,

which is not like a highlight,

it's not one of the top level highlights

that people normally say.

It's just the idea of running experiments

and testing hypotheses.

Like I was just signing up to go to med school for six years

and then training for 10 years

for the sake of being a consultant when I was 40.

And I hadn't really considered that path

beyond like two days of work experience

and the fact that everyone I knew was a doctor.

And so, after reading "The 4-Hour Workweek,"

I started asking people

who were 10 years ahead of me in their careers,

are you happy?

What are you up to?

Like would you change anything?

My favorite question, if you won the lottery,

how would you spend your time?

- [Mark] Yeah.

- Would you still do medicine?

And then half of the people would say

they would leave immediately.

- Wow.

- One guy even said he'd leave

in the middle of the operation.

- Oh my God.

(both laughs)

Good luck. (laughs)

- He was like, yeah, my dream is to coach

my son's like football team 'cause he loved football.

There this is soccer. - Yeah.

- And the other half of the people said

they would continue medicine but they'd go part-time.

I've never met anyone

who enjoys working at hours a week as a doctor.

It's just not fun.

- Yeah. - I've met people who enjoy

working 30 hours a week as a doctor,

maybe even 40, but not 80.

80, like doing anything for 80 hours a week is just not fun.

And I would always ask those people, it's like,

okay, well what's stopping you from going part-time?

And it would always be money.

Well, I've got a mortgage with kids,

like bills and all that shit.

And so "The 4-Hour Workweek" gave me that language,

gave me that like mindset shift to be like, oh fuck,

if money is the problem

and the people 10 years ahead of me in their career

are not having fun,

I need a way to make money.

- And so, I think that's such a really great takeaway,

the find people 10 years ahead of you on your current path

and ask them how they feel,

what their current problems are,

what their regrets are, or what anything they would change.

Like it's one of those things that is

once you hear it said is so obvious

but I've never heard anybody talk about that before.

- I think that has, that attitude of experimentation

has pervaded every aspect of my life.

Like we've got 54 actionable tips in this book,

all of them are framed as experiments

because it's like the idea is try this experiment,

see if it works.

Once my YouTube channel has started to make money,

my hypothesis was always,

Hey, I'll be a part-time doctor and a part-time YouTuber.

I've named my course the Part-Time YouTuber Academy.

It was all about, I still really enjoy medicine,

it's still really fun.

Wanna be a part-time doctor.

And then I kind of realized, wait a minute,

before I sign up to a eight-year residency program

and try and go part-time,

let me just experiment with a few extra shifts

to see what it's like being a part-time doctor.

And for about two weeks I did extra shifts

in the emergency department.

This was when I wasn't working

so I would do like two days a week or something.

And every 10 minutes I was thinking, why am I here?

What am I doing right now?

The dingy emergency department, there's no natural light.

I could be in a really nice WeWork right now

with my team making YouTube videos.

That's so much more fun.

Why am I here?

And after two weeks of this I realized, hang on,

I've just tried out this experiment,

this part-time doctor, part-time, YouTuber life.

I've realized fuck this. (chuckles)

- Yeah. (laughs)

- It's so much more fun being a full-time YouTuber.

- Yeah. - Oh my goodness.

Wow, that two week experiment

has now changed the course of my life

because now I'm not worrying about

applying to the US for a residency program

and spending three years preparing for the exams and stuff.

But if I hadn't run the experiment,

I would've thought, well, of course,

theoretically being a part-time doctor's one

because these doctors I've spoken to say it's reasonable

and it's good to call myself Dr. Ali Abdaal,

and have the title of the book and all that shit.

But I ran the experiment and I was like, nope, not for me.

Ran the other experiment of what's it like

being a full-time YouTuber?

That's really fun.

Ran the experiment of what's it like

to have a team of 20 people not fun.

(Mark laughs)

More fun having a team of 10,

10 is a good number, 10 to 12.

That was really fun and it continues to be really fun.

And even now it's like everything in life,

I almost treat like an experiment.

I said to my team this morning,

we had like an all hands team meeting.

The experiment we're trying for the next three months is,

what does it look like

if I only make a video when I feel like it

rather than on a schedule?

Don't know, let's see what happens.

Let's run it as an experiment.

We'll see.

Best case scenario, experiment works out

and I realize I've got more joy in my life.

Worst case scenario experiment doesn't work out.

I get more data.

It's not really a failure, it's just an experimental,

it's an experiment.

Even a failure is useful data.

And then I can inform the way I live my life.

Experiments around like, huh, I wonder if it would be fun

to, I don't know, try running every day.

Try that for a couple weeks, see what happens.

I just, I'm just all about experimenting with life

and over time, landing on a nice place.

But even then, like the place we land

where we feel happy and fulfilled as we grow older,

people say, the things that brought you happiness

and fulfillment when you were younger

don't necessarily do it again.

And so, all of life is basically this sort of

running bunch of different experiments,

having fun along the way

and sort of meandering your way to some sort of,

sort of fulfillment or something like that.

- Something, yeah. Yeah.

The framing of it, the framing of life as experimentation

is I think is incredibly powerful as well

because it removes the stigma of failure.

There's no such thing as failure,

there's only information, right?

It's like, okay, we ran an experiment.

I tried working overtime for a month as an experiment to see

and it didn't go well.

So that's information that's,

it removes the mindset that you have

to succeed at everything you try

or that everything has to go well all the time.

It's the only metric of success is simply feedback.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- There's a story that I talk about in the book.

There's a YouTuber called Mark Rober

who used to work at NASA, then worked at Apple

and now he's like a science educator on YouTube,

and he ran a really fun experiment.

He created like a coding challenge for his,

like, for 50,000 of his audience,

and he split them up into two groups.

And the idea was this challenge

would help you learn how to code.

And it was some sort of like robot maze

and you had to sort of program the robot

to like go around the maze or something

on this online interface.

And the ingenious thing for this was

that this was not a solvable problem.

Like you couldn't actually solve it.

- [Mark] Yeah.

- So he was just seeing like, how much would people try?

And so he split the 50,000 people into two groups.

For half of them if they hit execute on the code

and it didn't work, it said,

"You have failed. Please try again."

But for the other half of the people it said,

"You have failed.

You've lost five points.

You now have 195 points.

Please try again."

These points were totally meaningless,

completely arbitrary.

But one group started with 200 fake points

and the other group got told nothing.

And the group who got told they lost five points,

tried less than half as many attempts

at solving this coding puzzle.

- Really? - And the crew

that didn't say anything at all.

And this whole experiment was a ruse.

It wasn't intended to teach people how to code.

It was intended to see how do people feel about failure.

And when you're told you've lost five points,

even though it's totally meaningless

and it does not mean anything and it's not money,

it's completely irrelevant,

you still try half, (chuckles)

less than half the number of times

as someone who wasn't told that at all.

And so his whole message,

he has a TED Talk about this

is all about how do we reframe failure?

And I think the way we reframe failure, as you said,

is experimentation where even failure is data gathering.

- Yeah.

Well, Ali, the book is "Feel Good Productivity."

Go buy it everywhere.

- There's a quote from you on the front.

- It's- - Thank you, by the way

for offering that quote- - Has my name on the quote.

- And yeah, I'm actually reading the thing.

- Dude, it's a great book, man.

You did a great job with it.

And it's, I've been very passionate about this idea

of an emotional,

emotions as part of the overall productivity system.

It's something that I've tried to write about at times.

Productivity's not really my wheelhouse.

So it's like it never really quite landed

or I never like wrote it in a way

that I felt good about it.

As soon as I started reading this,

I got like two, three chapters in.

I'm like, all right. - Nice.

- Yeah, this is it.

- Nice. - He's got it.

Like this is the productivity book that we've all needed.

- Lovely.

We'll clip that. Put it as a testimonial.

- Yeah, there you go. - Want some paid ads on it.

(both laughs)

- You can put a second line

with my name on it on the book, so.

Ali, it's been a pleasure, man.

- Thank you so much. - Thanks for coming on.

♪ Beat me black and blue ♪

♪ Every wound will shape me ♪

♪ Every scar will build my throne ♪