Beyond the Box Episode 10: Are we there yet? The road to net zero

Summary

本期播客《超越盒子》讨论了海运业对实现零碳排放目标的挑战和未来前景。海运业占全球温室气体排放的3%，国际海事组织（IMO）设定了到2050年左右达到净零排放的新目标。嘉宾们强调，要实现这一目标，需要整个生态系统的合作，包括减少船队能源需求、加速绿色燃料生产、寻找过渡性商业模式，以及制定强有力的国际法规。他们还讨论了提高船舶能效、绿色燃料供应、碳税和绿色走廊等议题，强调了采取行动的紧迫性，以及这些措施对应对气候变化的重要性和潜在商业机会。

Takeaways

• 🌏 航运业对全球温室气体排放的贡献约为3%，国际海事组织（IMO）设定了到2050年左右实现净零排放的新目标。
• 🔍 要实现零排放目标，需要整个生态系统的合作，解决行业系统性低效问题，重点关注船队能源需求，并通过现有技术有效降低至少15%。
• 🚀 加快绿色燃料的生产和规模化是实现零排放的关键之一，同时需要找到过渡性的商业模式来解决全球航运业面临的支付意愿问题。
• 💡 绿色燃料的供应满足需求是一个主要挑战，市场上对于低排放燃料的供应并不充足，需要提高透明度并加速供应链各环节的合作。
• 🛳️ 船舶能效的提升是减少排放的有效途径，通过技术升级和改造，可以实现显著的能效提升，如某项目提高了20%的能效。
• 📉 能效提升不仅有助于环保，也具有财务效益，因为它减少了燃料的使用，从而降低了成本。
• 🛃 国际监管对于推动航运业减排至关重要，需要确保正确的速度和加速度来实现减排目标。
• 💼 经济学家认为，通过征收碳税来平衡重油和绿色燃料之间的竞争力，并利用税收收入支持行业公正和可持续的转型。
• 📊 绿色走廊的概念被提出，通过在特定航线上建立封闭环境，集中展示如何实现航运业的绿色转型。
• 🌱 绿色走廊倡议被视为积极措施，因为它们允许与所有利益相关者进行不同的对话，探讨如何公平分配成本并认识到客户的价值。
• 🔄 需要重新思考经济模型，将环境作为资源纳入考虑，并在成本中计入碳排放的成本，以促进行为的改变。

Q & A

为什么需要实现航运业的零碳排放？

航运业占全球温室气体排放的3%，为了对抗气候变化，国际海事组织(IMO)设定了到2050年左右实现净零排放的目标。实现零排放有助于减少对环境的影响，为后代创造一个更加宜居的地球。

目前航运业在实现零排放目标上面临哪些挑战？

航运业实现零排放面临的挑战包括需要巨大的行业协作，解决系统性效率问题，加速绿色燃料的生产，寻找过渡性的商业模式，以及需要国际法规的支持来确保正确的速度和加速。

什么是绿色燃料，它们在减少航运业碳排放中扮演什么角色？

绿色燃料指的是那些排放较低的燃料，比如氢燃料电池(HBO)。它们对减少航运业的碳排放至关重要，因为它们可以作为过渡性或长期解决方案，帮助航运业减少对化石燃料的依赖。

为什么说能源效率的提升是实现零排放的关键？

提升能源效率可以直接减少船队的能源需求，通过现有技术至少可以减少15%的能源消耗。这不仅有助于减少碳排放，同时从财务角度来看，也能减少燃料成本。

目前航运业在能源效率方面已经取得了哪些进展？

一些公司如Ell已经通过技术升级和改造，比如改进螺旋桨和船只的改造，显著提高了能源效率。例如，有的项目通过这些措施将能源效率提高了20%。

什么是绿色走廊(Green Corridors)，它如何帮助实现航运业的可持续发展？

绿色走廊是一种概念，它指的是在特定的航线上实施一系列的措施，包括使用绿色燃料、改善港口基础设施、获得政府许可和融资结构等，以创建一个小型的、可持续的航运环境模型。这有助于展示如何在小规模上实现全球航运业的转型，并从中学习经验。

为什么需要国际法规来支持航运业的零排放转型？

国际法规可以确保所有国家和公司都遵循相同的标准和速度进行转型，避免出现不公平的竞争环境。此外，法规还可以推动行业采用新技术和燃料，以及通过碳税等措施来平衡化石燃料和绿色燃料之间的竞争力。

碳税在推动航运业零排放转型中扮演什么角色？

碳税可以作为一种经济激励措施，通过提高使用化石燃料的成本，促使行业转向更清洁的能源解决方案。此外，碳税的收入可以重新投入到行业中，支持绿色转型和市场的发展。

为什么说航运业的效率提升是实现零排放的短期解决方案？

在短期内，通过提升能源效率可以直接减少燃料消耗和碳排放，同时降低运营成本。这为航运公司提供了一个立即可行的解决方案，而不必等待新的零排放燃料技术成熟。

为什么说实现零排放不仅是一个环境问题，也是一个商业机会？

实现零排放需要开发和采用新的技术和燃料，这为航运业带来了新的商业机会。能够解决这些难题并规模化新技术的公司将能够获得市场优势，并可能引领行业转型。

为什么说航运业需要重新考虑其经济模型，以纳入环境成本？

传统上，环境资源被视为外部性，没有被纳入经济模型中。为了推动真正的变革，需要重新思考这一模型，将环境成本纳入产品和服务的定价中，以反映其真实的社会和环境影响。

为什么说提升对范围3排放的认识和报告对于航运业至关重要？

范围3排放涵盖了公司价值链中间接产生的所有排放，包括上游和下游活动。提升对范围3排放的认识和报告有助于公司更全面地了解其环境影响，并采取措施减少整个供应链的碳足迹。

Outlines

00:00

🌍 航运对社会的影响

视频开头介绍了航运对社会的巨大影响，并强调需要减少航运量并采用不同的方法。视频的标题是“超越框框——从内部看综合物流”，接着主持人艾伦·霍夫曼在哥本哈根的世界海事论坛上介绍了海事航运实现零碳排放之路。国际海事组织（IMO）去年修改了其温室气体战略，目标是到2050年实现净零排放。主持人邀请了几位专家讨论当前的进展、挑战和未来的方向。

05:02

🚢 实现零排放的路径

参与讨论的专家佩尔·德尔加德指出，实现零排放需要整个生态系统的协作，重点在于减少船队的能源需求，加快绿色燃料的生产，并制定过渡性商业模式。他还强调需要国际法规来确保进展和加速。盖瑞斯·普赖斯谈到低排放燃料的重要性，强调透明度和供应链各方的合作，以加快绿色燃料的应用。

10:04

⚡ 提高船只能源效率

欧因·詹森介绍了他们在提高船只能源效率方面所做的努力，包括技术升级和改造，取得了显著成果，例如能效提高了20%。他还强调了能源效率对短期内减少排放的重要性，同时为未来的绿色燃料过渡做好准备。佩尔·德尔加德补充说，全球船队中有很多技术潜力未被利用，需要加快技术的采用。

15:04

🌿 绿色走廊与电动渡轮的成功案例

讨论继续围绕绿色走廊的概念展开，佩尔·德尔加德解释了如何通过创建微型绿色环境来逐步实现全球航运的绿色转型。欧因·詹森分享了挪威电动渡轮的成功案例，政府通过补贴推动市场发展，现在几乎所有新渡轮都是电动的。盖瑞斯·普赖斯指出，航运行业的高效性在经济上被低估了，需要重新评估其对环境的影响。

20:05

🔄 重新思考全球经济模式

讨论进一步深入到重新思考全球经济模式的必要性，强调需要将环境成本纳入经济模型。盖瑞斯·普赖斯提到，传统经济模式忽视了环境资源的价值，需要通过定价碳排放等方式逐步将自然资源纳入经济考量。佩尔·德尔加德补充说，开始行动并关注范围三排放（即供应链排放）是关键，尽管存在数据质量和透明度的挑战。

25:05

📈 从风险到机会的转变

最后，每位专家总结了实现零排放的重要性，强调了气候变化对全球社区的巨大影响，以及企业在应对气候风险方面的责任。同时，他们也看到了解决这些难题所带来的商业机会。如果能够成功推广并规模化新技术，将为企业带来巨大的机遇。节目最后鼓励听众订阅节目，了解更多全球贸易和物流的讨论与见解。

Keywords

💡零碳排放

零碳排放是指在某一系统或行业中完全消除二氧化碳的排放。视频中讨论了海运行业在2050年左右实现零碳排放的目标，并介绍了为达成这一目标所需的各种措施和挑战。

💡国际海事组织 (IMO)

国际海事组织是联合国的一个专门机构，负责监管国际航运业。视频中提到，IMO在2023年修订了其温室气体战略，并为海运行业设定了2050年前后实现净零排放的目标。

💡绿色燃料

绿色燃料是指对环境影响较小、二氧化碳排放量较低的替代能源，如甲醇、氨等。视频讨论了绿色燃料在减少海运行业碳排放中的关键作用，以及这些燃料在供应和使用上的挑战。

💡能源效率

能源效率指的是通过优化能源使用来减少能源消耗的能力。视频中介绍了通过提高船只的能源效率，可以显著减少燃料消耗和碳排放，从而有助于实现零碳排放目标。

💡碳税

碳税是一种对碳排放征收的税收，旨在通过增加化石燃料的成本来减少碳排放。视频中讨论了通过实施碳税来缩小化石燃料与绿色燃料之间的成本差距，从而促进绿色燃料的使用。

💡绿色走廊

绿色走廊是指在特定航线上建立的低碳或零碳排放航运模式。视频中提到，通过在特定航线上实施绿色走廊，可以为全球航运业的绿色转型提供示范和经验。

💡合作

合作指各方共同努力以实现共同目标。视频中多次强调，实现海运行业的零碳排放目标需要行业内外的广泛合作，包括政府、企业、研究机构等。

💡透明度

透明度指信息公开和透明的程度。视频中提到，提高供应链各环节的透明度，有助于解决绿色燃料供应不足的问题，并促进全行业的低碳转型。

💡监管

监管指通过政策和法律来规范行业行为。视频中讨论了国际和地区性监管在推动海运行业绿色转型中的重要作用，并呼吁制定和实施更严格的环保法规。

💡环境影响

环境影响指人类活动对自然环境造成的各种影响。视频中探讨了海运行业的碳排放对全球气候变化的影响，并强调了减少碳排放对保护环境的重要性。

Highlights

航运业对全球温室气体排放的贡献为3%，并正在努力实现到2050年左右达到净零排放的目标。

实现航运零排放需要整个生态系统的合作，解决行业系统性效率问题。

通过现有技术可以有效降低船队能源需求至少15%。

需要加速绿色燃料的生产，并扩大规模。

寻找过渡性商业模式，解决全球航运的支付意愿与绿色运输不匹配的问题。

强有力的国际法规对于确保正确的减排速度和加速度至关重要。

降低排放的燃料供应面临挑战，如在英国可用的HVO（氢化植物油）成本较高。

市场上对于即用型绿色燃料的可用性并不如预期，需要提高透明度。

未来燃料面临技术挑战，如甲醇和氨的毒性问题。

提高船舶能效是减少排放的关键，通过技术升级和改造可显著提高能效。

与2008年IMO基准相比，某项目通过技术升级减少了52%的碳强度。

能效提升不仅有助于环保，也从财务角度节省了燃料成本。

全球船队在能效提升方面存在巨大潜力，但目前尚未以应有的速度采纳可用技术。

随着向未来燃料过渡，由于能量密度的差异，提高能效将更容易进行过渡。

船东和公司在面对未来燃料选择时存在犹豫，应专注于现有可用的解决方案。

需要更多监管措施，如加速采纳能效指标、建立全球绿色燃料标准和征收碳税。

碳税可以平衡重油和绿色燃料之间的竞争力，并支持公正和公平的过渡。

欧盟的排放交易计划（ETS）将推动行为改变，支持绿色转型。

支持先行者和快速跟随者，通过绿色走廊项目示范小规模的成功案例。

绿色走廊是创建封闭环境，展示如何在特定航线上实施绿色航运。

挪威通过政府补贴和政策推动，成功实施了电动渡轮的绿色走廊项目。

绿色走廊项目有助于与各利益相关者就绿色议程的价值和成本分配进行对话。

需要重新思考经济模型，将环境作为资源纳入定价，并考虑碳排放的成本。

提高对范围3排放的认识和透明度，开始测量和管理这些排放。

从燃料的整个生命周期（从井到船尾）考虑排放，确保真正的减排效果。

实现零排放对于应对气候变化、社会责任和商业风险至关重要。

解决这些挑战不仅可以减少风险，还可以为航运业带来巨大的商业机会。

Transcripts

[Music]

if we get shipping to represent the

impact that it has on society then we

might start to think about shipping less

and do things in a different

way

[Music]

this is beyond the Box integrated

Logistics From the Inside

[Music]

Out hello and welcome to beyond the box

coming to you from the world's Maritime

Forum in Copenhagen I'm alen Hoffman

among the important topics being

discussed here is the road to zero

carbon emissions for maritime shipping

as you'll know from previous episodes of

the podcast maritime shipping is

responsible for 3% of global greenhouse

gas emissions last year the

international Maritime organization the

IMO revised its greenhouse gas strategy

and set a new Target for the industry to

reach net zero emissions by or around

2050 so where are we on that Journey To

Zero what are the challenges and what

might be ahead in future to unpack this

I'm joined by pel delgard chief officer

of government business and Analytics ICS

at the mask mckin mher Center for zeroc

carbon shipping oyin Jensen Chief

sustainability officer with ell and

Gareth price head of decarbonization for

Spitzer thank you all for being here

thank you for having me here thank you P

perhaps we can start with you what will

it take for us to get to zero a huge

huge collaboration we need to bring the

full ecosystem together to find

solutions to those systemic

inefficiencies that we have in the

industry but you could say very briefly

we need to focus on the energy demand

from the fleet we can ruce that with

existing technology quite effectively at

least by some

15% we also need to look at the or

accelerate the production of green fuels

that needs to be scaled big time and

then we need to find transitionary

business models that can solve the

problem that shipping is Global it's

International and sometimes you will

have that the willingness to pay is not

exactly where the Green Transportation

is sitting so how do you connect the

physical world with the aspirations and

finally to drive all that we need a very

solid International regulation so we

ensure that we get the right speed and

the right acceleration right so maybe

we'll start on the green fuels it's

actually something that we talked about

in episode five of the podcast Gareth I

can go to you because fuels with lower

emissions are obviously a very important

part of this puzzle how do we get to

that point where we can ensure that

Supply meets

demand I think it's probably one of the

primary challenges we face so fit to the

organization that I work in last year we

had 68 tugboats running on

HBO and and we really pushed that model

to make it happen in the market we were

in UK ho is available and we could use

it it comes a quite a high cost premium

but what we found when we looked across

our wider organization into markets like

AA and uh Australia and places like this

then the availability of those drop in

fuels which are crucial for making

immediate change they're just not that

we hear lots of offers for fuels but

actually when you get down to it and say

hey I want to buy a blend B30 or B20 or

b50 or whatever then all of a sudden

it's not quite there and it's just a bit

of work to do here and just a bit of

work to that so I think transparency is

certainly key about what can be offered

where you can get it and then

limitations around using it and in the

background when we start looking at

Future Fuels then you start to see even

more challenges because the technology

isn't necessarily there to utilize the

fuel the way you want for our vessels

where they're smaller we don't have

engines to use methanol ammonia is very

difficult because of the toxicity issues

around that not impossible but it's

going to take a long time to get there I

think really the key there is

transparency across the supply chain all

the actors that need to come into play

to make a fuel work and then find

solutions that you can accelerate

because the timelines from our

perspective are really slow to be able

to start accessing Future Fuels where we

can see the price metric coming down

faster so collaboration and transparency

and then ultimately uh a commitment to

work together to solve the

[Music]

issues and so the Energy Efficiency of

vessels also comes into this oyin can

you tell us how far have we come on this

front and how far do we still have to go

I think that there are uh multiple

answers to that questions and uh what we

have done in odfi we have been focusing

on Energy Efficiency for a long period

of time to be honest it was not

something that we did because of uh

emission and environmental perspective

it was from a pure Financial perspective

because we wanted to spend less money on

fuel uh make our ships more energy

efficient uh that was initially the Dy

overs for all the things that we did so

we looked at this from an operational

perspective a technical perspective we

did some uh inves ments quite massive

Investments we updated the propeller

rers technical upgrades and retrofits

that we did on existing vessels and it

had tremendous results so one of the

projects actually improved Energy

Efficiency with 20% and we've continued

doing that and we measure ourselves on

this all the time so we actually now

reported parallel with our financial

reporting in all our quarter reporting

we report on on carbon intensity of the

fleet and if we compare to what would be

the 2008 IMO bench Mark which is the

Benchmark for the CII uh we have been

reducing our carbon intensity with 52%

which is a lot and that's why we also

kind of surprised that a lot of other

companies don't take all these actions

because they are there uh and I think it

will be a long time before we get a new

fuel available there's still a lot of

things that that can be done we're now

retrofitting also our some war ships

with sales in order to further improve

carbon intensity wow that's uh really

interesting PR what would you like to

add to this no I was I was just thinking

that it's been fantastic to hear all the

initiative you do and and it's exactly

what you would as an economist think

that's the right thing to do but just

adding to your question I think we need

to look at the broader picture um if we

look at the global Fleet there's an

immense potential there's a lot of

available technology out there we can

save 15% of what we're spending right

now but it's not being uptaken at all at

the speed that it should there's also

more complexity in terms of who owns or

who operates um but it's it's just

important that we recognize those first

movers and we also recognize that the

tail end is really really big and

there's an enormous potential that we

need to address yeah I think vessel

efficiency really can be like the unsung

hero here as well because the other

dimension is that as you transition to

Future Fuels like methyl and ammonia or

battery power you don't have the same

energy density as you get with fossil

fuel so for methanol it's about 2.3

times more methanol to deliver against

what one unit of diesel in our case so

is saving on fuel being more efficient

means it's easier to transition to those

Future Fuels because you're going to

need more space on board to match the

amount of fuel on board so by cutting

your consumption rate then you save cost

in the short term but also It prepares

you better to work with these fuels that

have lower energy densities going

forward when I travel around and meet

people I the question I get the most

what what's your take on the future fuel

I think that that is uh a big question

uh and a lot of ship owners and and

companies get that question and I think

that the the kind of the good intention

becomes also an enemy because you don't

really know the answer to that and

instead of of doing what you can do

today with things that you have

available you're waiting for this

fantastic Solution that's going to solve

your problems that will not happen you

need to do whatever you can today it

will take long time before we are able

to get a zero fuel available at scale

but all these Solutions that's are there

it's on the table and the benefit of it

is that it's uh from a financial

perspective it makes sense as well

because you reduce the amount of fuel

that you're using as well so Energy

Efficiency is the real way to go in the

short

term R you mentioned regulations what

more would you like to see on the

regulations front oh a

lot so first of all we we operate with

what we call the short-term measures

which is very much about oin mentioned

the CII the energy efficiencies

accelerating that op take those are are

the immediately available

opportunities then we're talking about

the midterm measures uh where we both

need uh to have technical agreement on

global fuel standards what does green

fuel look like because that might depend

a lot on who you're talking to and the

second part that we would like to see is

a carbon Levy uh we firmly believe that

coming with a big stick uh well it's not

only coming with a big stick it's it's

also a matter of closing the gap between

you could say the artificially

subsidized heavy fuel or or fossil fuel

and the green fuel so putting in a

carbon Levy that ensures that the

competitiveness with heavy fuel is being

evened out and then ideally we would

like to see some of of the proceeds from

such a carbon Levy to be recirculated

into the industry in order to ensure a

just and Li quitable uh transition and I

wouldn't go as far as saying that not

some of the revenues for that I think

that all of the revenues should go back

in a truly circular system and I think

that by doing that the shipping industry

can solve these problems if you have a

levy or tax and now listen carefully you

hearing a ship owner calling for taxes

but uh uh I think that that is possible

as says you need to even out the

differences you are able to use this in

a closed system you can have a Lev on

the top or a tax uh to incentivize the

use of alternative fuel and you can use

the the revenues from that to developing

countries you you can subsidize green

corridors Etc and and that will not

happen by itself you need to have

regulation in order to do that we see

also that these regulations happens in

the EU where the the regulation is even

sharper we have the emission trading

scheme coming in Europe that is also

essential that this ETS system it drives

behavior and not uh just attacks because

uh it's not fully clear whether all

these revenues will they will go back to

energy or or to shipping and green

transition a lot of this will actually

fuel the European economy and I think

that that will be U difficult to take

that away if we got a global system

another element is that the the real

tool for the EU in order to achieve the

the 2040 targets now is the allowances

they will not be issued any new

allowances after 2039 and that means

that with the current policies in place

we're out of allowances you cannot go

and buy allowances to to go and emit CO2

in the EU after 2040 unless there's

changes to the policies uh in the

current picture so that is going to

really really drive the transition in

Europe and of course there's also a

concern that you lose competitiveness of

Europe compared to other countries so it

cannot continue to have a to be disfavor

of being in Europe but uh there's

certainly need of of Regulation to drive

this because it will not happen by

itself Gareth you share this view yeah

absolutely and and I think that this is

where the IMO can play a really crucial

role so that they can balance these

different regulatory regim so if you're

on that Level Playing Field between one

region or another you really do need

that sort of guiding hand to actually

maybe pick and choose the best of all

worlds if it's possible to get that

alignment I think it's fair to say most

companies are reticent to actually

promote for new regulation because it's

generally seen as a negative thing so I

think these things have to be quite

carefully framed that they are enabling

regulations that are helping to drive a

transition so that if you are taking

that strong front runner position that

that doesn't penalize your business

because at the end of the day we're all

here for a sustainable agenda but that

also means sustainable business so we

can't keep financing all these

initiatives on our own if customers

aren't willing to pay so the regulatory

environment needs to support those

companies that want to make the changes

that the policy makers want to achieve

with their own targets a country or or a

regional level actually enable business

to do the heavy lifting in terms of

driving through the

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difference per the MK m Müller Center

for zeroc carbon shipping has actually

highlighted the importance of supporting

first removers and fast followers what

would that look like we operate with a

concept uh that was initiated at um the

cop 26 in glasow uh by The Plight Bank

declaration uh the green corridors where

we are trying to you could say make a a

micro model of the world and instead of

of moving from an entirely black to an

entirely green global Shipping

environment you make a little closed

environment that could be from Chile to

Japan where you say in that particular

Corridor we put in place the the port

infrastructure we put in place the fuel

uh the green fuel production we put in

place the government permitting the

financing structure the vessels

everything so that will be a a

demonstrator of how could the whole

world look like if you're making say a

number of these first mov projects then

you can always expand so so imagine you

have Chile Japan it's going to be a

smaller thing then to extend that to

Chile Singapore and then you also have

Japan Singapore and and then you can

slowly accelerate that transition so

it's really about saying instead of

solving the big problem in one go which

is essentially impossible why don't we

chop it up to smaller chunks and

demonstrate how can we do it on a small

scale also learning from that and say

for instance on the regulatory

perspective the splitting the financing

you talked about the we need the the

customer to pay and obviously the

customer has to pay a part of it but but

there's big big Bill that has to be

split somewhere um and having finding

that right balance where it's a matter

of of subsidies it's a matter of

increased prices maybe for the customers

but it's also a matter of having other

parties cover their part of the bill and

and having a a real life example simply

allows you to see where where do we have

the big challenges and what could the

solution be for that yeah and uh coming

from Norway we have had actually had one

of the earlier some first successful

green

corridors uh as you know Norway is a lot

of Furs and in order to cross that you

would need a ferry some years back the

government did a quite bold decision and

they're saying that okay in order to get

a license to operate a ferry to cross

this F you will need to do that uh with

zero carbon it has to be electrical the

electrical feries was not on the market

at that time so the government said that

they was subsidize that they would start

developing the market and that's a kind

of a mini green Corridor and what's

happening now is that almost all fairies

at least all new fairies are electrical

in or and the market has been developed

and there's no longer this kind of level

of subsid because now an effective

Market uh the technology is there the

technology developed they see that

something going to pay for that so so I

think that the the green Corridor is a

very good example of that and if we are

able to use for example the revenues

from the ETS to promote OTE and

subsidize a green Corridor to

demonstrate that this is actually

working if then we can develop the

market develop the infrastructure see

that is possible goinging back to my

addition point about that close loop of

revenues it needs to be there uh to to

kind of stimulate and make the system go

by itself going forward so so I think

the the green green Corridor initiatives

are really positive because I think

shipping has become a victim of its own

success right the value of shipping and

the service it provides to uh the

economy that we we have today we've got

so efficient in this sector that it's

become so low a cost that it's taken for

granted and and I think that's a crucial

thing is that we need to start that and

start reflecting on well what is the

fair price to pay to take on these new

initiatives which come at a much higher

cost than we used to spending because

we've got like a 100 Years of efficiency

in shipping and working with fossil

fuels that we've got to replicate now

with the green fuel solution so I think

that the green Corridor stuff allows you

to have a different conversation with

all of the stakeholders in that

environment to look at those models

about what value do you bring to the

table what benefit can you do for the

green agenda and how do we allocate

those costs and the and recognize the

value to the customer equitably so we

can actually drive the change where

everybody benefits rather than single

actors through the chain having to carry

the higher or lower cost as it may be

shipping has become way too effective

from a financial perspective but because

we don't incorporate the environmental

aspect we doing things that are not good

for the environment and and that comes

back to also the carbon Levy if we get

the price right I guess that's a

different way of saying what you said

that we need to evaluate what's the

value that shipping is bringing right

now we are shipping Goods around the

world to process it to ship it back

again that's really from a climate

perspective of RA stupid thing if we get

shipping to represent the impact that it

has on society then we might start to

think about shipping less and do things

in a different way of course that's not

necessarily great for the shipping

company companies but from a a World's

perspective that might be the right

thing so it requires a significant

rethink it requires a significant

rethink but a rethink that is supported

by by some regulation because if it I

mean today economically it makes sense

to take your Catu knuts from West Africa

ship them to China to be roasted and

ship them back to Europe to be eaten

everybody can see from that example that

that's nonsense but we do it because

economically it works if we added the

the environmental impact to it it

wouldn't work anymore so so there's a

matter of of driving that aware well not

only awareness but but actually make it

available to people that know this is

not the right thing to do we should do

it different gett does that seem viable

to you uh I think it requires quite a

lot of wider discussion outside our own

industry because what you're touching on

is a fundamental change in the way that

we look at economic model so forever uh

the the the environment as a resource

has just been seen as an externality

outside of the traditional economic

model so you really need to rethink that

in terms of pricing in the resource that

is the environment which historically is

just seen as a linear way it'll never

run out we've always got enough resource

whether that's oil or metals or whatever

else we need to really change the

thinking around that and I think pricing

in the cost of a batement for carbon and

things like that is beginning to bring

nature into the economic model uh in a

soft way that helps us to move the

discussion forward without getting into

really more complex deeper economic

discussions because that's a massive

Topic in its own right I I fully agree

that and we think of some of those cost

element as a as a pass through cost in

the end that cost need to come to to the

end consumer that will drive Behavior Uh

but in order to do that also I think

that we have have still a long way to go

to focus on on scope 3 emissions to

really understand uh what's what's your

kind of your total footprint for us who

operates in a kind of businesses to

business area it's a little bit

different than if you're trans exporting

goods for Ikea because then you have uh

customers that are more cautious about

the footprint of the product that they

buy so so I think that there's a there's

a strong movement there uh if you buy

electrical car today the the customers

of that electrical car is is more

interested in the kind of total

footprint or where this car is coming

from and the total footprint of that uh

compared to if you a kind of a oil major

buying a uh we are transporting a

chemical from a between chemical

producers so so I think it's a it's a

positive uh development in in that area

where we will see more and more informed

uh

customers the topic of scope 3 emissions

and tracking scope 3 emissions is is

really interesting and I think for many

businesses it is quite challenging

globally how how are businesses doing on

that front on the scope three reporting

um let's say that that's a an fantastic

opportunity for

improvement uh we have Global Partners

across the entire Maritime

ecosystem um where we also discussing

how do they deal with their scope three

and and whereas you it just five years

ago decarbonization was a bit of a new

topic now everybody has a position and

an opinion about their scope one and two

I think scope three is very much coming

into the picture but exactly as you say

it is a very difficult part to deal with

I think the the right approach that

fortunately many partners uh do take and

and also other companies is to say let's

get started we're not going to get it

right in the first place but at least

starting to to to identify what does the

scope three consist of how do we measure

it how can you can't manage it unless

you start to measure right so so there's

a there's a whole learning process that

we as a global Community need to to go

through to understand how do you handle

scope three um and I think I'm I'm

actually quite positive if I look at

what has happened over the last 5 years

in terms of understanding awareness um

taking serious professional opinions and

initiatives to address scope one and two

if we can continue on that same

trajectory for scope three I think we we

will push the world in in a good

direction but it is a challenging uh

area and there's there's a whole

transparency element that Garrett's

called talked about before there's the

data quality uh challenge it's easy to

come up with something I think we

sometimes in Europe we we have this idea

that if if we get a report from A

supplier it's all good uh when you work

in different parts of the world there's

a data quality issue uh to say it in a

polite way for me the scope three stuff

from the procurement side of things

that's going to be one of the biggest

challenges going forward what I would

say is that actually the need to act now

from our perspective if you focus on

scope one and scope two when you take

that CO2 level down that's a net benefit

from a scope three perspective to the

company that you supply your service to

so starting now will actually help you

as a business to be able to respond more

quickly when your customers change and

want to know about scope 3 so these

things all go hand in hand when you

start to take a step back and look at

the total supply chain about where you

can actually be effective in supporting

that value proposition up and down the

supply chain 100% agree but I also think

that uh to bring it back to the alter a

fuel discussion because when you're

looking at kind of scope three on the

fuel we need to as an industry we need

to understand uh and not look at it very

isolated because it's easy for us I can

bring on board a zero fuel from the tank

until the wake and I'm I can be happy I

can be good I can report zero but if the

development or production of that has

fuel has actually increased compared to

the alternative so from a well to tank

perspective then we have uh then we have

gone the wrong way so so I think that

just the the scope three thinking the

value chain thinking or the well to wake

thinking is also

essential before we wrap up maybe we can

have a line from each of you explaining

why zero getting to zero matters well I

think if we don't do it uh there would

be very many places on the earth that

will be not very nice to be at so I

wouldn't say that it's for us to survive

I think we will survive but if we want

want to have a pleasant place to live we

need to do something to The Climate

totally agree with that it's clear the

climate change and the impacts that

we're having as a society are massively

damaging and affecting communities

globally and we as companies we should

take our share of the responsibility of

helping to support that but I also think

that increasingly it's showing up as a

clear business risk that if you don't do

something to pair now we're not going to

be able to respond in the future when it

becomes a much more acute issue through

a regulatory structure or whatever so

we've touched the fact that things take

a while in the maritime industry to come

to maturity to the point where they're

cost effective and you can trust and it

doesn't affect your operation we need to

start taking those steps now to mature

the Technologies we need to be able to

really deliver on the goals that are

going to be necessary to attack climate

change issues we also see this on the

flip side of that and the opportunity

side of course we need to do something

from a climate risk perspective from a

society perspective from a business

perspective but we also see that it can

come also with tremendous opportunities

so if you were able to solve these

difficult questions and able to to find

that technology and scale it up to a

possible scale it will also give

tremendous business opportunities for us

going forward so so I think both from a

risk and opportunity perspective it's

it's essential to do

that that's it for this episode of

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