Episode 19 Part 1 Tomas Björkman - Education for societal shifts

Summary

The transcript is from an episode of the 'Name It' podcast hosted by Jonas Oganowski, featuring guest Thomas Borman, a social entrepreneur, founder of the EET Foundation, and author. They discuss the concept of collective agency, contrasting it with natural elements like oxygen, and how societal constructs like money and markets are human inventions that can be changed through collective action. Borman emphasizes the importance of lifelong learning and inner growth for individuals and organizations. The conversation touches on the need for education to foster skills and capacities to meet global challenges and the UN's sustainable development goals. It also explores the potential for societal transformation due to rapid technological advancements, suggesting that education should prepare individuals not just for the current world but also for a future that may require a new worldview and social structure.

Takeaways

• 🌿 **Nature Connection**: The importance of early connection with nature and its influence on personal development and societal change.
• 🔢 **Academic to Business**: Transitioning from academic pursuits in mathematics and physics to a career in entrepreneurship and banking, reflecting on the limitations of traditional economic models.
• 💡 **Lifelong Growth**: The significance of not only lifelong learning but also lifelong growth and maturation, both cognitively and emotionally, for individuals and society.
• 🌱 **Personal Development**: The role of leadership development consultants in highlighting the importance of personal growth within business and its broader applications.
• 🤝 **Corporate Culture**: The impact of corporate culture on organizational success and the necessity for an environment that fosters positive culture development.
• 🌐 **Global Constructs**: Recognizing that constructs like money, markets, and nation-states are human-made and can be changed through collective agency.
• 🛒 **Market Myth**: The metaphor of money versus oxygen to illustrate the difference between natural necessities and human constructs that are subject to change.
• 🧐 **Rational Limitations**: Acknowledging the value and limitations of rational scientific worldviews and the need to complement them with other perspectives for a comprehensive understanding.
• 🌟 **Societal Shift**: The potential for a significant societal shift due to rapid technological advancements, necessitating new skills and capacities for individuals.
• 📚 **Education for Change**: The need for education systems to prepare individuals for a world that is constantly evolving and to foster creativity and critical thinking.
• 🌈 **Inner Development Goals**: The connection between personal development and the United Nations' sustainable development goals, emphasizing the role of inner growth in achieving societal objectives.

Q & A

What is the main theme of the podcast episode with Thomas Borman?

The main theme of the podcast episode is exploring the importance of lifelong learning, inner growth, and maturation in organizations, management, and society, as well as discussing the metaphorical relationship between oxygen and money concerning collective agency and societal change.

What is Thomas Borman's background before he became a social entrepreneur?

Thomas Borman was an entrepreneur and investment banker, having built a banking business in Scandinavia and later in Switzerland. He also served as chairman of the banking group in Scandinavia and was on the board of directors of a Swiss bank.

What is the EET Foundation that Thomas Borman founded?

The EET Foundation, founded by Thomas Borman, is a social entrepreneurship initiative based in Stockholm. The foundation focuses on the connection between personal inner growth and societal change.

What are the Inner Development Goals (IDGs) framework?

The Inner Development Goals (IDGs) framework is a concept that Thomas Borman is involved in, which is related to the United Nations' sustainable development goals. It emphasizes the importance of personal development and societal change in meeting global challenges.

How does Thomas Borman view the difference between oxygen and money?

Thomas Borman views oxygen as a natural necessity that humans cannot change or do without, whereas money is a human invention that could be changed or removed if collectively decided upon by society. He points out that there is a misunderstanding in society that planetary boundaries are negotiable, while market forces are obeyed without question, when in fact, the opposite is true.

What is the concept of 'Collective agency' mentioned by Thomas Borman?

Collective agency refers to the ability of a group or society to come together and make decisions or changes that affect the collective whole. Borman discusses how society has become less adept at exercising collective agency, which is crucial for addressing global challenges and enacting societal change.

What does Thomas Borman suggest is the role of education in fostering skills to meet global challenges?

Borman suggests that education needs to foster not just knowledge and skills but also the capacities for lifelong learning, personal growth, and maturation. It should also encourage a critical and creative mindset that allows individuals to understand and potentially reinvent societal constructs like money and markets.

What is the significance of the 'social imaginaries' or 'Collective imaginaries' in Thomas Borman's discussion?

Social or Collective imaginaries are the shared beliefs, values, and constructs that societies operate on, such as money, nation-states, marriage, and religion. Borman discusses how these are human inventions that have taken on a reality of their own, shaping societal norms and behaviors, but also how they are changeable if society chooses to do so.

How does Thomas Borman connect personal development with societal change?

Borman connects personal development with societal change by emphasizing the importance of inner growth and maturity in individuals as a prerequisite for creating a positive corporate and societal culture. He argues that personal development can lead to a more caring and aware society, capable of addressing global challenges and enacting change.

What is the relevance of Thomas Borman's discussion on the market and economy to the field of education?

Borman's discussion is relevant to education as it highlights the need for educational systems to prepare individuals for a rapidly changing world. This includes understanding the constructed nature of economic systems and the potential for reinvention, encouraging a mindset that is adaptable, innovative, and capable of critical thinking.

What does Thomas Borman propose as the starting point for a new approach to education?

Borman proposes that education should start by making individuals aware that the world is shifting and that societal constructs are open to reimagining and recreation. This awareness can empower people to take on a more creative role in shaping the future, fostering a sense of agency and participation in societal development.

Outlines

00:00

🎙️ Introduction to the Podcast and Guest

The podcast host, Jonas Oganowski, introduces the theme of the show, which is about exploring deeper meanings and insights related to guests' passions and professions. The episode focuses on reimagining education with Thomas Borman, a social entrepreneur and founder of various initiatives. Borman's background includes entrepreneurship, investment banking, and authoring books. The discussion aims to cover lifelong learning, inner growth, corporate culture, and the connection between personal development and societal change.

05:01

🚀 From Business to Social Entrepreneurship

Thomas Borman shares his transition from a successful career in banking and business to focusing on personal and societal development. After selling his banking business, he established the EET Foundation in Stockholm to explore the link between inner growth and societal change. His journey was influenced by leadership development consultants who highlighted the importance of lifelong growth and maturation, not just learning. Borman emphasizes the need for nurturing corporate cultures and the significance of emotional and cognitive development for a healthy democracy.

10:03

🌱 The Impact of Personal Development on Business and Society

Borman discusses his realization of the importance of personal development in business and its potential application to societal culture. He talks about the influence of organizational consultants who demonstrated the significance of corporate culture and the role of management in fostering a positive environment. He questions why society does not prioritize lifelong growth and maturation in the same way businesses do, and how this awareness can extend to caring for the planet and future generations.

15:04

💭 The Constructed Nature of the Market and Economy

The conversation delves into the constructed nature of the market and economy, contrasting them with natural elements like oxygen. Borman argues that while humans are dependent on oxygen, money and markets are human inventions that can be changed. He emphasizes that recognizing this allows us to understand our collective power to shape our economic and social systems, as opposed to viewing them as unchangeable facts of life.

20:07

🤝 Collective Agency vs. Individual Power

Borman discusses the concept of collective agency, explaining that while individuals have limited power to change certain societal constructs like money, collectively we have the ability to transform these systems. He laments the decline in collective sense-making and the importance of education in fostering the skills necessary to meet global challenges. The discussion highlights the need for education to develop skills that support sustainable development goals.

25:09

🌐 The Role of Collective Imaginaries in Society

The host and Borman explore the idea of social or collective imaginaries, which are the shared beliefs and constructs that enable society to function. They discuss how these constructs, such as nation-states, marriage, and money, are human inventions that serve a purpose and can be changed. Borman stresses the importance of recognizing our collective power to shape these agreements and the role of education in preparing individuals for this reality.

30:10

🔄 Reinventing Social Constructs and Education

The discussion turns to the possibility of reinventing social constructs like money and education. Borman suggests that we are at a transition point in history where we can fundamentally change our worldview and collective reality. He believes that education should not only socialize individuals into the current system but also empower them with a critical and creative mindset to understand and shape the world they live in.

35:12

📚 Inner Development Goals and Sustainable Development

Borman talks about the Inner Development Goals (IDGs) project related to the United Nations' Sustainable Development Goals. He emphasizes the rapid technological development and its potential to transform society deeply. The conversation suggests that education systems should prepare young people for a future where they might need to reimagine and recreate societal structures, including the economy and the market.

Keywords

💡Collective agency

Collective agency refers to the capacity of a group of people to intentionally influence their social and political environment. In the context of the video, it is contrasted with the idea that certain natural elements like oxygen are not under human control, unlike constructs like money, which are a product of collective human agreement. The video discusses how society has the power to change systems like money and markets if it exercises its collective agency.

💡Inner development

Inner development involves personal growth in cognitive and emotional areas. The video emphasizes the importance of lifelong learning and inner growth for individuals, which is crucial for societal change. It is linked to the idea that nurturing environments can facilitate effective corporate cultures and that personal development is key for meeting global challenges.

💡Sustainable development goals (SDGs)

The Sustainable Development Goals are a collection of 17 global goals set by the United Nations to address various social, economic, and environmental challenges. The video mentions the Inner Development Goals (IDGs) framework, which is related to the SDGs, highlighting the importance of aligning personal and societal growth with the UN's goals for a sustainable future.

💡Corporate culture

Corporate culture refers to the values, behaviors, and practices that characterize a company. The video discusses the importance of nurturing a positive corporate culture and how it is influenced by the personal development of individuals within the organization. It suggests that creating an environment conducive to growth can lead to a healthy corporate culture.

💡Market forces

Market forces are the economic forces of supply and demand that influence the prices of goods and services. The video uses the term to illustrate the misconception that humans are at the mercy of market forces, whereas in reality, markets are human constructs that can be changed through collective action.

💡Lifelong learning

Lifelong learning is the concept of learning throughout one's life, as opposed to only during formal education years. The video emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and growth for individuals and society, suggesting that this is crucial for adapting to societal and environmental challenges.

💡Social entrepreneur

A social entrepreneur is someone who creates innovative solutions to social problems and implements them to effect change. Thomas Bjorkman, the guest in the video, is described as a social entrepreneur, highlighting his transition from business to focusing on societal and environmental issues.

💡Club of Rome

The Club of Rome is an organization of individuals who share a common concern for the global issues facing humanity and strive to promote sustainable development. Thomas Bjorkman is mentioned as a member, indicating his involvement in global dialogues on critical societal challenges.

💡Rational scientific worldview

The rational scientific worldview is a perspective that emphasizes reason and science as the primary means of understanding and interacting with the world. The video discusses the limitations of this worldview and suggests that it needs to be complemented with other ways of knowing to address the complex challenges facing society.

💡Technological development

Technological development refers to the growth and advancement of technology. The video highlights the rapid pace of technological change, particularly in AI and blockchain technology, and its potential to enable societal transformation and the reinvention of systems like the market.

💡Global Environmental challenges

Global Environmental challenges are worldwide issues related to the environment, such as climate change and resource depletion. The video discusses these challenges in the context of the need for societal change and the role of education in fostering the skills and knowledge necessary to address them.

Highlights

The podcast explores the deeper meanings, metaphors, and insights underlying various passions, projects, and professions.

Thomas Borman, a social entrepreneur and founder of the EET Foundation, discusses lifelong learning and inner growth in organizations and society.

Borman emphasizes the importance of nurturing environments that facilitate effective and healthy corporate cultures.

The connection between inner and outer personal development and individual and collective growth is a key topic of the discussion.

Healthy democracy and societal change are linked to the metaphor of oxygen and money, illustrating what we collectively believe can be reinvented.

Borman's background in mathematics, physics, and business led him to focus on the connection between personal development and societal change.

The importance of corporate culture and its impact on society is discussed, along with the role of leadership in creating a positive environment.

Borman argues that the market and economy are human constructs that can be changed through collective agency.

The concept of 'social imaginaries' or 'collective imaginaries' is introduced to describe the shared beliefs and agreements that shape society.

The potential for reinventing societal constructs like money and markets is discussed, emphasizing human agency in change.

Borman suggests that education should foster awareness of the shifting world and the possibility of reimagining societal structures.

The Inner Development Goals (IDGs) framework is highlighted as a tool for aligning personal growth with the UN's Sustainable Development Goals.

The discussion touches on the limitations of rational scientific worldviews and the need for a broader perspective to address global challenges.

Borman shares his perspective on the rapid technological development and its implications for the future of education and societal structures.

The importance of preparing young people for a future where they can recreate and reimagine societal norms is emphasized.

The podcast concludes with a call for a form of education that empowers individuals to understand their role in shaping the world.

Transcripts

money is under our Collective agency

whereas clean air and oxygen is not but

the sad thing is that in our everyday

lives it seems like we have mixed this

up and with that we actually believe the

opposite that we somehow believe that

the planetary boundaries are up for

negotiation whereas the market forces we

just have to obey when it's of course

the the opposite

that's welcome to another episode of the

name it podcast I am your host jonis

oganowski this podcast is all about

exploring and naming the deeper meanings

metaphors and insights underneath our

guests passions projects and professions

I sit down with people from all walks of

life to find out what brings them alive

this is the fourth in a special series

exploring the reimagining of Education

rather than prescribing answers or

singular Solutions my aim is to talk to

people from all areas of Education to

learn and explore with my guests

emerging questions challenges and

opportunities this is the first of a

two-part episode with my guest today

Thomas Borman after many years in

business as an entrepreneur and

investment banker Thomas bjorkman is now

a social entrepreneur and the founder of

the EET foundation in Stockholm he is

also the co-founder of the research

institute perspectiva in London of the

co-creation Loft and the media platform

emerge in Berlin the 29 k.org digital

personal development platform and the

inner development goals or idg's

framework he is a member of the club of

Rome and a fellow of the royal Swedish

Academy of engineering science he's the

author of three books the market myth

published in 2016 the Nordic secret

together with Lana Rachel Anderson in

2017 and the world we create in 2019

Thomas divides his time between London

Stockholm and Berlin we talk about the

importance of lifelong learning and

inner growth and maturation in

organizations management and in society

nurturing environments that can

facilitate effective and healthy

corporate cultures the connection

between inner and outer personal

development and individual and

Collective growth and capacity we talk

about healthy democracy and societal

change oxygen and money as a metaphor

for what we collectively believe we can

reinvent Collective agency and

Collective sense making the value and

limitation of rational scientific World

Views what skills knowledge and

capacities does education need to Foster

to meet Global and environmental

challenges and societal shifts and how

inner development goals are important in

our meeting the un's sustainable

development goals and many other topics

please welcome Thomas

borkman welcome Thomas to the podcast

it's really great I'm I'm very honored

to have you on have been following your

work for a little while and and thought

it'd be great to have a conversation so

so thank you for coming on thank you

thank you Jonas for having me on thank

you so i' I'd like to start for for the

listeners who are not familiar with your

work and and some of your background um

if you could give a bit of a sort of an

origin story or a description of uh the

work that you do maybe a little bit

about your background and how that's

brought you to to your current interest

in broader systemic ch change um to to

meet some of the global challenges sure

sure thank you for giving me the

opportunity so um uh I'm Swedish uh uh I

was born in 1958 in a small Swedish

rural town and grew up very much on on

the countryside and had the opportunity

to connect very early with nature and

with

environment um realized quite early in

life that I had a talent for mathematics

and physics so uh I was the first in my

family to go to university and I studied

mathematics and physics and those

subjects came fairly easy to me so I

thought that I would uh pursue an

academic career in in physics but then

also B the business world was calling me

so I changed quite abruptly from the

academic environment into the business

world and have been a Serial Entre r

preneur

in it uh property and in

banking uh built a banking business in

Scandinavia and later in in Switzerland

which I sold um in the beginning of the

2000s had to commit to remain as

chairman of the banking group in

Scandinavia for some years and being on

the board of directors of the Swiss bank

for some years but when that contract

ended in 2006 I was very happy to leave

both the financial world and the

business world and I had the opportunity

to set up my own foundation in Stockholm

the Oak Island Foundation stiff is and

ear

credit uh and really try to focus both

intellectually but also very practically

on the connection between personal inner

growth and

development and societal

change

and when when I started the foundation

some almost 15 years ago now then this

was very

exotic inner development and societal

change most people did not understand at

all what what I was uh getting at and

one could ask ones how did I come into

contact into these areas and and why did

this start to interest

me and uh the background there is that I

had the luck and the privilege to work

with some very talented leadership

development

Consultants who showed me and my

management team in the bank the uh

importance of not just lifelong learning

uh but also lifelong growth and

maturation some some people in the

educational space make a diff difference

between horizontal learning and vertical

development so the horizontal learning I

was very familiar with but then starting

to explore with myself and my management

team uh how we

could help each other through the help

of these very

talented uh leadership development

Consultants to grow both cognitively and

uh

emotionally and that of course helped us

in the business world but we all also

noticed how this helped us in our family

lives and and and private lives and it

also opened up at least for myself the

horizons to care

about more parts of the world not just

the business world but the world outside

the society

care about the planet care about future

Generations so um that was a very eye

openening experience to me coming from a

very natural science and business world

to go through that uh

process and

then uh of course it's very easy to ask

on themselves than the question as I

did if we in the business world at least

in part of the business World realize

the importance of not just lifelong

learning but lifelong growth and in a

maturation and we even spend money and

valuable time in supporting this

development in our top management how

come then that we are not at all talking

about that in

society so in society we are starting to

talk about lifelong learning of facts

and skills but supporting this General

development

Journey we are not really talking

about and then also uh having the

opportunity to work with some other uh

also very gifted uh consultants in

organizational

development who showed us the importance

about uh corporate

culture and how important it is for any

larger uh Corporation to really pay

attention to uh your corporate culture

and also realizing that you cannot as a

management uh manage or Implement a

certain corporate culture but you can

certainly try to create a an

environment which can facilitate the

growth of a positive corporate

culture and again asking the same

question if we in the business World

realize the important of corporate

culture and how diff difficult it can be

to handle that in terms of for example

when you're are trying to

merge different organizations and and

creating a multicultural even corporate

culture uh how come that we are not at

all talking about societal culture in

the same way and that one of the most

important aspects of political

leadership might be to uh not command or

Implement a culture but create a holding

culture a holding environment in which

uh uh a positive Multicultural Society

might grow so that was really my

starting point into the inner worlds of

us individuals in the inner world of of

society um and then also starting to

explore the connection between the two

there are organizational Consultants who

po point out that

um in order to be able to

hold replicate and

develop uh a deeper more complex more

perhaps Multicultural corporate culture

that puts demands on the participants in

that uh Corporation to have developed

those inner capacities to actually be

able to hold that culture so there is

somehow a connection between the

corporate culture or the societal

culture and the

maturation of those who participate in

that culture and if you draw that out to

to the end then one might even argue

that in order for us to be able to have

a

healthy uh democracy you you need a

certain

level of the emotional and cognitive

capacities within the um uh Society for

that to be able to operate so that that

was my background and the starting point

and my inroad into this very interesting

field of personal development and

societal change yeah thank you I find it

a really interesting uh story and and

sort of pathway that you've you

journeyed through um sort of coming from

uh your origins in Sweden and and I

think growing up on a on a farm in

Sweden and then the interest in

engineering and Mathematics and and then

Finance um very much that sort of

corporate systemic world and you some

could argue comes with a particular

world view that can sort of grow through

those experiences and those approaches

yes um

and and and now finding yourself sort of

looking more towards those inner

Dimensions not at the exclusion of those

outer um systemic Dimensions but the how

do they play that part how do they how

are they important

in um supporting the growth of of you

know an equitable uh Multicultural

sustainable future um through

um

while not getting sort of Lost in just

trying to to develop um those those

outer goals um and I I think this might

be a

really continue keep going no I was just

going to say that I've always been very

curious and that was what draw me into

the into Academia in in the first place

um and I've always been fascinated on of

how we can understand uh our world and

also the the strength of

the uh scientific perspective the the

strength of the Natural Science

perspective um but I also discovered

fairly early in business that

the um classical neoclassical economic

uh

models uh that I studied at at

University I also studied some economics

before switching into business that

those models that try to

model uh the E the economy or the market

with um natural science tools that they

are not that helpful in really

understanding what is what is going on

so you could say that through my efforts

of of trying to be an entrepreneur in

the business bus world trying to

understand the market uh I found the

traditional economic models very very

limited and found that it was much much

more helpful even from a business point

of view to try to understand uh uh the

business world and the market from a

sociological perspective and a

psychological perspective realizing that

we as actors in this world we are not

those super rational all

informed agents that the standard

economic models

presume we are but in reality we are

acting in very very different uh ways

and also the fact from sociology that

the market and the economy is is not a

natural system it's not something given

by nature or given by God it the the

market and the economy is a human

invention it's a human construct uh that

has been developing and developing

rapidly over the last couple of hundred

years only uh and when you see that and

you realize that even the free market

could be very very different

than yeah that that was my Approach in

and that's also why I called my the

first book I I uh wrote uh the world we

create putting an emphasis on that most

of the factors in our in our human

worlds that we encounter every day 80%

90% of of that

world is constructed by us humans and

and could be

different I could perhaps take that

that's quite abstract but I could take

um uh a concrete example there and

contrasting

the human world to to the Natural

World

um and say that um for me as an

individual in in the western world uh

today I to survive I need amongst many

other things I need air to breathe I

need

oxygen um and I need

money

um and for me as an

individual these two aspects of our

world that I need oxygen and that I need

money meets me as two two facts that I

need to relate

to but on a very fundamental basis there

is a huge difference between oxygen and

money so for

example even if the whole of the world

came together and decided that that all

humans on the world came together and

decided we do not want to be dependent

on oxygen any

longer we couldn't do anything about

that but if all of humanity came

together or even just a majority in a

nation state came together and said we

don't want to be dependent on money any

longer then money could be gone

tomorrow of course we would probably for

practical reasons have to replace it

with some other ways of of allocating

our goods and and services but money and

the market as we know it could be could

be gone

tomorrow um and so that's the invention

by by humankind side of it yeah and and

that we create it and and we create it

deliberately but also by a lot

of decisions that have just been been

taken by random through through history

we ended up with the market as it is now

it's important to say again that this

realization that the market is just a

collective invention it is part of our

Collective

imaginary that does not help me as an

individual because even with that

realization when

I go to the supermarket and I'm at the

at the cashier desk and the cashier

tells me this is what you need to

pay if I say well you know money is just

human invention it's just part of our

Collective imaginary that won't help me

because the police might come and and

put me in put me in jail for trying to

steal or even as for example Michael

Fuko has pointed out even other uh

societal functions and institution help

us to enforce this Collective imaginary

not just the law but if I totally in

insist on the world being just a f fasy

I could even be put in mental hospital

so even

our mental hospital system keeps

enforcing this Collective imaginary okay

so so why is this important well it's

important because then we realize that

even if we as individuals do not have

any agency in changing the collective

imaginary things like money on the

market we do have a we do have a

collective agency there are things that

we can change if we exercise Collective

agency that we can't change as

individuals and during the last couple

of decades I would say that we have been

generally in the Western World better

and better empowered in exercising our

individual agency whereas Collective

agency we become worse and worse at

exercising not the least because in

order to be able to exercise Collective

agency we first need to have Collective

sense making and Collective sense making

is breaking down today and of course we

can tie that to education in um in a

moment I should just make one final

comment on this on this metaphor and

that is so we realize that

money is under our Collective agency

whereas clean air and oxygen is not but

the sad thing is that in our everyday

lives it seems like we have mixed this

up and with that we actually believe the

opposite that we somehow believe that

the planetary boundaries are up for

negotiation whereas the market forces we

just have to obey when it's of course

the the opposite that's a very

interesting question we could we could

easily get lost in that would be very

tempting

[Music]

it's it's um some really interesting

metaphors and sort of tracks we went

down there um one term that I heard you

uh make was the uh was it the social

imaginaries or Collective imaginaries

um yeah yeah could you speak a little

bit

about yeah could you speak a little bit

about what those

are well it is really all of

those Collective

agreements explicit or

implicit or even subconscious agreements

that we have that makes the world

operate okay so gravit

gravitation and uh

oxygen would still be here on Earth even

if we didn't have any humans that in

order for our society to operate and

this was really the case even in the

very early dawn of of of humanity we

have invented a lot of things that we

collectively believe in

and because we collectively believe in

them they appear real to us and money is

one example but there are many many

other examples of course like Nation

States

presidents um

marriage to name a few and and all of

those are just human invention they they

do not exist in in nature they only

exist because we believe in those things

and that we

collectively enforce them some we

enforce by legal Arrangement and some

just by by

tradition and when we start to see that

that nation states marriage president

money and many many other things are

just sometimes

quite

random Collective

agreements that usually in history had

played an important role and might have

served some good purpose historically MH

or

just some good purpose for a dominating

minority who invented those things can

include King Kings and dukes and Bishops

and religions and of course religions

and God and all of those things are in

this space yes and usually we have

invented them because they

served some

purpose and religion for example some

some sociologists say and I think

there's a lot of Truth in that that we

invented religion the monotheistic

religions because that really helped us

to be able to coordinate larger groups

of people when we were moving from the

small hun together societies where

everyone knew each other and we tried to

form the first states and city states

with

perhaps tens or even hundreds of

thousands of people then you needed to

have new coordination mechanism to keep

those

societies uh together and their religion

played an important role yes just like

today keeping the world together the

market plays a very very important role

in in keeping that together and making

it possible for us to even have business

transactions internationally with even

with our

enemies it even in this conflict today

in in Europe we are still trading with

Russia yeah that's I mean it's a it's a

topic well out of my sphere of

understanding and and uh uh knowledge

but it's a good point there was

something I just wanted to sort of come

back to before we do move towards how

does all this relate entially to

education even in the broadest

conception and it does and it does

absolutely I think very much and it's

good kind of having built this sort of

foundation background which um I I did

want to do and that was just that coming

back to the the analogy and the

difference between oxygen and money um

and I just wanted to sort of um think

out loud a little bit here see what you

think about this and and you can respond

which is that um yes in very many ways

something like money um uh or debt um

when it was first conceived or started

to emerge because I believe in

some um some schools of thought there's

no such thing as a a a first single

appearance of any

new um phenomena or or or invention it

sort of happens of in a very emergent

distributed way absolutely absolutely

abely I'm sure we had sure we had some

sort of concept of of death even in

Stone Age absolutely Absolut yeah so I

was just thinking so that initially

there's it's it's invented um by humans

in this case um and so it has very

different qualities from Air so it's in

some way it could be that if there was

some kind of Collective Agreement and at

the moment I think it's granted that you

and me are sort of using this as thought

experiment not and we're aware of real

difficulties to to do something like

let's all agree absolutely that money

doesn't exist absolutely however um

after that those initial emergent

inventions of of that Collective

imaginary such as money um our the way

we conceive of ourselves the way we

relate um culturally uh relationally

emotionally and even physically so that

the the institutions and the systems

that start to form around or the rituals

that start to form around that

original uh

imagined

uh uh phenomenon such as money those

start to form in a way their own um

concrete realities in some sense that

have almost

like cultural or systemic gravity on our

own um and as you point I think an

example is with the cashier so it's

there's still those realities that kind

of no absolutely and and and another

example of that would be that even if

the nation state y uh is a u just an

invented

idea when I was

visiting Lithuania uh during summer

I went up against the Border towards

kaliningrad which is Russia and of

course there you hit the barb

wire okay you hit the barb wire and and

we even had um um a um border patrol

approaching us saying that you can't go

closer to the Border than this so of

course these ideas take on a very

tangible reality in in in many cases

that you hit up against but again it's

important that to remember that the

origin is with us humans and we could

decide to change it we could tear down

the borders we could tear down the wall

and I I I think that's a a

really uh a really important Point

actually and um one that I'm I I agree

with and perhaps we can use this as sort

of the branching off point to start to

take us in the direction of how this

relates to education in in the broadest

sense which is if we take this

particular topic of having invented

something like money or and the system

and the markets around which it um

orients and and uh

manifests

um is that we could reinvent it

potentially so there's that opportunity

to we are impacted individually and

collectively daily um some more than

others by the very

real uh climate that th and world that

those inventions um have brought about

such as money and the market um and the

same could be said for um forms of

education and what kind of skill sets

were valued and encouraged when our

current educational system was

introduced and that we can and I would

argue and perhaps you might agree start

to reinvent that in in all absolutely

different locals around the world and

it's there's a

gravitational a strong gravitational I

almost think of it like with a black

hole there's an event

horizon um or the the event horizon or

the the the gravitation

um pull of when you first escape the

Earth in a rocket I think a certain

large percentage of fuel is and energy

is used up in getting away from that

that that strong gravity after which new

system change new changes of yes ways of

doing education possible and I complet

completely agree with with what you said

and I think one could make an even

stronger claim today and and that is

that

um I believe that we are right now very

close

to uh again in the history of

humanity uh a transition point where we

are transitioning from one system into

another and um one of the reasons why

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why humanity is still

around after so many thousands of years

is that we have had the ability to

change our uh world viw and our social

our Collective reality fundamentally a

number of times and we have already

mentioned mentioned that when we went

from being small groups of hunter

gatherers uh and then trying to create

large

cities or or small nation states we

needed to invent some sort of so social

function some social glue that would

help us to keep those

societies together as our instincts were

not enough as our instincts were created

over millions of years then our

instincts have essentially not shifted

but our culture has shifted and the last

uh time we had such a deep cultural

shift in the western world uh I would

argue was during the

Enlightenment when we went from uh a

religious dogmatic worldview in to a u

uh

scientific

rationalistic worldview and that was the

start of the Industrial Revolution and

all of that and essentially we have been

living in that worldview and that

culture that Collective

imaginary uh

since

um the

Enlightenment and we should be I think

we should be very grateful for that

approach to the world because that

rationalistic um scientific approach has

given us everything from modern medicine

to uh human rights and democracy and we

wouldn't want to be without that but at

the same time I think that we can all

see how this approach to the world is

running out of steam and some would even

argue

that the worst problems that we are

facing such as now the breakdown of

democracy and the Global Environmental

challenges that they might actually be

an

effect uh of that particular

worldview so again I'm a scientist I

know the strength of the scientific

perspective so I think it would be

unwise to get rid of that

perspective just like we in during the

Enlightenment just got rid of

religion um I I think we should keep

that perspective but that we should

realize the limitations of that

perspective and that that has to be

complemented with other ways of of

knowing and understand

standing and if that is true that we are

actually standing in front of such a

substantial societal shift then of

course we as individuals in this Society

we need other skills other knowledges

other

capacities uh than the typical

inhabitant that lived uh in the society

50 years ago or a 100 years ago that

even if we back then perceived a very

rapid technological development it was

essentially the same society that we

were living

in so now if we have a shift like this

then we need to first of all in

education

make uh everyone aware of the fact that

uh the world is Shifting and that it is

possible I to recreate and reimagine

such things as the N the nation

state uh

marriages um money uh the market

political system and that most of those

things might even be up for grabs and

that just knowing that is empowering

people to be able to step into a more

creative role

so how can we

instead of the way that our school

system today has been set up

in socializing people into a specific

world and specific world view which we

of course still need to do but on top of

that have a constructive critical view

on our world and knowing that we all are

actually the creators of this world uh

every day when we are act either

replicating or

recreating this world whether we know it

or or not and if that would be the basis

for uh if we took that as our basis when

we speaking of a a form of Education

that um may still need to include the

preparing of young people for a

particular um uh capacity to to live

well and and leave meaningful lives um

that can include a world viiew that

comes with that could you speak a little

bit about one of the projects that you

uh helped to found or or have some

involvement in around the inner

development goals project that's related

to the sustainable development goals

from the United Nation absolutely

absolutely

so the first thing I I should say is

that um whether you believe or not that

we are in for a a

fundamental societal shift due to what

is happening right now with the

technological development not not the

least what is happening in the field of

AI and blockchain technology and those

things that would make it possible I

mean blockchain technology

makes it possible not just to invent

cryptocurrencies which is essentially

same money but

digitally but could actually open the

door to having possibilities of really

Reinventing the market and getting

beyond the money and and

having completely new ways of making the

economy H clear so the technological

development is moving so quickly even if

you

might not like I do believe that we are

facing a very deep societal uh

transformation uh at least everyone

would would agree with me that the

technological development that we see

now is so uh rapid and transformative

that we can really not have any idea

about what practical skills or what

train needs we should educate young

people

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