What is ultra-processed food? - The Food Chain podcast, BBC World Service

Summary

The BBC World Service's 'The Food Chain' explores the prevalence and impact of ultra-processed foods (UPF) in our diets. Host Ruth Alexander discusses how these products, often found in supermarkets, can be difficult to avoid due to their appealing taste and convenience. The show delves into the challenges faced by individuals attempting to reduce their UPF consumption, the difficulty in identifying such foods, and the broader implications for health. The Nova food classification system is introduced as a way to categorize foods by their level of processing. The program also touches on the role of nutrition labels in guiding consumer choices, the influence of government policies, and the importance of home cooking as a means to reduce UPF intake. It concludes with a call to action for listeners to share their experiences and insights on the topic.

Takeaways

• 🍰 More than half the calories consumed in countries like the UK and the US are thought to come from ultra-processed food (UPF).
• 🛒 Most supermarket products are ultra-processed, making it difficult for consumers to avoid them.
• 🍟 Common examples of UPF include carbonated drinks, commercial cookies, cakes, muffins, confectionery, chips, crisps, and pretzels.
• 🏭 Ultra-processed foods are industrially manufactured and often contain additives and substances not typically used in home cooking.
• 🧀 The Nova food classification system categorizes foods into four groups, with the fourth group being ultra-processed.
• 🔍 Ultra-processed products are made to mimic and appeal to consumers, often containing additives not found in unprocessed foods.
• 📈 Studies have shown a link between UPF and increased health risks such as obesity, cardiovascular disease, and cancer.
• 🍳 Reducing UPF consumption often requires a significant shift towards cooking and preparing food from scratch.
• 👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 Parents find it challenging to provide snacks and meals for their children without resorting to UPF due to convenience and affordability.
• 🛡️ Some countries like Chile and Mexico have implemented policies such as taxation, labeling, and marketing restrictions to control UPF.
• 📊 The effectiveness of nutrition warning labels on food packaging in changing consumer behavior is mixed, with some shoppers overlooking them when in a hurry.
• 🌐 Open Food Facts, a non-profit organization, provides an app to help consumers identify ultra-processed foods by scanning product barcodes.

Q & A

What is the general perception of ultra-processed foods in countries like the UK and the US?

More than half the calories consumed in countries like the UK and the US are thought to come from ultra-processed foods, which are often difficult to avoid due to their prevalence in supermarkets.

What is the Nova food classification system?

The Nova food classification system, proposed in 2010, categorizes foods according to their level of processing. It divides foods into four groups: unprocessed or minimally processed foods, refined ingredients, processed foods, and ultra-processed foods.

Why are ultra-processed foods considered potentially harmful to health?

Ultra-processed foods are associated with an increased risk of health problems such as obesity, high blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, and cancer due to their high levels of additives, salt, sugar, and often unhealthy ingredients.

How does Jen Sherman, a listener from California, approach reducing ultra-processed foods in her family's diet?

Jen Sherman has been on a drive to reduce the amount of ultra-processed food her family eats by cooking more meals from scratch, packing fruit and vegetable snacks for her kids, and keeping a close eye on ingredient lists when shopping.

What are some examples of ultra-processed foods mentioned in the transcript?

Examples of ultra-processed foods mentioned include carbonated drinks, fruit and vegetable juices, ready-to-drink tea or coffee, most ice cream, commercial cookies, cakes, muffins, confectionary, chips or crisps, and pretzels.

What is the role of additives in the classification of ultra-processed foods?

Additives play a significant role in the classification of ultra-processed foods as these are substances not typically used in home kitchens and are added to create products that are appealing, convenient, and often mimic the qualities of natural foods.

What is the impact of ultra-processed food on the daily life of individuals trying to reduce their consumption?

Reducing ultra-processed food consumption requires a significant shift in lifestyle, including more time spent cooking and planning meals, as well as being more conscious of the ingredients in the food they purchase.

What are some challenges faced by individuals trying to avoid ultra-processed foods?

Challenges include the difficulty in identifying ultra-processed foods, the appeal and convenience of these products, the cost and accessibility of alternatives, and social situations where ultra-processed foods are commonly served.

How do nutrition warning labels on food packaging in countries like Chile influence consumer behavior?

Nutrition warning labels can influence consumer behavior by making them more aware of the health implications of certain foods. However, the impact may be limited, especially when consumers are in a hurry or when ultra-processed foods are cheaper or more convenient.

What is the perspective of the food industry on the term 'ultra-processed foods' and the potential for labeling such products?

The food industry is aware of the term but does not actively use it. They follow scientific evidence and government guidelines, and while they acknowledge consumer awareness and confusion, they are not currently advocating for specific ultra-processed food labels.

What advice is given to consumers who want to identify and avoid ultra-processed foods?

Consumers are advised to look for foods with the simplest ingredient lists, choose products made of one ingredient when possible, and avoid items with ingredients they do not recognize or use in their own kitchens.

Outlines

00:00

🍰 The Prevalence and Challenge of Ultra-Processed Foods

The first paragraph introduces the concept of ultra-processed foods (UPFs), highlighting that over half of the daily caloric intake in countries like the UK and the US may come from such products. It discusses the difficulty of avoiding UPFs due to their prevalence in supermarkets and the lack of clear definitions and public awareness. The segment also touches on the Nova food classification system, which categorizes foods based on their level of processing, and the challenges of reducing UPF consumption, especially when it comes to snacks and convenience foods for children.

05:06

🧑‍🍳 Navigating the Complexities of Ultra-Processed Foods

The second paragraph delves into the differences between normal food and ultra-processed products, which are designed to mimic and appeal more than actual food, often containing additives not used in home kitchens. It mentions the correlation between UPFs and health issues such as obesity, high blood pressure, and cancer, although the direct causation is challenging to prove. The narrative includes personal anecdotes from individuals attempting to reduce their UPF intake and the practical difficulties they face, including the time-consuming nature of cooking from scratch and societal pressures.

10:09

🛒 The Struggle to Identify and Avoid Ultra-Processed Foods

The third paragraph continues the discussion on the challenges of identifying ultra-processed foods without clear labeling. It explores the experiences of individuals who have attempted to eliminate or reduce UPFs in their diet and the strategies they employed, such as making stock from scratch and avoiding convenience foods. The segment also highlights the influence of policy in countries like Chile and Mexico, where efforts to tax, label, and restrict the marketing of UPFs to children have shown some positive impact on consumption patterns.

15:11

🏷️ The Impact of Warning Labels and Public Awareness

The fourth paragraph examines the effectiveness of nutrition warning labels on food packaging in influencing consumer behavior. It presents interviews with shoppers who are aware of these labels but may not always consider them in their purchasing decisions. The discussion also contrasts the perspectives of those who find certain UPFs convenient and affordable with the growing recognition that these products may not be as healthy as perceived. The paragraph concludes with insights from a parent who adapts cooking practices to provide healthier, less processed alternatives for his children.

20:18

🤔 The Debate and Confusion Over Ultra-Processed Foods

The fifth paragraph addresses the debate surrounding the classification of ultra-processed foods and the need for clear labeling. It discusses the challenges of identifying UPFs through an app developed by Open Food Facts and the confusion that arises when seemingly healthy products are revealed as ultra-processed. The segment also includes expert opinions on the potential benefits of labeling and the industry's perspective on consumer awareness and the current evidence regarding UPFs and health.

25:19

👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 A Call to Action for a Change in Food Choices

The sixth paragraph concludes the discussion by emphasizing the role of consumer choices in driving change in the food industry. It suggests that while clear labeling of UPFs could be beneficial, a more significant impact may come from raising public awareness about the nature of UPFs and encouraging home cooking and the preference for less processed foods. The paragraph ends with a call to listeners to share topics they'd like explored on the program, reinforcing the importance of community engagement in shaping food choices and policies.

30:21

🌟 The Role of Consumer Behavior in Influencing the Food Industry

The seventh and final paragraph is not provided in the input, so it is not included in the output. If it had been included, it would have followed the same structure as the other paragraphs, with a title beginning with an emoji and a detailed summary capturing the main points of the content.

Keywords

💡Ultra-processed food

Ultra-processed food refers to products that have been industrially manufactured and contain a high number of additives, often with little to no whole food ingredients. They are typically ready-to-consume items found in the inner aisles of supermarkets. In the video, it is discussed how these foods are prevalent in diets in countries like the UK and the US and are associated with various health issues.

💡Nova food classification system

The Nova food classification system is a method of categorizing foods based on their degree of processing. Proposed by scientists, it divides foods into four groups, with the fourth group being ultra-processed foods. The system is mentioned in the video as a way to help consumers understand the level of processing their food has undergone.

💡Health risks

Health risks associated with ultra-processed foods include an increased risk of obesity, high blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, and cancer. These risks are discussed in the video as a reason why some individuals and health experts are advocating for a reduction in the consumption of ultra-processed foods.

💡Convenience foods

Convenience foods are a type of ultra-processed food that is quick and easy to prepare, often at the expense of nutritional value. The video highlights the challenge of reducing their consumption due to their prevalence and the busy lifestyles that rely on them.

💡添加剂 (Additives)

添加剂 are substances added to food to improve its taste, appearance, or shelf life. The video discusses how additives are commonly found in ultra-processed foods and can contribute to their appeal but may also be linked to negative health outcomes.

💡Nutritional quality

Nutritional quality refers to the nutritional value of food, including its content of essential nutrients. The video contrasts the nutritional quality of ultra-processed foods with whole, unprocessed foods, often finding the former lacking despite their appeal and convenience.

💡Food labeling

Food labeling involves providing information about a food product on its packaging, such as ingredients, nutritional content, and warnings. The video discusses the potential benefits and limitations of having labels that identify ultra-processed foods, with examples from countries like Chile that have implemented such measures.

💡Cooking from scratch

Cooking from scratch means preparing food using fresh, whole ingredients rather than relying on pre-made or processed ingredients. The video highlights cooking from scratch as a way to reduce the intake of ultra-processed foods and improve diet quality, although it acknowledges the time and effort this requires.

💡Ingredient lists

Ingredient lists are the detailed components found on food packaging that show what the product is made of. The video emphasizes the importance of reading ingredient lists to identify and avoid ultra-processed foods, as those with long lists of unfamiliar ingredients are often ultra-processed.

💡Public awareness

Public awareness refers to the collective knowledge and understanding of the general population about a particular issue. The video discusses the role of public awareness in driving changes in food consumption habits and the potential for this awareness to influence industry practices.

💡Food industry

The food industry encompasses all businesses involved in the processing, marketing, and sale of food products. The video touches on the food industry's role in the prevalence of ultra-processed foods and the challenges faced by health advocates in shifting industry practices towards less processed food options.

Highlights

More than half the calories in countries like the UK and the US are from ultra-processed food.

Most products sold in supermarkets are ultra-processed, making them difficult to avoid.

Ultra-processed foods include commonly consumed items like carbonated drinks, commercial cookies, and frozen pizzas.

The Nova classification system categorizes foods based on their level of processing.

Fresh or minimally processed foods are identified as the healthiest options in the Nova system.

Ultra-processed foods are defined as formulations of refined substances and additives.

Scientific studies link ultra-processed foods to health risks like obesity and cardiovascular diseases.

Countries like Brazil and France advise consumers to avoid ultra-processed foods.

Practical challenges include managing children's diets amid pervasive ultra-processed foods in social settings.

Some countries have implemented nutritional warning labels to help consumers identify unhealthy foods.

The food industry has been slow to acknowledge the issues related to ultra-processed foods.

Emerging scientific evidence supports the harmful effects of ultra-processed foods, though some debate remains.

Public health policies are beginning to reflect growing concerns over ultra-processed foods.

Individual efforts to avoid ultra-processed foods often involve increased home cooking and scrutinizing ingredient lists.

The conversation about ultra-processed foods is moving from nutrients to broader food practices and impacts on health.

Transcripts

Cakes, muffins, confectionary, chips or crisps,  pretzel, frozen pizza, frozen meals... - What if I said  

that more than half the calories you consume are  from ultra-processed food? That's thought to be the  

case in countries like the UK and the US. - Most products sold in supermarkets are ultra-processed,  

so it's very difficult to avoid them.  This is The Food Chain from the BBC World Service.

I'm Ruth Alexander, and this week we're asking: Is this ultra-processed? It's not always easy to know. There are  

lots of different definitions and a fair amount  of confusion. Generally, we're talking about food  

that's been industrially manufactured.  - Yeah, we try to avoid all that stuff, but sometimes  

we fall into it because they have some  special taste that it's hard to say no 

to it, sometimes.

We'll be finding out how to spot it. Mayonnaise. I had this with my lunch.  

It's ultra-processed! Oh, that surprises me!  How to cut down on it, if that's what you want to do.  

I think the hardest part is the snack bits,  because I've got to pack two snacks a day for the  

kids for school. - And what to eat instead. - That  means cooking. It's a huge shift in people's life.

It all started with an email to [email protected] from a listener, Jen Sherman, an  

Australian who lives in California in the United  States with her husband and two young children.  

She's been on a drive to reduce the amount of ultra-  processed food her family eats, or UPF as she calls it,  

and suggested we should make a programme about  people trying to do that. So we gave her a call.  

- I like listening to programmes about ultra-processed  food, and what I thought was interesting was  

all of these podcasts talk about it from the  science perspective, so they interview the researchers  

and they talk about the science behind this, and  what I thought would be useful was, what does it  

look like to actually follow their advice? How do  you actually follow their advice? Because it's very  

easy to know the information and to think, right,  I shouldn't be eating this much UPF because it's  

not good for me, it's not good for my kids. But when  you have a birthday party every second weekend and  

there's class parties at school for Valentine's  Day and Halloween and Easter when UPF is  

everywhere, how do you actually reduce it? Because  the other thing about UPF, it's not just the  

crackers and the biscuits and the lollies,  it's also, you know, your pasta sauces and  

your convenience meals and all the stuff that  you might not think of as UPF.

What exactly is ultra-processed food?

- Carbonated drinks, fruit  and vegetables juices, ready-to-drink tea  

or coffee, sports and energy drinks, most of  the ice cream on the market, commercial cookies,  

cakes, muffins, confectionary, most of the sweet and  savoury snacks, such as chips or crisps, pretzel...  

It would probably have been easier to ask what isn't  ultra-processed.

- ...hot dogs, commercial soups, sauces, dressing...  

- Jean-Claude Moubarac, assistant professor in public  and international nutrition at the University of  

Montreal in Canada, has worked with the team  of scientists in Brazil who came up with the term.

They proposed the Nova food classification  system in 2010, a new way of categorising foods  

according to their level of processing. - Nova is a classification of foods that pays attention  

to the degree and the purpose of processing. So,  how much processing is applied to food, and why  

processing is applied. Nova classify food into  four main groups. The first one are foods that  

are fresh or minimally processed. - Such as fruit  and vegetables, meat, milk, and eggs. - Group two are  

ingredients that are refined from food and  are used to cook and season food.  

- Salt, sugar, olive oil, butter, vinegar. - Group three are made of foods that are preserved with salt, sugar, and fat,  

such as canned food, traditional bread and cheese,  and the fourth group are ultra-processed, which are  

a formulation of refined substances and additives.  Those are products that are not food any more, but  

are a collection of substances that are selected  to create products of consumption. Irresistible, very  

appealing, very convenient. - And this is where it  starts to get tricky, because some foods can appear  

in any one of the groups. - For example, yoghurts. So  you can have a plain yoghurt that we will classify  

as minimally processed. Then when you add sugar to it, it becomes processed food, so yoghurt plus sugar.  

And then you can create also an ultra-processed yoghurt by adding flavours and colours, and  

additives such as emulsifiers. You're changing the  texture, the colour, the taste of the food. 

- You don't recognise it as food, it's bad for us, you and  the group of scientists who came up with this  

classification believe. - Ultra-processed products  are very different from normal food. They're  

made to mimic food and to be more appealing. So for  any food on the market, there's an ultra-processed  

version of it, and the ultra-processed version has additives and substances that we don't use in kitchens. 

- The positives of processing is that  it can make food cheaper, last longer, look and  

taste appetising. But it may not be good for us.  A number of studies have shown an association  

between ultra-processed food and increased risk  of health problems, such as obesity, high blood  

pressure and cholesterol, cardiovascular disease,  and cancer. But it's hard to prove for sure that  

it's the level of processing causing this, rather  than something else, such as lifestyle, or simply  

the fact that ultra-processed foods can contain  high levels of salt and sugar. But scientists  

continue to investigate, and eight countries, Brazil,  Peru, Ecuador, Uruguay, Israel, France, and Belgium, are  

advising consumers to avoid ultra-processed food.  Easier said than done, as our listener Jen can attest. 

I read ingredient lists. I assume until proven  otherwise that anything I find in the supermarket is UPF. 

- Oh right, guilty till proven innocent, in your view? - Pretty much! - And how challenging has it  

been overall, like how big an impact has this had  on your day-to-day life? - It means I cook a lot, it  

means I spend a lot of my time in the kitchen,  but some of it is because I want to, and some of  

it is because I can. You can use the slow cooker  a lot, which is fantastic. There's a handful of  

recipes that I do that's just you chuck the  stuff in the slow cooker in the morning and  

then eight hours later, you've got dinner. I think the  hardest part is the snack bits. I've got to  

pack two snacks a day for the kids for school, and  what I've done is just I use fruit and vegetables  

as their snack a lot of the time, I do a lot of  carrot sticks, and capsicum, bell peppers, cucumbers,  

we do berries, so blueberries and strawberries  tend to last pretty well. - Have you cut out all  

ultra-processed foods? Has that been possible?  - No. I've got boxes of mac and cheese in the backup pantry. 

- Macaroni cheese? - Yup. I'm going to have a bunch  of boxes in the pantry as backup. - So, in an ideal  

world, would you cut all ultra-processed food out,  but in reality, you've discovered all you can  

do really is reduce it you can't live without it, practically?  - Pretty much. - And what do friends  

and families and other parents think of your  mission to radically cut down on ultra-processed  

food? I mean, do you tell them about it? Do they know?  I don't tend to talk about this, because I don't...

I don't want to present myself as a crusader, just  by talking to you on the BBC Food Chain. I don't want  

to present myself in real life as some kind  of crusader against food that is so common  

in most households with small children, or even  without small children. Like, I don't want to make  

people think I'm judging them for what they're  eating or what they're feeding their families,  

because I'm not. Because money is also a factor, and  sometimes if you're feeding 30 or 40 people at a  

four-year-old's birthday party, you go for the  cheaper pizza, because that's what is affordable. 

And a lot of the time in the short term, UPF is cheaper. - From your own experience, do you think  

it's practical, like doable, for other people? Because  you don't go out to work, do you? So you do have  

more time than many people listening to cook  and prepare food from scratch at home. 

- I mean, it's impractical for me to entirely cut it out, so I  think it's impractical for anyone to entirely  

cut it out, but I think it's definitely possible to  reduce it. Try and reduce a bit at a time, because  

for any change, like drastic change is very hard  to do and very hard to sustain long-term. If you've  

been eating UPF a lot, and suddenly trying to cut  it all out, like that's going to be hard. But if  

you just change one meal a week, just you know cook  one of them, cook two of them. - When you're out there  

in the supermarket, trying to figure out what is  ultra-processed and what isn't, would a UPF label be useful?  

- Oh that'd be great, I'd love that. - Listener Jen Sherman. Well, someone who tried the drastic

route is programme producer, Beatrice Pickup. Didn't you  Beatrice? You set yourself a challenge in January to  

cut out all ultra-processed food. Was that fun? - Well, like all good New Year resolutions, I failed  

on day one. We went for a New Year's Day walk, ended  up in a pub, and I didn't want to have an alcoholic  

drink, because I'd had a few the night before. And  in fact, alcohol usually is processed, whereas all  

the soft drinks in the pub that day were ultra- processed. So I found myself with a bit of a difficult  

choice in terms of which was the healthier option,  and ultimately I went for an ultra-processed soft drink. 

- Could have gone for water! So what did you  have to try and avoid then?

- Bread. Bread was quite a big one for us,

and we don't have a bakery locally  where we live. Stock cubes was a surprising one for me.  

I hadn't realised that if I'm making a meal from  scratch but adding an ultra-processed stock cube to it,  

obviously that's a fail for me. - I didn't realise  that either. Oh dear. - Did get me into good habits,  

though. Making stock from scratch, and making a  big batch of it and putting it in the freezer so  

that when I do want to make a meal using stock I  already had some. - Which food did you miss the most?  

- Crisps! Crisps are my favourite snack, so that was  quite a big one for me for the month of January.  

But I didn't realise until the making of this  programme that in fact I could have been having  

crisps, as long as they were just the plain, salted  variety. So I did miss out there. - But that again,  

there's the quandry, if you'd known that and you'd  had the plain ready salted crisps, that wouldn't  

necessarily have been good for you. - I assume that they're  processed food, because I think of crisps as junk  

food, but in fact it's the flavourings that are the  problem there. - And what would you say your biggest  

take home was about the whole thing? Biggest learning? - It did take a lot of thought and planning  

and effort. It was entirely, mostly, doable, and it  did get me into some good habits, and there was  

cooking more, and it's a reminder that it's quite  easy to make a lot of things. We made pizza one  

weekend for example, which is great, although I did  get into a bad baking habit. I started baking cakes  

every weekend, when I'm not someone who normally  buys a lot of cakes or biscuits. So in some ways my  

sugar consumption might have gone up. - Interesting!  How good was it when February came around, finally?  

- I bought a big bag of crisps! - Oh good, then. Thanks, Beatrice.

It's been 14 years since Jean-Claude  

Moubarac's colleagues came up with their definition  of ultra-processed food and, in his view, created  

a new understanding of what it is we're eating.  - I think it has a huge impact in changing how people  

think about food. The most important thing we've  done is to change the mind of the people, from  

nutrients to practices. So before Nova, people were  talking about fibre, about sugar, about salt. With  

Nova, we talk about why we process food and why we  use such additives versus natural substances. It's  

a change in the way people think about food, and  we're getting also an impact on policies, but it's  

something that's a little slower to  obtain, because there's a lot of resistance in the  

market from companies that are producing those  ultra-processed foods. - You helped devise Brazil's  

national food policy in 2014, which advised against  eating ultra-processed food. Do you think it's made  

a difference to what people are buying and much  ultra-processed foods they're consuming?  

- To my knowledge, no. In order to change the food system,  you need to have strong political will. What  

happened in Brazil in the last 10 years was a lot  of change in terms of the government, so it's hard  

to answer this question, but we don't see an impact  on the data in terms of sales or consumption, or  

in terms of health. - Is there any country you've  seen that you're impressed by, and you think, yes,  

this is the beginning of it? - For example in Chile  and Mexico, there is strong policies to control  

ultra-processed food, such as taxation and labelling,  and also restriction of marketing to kids. In those  

countries, they have shown some impact on reducing  sales and consumption of ultra-processed food.  

- In many countries, you can find nutrition labels on  the front of food packaging. But Chile is one of  

the few to make them mandatory. In 2016, it said  that foods with high levels of added salt, sugar,  

and saturated fats, or with a high calorie content,  must carry prominent warning labels. In light of  

these changes, our reporter Jane Chambers has been  talking to people about the decisions they're now  

making about what food they buy.

- I'm in the local supermarket on the outskirts of a seaside town  

called Quintero, and it's full of produce. There's bread,  cereals, chocolate, crisps, coffee, all the usual  

things you would normally see in a supermarket.  And I've found a shopper willing to talk to me. Your name is...?  

- Hi. Elizabeth. - And we've got these black labels that  they put on food here in Chile that's been on it  

for quite a few years now, that show if it's high  in salt, or sugar, or fat. When you're buying, are  

you aware of the labels? Do they make a difference  to what you buy? - Uh, yeah. Now it does make a  

difference for me, and uh we really try to avoid  that, but anyway when we are in a hurry I think  

we just pick the things that we know already,  and the things that we like. - So do you sometimes  

forget about the labels if you're in a hurry?  - Yeah, it really does. Yeah because it's um I think there's  

also all the tasty food and um all the nice food  that normally the kids like is like full of  

labels and sugar and all that things. - So it's a kind of ultra-processed food that they like?  

- Yeah. So even if you try to avoid it, it's easier to  buy, and most of the people, we buy that kind  

of food because it's cheaper. - What about since the  labels have come in; have you been surprised that  

some food you might have thought was healthy  hasn't been as healthy as you think?  

- The cereal, cereal bars, and um the things for the lunch for my kid. I used to think that is it was healthy  

but now I realise since the labels that they're  not really healthy.

- I'm off now just a couple of

miles down the road to the beach, to meet another  parent, who I know is interested in the labels and  

what's going on with ultra-processed food and  what he feeds his children. You can probably  

hear the sounds of cooking. That's because Diego  Arenas is busy making lunch for his two children,  

Gaston and Emma. It's smelling good! You got fish  for lunch with garlic? - Yeah, garlic and ginger.  

- When you're making things like lunch for your children,  feeding your children, what kind of things do you  

like to cook for them? - They always want to have  something really sweet and the usual stuff that  

they see everywhere, so it's not easy not to give  them an ice cream or lots of sweets and stuff. So  

we try to make them nice and sweet and healthy  things, natural ice creams and things from fruits.

[Clanking saucepans and family talking]

- And what about the black labels that  show if it's high in salt, or sugar, or fat,  

is that something you're aware of when you  go shopping, and what do you think about it?  

- Yeah, we are aware. They know that they can  ask for some food, but if it's one full of  

them with three or four of these black  labels, we try to avoid them. - And you've got  

Gaston, your son, sitting beside you, and Emma  across eating your delicious fish with ginger  

that you just made. What kind of treats  do they like to have, when they can have it? 

- Oh, Emma likes a lot some like jelly and sweet  and sour stuff, like gums. And he likes hot stuff  

like nachos. It's a special treat. Or when they  go to a birthday or something like that, or for  

Halloween, or for some other special times.  - And if there was a label that said something was ultra-processed 

food, would you like to see labels like  that, like the other black labels, would that help  

when you're shopping? - Yeah, they should, they should  be like that. I don't know, but yeah, we try to avoid  

all that stuff, but sometimes we fall into it  because they have some special taste that it's  

hard to say no to it, sometimes.

- Parents in Chile talking to Jane Chambers. So, nutrition warning  

labels on foods may not be the silver bullet that  transform our shopping habits, but Jean-Claude Moubarac  

believes they're worth having.

- There's a limit to those warning labels, but it's a first step  

to give a strong message to the population that  not everything at the supermarket is healthy, and  

that's a major shift, because up till recently, our  guidelines never talked about what to avoid, you know?  

Guidelines usually are about what to eat, so  you eat more fruits, more vegetables, more yoghurt.  

But we rarely talk about what to avoid. So those  labels are a first step to show the consumers  

not everything on the market is healthy. Try to  think and choose wisely. - How can someone spot  

an ultra-processed food and avoid it? - The easiest  way would be just to flip it around. I would say  

the best food in the market are food that have  no labels. So those are easy to identify: Fruits,  

vegetables, legumes, meat, milk... everything that is  made of one ingredient is healthy by definition.  

Now of course, it depends on how you cook it  and how you combine it, but when you choose a  

product at the supermarket, if it's made of one  ingredient, it's healthy. Then when you go into  

those products that have a list of ingredients, try  to choose the product that have the most simple  

list of ingredients and avoid those that have  ingredients that you don't use in your kitchen.  

When you don't understand the list of ingredients,  then leave it aside and go for a product that has  

has a list of ingredients that you recognise.  - I noticed that there are some foods that would be  

classified by your system as ultra-processed  foods, that actually there's an important  

need for. Baby formula is one. Gluten-free products  are important for some people with coeliac disease,  

for example. I mean, there is considerable debate  about all this, isn't there? - When we talk about  

coeliac disease, or you know, this case of milk  formula, to me these are miracles that save lives, 

but I see this as medicine. When you cannot give  breastfed milk to your kid then you need an  

alternative, and what we have is milk formula, which  is the next best thing we have, but to me it's a medication.  

- Do you manage to avoid ultra-processed  food entirely? - So what we try is not to bring them  

at home. So it's not part of our regular pantry.  But do we sometimes consume them outside the  

house? Yes. Because we do live in society, like  everyone else. - Jean-Claude Moubarac. In my house, we  

cook most meals from scratch, so I have presumed  that I don't eat much ultra-processed food, but  

let's see now. I've downloaded an app that says it  can tell me how good the nutritional content of  

a product is and whether it's ultra-processed. So  here on the countertop is wholemeal sliced bread.  

I'm scanning the barcode, and the app tells me  this is nutritionally very good quality, but... oh!  

It's ultra-processed. [Klaxon] Confusing. Right, dark chocolate,  an occasional treat. OK, probably a too-frequent  

treat. [Klaxon] Nutritionally bad. That's probably not a  surprise. But it gets a green dot, telling me that  

it's not ultra-processed. Mixed messages again.  Let's have a rummage in my fridge. Mayonnaise.  

I had this with my lunch. It's... ultra-processed! [Klaxon]  Oh, that surprises me! Mustard. Now, this I imagine is  

just processed, not ultra-processed. [Klaxon] Wrong! What's in mustard? Stabiliser, xanthan gum.

What's in my freezer?

[Ruth rummages in her kitchen]

Fish fingers. I think of this as making  a healthy meal... [Ting!] Yep, nutritionally good...   

and ultra-processed. [Klaxon]

I wonder what's for dinner tonight, then? The app is by Open Food Facts, a non-profit  

organisation set up 10 years ago as an online  database of food products. There are more than three  

million items listed, and anyone, anywhere, can add a  product, as co-founder Pierre Slamich explained to me.  

- So, you will take the picture of the ingredients list,  artificial intelligence will extract it, and we will  

recognise all the ingredients, and if we spot some  markers of ultra-processing, then the food will be  

labelled as so. Most products sold in supermarkets  are ultra-processed, so it's very difficult to  

avoid them. We explain in Open Food Facts, the  ingredients that actually causes the food to be ultra-processed.

- It's not so clear, even with your app,  to work out what is and isn't a good choice, though,  

I found. I mean, for example, the sliced brown bread,  wholemeal bread, that I'd bought, when I zapped  

it with the app, it came up as being very good  nutritional quality, and ultra-processed. So there's  

conflicting information out there. - So yeah, it's a  big problem, because foods that are nutritionally  

healthy, that don't have too much salt, too much fat,  too much sugar, still will have additives. The rule  

of thumb is to try and get the food, if you can't  find anything that's not ultra-processed, try to  

pick the one with the least amount of additives.  As a French person, I would say buy your bread  

from the boulangerie, but if you go for the supermarket  bread, look for the one with fibres, and look for  

the one that have the least amount of additives.  - I wonder, is there a risk that people get overly and  

maybe needlessly anxious about what they're eating?  I mean, I could have probably happily spent a good  

couple of hours scanning everything in my kitchen  cupboards yesterday. - So, there's no point in being too  

anxious about it. Having a moment where when you  realise that a lot of it is ultra-processed, and  

then trying to do your own cooking if possible,  trying to stick to the shortest ingredient list  

possible, so anything above five to 10 ingredients  is probably um a bit complicated. And be careful  

about false friends. Some food will be packaged  and marketed as healthy food, as authentic food, but  

sometimes it can hide a UPF. If you don't recognise  most ingredients, put it back on the shelf.  

Pierre Slamich.

We made a programme called 'Do we need to talk  about ultra-processed food?' in 2021. Then, we asked  

Kate Halliwell, the chief scientific officer at the  UK's Food and Drink Federation, which represents  

manufacturers, how aware their members were of the  term "ultra-processed foods". - We've of course heard  

of it, so I'd say there is an awareness, but  it isn't a term that we would use, and it isn't  

something that we're kind of actively working on.  - But plenty of other people have been working on it.  

In 2022, the UK government's scientific advisory  committee on nutrition said that it was timely  

to consider this issue, since there was increasing  discussion and debate regarding the implications  

of food processing on health. It concluded that,  while concerning, there are uncertainties  

around the quality of evidence available, and more  research was needed. We asked Kate Halliwell whether  

the industry's position has changed. - Since 2021, we  have seen really an explosion of publications,  

I would say, in this space. We have also had a lot  more media interest in this topic. So I think  

that has led to generally people being more  interested in it, as well as some confusions over  

what it actually means, and what's the appropriate  response for companies to it. So we have been  

following the scientific publications that have  been ongoing, and I think what's been very helpful  

to us in the UK is that the scientific advisory  committee on nutrition, their conclusion was that  

the evidence-base, although there's a lot, it is  still very weak. So as it stands at the moment, they  

have not recommended that here in the UK we change  our guidelines. - There are scientists out there who  

I think would absolutely disagree that the  evidence is weak. I mean, the US National  

Institutes of Health carried out a randomised  control trial, the gold standard of scientific  

studies, and that showed a causal relationship  between ultra-processed food and weight gain. So  

there is emerging scientific evidence that ultra-  processed food isn't good for you, but there's  

debate about what might be going on, why that might  be the case. - You know, there's still papers to be  

published and actually what SACN, the  body I just referred to, also said, was that what  

was needed was more randomised control trials, or  also cohort studies they call them, so they don't  

think that evidence is there yet. Of course, in the  future it might emerge, and if there was something  

specific that was needed to be overlaid on top of  the nutrition guidelines, then, you know, industry  

would look to understand that, and implement it.  - Are you not out of step with consumers who are  

increasingly aware of the concept of ultra-  processed food and concerned about it?  

- So I think consumers are increasingly aware, you're absolutely right. I think they're both concerned and confused,  

actually, as to what it means, because actually some  foods which would be classed as ultra-processed  

under Nova would actually fall within those healthy  eating guidelines that government recommends.  

So I think it is confusing, absolutely, and that's why  I think for our companies it's right that we do  

look to the scientific evidence, but we also follow  what our government and our expert committees are  

recommending that we do. - If scientific research  in the future showed a clear causal link between  

ultra-processed food and ill health, if there  was more evidence that clearly pointed in that  

direction, would the industry and the Federation  respond by applying labels that identified the  

food as ultra-processed so consumers could  make an informed decision when they're in  

the shopping aisle? - If evidence emerged, which  it hasn't yet, but you know, science evolves all  

the time, so if evidence emerged that showed  there was something specific that needed to  

go into our dietary guidelines, then yes of course  industry would respond to that. 

Kate Halliwell.

So it's unlikely that food and drink manufacturers  will be flagging up ultra-processed products  

anytime soon, and the onus will remain on the  individual to spot it. Pierre Slamich is optimistic,  

though, that people's buying habits could bring  about change.

- In a perfect world, basically, food  

would be clearly labelled front of pack so you  would have clear warnings about ultra-processed food.  

And that's the final, the eventual point of those  apps. It's not basically keeping people captive  

to scanning products, it's basically changing  the formulas of the food offer, so that everyone  

benefits and that there's systemic change in what  we buy in the supermarket, that the default choice  

in the supermarket become the right choices. We  believe that if we mobilise, if we team up together,  

we can force the industry to actually listen to  the public, listen to the government, and it changes  

the balance of power between the food industry and  and the general public. 

- Pierre Slamich. Jean-Claude Moubarac 

has been advising the Canadian government on its  food policies. Has he suggested a label that says ultra-processed?  

- We haven't suggested that. - Why not?  - I think it will be hard, because industry changes  

its practice very quickly, so a label that  we be implemented today might not cover some  

of the ingredients that industry will come up  in a year or two. - So you think food companies  

would just reformulate a product so that it was  just as ultra-processed, but um using perhaps new  

ingredients that weren't captured in your original system? - Exactly. To me, it will be more meaningful  

to raise awareness, and then people can make their  decision to prefer food that are less processed.  

That means cooking, and it's a huge shift  in people's life, but I think it needs to start  

by the understanding how food is made today, and  to me a label will not be enough to cover that.  

- Jean-Claude Moubarac. It's not always easy to know  what is and isn't ultra-processed, and whether in  

fact all ultra-processed food is bad for you. But  our listener Jen knows one thing for sure: that  

cutting down on convenience foods and taking the  time to cook whole foods has been a net positive  

for her family. - I'm not sure if this is something  I'm going to keep doing forever, but I think what  

I feed myself and what I feed my family, I don't  see that changing, because part of it is just  

this has become normalised in our family, that  we cook and we make things from scratch, and we  

like food that tastes yummy. - Thanks to Jen for  getting us thinking about ultra-processed food,  

and thanks to everyone in today's programme. If  there's something you'd like us to look into,  

do what Jen did: email [email protected] - We read every message we get. From me and the  

rest of the team, Beatrice Pickup and Hannah Bewley,  thanks for listening, and join us again next week.