Individual Consciousness Is Not Enough - Tomas Björkman

Summary

In this insightful podcast, Carl Hall interviews Thomas, a successful entrepreneur and social entrepreneur, on the intersection of business and spirituality. Thomas shares his journey from building an investment bank to focusing on philanthropy and projects aimed at creating a new conscious society. He discusses the need for an inner shift in individuals to bring about societal change and the importance of recognizing our role as co-creators in the evolutionary process of the universe. The conversation delves into the limitations of a purely materialistic worldview and the necessity of a multi-perspectival approach that includes inner development and collective sense-making. Thomas emphasizes the potential for business success when aligning with the evolutionary force of the universe, advocating for a future where entrepreneurship and consciousness development go hand in hand.

Takeaways

• 💼 **Business and Spirituality Intersection**: The podcast aims to explore the relationship between business practices and spirituality, a topic considered controversial but essential for holistic success.
• 🧘 **Inner Shift to Outer Shift**: Carl Hall believes that societal change begins with an inner shift in individuals, which then extends to the external world, affecting how we structure society and conduct business.
• 🚀 **Entrepreneurial Success and Social Impact**: Guest Thomas discusses his journey from building a successful business to focusing on philanthropy and social entrepreneurship, emphasizing the role of personal growth in business success.
• 🌏 **Global Initiatives and Collaboration**: Thomas has been involved in numerous global initiatives, highlighting the importance of international cooperation and the establishment of hubs worldwide for social change.
• 📚 **Education for the 21st Century**: There is a call for an updated education system that prepares individuals for the complexities of the modern world, focusing on both cognitive and emotional development.
• 🧠 **The Complexity of Human Action**: The conversation touches on the limitations of the scientific perspective in understanding human action, suggesting a need for an inner perspective that includes values, worldview, and consciousness.
• 🌱 **Evolutionary Force and Human Role**: Thomas suggests that humans are incarnations of an evolutionary force, here to co-create the world, and that aligning with this force can lead to successful and meaningful business ventures.
• 🔄 **Emergent Phenomena in Evolution**: The script discusses the concept of emergence in evolution, describing how complex systems like life and consciousness have arisen from simpler forms.
• 🌟 **Individual and Collective Growth**: Stressing the importance of personal development in handling complexity and the need for collective sense-making to address societal challenges effectively.
• 📉 **Declining Collective Consciousness**: The dialogue suggests that Western society may be less conscious collectively than in the past, indicating a need for a shift towards more awareness and action on global issues.
• 🌈 **Secular Approaches to Spiritual Questions**: As society becomes more secular, there is a need to find non-religious answers to existential questions that provide a sense of purpose and direction.

Q & A

What is the main theme of the podcast 'Cash and Soul'?

The podcast 'Cash and Soul' explores the intersection of business and spirituality, aiming to bring the soul back into business practices and discussing how spirituality has affected the careers of successful individuals.

What is Carl Hall's background and his focus as an entrepreneur and investor?

Carl Hall is an entrepreneur and investor who primarily focuses on impact investing. He is interested in inviting successful business individuals to discuss how spirituality has influenced their careers and how to create a societal shift.

What significant business did Thomas build and sell?

Thomas built an investment bank, which he later sold to a Swiss bank.

What is the Inner Development Goals project that Thomas is involved in?

Inner Development Goals is a project co-founded by Thomas, represented in over 100 countries with 500 hubs worldwide. It aims to help individuals develop inner capacities and skills to cope with the complexity of the modern world and meet global challenges.

How does Thomas view the relationship between spirituality and religion?

Thomas differentiates between spirituality and religion, considering himself non-religious and atheist. He sees spirituality as an inner perspective that complements the scientific perspective, taking into account values, worldview, and meaning-making systems.

What is Thomas's perspective on the materialistic worldview?

Thomas acknowledges the success of the materialistic worldview stemming from the Enlightenment but suggests it has reached its limits and needs to be complemented with an inner perspective that considers consciousness and values.

How does Thomas define consciousness?

For Thomas, consciousness is not just the content of our minds but our mind's ability to handle both cognitive and emotional complexity.

What does Thomas believe about the evolutionary force in the universe?

Thomas believes in an evolutionary force that has been active in the universe for 13.8 billion years, leading to the emergence of life, consciousness, and human culture. He sees humans as incarnations of this force and important co-creators of the world.

Why does Thomas think society is less conscious today compared to 50 years ago?

Thomas believes that while individuals may be more capable of exercising individual agency, society's collective sense-making and agency have diminished. This is partly due to the breakdown of collective sense-making and the increasing complexity of the world.

What are the three areas that Thomas suggests need attention to increase societal consciousness?

Thomas identifies individual capacity development, cultural and worldview updates, and structural aspects such as education, legal, and political systems as the three areas needing attention.

What advice does Thomas give to young individuals who want to be both financially successful and conscious?

Thomas advises young individuals to develop an ability to sense into society and the environment, aligning themselves with the evolutionary force of the universe. He suggests that by doing so, they can lead businesses that are successful and contribute positively to humanity and the planet.

Outlines

00:00

🎙️ Podcast Introduction and Guest Welcome

The host, Carl Hall, introduces the podcast 'Cash and Soul' focusing on the convergence of business and spirituality. He emphasizes the need to reintegrate spirituality into business practices. Carl is an entrepreneur and investor with a focus on impact. The guest, Thomas, is introduced as a successful businessman who has transitioned into philanthropy and social entrepreneurship, having funded numerous startups and initiatives, including the E Credit Foundation and Inner Development Goals.

05:01

🧘‍♂️ Defining Spirituality and its Role in Business

The conversation delves into the definitions of spirituality and its relationship with religion. Thomas shares his perspective, having a background in mathematics and physics, and not identifying with traditional religious beliefs. However, he acknowledges the limitations of a purely scientific worldview when it comes to human action and the importance of inner qualities such as values, worldview, and consciousness. The discussion suggests that an inner shift in human consciousness is necessary to address the complex challenges faced by humanity.

10:03

🌏 Materialism and the Evolution of Worldviews

The speakers discuss the transition from a dogmatic religious worldview to a rational scientific one during the Enlightenment. While acknowledging the benefits of the materialistic worldview, such as advancements in medicine and democracy, they also recognize its limitations. Thomas suggests that the current worldview may be contributing to existential crises and that there is a need to integrate an inner perspective to address these challenges effectively.

15:07

🌱 The Emergence of Life and Consciousness

The paragraph explores the concept of emergence in complex systems, using life and consciousness as examples. It is suggested that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of the world, possibly preceding matter. The discussion touches on the idea of an evolutionary force or source that has been active since the Big Bang, shaping the universe and life within it. The concept of humans as co-creators with this force is introduced, emphasizing our role in the ongoing evolution of the world.

20:09

🔍 Collective Challenges and the Need for Awakening

The focus shifts to the collective challenges humanity faces and the necessity for a collective awakening. It is argued that individual agency is not enough and that collective agency is required to drive systemic change. The paragraph discusses the decline in collective sense-making and the breakdown of structures that support it. The importance of legislation and collective action in shaping markets and societal systems is highlighted.

25:10

🚀 Entrepreneurship and the Journey to Consciousness

Thomas reflects on his journey towards greater consciousness, particularly during his time as an entrepreneur. He discusses the limitations of traditional economic models and the importance of recognizing human agency in creating markets. His experiences led him to explore different ways of understanding the world, integrating scientific, introspective, and sociological perspectives. The paragraph also touches on the value of leadership development programs in fostering personal growth and expanding awareness beyond immediate business and family needs.

30:12

🌟 Navigating Complexity and Expanding Awareness

The conversation emphasizes the importance of developing individual capacities to navigate a more complex world. It suggests that the current education system is outdated and does not adequately prepare individuals for the cognitive and emotional demands of modern society. The speakers advocate for a societal shift towards a new, richer, and more multi-perspectival worldview, as well as structural changes to societal systems to support collective sense-making.

35:15

💼 Advice for the Young and Conscious Entrepreneur

In the final paragraph, Thomas offers advice to young individuals seeking both financial success and heightened consciousness. He suggests aligning oneself with the evolutionary force of the universe and being a positive servant to that force as a path to successful business and positive impact on humanity and the planet. The conversation concludes with a mutual appreciation for the insights shared and an invitation for a follow-up discussion.

Keywords

💡Spirituality

Spirituality is a broad concept that refers to a sense of connection to something greater than oneself, often involving a search for meaning in life. In the video, spirituality is discussed as a potential guiding force for personal and societal development, and its relationship with business is explored. The host, Carl Hall, mentions that spirituality affected the career of his guest, Thomas, and how it could influence societal shifts.

💡Entrepreneur

An entrepreneur is an individual who creates a new business, bearing most of the risks and enjoying most of the rewards. The video features Carl Hall, an entrepreneur and investor with a focus on impact, who is exploring the intersection of business and spirituality. Thomas, the guest, is also described as having had a successful business career, including building an investment bank.

💡Conscious Society

A conscious society refers to a community that is aware of its collective impact and takes responsibility for its actions towards the environment and each other. The concept is brought up by Carl when he discusses Thomas's philanthropic efforts and the projects aimed at building a new conscious society, such as the E Credit Foundation and Inner Development Goals.

💡

💡Inner Development Goals

Inner Development Goals are a set of objectives aimed at fostering personal growth and societal change through self-awareness and inner transformation. In the transcript, Thomas mentions that he is a co-founder of a project with over 500 hubs worldwide, which completed its second Global Summit in Stockholm, focusing on the inner capacities and skills needed to cope with the world's complexity.

💡Collective Agency

Collective agency is the ability of a group to act together with a shared purpose. It is discussed in the context of societal change, where Thomas suggests that the market and other systems are human constructs that can be changed through collective action, often via legislation. The importance of updating societal structures for the 21st century to support collective sense-making is also highlighted.

💡Evolutionary Force

The term 'evolutionary force' is used to describe the underlying process or principle driving the development and progress of life, consciousness, and culture. Thomas speaks of an evolutionary force that has been active in the universe for billions of years, which humans are incarnations of and through which they co-create the world. This concept is central to understanding the嘉宾's perspective on the interconnectedness of individual and collective development.

💡Materialistic Worldview

A materialistic worldview is one that prioritizes physical matter and observable phenomena as the fundamental basis of reality, often to the exclusion of spiritual or non-material aspects. The transcript discusses the shift from a dogmatic religious worldview to a rational scientific one during the Enlightenment, which has been successful but is now seen as insufficient to address modern challenges, necessitating a complementary inner perspective.

💡Existential Challenges

Existential challenges are profound, often complex issues that threaten the very existence or survival of humanity, such as environmental crises, social unrest, or identity crises. In the video, Thomas suggests that the current materialistic worldview is the root cause of many existential challenges faced by humanity, indicating the need for a shift towards a more holistic and spiritually aware perspective.

💡Consciousness

Consciousness, in the context of the video, refers to an individual's awareness, perception, and cognitive understanding of their surroundings and themselves. It is a central theme, with Thomas discussing the evolution of consciousness from simple life forms to humans and its role in creating culture and complex systems. The development of consciousness is linked to the ability to handle complexity and to the potential for humans to act as co-creators in the world's evolution.

💡Social Entrepreneur

A social entrepreneur is someone who applies innovative, market-based solutions to social problems. Thomas describes himself as a social entrepreneur, using his own money as seed funding for various projects aimed at societal improvement. This reflects his belief in using business acumen for social impact, which is a key topic in the discussion about integrating spirituality with business practices.

Highlights

The podcast aims to explore the intersection of business and spirituality, a controversial yet important subject.

Carl Hall, the host, is an entrepreneur and investor focused on impact, seeking to bring spirituality back into business.

Guest Thomas, a successful businessman turned social entrepreneur, discusses his journey from investment banking to philanthropy.

Thomas emphasizes the need for an inner shift in individuals to create a societal change, aligning with the podcast's theme.

The conversation delves into the definition of spirituality, distinguishing it from religious beliefs.

Thomas shares his perspective as a physicist, suggesting that consciousness and the human mind's complexity surpass scientific understanding.

The discussion highlights the limitations of a purely materialistic worldview and the need to embrace a more holistic perspective.

Thomas introduces the concept of humans as incarnations of an evolutionary force, contributing to the world's ongoing development.

The podcast addresses the challenges of collective action and the breakdown of collective sense-making in modern society.

Carl and Thomas explore the idea that society's awareness and consciousness have declined over the past 50 years, despite technological advancements.

The importance of individual development, collective agency, and cultural narratives in addressing existential questions is underscored.

Thomas advocates for a new, multi-perspectival worldview that can help society navigate the complexities of the 21st century.

The conversation stresses the need for updating societal structures, including education and legal systems, to support collective sense-making.

Thomas shares his personal journey towards greater consciousness, emphasizing the role of inner growth and development.

The podcast concludes with advice for young individuals seeking both financial success and heightened consciousness, encouraging alignment with the evolutionary force of the universe.

The host and guest agree on the potential of businesses to be successful while also contributing positively to humanity and the planet.

The discussion encourages a shift towards a future where business leadership is guided by an emerging, conscious, and evolutionary perspective.

Transcripts

welcome to cash and

soul so um this podcast is about the

intersection of business and

spirituality um and as you know it's

pretty controversial subject even Jesus

throughout the the the money lenders

from the temple 2,000 years ago um but

my belief is that uh we need to have the

soul back in the cash um and uh uh so

that's what we're exploring here in this

podcast

um uh my name is Carl Hall uh I'm an

entrepreneur and investor primarily with

impact um and this podcast for me is

about inviting some very successful

business men and women uh and talking to

them about spirituality and how that

affected their career and and how to

create this shift in society that we

need um and I'm very happy to have you

here Thomas uh I count you as a friend

and and also an advisor uh thank you and

thank you for having me on your podcast

thank you and um I want to say first

that I really admire you as a you are a

renaissance man I mean you first of all

for the people that don't know Thomas

you you had a very successful business

career where you built up among other

things built up an investment bank which

you sold to a an

Austrian

firm a Swiss bank Swiss Swiss sorry yeah

uh and i' also uh already 2008 started

with uh philanthropy and projects to

build up the new conscious Society right

so you've uh funded numerous

startups uh you have uh you know a lot

of initiatives like E Credit

Foundation uh and now most recently uh

you have or recently you have also

started um inner development goals which

are kind of what we need to cre to be

able to um deliver on the Millennium

goals the the UN Millennium goals which

as I understand have been widely

successful I don't know how many

countries are they in now it's like a

well uh it's a relatively young uh

project uh first of all I I should say

that uh uh I don't call myself a a

philanthropist

uh I've been successful in business yes

I I built a few businesses in it and

property and as you mentioned in in

banking but I didn't make a huge uh

Fortune so I'd rather see myself as a

social entrepreneur where I sometimes

use my own money as seed funding for for

various

projects uh I also sometimes call myself

an author I've written written or

co-written three

books um and uh the inner development

project which I'm a co-founder of there

we are many people involved in that

project uh is today represented in more

than 100 countries with 500 hubs

worldwide and we uh just some months ago

completed the second Global Summit here

in Stockholm where we had 1,500 people

for uh three days joining in and

exploring

as you said what are the inner uh

capacities and skills that we all need

to develop in order for us to be able to

uh just cope with the complexity of our

world today and to meet the global

challenges that we are facing as

Humanity yeah exactly so so uh as I said

you really are a person that I admire

and and um and also I feel that you're a

fellow uh fellow um uh Fighter for this

shift that we need in society right um

where I think um and this is a little

bit what this podcast is about is about

the spiritual side of business right so

uh and I wanted to maybe start with with

so can I yes ask so is it obvious that

this shift that I think that more and

more of us are feeling that that we do

need in in society um is that a

spiritual shift is it an inner shift

or could we just be looking at this as a

as a as a shift in the outside of the

world in as a shift in a new way of

structuring society democracy and the

way we are doing business or is it

really also an inner shift and if it is

an inner

shift why would we call it a spiritual

shift that that might be something that

we could drill yeah that's an

interesting question I mean um I believe

that it

um I think I mean my belief is that it

will start with an inner shift in a lot

of people uh and then then when when we

have the inner shift it will spread to

the outer shift uh as as I say but but I

mean the spiritual I mean you're

alluding to that but spirituality is a

bit of a kind of I don't know a word

yeah and it's also a word that people

have you know so I'm little interested

what's your what's your

your relationship to spirituality and

what's your um definition of it or or

your your relationship to

it and and what what is the relationship

between spirituality and and religion do

you need to be religious to be

spiritual am I am I spiritual so um let

me start and say that um I studied

mathematics and physics at University so

I come from a very natural science

perspective and I have always called

myself non

religious even atheist okay okay so so

uh uh I do not believe in

in um an allseeing and intervening God

that you can pray to and that and put

things right the man on the on the cloud

the man on the cloud or even a

sophisticated man on the cloud no I

don't believe in a even in a

sophisticated man on the cloud U but uh

I do see that the world is much much

more complicated and even

complex

than uh the picture of the world that I

was given when I studied physics at

University

um one thing that is evident to me is

that physics and natural science is a

very good approach when it comes to

trying to understand the natural world

if if we are talking about things like

stars and planets and gravitation and

atmosphere and things like that then

science and experimental science and

empirical science and the positivistic

approach functions very very well but

when it comes to Human

Action uh then we need to complement the

scientific perspective with some sort of

inner perspective that also takes into

account things like our values our

worldview our meaning making uh uh

system and it might even need to take to

into account what we call Consciousness

H and by Consciousness I I mean not just

the content of our mind but really our

mind's um ability to handle both

cognitive and

emotional complexity and to me sorry for

ranting a bit here now but I'm trying to

put a frame here on my thinking that to

me

today I think it's quite evident that

our way of thinking seeing the world our

world viw the way we usually relate to

ourselves to each other to society and

to the

planet that

way uh has now really reached an end of

its

capacity and we are in a major shift

that that must

involve um an inner shift as well

because I think it's interesting because

the way I'm feeling we have for a long

time in our world have this

materialistic worldview right and if you

look just look at the view of the human

brain is basically that our our our soul

lives in the human brain and when the

human when the actual machine so to

speak is gone so is the human right um

whereby I think a lot of people now are

shifting and I would ask you what what

you think I mean when when the brain

disapp appears do you believe there's

something left there is there soul is

there something that is outside of the

physical um physical brain or physical

body uh over what is your view

there first I would like to comment bit

on on this materialistic worldview that

you are referring to um we really got

that worldview during the

Enlightenment when we went from a

dogmatic religious

worldview into a rational scientific

worldview and that worldview focused

very much on the outside world what is

measurable and

predictable and that worldview has been

very successful for us humans and I

think we need to really really

acknowledge that because that worldview

the enlightenment worldview has given us

everything like modern

medicine human rights

democracy and all the things that we

would never want to be without so we

should really be thankful and

appreciative of that worldview but again

at the same time I think it's becoming

more and more evident that that

worldview has really delivered what it

can can deliver on its own and I might

even say that I believe that it is this

worldview that is now the root cause of

many of the existential challenges that

humanity is facing not just the

environmental crisis but also the crisis

in democracy the the the crisis in in

understanding our world some people are

talking about a meaning crisis the

psychological ill health obesity crisis

all all of that I

think could be traced back to the fact

that we need to complement this uh very

successful materialistic worldview with

an inside perspective bring the inner

world into account as well I I agree I

me to me it's a lot that uh we've had a

worldview where you know um basically

you you live until you die and then

you're gone right yeah so the whole idea

is that let's just grab as much as I can

while I'm still alive right and that's

been kind of to me at least the

worldview that we're in right now and I

think um if you look at previous

societies they also had a more

continuation of Life they felt they were

a part of a larger ho and I think that's

what we're a little bit missing here um

absolutely um and and I think also

um and you're a physicist and I it seems

to me that there's more and more growing

scientific evidence also for that

worldview that we're not

only uh you know machines uh and you

know atoms that are randomly put

together but there's some kind of

Consciousness there's some kind of will

or or uh in this but you're smiling now

so see I'm the wrong answer no no no but

I

mean um it's it's um it's difficult I

mean

um one way way to go and that's what why

I was smiling because I think you were

going down the route towards okay so so

in this

world if we reduce things and look at

smaller and smaller things in the

materialistic worldview we end up with

particles but isn't it the case that

Consciousness is really the the

fundament of uh of the world m and

looking at some uh pan

psychism

model um but I don't think that that is

is helpful I think that is being

reductionistic in in in the other uh

Direction I I think the world is more

complex than uh than

that um in the in the book in my book

the world we create I really start that

book by looking at the Big Bang

and and trying to follow some sort

of evolutionary force during the

13.8 billion years that have passed

since the big bang and follow that to

the origin of Life origin of

Consciousness origin of of human culture

and to look at our role as humans in

this world today what what are we what

sort of creatures are we and I don't

think that you one needs to become

religious or have a pound psychic view

of the world to say that there is

definitely some sort

of

evolutionary Source some sort of

evolutionary

force that has been active in the

universe now for 13.8 billion billion

years and you can look at complexity

Theory the theory around evolving

Dynamic complex complex complex systems

that that is really well established now

in in physical science but also in in in

other

sciences and understand that when you

have a complex dynamic system that is

evolving then every now and then you

come to a threat hold where you have the

phenomenon of

emergence meaning

that this complex system suddenly self

organizes in a new way and new

properties that you could not not even

in theory predict before it happens will

emerge and one example of that is of

course

life so how did Life come about from

this dead dead material right material

and that is an emerging phenomenon and

then later on out of this life

Consciousness appears first in very

rudimentary form in simple animals but

then later on in mammal Consciousness

and in human consciousness and that is

also something completely new uh and I

would call it an emergent uh phenomenon

and then a little bit

later out of this Con Consciousness we

develop the capacity of symbolic

language and we start to communicate and

we start to build up some sort of

culture so humans are the only animals

that are able to take some of our

Consciousness some of our deas and build

them into our environment and create

things like World Views and value

systems and

complex symbolic systems and things like

the market exactly exactly no and and I

think also I mean I'm not obviously as

good as in physics as you are but but I

understand that that people have now

been trying to calculate what are the

odds of a string of DNA happening you

know by itself right it's it's minuscule

and even even the the the you know the

billions of years that the Universe has

exist existed is not long enough to kind

of to create that kind of a um that kind

of a random event in a way yeah but it

wasn't completely random so uh no

exactly and that's the point it wasn't

random right so um but do you believe

that there was some sort of

uh uh deterministic Force there was it

an intelligent design putting it I I

believe there's kind of the

Consciousness I think was before matter

if I'm to and that then there's that

some kind of uh

yeah I don't know if you call it the

vine or something but it's it's a uh

some kind of um force that wants to move

things in One Direction right and to

manifest itself want to exactly wants to

I can agree with that yeah to me I mean

and also that's what happened to me

sometimes in in psychedelic experience

i' I've gone back and seen that the

Universe wants to experience itself

right and that's why we have this

duality in in everything right that and

and you know good and bad white and

black uh and it's it's the universe

wanting to experience itself and we're

all a reflection of you and me are the

same thing but we're here to exper

you know um each other in a way um so

and and um yeah yeah no I certainly

believe uh that there is this sort of

evolutionary force that wants to express

itself and this evolutionary Force has

been active now again for 13.8 billion

years but I also think and here is

where I might touch more on on the

spiritual uh uh I think that we have to

realize that we as

humans are actually let's call it

incarnations of that evolutionary force

and that that evolutionary force in the

universe and certainly on on this planet

is acting through US

humans and that makes us very important

co-creators of the world that is

evolving so that we can not just see

ourselves as Spectators to the ongoing

Evolution but we are actually

incarnations of that evolutionary force

and part of at least what I

believe are our human task in life is to

whether we recognize

this um

specifically or not it is

about understanding our role as

co-creators of the world and aligning

ourselves with that process and trying

to help that process forward right as

much or as little as we can as humans

but I think I'm quite humble that I

think that every human being whether you

are in in powerful or influential or or

not is actually playing

a a specific role in this evolutionary

process and if we can wake up to this

and play this role more

consciously uh that will help the

process forward and I think you sorry

just one more thing I think humanity is

right now at a point where in order to

meet these Collective challenges that we

are facing it is not just enough that

some humans individually

wake up to the fact that we are active

co-creators of of of the world but we

also have to somehow

collectively have this Awakening yeah

and I do not see that happening at at

all I mean collectively we are

less awake today as Humanity or at least

as a western civilization a western

Society

than we were 50 years ago okay why are

you saying that why why is it why are we

less uh what how do you measure that or

how how do you well

um again a a lot of things when we are

creating this world we can do

individually as as entrepreneurs or

whatever we want we we we have a lot of

individual agency and during the last

hundreds and hundreds and certainly the

last 50 years

we have generally again in the Western

World become better and better at

realizing that we have individual agency

and also increased our ability to

exercise that individual

agency but some and perhaps some of the

most important aspects when it comes to

creating the new world is about forming

the context forming the system and again

we have to recognize that for example

the market that we mentioned is a human

construct even the free market is a

human construct and could be different

and when we when we want to change those

things we need to do that by exercising

Collective agency and often that is

through legislation yeah but why are we

less conscious than we were 50 years ago

yeah yeah so individually we might be

more able to

to exercise our AG gency but when it

comes to Collective agency again say

that we wanted to form the market change

the market a bit to change okay got so

then we need to exercise Collective

agency and that ability we have been

losing okay because for many reasons but

one of them is of course in order to be

able to exercise Collective agency we

need to have Collective sense making and

around us today as we speak Collective

sense making is breaking down and then

we can talk about why is that but it was

easier for us again in in the west to

make sense of the world collectively 50

years ago agree on some action and then

Implement that through legislation than

it is today okay yeah so that's a bit a

bit like if you look at an individual an

individual who cannot even think for

himself or herself what to do and

becomes completely lame and

non-active is of course an individual

that is much less aware than someone who

can really reflect on their own

situation make sound decisions and then

Implement that in in action that's a

more aware person if you look at the

society it's the same thing a society

that can really make sense of what is

going on make care ful decisions and

then Implement those decisions is a more

aware society and that's why I say that

we are as a society less aware or less

conscious today than we

were even 20 years ago certainly 50

years ago interesting interesting I also

a little bit I mean I'm obviously also

interested about your journey towards

Consciousness and um Can can you tell us

about I mean the Consciousness and being

more conscious as has obviously been a

really important thing in your life what

what are the things what was your

journey what what made you more

conscious and what what lifted you to

the next

level I don't know if if I want to

to frame it that that way okay

um really I think it's more complex than

than than talking about levels of

consciousness

[Music]

but

perhaps one way of seeing it is is going

back to u to uh agency again and if and

I think that I developed my

agency and sense

making during my years as an

entrepreneur uh again started by

studying uh mathematics and physics and

and got a model of the world but

realized very quickly in business that

this scientific model even the model

when I studied a bit of of um economics

at

University was really not very helpful

when dealing with the real business

world the the real human world right

specifically the economic models that we

are still teaching at Business Schools

the the

neoclassical econom macroeconomic yeah

100% um

models are really not at all helpful

when you're trying to be an an

entrepreneur because those models they

more or less assume that the the market

and the business world is a natural

phenomenon that could be modeled through

elegant

mathematical models when again one of

the most important insights I think for

an entrepreneur is

that you are not you are not acting in a

market you you you are actually trying

to create a market for your products or

for your ideas or something so as an

entrepreneur you become quite aware of

your

capacity to be a co-creator of this

world and I think that's was one of the

starting points for me to become more

curious

about different ways of of knowing and

understanding the world starting to see

the scientific perspective as as one

perspective but then complement

complimenting that with more

introspective perspectives but all so

more sociologic perspectives realizing

that again as an entrepreneur when

you're looking at the human world and

you want to create something in that you

you have to realize that the human world

is not a natural phenomenon the human

world is to 90% created by us humans and

could therefore be differently and part

of your task as an entrepreneur is to

make that difference so that got me

interested in a more philosophical

aspect of of the world and trying

to uh

yeah ex explore different ways of of

learning but then one thing that

really uh if I should mention one thing

that

really pushed me a little bit out of my

my comfort zone and I think that is all

always what is needed for your for you

to grow you have to be pushed out of

your comfort zone that was when I was uh

chairman of a small banking group here

in in Scandinavia some 15 years ago or

even a bit longer ago I had the

opportunity to work with some very

talented leadership development

Consultants okay who showed me and my

management team the value of not just

lifelong

learning but lifelong inner growth and

development so they pointed out that

there is a difference between what some

people call horizontal learning where

you learn new skills and facts and

things and new software program or a new

language or something like that which is

of course Very necessary in in a rapidly

moving world that we have horizontal

learning but then we also have the

vertical development that it's more

about developing your inner capacities

to handle both cognitive and emotional

complexity and what happened to you when

you kind of you reached a new level I

mean what what would you say what what

was the change in your life when you

kind of reached a new level of of

Consciousness yeah again uh I I wouldn't

I wouldn't call it level

because in in many ways we have many

dimensions in

ourselves that that we can de develop so

you you can you can speak

about your cognitive abilities your

emotional abilities your abilities for

self-reflection and self understanding

your ability to

relate your relational intelligence if

you want want to call it call it that

but overall what uh what I noticed and

what we noticed in the management team

was that through the these programs

which these Consultants called

leadership development program which I

today would perhaps call personal

development programs or inner

development programs but back then had

they sold it to us as in the development

we wouldn't have bought it we wouldn't

have bought it

I think that's probably still the case

yeah right so leadership development was

was a better framing for for uh for us

but I and we certainly noticed that not

just became we became better at

emotionally and cognitively handle the

complexity of business we we became

better at functioning in a highly

complex business

environment but also this had uh

benefits on us privately as humans as

humans I certainly noticed that in in my

family life and in my private life and

also I think that it for me shifted or

expanded my focus or again expanded my

awareness a bit beyond the immediate

needs of business and

of what my company and my family needed

to expand my my awareness of the needs

of society and the the the larger world

and perhaps a bit further on also future

generations and I think that is perhaps

the most important part of we call it

Consciousness development it it is

expanding your Circles of Care or

Circles of belonging yeah that's

interesting I mean because um um we have

about 10 minutes left on the program and

it's actually two more issues I'd like

to cover way and the first one is I

thought it was really interesting that

you said that we're probably less

conscious now than we were as a society

Collective Consciousness is is less than

50 years ago um so my first question is

again in the in the Western World I'm

talking about Northern Europe Northern

America yeah I I say anything about the

rest of the world right right but my

question is what do we need to do to

kind of reverse what can we do to kind

of get the the needle to move in the

because obviously we need to get more

conscious right otherwise we won't

survive as a race right we we we know

how to solve the climate crisis but

we're not doing it right we have the

technology we have the money to do it

but we're not doing it so what do we

need to do to get get us moving in the

right direction with in terms of

Consciousness yeah

so I think in order for us to develop

this ability of of collective sense

making and and

Collective

agency we need to look at it at least

two three different

areas where one is our individual

capacity to navigate this world that is

compartive 50 years ago much much more

complex both cognitively and emotionally

yeah so it demands more of us as

individuals to be able to hold and

navigate

this and even though the school system

is teaching us a lot of new things

today it doesn't really focus on

developing those capacities that we need

for that so many of us feel more or less

in over our heads today we are not

making sense and then a very natural

human reaction to such a situation is to

look for an external authority to guide

us it could be a dog strong man or

dogmatic religion or a strong

man and that is what we're seeing today

so part of the solution is

to the dictator maybe and you can help

us all to to develop those

capacities um but then the the next step

is to to look at uh the

culture and our world viw and and our

our Collective meaning making and again

we are essentially there stuck

in uh a 200 plus year old uh mind frame

collectively so I think we we need to

update that and that again is not

something that we can do individually

that is something that has to be done as

a society we are in a shift where we

need to adapt some sort of new

richer more pers

multi-perspectival

worldview and then the the the third

aspect that that is more what I would

call the structural aspects that that is

looking at things like the the school

system the legal system the political

system the framework around social media

and things like that so how could we

restructure those things in society and

update those structures for the 21st

century what would the 21st century

really education look like I mean the

education system we have today it's not

20th century education it's 19th century

education we system we have

and then for new things when when

technology is evolving rapidly as it is

social media but also artificial

intelligence and things like that we we

need to catch up on the societal systems

that are regulating and guiding those

Technologies so that they will support

human Collective sense making instead of

as I believe that they certainly social

media but also artificial intelligence

might if we are not careful instead of

building the capacity for Collective

sense making actually be destroying our

capacity for Collective sense making so

what what I'm hearing is that it's

basically three levels I mean it's first

individual development of course that we

need to take responsibility for we need

to also you know um work at our ability

to to collectively uh and maybe you know

through different social media and stuff

like that but also institutions yeah

institution legislation and on the

cultural side it's of course very much

around narratives what are the stories

we are telling ourselves around humans

why are we

here um what is our task why do we have

a society what is the purpose and then

again we are into the spiritual aspects

and even religious aspects because of

course that has traditionally been the

realm of religion and spirituality to

give us those answers and when we are

are now at least in northern Europe

becoming more and more secular societies

then of course we cannot leave those

questions off the table no no I we we

need to find secular approaches to those

existential questions and those stories

and

narratives um yes so um we have a little

bit more time or yeah so just last

question then if if if you were to give

advice to a young young person that

wanted to be both uh you know successful

financially but also uh be conscious uh

what would be your uh and expand his or

her Consciousness what would be your

advice

yeah yes and I truly believe that there

is not a

contradiction between uh being

successful in business and being more

conscious or more aware rather the

opposite uh and uh here

uh uh my colleague and friend Oto

scharmer has got a uh very good

expression and even title of a book He's

talk he's talking about leading from the

emerging Future Okay um and I think that

you as an

entrepreneur

and business person you don't need

perhaps to be an entrepreneur you you

could be an a business person you can

develop an ability to sense

into um

Society sends into your

environment and perhaps even send into

the future as it

emerges and if you develop that sens

ility which you do not need to call a a

spiritual sensibility but I think I

think it is because what you are feeling

into is this ongoing evolutionary force

of the universe and if you can feel into

that and align yourself with that and be

a positive

servant of that evolutionary impulse in

the universe then your business will be

successful and hopefully it will also do

good for you for Humanity and the planet

I think that's I love that really nice

uh ending of this because I I can just

say that myself um I mean that was one

of my big developments when I started to

have this experiences 12 years ago is

the ability to have inter ition and to

sense where where things are going and

and I think so I think that's a

beautiful advice and not just ride that

but also so influence it a bit you surf

on those waves and you can make

decisions but you cannot surf against

the wave you need to identify the wave

wave I think it's beautifully put and

and and I wish we actually had more time

um uh I felt that we I would have loved

to have continued this conversation for

much longer and will be for a second you

have to come back for a second episode

thank you so much thomask thank you so

much it's been a pleasure yeah pleasure

to have you here thank you thank

you