Are ultra-processed foods impossible to avoid? - The Global Story podcast, BBC World Service

Summary

In this episode of The Global Story, Lucy Hockings discusses the pervasiveness and potential health risks of ultra-processed foods (UPFs), which are linked to increased ill health, including heart attacks, strokes, obesity, and type 2 diabetes. BBC health correspondent Philippa Roxby and Ruth Alexander, a presenter of The Food Chain, explore the challenges of identifying and avoiding UPFs in our daily diets. They touch on the role of technology in helping consumers make informed choices and the importance of considering both the processing and ingredients when evaluating the nutritional value of food.

Takeaways

• 🍔 Ultra-processed foods are prevalent in many diets, often making up the majority of calories consumed.
• 🚨 These foods are linked to various health issues, including heart attacks, strokes, obesity, type 2 diabetes, and anxiety.
• 🔍 The definition of ultra-processed foods includes industrially made products designed to be highly palatable, often with added flavors and additives.
• 👶 Children's diets are of particular concern, as many are heavily composed of ultra-processed foods, which could impact their long-term health.
• 🧐 Scientists are still researching the exact reasons why ultra-processed foods may be harmful, whether it's the processing itself or the added ingredients like sugars and fats.
• 🛒 It can be challenging to avoid ultra-processed foods due to their affordability, convenience, and widespread availability.
• 🌐 The sales of ultra-processed foods are increasing globally, especially in middle-income countries.
• 📱 Technology, such as smartphone apps, can help consumers identify ultra-processed foods and make more informed choices.
• 🥦 Small steps, like cooking one meal a week from scratch, can be a practical approach to reducing ultra-processed food intake.
• 🌎 Different countries are implementing strategies to combat the consumption of ultra-processed foods, like Chile's black label warning system for high sugar or fat content.

Q & A

What are ultra-processed foods?

Ultra-processed foods are industrially made and designed to be delicious, often containing additives to enhance taste and appeal, particularly to children. They are typically packaged and prominently displayed.

Why are ultra-processed foods considered harmful?

Ultra-processed foods are blamed for an increase in ill health, including heart attacks, strokes, obesity, type 2 diabetes, and even anxiety, due to their high content of saturated fats, salt, sugar, and other additives.

What role do ultra-processed foods play in the diets of children in the Western world?

In the Western world, the majority of children's diets are made up of ultra-processed foods, which is a concern because of the potential long-term health effects.

How can one identify ultra-processed foods when shopping?

Ultra-processed foods can often be identified by long lists of unpronounceable ingredients, added sugars and sweeteners, and packaging that does not resemble the original food, such as sauces in jars or tins.

What is the Nova classification system mentioned in the script?

The Nova classification system is a way of categorizing foods based on how processed they are, with ultra-processed foods being those that have undergone extensive industrial processing.

Are all ultra-processed foods unhealthy?

Not all ultra-processed foods are necessarily unhealthy. Some may contain necessary nutrients and be part of a balanced diet, but the overall trend shows that excessive consumption of ultra-processed foods is linked to health issues.

What challenges do busy individuals face when trying to avoid ultra-processed foods?

Busy individuals often find it difficult to avoid ultra-processed foods due to time constraints, the convenience and lower cost of these products, and the lack of readily available alternatives.

How are some countries addressing the issue of ultra-processed foods?

Some countries, like Chile, have introduced labeling systems to indicate high sugar or fat content on packaging, helping consumers make informed choices about the foods they purchase.

What practical steps can individuals take to reduce their consumption of ultra-processed foods?

Individuals can start by making small, realistic changes, such as cooking one meal a week from scratch, choosing water over sugary drinks, and opting for fresh or frozen vegetables instead of processed ones.

What role do apps play in helping consumers identify ultra-processed foods?

Apps can assist consumers by scanning barcodes and providing information on whether a product is ultra-processed and its nutritional value, often using a traffic light system for easy understanding.

Outlines

00:00

🍔 Understanding Ultra-Processed Foods

Lucy Hockings introduces the topic of ultra-processed foods (UPFs) and their impact on health. She discusses with Philippa Roxby and Ruth Alexander the ubiquity of UPFs in daily diets, which are linked to various health issues like heart attacks, strokes, obesity, type 2 diabetes, and anxiety. The conversation explores what constitutes UPFs, their prevalence, and the difficulty in avoiding them due to their extensive marketing and appeal, especially to children. The guests share personal anecdotes of finding UPFs in their homes, challenging the assumption that only obviously processed items are UPFs.

05:02

🔍 Navigating the UPF Landscape

The discussion continues with the exploration of the nutritional value of UPFs. Philippa and Ruth consider whether some UPFs might be harmless or even beneficial despite being processed. They touch on the complexity of distinguishing between different levels of food processing and the potential health implications. The conversation also addresses the role of food marketing and how it influences consumer choices, especially concerning children's diets. The segment ends with advice on identifying UPFs by scrutinizing ingredient lists for additives and preservatives.

10:03

🌐 Global Impact and Challenges of UPFs

Philippa and Ruth delve into the global prevalence of UPFs, noting their increasing sales, particularly in middle-income countries. They discuss the challenges of avoiding UPFs, especially for those with dietary restrictions or health conditions, where UPFs might be necessary due to their specific formulations. The conversation also highlights the role of technology in helping consumers identify UPFs through smartphone apps, which use a traffic light system to indicate the level of processing. The segment concludes with a mention of Chile's initiative to tackle obesity by introducing black labels on high-sugar or high-fat products.

15:05

🍽️ Strategies for Reducing UPF Intake

The final part of the discussion focuses on practical strategies for reducing UPF consumption. Philippa and Ruth suggest starting with small, achievable steps, such as cooking one meal a week from scratch or choosing water over sugary drinks. They acknowledge the difficulty of completely avoiding UPFs, especially for busy individuals or those on a tight budget. The conversation also touches on the importance of considering the long-term health implications of a diet high in UPFs and the need for further research to understand the specific factors contributing to their potential harm. The segment ends with the hosts reflecting on their own challenges with resisting UPFs.

Keywords

💡Ultra-processed foods

Ultra-processed foods are industrially made products that are designed to be highly palatable, often with additives that enhance taste and appeal, particularly to children. They are a central theme in the video as they are linked to various health concerns. Examples from the script include ready meals, chocolate, biscuits, and fizzy drinks. The discussion revolves around their prevalence and the difficulty in avoiding them due to their convenience and marketing strategies.

💡Health effects

The term 'health effects' in the script refers to the negative impacts on health associated with the consumption of ultra-processed foods. These effects include an increase in heart attacks, strokes, obesity, type 2 diabetes, and even anxiety. The video discusses the growing body of evidence that points to these foods as a contributing factor to diet-related illnesses, emphasizing the need for further research to understand the specific causes.

💡Additives

Additives are substances added to foods to improve their taste, appearance, or shelf life. In the context of the video, additives are mentioned as components of ultra-processed foods that make them appealing but potentially harmful. The script highlights how companies 'hacked' human cravings and incorporated these tastes into their products, suggesting a manipulation of natural food preferences.

💡Nutritional value

Nutritional value refers to the nutrients provided by food that are essential for maintaining health. The video script discusses the varying nutritional values of ultra-processed foods, noting that while some may contain added vitamins and fibers, others are high in saturated fats, salt, and sugar. The script uses the example of wholemeal bread to illustrate the complexity of determining nutritional value, as it can be both ultra-processed and nutritionally beneficial.

💡Ingredients list

The ingredients list on food packaging is a detailed account of all components in a product. In the video, the ingredients list is highlighted as a tool for identifying ultra-processed foods, as these often contain long, unpronounceable names of additives, emulsifiers, and other artificial components. The script advises consumers to look for simplicity in ingredients as a sign of less processing.

💡Nova classification

The Nova classification is a system developed by Brazilian scientists to categorize foods based on their degree of processing. The video script mentions this system as a framework for understanding the spectrum of food processing, from unprocessed to ultra-processed. The classification is used to discuss the ubiquity of ultra-processed foods and the challenges in avoiding them.

💡Dietary needs

Dietary needs refer to the specific nutritional requirements of individuals, which may be influenced by health conditions or personal choices. The video script touches on how people with dietary restrictions, such as coeliac disease or veganism, often rely on ultra-processed foods that are tailored to their needs. This highlights the complexity of food choices and the balance between health, convenience, and dietary requirements.

💡Cost and convenience

Cost and convenience are factors that influence food choices, especially for busy individuals or families on a budget. The script discusses how ultra-processed foods are often cheaper and more convenient, making them an attractive option despite potential health concerns. The video acknowledges the challenge of opting for healthier, less processed foods when time and financial constraints are present.

💡Food technology

Food technology encompasses the methods and innovations used in the processing and preservation of food. In the context of the video, technology is both a benefit and a concern. While it extends shelf life and makes food more accessible, it also contributes to the production of ultra-processed foods with questionable health impacts. The script reflects on the role of technology in the modern food landscape and its implications for health.

💡Public health policies

Public health policies are government initiatives aimed at improving the health of the population. The video script references Chile's policy of using black labels on packaging to indicate high sugar or fat content as an example of how public health policies can influence consumer behavior and potentially reduce the consumption of ultra-processed foods. This keyword highlights the role of government in addressing dietary health issues.

💡Food industry

The food industry comprises the businesses involved in food production, processing, and distribution. The video script discusses how the industry plays a significant role in the prevalence of ultra-processed foods, driven by marketing strategies targeting children and the creation of products designed for taste and longevity. The industry's practices are scrutinized for their impact on public health and the challenge they pose to healthier food choices.

Highlights

Ultra-processed foods are blamed for an increase in ill health, including heart attacks, strokes, obesity, type 2 diabetes, and anxiety.

The majority of calories consumed in many countries come from ultra-processed foods.

Ultra-processed foods are industrially made and designed to be delicious, often with added taste cravings.

Many common products like wholemeal bread, fish fingers, and mayonnaise are ultra-processed.

Ultra-processed foods can be high in saturated fats, salt, sugar, and may contain emulsifiers, additives, and preservatives.

Some ultra-processed foods, like whole grain cereals, can be nutritious despite being processed.

The health impact of ultra-processed foods is not fully understood, with ongoing research to determine if it's the processing or the ingredients causing harm.

Ultra-processed foods are often marketed towards children, raising concerns about long-term health effects.

The Nova classification system categorizes foods based on their level of processing, with ultra-processed foods at the highest level.

Sales of ultra-processed foods are increasing globally, particularly in middle-income countries.

Some health conditions require the consumption of ultra-processed foods, such as gluten-free products for coeliacs.

The challenge of avoiding ultra-processed foods is compounded by time constraints and financial considerations for many families.

There are apps available that can help identify ultra-processed foods and their nutritional values by scanning barcodes.

Chile has implemented black labels on packaging to indicate high sugar or fat content, which has been effective in helping consumers make healthier choices.

Small steps, like cooking one meal a week from scratch, can help reduce the intake of ultra-processed foods.

Freezing is a method to extend the life of fresh foods and can be a part of a strategy to reduce reliance on ultra-processed foods.

The conversation highlights the complexity of defining ultra-processed foods and the need for a balanced approach to diet and health.

Transcripts

Hello, I'm Lucy Hockings. From the BBC  World Service, this is The Global Story.

Ready meals, chocolate, biscuits, sausages,  fizzy drinks. We know that processed food  

is bad for us. But recent research shows  that in many countries around the world,  

the majority of calories most of us consume are  from products known as ultra-processed foods.  

These foods are being blamed for an increase in  ill health, including heart attacks, strokes,  

obesity, type 2 diabetes and even anxiety.  So, how harmful are ultra-processed foods  

for our health? And given how common they  are, is it even possible to avoid them? 

With me today is BBC health correspondent  Philippa Roxby and Ruth Alexander,  

a presenter of the BBC programme, The Food  Chain. Good to have you both with us. Hi. Thanks. 

Hi, Lucy. Hello. 

Ruth, I think we need to start with the basics  here. What exactly are ultra-processed foods? 

It's industrially made food that's designed to be  delicious. Often the companies making them have  

really kind of hacked what it is that we crave in  terms of taste, and they've put those tastes in as  

additives. And often food that's marketed at you,  I mean, you don't often see adverts for potatoes  

or eggs. They're not ultra-processed,  of course, but food that's packaged,  

displayed prominently, particularly to appeal to  children, say, marketed and advertised at you. 

Ruth, I'm now just mentally running through a  checklist of everything that's in my cupboards,  

in my fridge and freezer, and I'm a little bit  worried about what you're about to tell us. So  

I know you've also been going through  your cupboards. What have you found? 

I mostly cook from scratch, so I didn't think I  would find much, but I found plenty. Wholemeal  

bread, you know, the sliced package variety  that you find in supermarkets. Nutritionally  

good for you, but ultra-processed. Fish fingers,  which I think of as a sort of quick but healthy,  

you know, dinner-time thing. And I thought,  well, that can't be ultra-processed. It's  

just fish and breadcrumbs, isn't it? It  was ultra-processed. Mayonnaise. I'd had  

a little bit with my lunch when I was  going around my kitchen checking things. 

Ultra-processed. Mustard. Ultra-processed.  But the one that probably surprised me most  

of all was stock cubes. I looked at them and  they are ultra-processed. So that means all  

those homecooked stews I did, all that cooking  from scratch I did actually was kind of undone. 

If we start at the beginning of  the day then, what about Philippa,  

cereal? So many kids start the day with a bowl  of cereal with some whole milk, is that ok? 

It can be depending on the type of cereal  you choose, there's a lot of cereals that are  

sweetened so lots of sugar is added to them and  actually you've got some here they look a little  

bit chocolatey there's definitely added sugar in  there but then there's a lot of cereals that have,  

are whole grain and have fibre in them and are  good for you so this is the slight issue with  

the definition of ultra-processed foods is that  you tend to think that everything in your cupboard  

cannot be eaten but actually there are some that  do contain the good stuff you need, and it's just  

sorting the good ones out from the bad ones. I mean, I think one of the things with cereal  

is that they're marketed as being healthy  for you and a really good start to the day,  

particularly for kids. And this is where  scientists are really concerned, aren't  

they? Because they say actually the driving force  behind multiple diet-related illnesses can be  

in something as simple as your breakfast cereal. Yeah, that's right. I mean, there's evidence that  

the majority of children's diets, particularly in  the Western world, are made up of ultra-processed  

foods so, everything from the bread they eat  to the cereals to maybe the drinks they have  

at breakfast. And that's a real worry because  these kids are growing up and what will this do to  

their health later on. I mean there's lots of  research, growing evidence that ultra-processed  

foods aren't particularly good for us, but  scientists aren't sure what it is about those  

foods that's causing the problem. Is it the  way they're made, the way they're processed,  

or is it the fact that they just contain lots  of sugar and lots of fat, as we can see here? 

I mean, we've got a table in front of us, full of  ultra-processed foods, and just looking at them,  

some, you could say, they're high in saturated  fats, salt, sugar, but there's some pretty  

innocent-looking bread there as well. I guess these are processed to last  

longer. They're probably, they look like sort  of long-life rolls so you want them to stay  

ok in your cupboards so you can eat them for say  several days and that's why in the food industry  

they do process things to preserve them and keep  them for longer, so some reasons why processing  

is a good thing there are other reasons why  processing might not be such a good thing. 

Yeah, and I see, Ruth, that scientists have  done a big review, the largest review of  

some of the evidence to date, and they say  there are 32 harmful health effects from  

some of these foods that are out there. But  looking at the table of food in front of us,  

or even thinking about what's in our cupboards,  is there any nutritional value, or is there  

some hope there with some of these foods, Ruth? Well, that's the thing and as Philippa was saying,  

it's not known why ultra-processed food might be  causing harm. And it could be that there are some  

foods that are ultra-processed that are absolutely  fine for you. Like my wholemeal sliced bread,  

you know, has got sort of lots of goodness  in it. It's got fibre, it's got added  

vitamins. It's not necessarily that everything  ultra-processed will definitely be bad for you. 

And also, I mean, there's another category just  down from ultra-processed, which is processed  

food, and that's not being criticised. But when I  was looking in my cupboards, the dark chocolate,  

I would like to say as an occasional treat,  actually it's probably quite a frequent treat,  

if I'm honest. But that wasn't ultra... You and me both, Ruth, I have to say. 

Keeps you going, doesn't it? It gets you through.  But that was processed, not ultra-processed. Is  

it good for me in the quantities I eat it? I'm  not so sure. Also, potato crisps another of my  

weaknesses is another good one to look at  because if they've got added flavour, they  

tend to be ultra-processed, but the plain salted  varieties are not considered ultra-processed. Are  

they good for me? Well, they're full of saturated  fat and have high levels of salt. Probably not,  

actually. So it's not clear-cut, and it's as  Philippa said, it's not clear-cut what it is about  

the ultra-processing of food that maybe harmful. Ruth you and I share these guilty pleasures,  

I also love crisps as well as dark chocolate. So  Philippa, I'm standing in the supermarket aisle,  

I'm looking at the back of a product,  what exactly should I look for? 

In the ingredients list you're looking for  lots of things with very long unpronounceable  

names that you would not find anywhere in your  kitchen as ingredients and those are probably,  

they could be emulsifiers and additives and  flavourings and colourings and they quite often  

have very long complicated names and that's a  good indication that it's an ultra-processed  

food. What else? It might have added sugars and  sweeteners or fake sugars and it may say that  

it's sort of low in sugar or low in fat and make  that sort of claim on the packet and quite often  

it will come in a package and not look like the  original food, not look like a whole tomato or  

a whole vegetable. It will be a sauce that comes  in a jar or comes in a tin or comes in a package. 

Surely the picture is different depending on which  country we're talking about. And I know in 2010 a  

group of Brazilian scientists said we should be  focusing less on the nutritional content of food  

and more on the form of processing it undergoes.  And they created this Nova classification,  

which categorises foods based on how processed  they are. And Ruth, I know you've spoken to one  

of the scientists who came up with that system,  Professor Jean-Claude Moubarac at the University  

of Montreal. Did they give you an idea of just  how common UPFs are and how difficult and tricky  

it is to avoid them? They did. I actually asked  

for some examples of ultra-processed food and  after about a minute of different foods being  

listed I realised it would have been much  simpler to ask what isn't ultra-processed  

actually. So think of packaged snacks, sweets,  biscuits, pastries, cakes, pizzas, cereals,  

I mean the list just goes on and on and on and  the sales of this type of food, ultra-processed  

food are actually thought to be increasing  around the world, particularly in middle income  

countries where the sales are rising and then in  richer countries they're already pretty high. I  

mean you know yourself if you go to the shops,  actually, you've got the fruit and veg aisle and  

then beyond that there are just many many shelves  with lots of different packaged goods and if you  

look at the ingredients on the back, it's often  a long, long list of ingredients. So there is  

a fair amount of ultra-processed food out there. Philippa, these Brazilian scientists only came up  

with the term, UPF, back in 2010. That wasn't that  long ago. So how much more is there to find out  

about the impact that UPFs have on our health? Well, a lot more. It's really a fairly recent  

term. And there's been an awful lot of research in  the last few years into ultra-processed foods and  

how they affect our health and why that might  be. And actually, scientists really haven't  

come up with an answer to that yet. And  so we really don't know whether it's the  

processing and these added ingredients that  are added into the crisps and the bread and  

the cereals here. Is that the problem? Or is  it just that we're going back to too much fat,  

too much sugar, too many calories in our diet. Philippa how much harder is it if you've got a  

health or dietary issue that means that you have  to have these foods? I know I have a son who has  

coeliac and a lot of what I go to buy him in the  supermarket seems to have a lot of UPFs in it,  

and it's because it doesn't necessarily  have the ingredients in it to make the  

food stick together or to last a long time or  it has a lot of sugar in it to make it taste  

good. But there aren't many other options. Yeah, that's true. I mean, a lot of people  

do rely on processed or ultra-processed foods  for their dietary needs. Coeliacs, for example,  

have to avoid foods that have gluten in them. So if you go to that particular aisle in the  

supermarket, you're going to find things that  are processed because they need to avoid that  

ingredient and replace it with something else.  And then there's things like baby formula milk.  

That would count as ultra-processed under this  classification system. And yet it's something  

that's used worldwide by mums trying to feed  their babies. And it comes from cow's milk. 

But it has other things added to make it  healthy for babies. There's also vegan foods,  

plant-based foods. They would also count  as ultra-processed. And yet they're seen  

as very healthy alternatives to meat. I spoke to Jean-Claude Moubarac about  

the issue of, for example, infant formula and  gluten-free foods and said, well, you know,  

they're ultra-processed under this Nova  classification system, but people rely on  

those for health reasons. And he agreed and said,  actually, he said, "I view infant formula, for  

example, as medicine, not as food, but medicine". I'm a working mum, and I'm starting to feel a  

little bit guilty at the moment about UPFs and  what I'm feeding my family. It's pretty tricky  

because one of the messages is that we should  be cooking from scratch and cooking at home  

in our own kitchens with food that we know  where it's come from, but this is all really  

time-consuming at the end of a long day. Yeah, I mean, it's very difficult,  

as we discussed, to avoid every single  ultra-processed food. It's extremely difficult,  

and if you're busy, working parents for example  with young children you don't always feel you  

have the time to cook from scratch that means  starting off with the vegetables and making the  

sauce from scratch perhaps and all the different  elements of a meal and that can be time-consuming.  

And for some people it makes them a little bit  nervous and a bit anxious. And it's much easier,  

let's face it, to reach for something  that's ready made, ready to go in the oven,  

ready to go in the microwave. It's quite often  cheaper, too. And in these constrained times when  

we're all thinking about how much money we've  got in our pockets, that is an easier option. 

Cost must be a big factor for some people  when they're considering what to eat. 

I think it is. And also people are time poor as  well, aren't they? Even just stopping to examine  

the ingredients on the back of packets in the  shop, you know, that's time that you probably  

don't have. When I discovered the stock I was  using was ultra-processed I thought, 'right,  

I'll start making my own stock'. Have I  done that? No, I haven't. I haven't got  

the time. I think, like, as Philippa said... You haven't got the time to go to the butcher  

and get the chicken carcass and bring it home and  get the vegetables and put it in the pot. I mean,  

yes, you're right. Just simple stock is  time-consuming. Yeah, that's it. And, you know,  

when you can go and buy chicken nuggets in the  store for very little money, a big bag, and put  

it in the freezer, and it's there when you need  it, you know, that's what everyone is up against. 

So I was in the supermarket recently, and it's  the first time I've noticed this, that people  

have been standing in aisles with their phones  out and scanning food. What kind of tech is out  

there to help us identify what's in the food  that we're buying and what UPFs are there? 

Yes, you can find these apps which will tell  you 'this is ultra-processed' and also like how  

nutritionally, what the nutritional value  of the food is. I used one in my kitchen. 

I must say they're sort of like  once you get going on it, you know,  

I had to make a conscious decision to, 'okay,  close the cupboards, put my phone down,  

just stop this'. What you do is you scan the  barcodes and it has a traffic light system  

where you're looking at, you know, green for  nutritionally good, green for not ultra-processed,  

red if it's ultra-processed. And it just gets you  thinking. But as I say, there's something like  

really satisfying about scanning a barcode and  then finding out, is this good or is this bad? 

I was on a family holiday recently and we  got the kids to do all the scanning of the  

food which they thought was great  fun. Any excuse to use the phone,  

I don't think they're mind. As long as they've got  the phone in their hands, they're happy. But it  

is quite a lot of effort to scan a product like  this. And Chile has an interesting example what  

their government is doing about UPFs. Ruth, tell  us what they did to tackle high obesity rates. 

Yes, A few years ago, they brought in a system  where they have black labels on packaging,  

which if it's high in sugar or in fat,  for example. We did speak to people in  

Chile about how, whether they found those  labels useful, and they said that they did,  

and they do try to make, to avoid those black  labelled products. And we asked them, you know,  

would you find it useful to have a label that said  ultra-processed? And they said, yes, they would. 

If we don't Phillipa get on top of UPFs,  what's going to happen in the long-term? 

This type of food is so freely available and it's  cheap and it's very moreish and of course lots of  

people say that it slips down very easily and it  means that you want more very soon afterwards so  

potentially you eat more of that type of stuff  because it slips down our throats easily. And  

if children grow up used to eating that way, that  will continue into adulthood. So it's certainly a  

worry, but I think scientists have still got  a job to do to find out more evidence about  

whether it's the processing that's to blame or  whether it's the ingredients. And then also we,  

I suppose we all need to think about, every  country around the world needs to think about  

how we can help people choose more of the  right kinds of foods and less of the wrong  

kinds of foods. But it's a big challenge. So any other hot tips, Ruth, about how we  

can realistically cut down on our UPFs? Probably the thing to do is to start  

with a small realistic step as well. If  you're listening to this and thinking,  

you know what, I would like to reduce the amount  of ultra-processed food I'm eating. Perhaps it's  

just making one meal in the week from scratch.  If you're vegan and you're relying on, you know,  

plant-based meat substitutes, which are often  ultra-processed, you know, perhaps think about  

substituting that with lentils and beans  which can bulk out the dish. I mean, like,  

if you just think about what you're drinking with  a meal, go for water rather than a carbonated,  

sugary drink, which would be ultra-processed.  That might not be so popular with your children,  

though, but I'm just saying you could try to do  that. Interestingly, a colleague tried to give  

up ultra-processed food for a month in January,  and she failed on day one. She went to the pub  

wanting a non-alcoholic drink, and all the drinks  there were ultra-processed. But I did say to her,  

you could have chosen water. Tap water? 

Even sparkling water, but yeah, she just  moved on. She didn't comment on that one. 

But, you know, like a quick meal that I enjoy  is an omelette sandwich. Problem, I mean,  

the omelette is not ultra-processed, but I suppose  the problem is the bread I'm using, it probably  

is ultra-processed. And if you want to find  non-ultra-processed bread, just processed bread,  

then you're going to have to go to a bakery and  that probably will cost more money and it will go  

stale quicker but you can put it in your freezer  and make it last longer if you have a freezer. 

That's true. People tend to think that if you  freeze something, it's a bad thing. And freezing  

is just another process but actually freezing is  a great way of making something last for longer  

as Ruth was saying, sliced bread where lots  of people in lots of countries are very fond  

of sliced bread and the problem with this  classification is you tend to think you can  

only buy very nice, very expensive, rustic,  whole grain bread. And that's the only thing. 

Farmer's market bread or bakery bread? Yeah, and we know how that expensive that is.  

So very difficult for families to make that  choice. And sometimes just buying a sliced  

brown bread from the supermarket is fine. And then you can freeze it and store it. 

And also, I mean, something that I often make  when I've got vegetables that are about to  

go off. I make a soup, just get them all  in there and make a soup. Now, I do put,  

as we know, an ultra-processed stock cube in  there, but at least it's a pan full of fresh,  

or just about fresh vegetables otherwise. So, you know. There can be some compromise  

in there. Yeah,  

I think so. Well, that's how I'm living anyway. Ruth, it would be lovely if you were here with us,  

but maybe it's best that you're not, because given  our weakness for crisps. I've got some in the  

table in front of me. It's going to take every bit  of my willpower not to polish them off. But it's  

been lovely to have you with us. Thanks so much. Thank you very much. And yeah, I'm pleased to have  

avoided that bag of crisps. Can we resist, Philippa? 

No. Definitely not. Thanks so much, Philippa. 

Thank you. And thank you for watching.  

If you want more episodes of The Global Story,  you can find us wherever you get your podcasts. 

Don't forget to subscribe, so you never miss an  episode. We'd also love to hear what you think  

of today's episode, so do leave us your  comments in the sections below. Goodbye.