Pioneers: Alan Kay

Notion Pioneers
16 Sept 202150:36

Summary

TLDRこのエピソードでは、オブジェクト指向プログラミングやグラフィカルユーザーインターフェースの先駆者であるアラン・K・ベストが登場し、コンピューティングの進化に貢献したエキスパートたちとの対話を紡ぎます。アランはApple、Atari、Disney、Xerox、PARC、NYU、Hewlett-Packardなどで働いた経験豊富なエキスパートで、民主主義、科学、そして文明に対する独特の視点を提供しています。彼の洞察に沿って、メディアの進化とその影響、教育の重要性、そして未来の技術の発展について語り合い、聴聽に有益な知識を提供します。

Takeaways

  • 🌐 メディアの進化と民主主義の関係:異なるメディアが民主主義の形態を変える。
  • 📺 テレビと民主主義:テレビは感情やストーリーに重きを置くため、民主主義の真の価値とは無関係。
  • 📖 書物と科学の進歩:17世紀に始まる科学と民主主義の進歩は、物語形式を捨てることで進展した。
  • 🏛️ 古代アテネと法の公開:ソロンが法律を公開し、市民が法を直接参照できるようにした。
  • 🤔 人間の思考と進歩:人類の進歩は、文化を通じて進化した結果而非遺伝子によるもの。
  • 🌐 書記と文明の関連性:書記が文明の発展に影響を与えた。書記はアイデアを組織的に整理し、独立して考えることができる。
  • 📚 教育と哲学的重要さ:アメリカの公共教育システムは、共和国の投票公民を支えるための哲学と科学の教育が含まれている。
  • 📈 印刷と言語の進化:印刷が言語のスタイルを変え、より広範に伝えられるようになった。
  • 🔄 反復と教育のプロセス:教育は、人間が持つ自然な傾向に対抗するプロセスである。
  • 🌟 共和国制の課題:共和国制を維持するためには、権力よりも知恵が重要であることが保証されている必要がある。
  • 💡 科学の進歩と教育:科学の進歩は、教育システムがどのように進化させるかにかかわっている。

Q & A

  • アラン・ケイはどのような分野で先駆的な仕事をしているか説明してください。

    -アラン・ケイはオブジェクト指向プログラミング、グラフィカルユーザーインターフェース(GUI)の開発、およびDynabookの研究で知られています。彼はApple、Atari、Disney、Xerox、Park、NYU、Hewlett-Packardなどの企業や大学で研究を行っており、コンピューティングの今日を形作しているエンジニアや発明家との対話の中でその貢献が語られています。

  • アラン・ケイはデモクラシーが異なるメディアによってどのように変わると考えていますか?

    -アラン・ケイは、マーシャル・マクルハンが言ったように、デモクラシーは異なるメディアによって大きく変わることがあり、例えばパンフレットやテレビ、Twitterなど異なるメディアはデモクラシーに異なる影響を与えます。テレビはデモクラシーにとって最悪な発明であり、テレビは学びを要求せず、パーソナリティや感情、幸福感、物語に重点を置いていますが、デモクラシーや科学にはこれらの要素は関係がありません。

  • アラン・ケイは科学とデモクラシーがどのように進化してきたかを説明していますか?

    -アラン・ケイは、現代のデモクラシーと科学は17世紀に始まり、物語形式を放棄することで発明されたと説明しています。物語は感情的共鸣を感じる時に適切であり、人々は聖書や彩色玻璃の窓のように、感情に応える物語を見つけることができます。しかし、これらのものは理性化や改善のための手段として使用されています。

  • アラン・ケイは文明がどのように進化してきたかについてどう言っていますか?

    -アラン・ケイは、文明は私たちの脳の問題を介入、偏向、転換、変更するため、多くの進歩が遺伝子とは関係なく、文化を通じて進化したと考えています。私たちは遺伝子から進化したのではなく、文化を通じて進化し、協力的な本能と競争的な本能のバランスを取りながら進化しています。

  • アラン・ケイは教育において何が最も重要なだと考えていますか?

    -アラン・ケイは、教育において最も重要なことは、等しい権利の概念を教えることであり、これは非常に難しいことで、多くの人々がこれを真剣に信じていないという点に気づいている。彼は私たちが文化と共に進化し、コoperative driveを発揮することで進歩を遂げてきたと述べています。

  • アラン・ケイは新闻がどのように機能するかについてどう言っていますか?

    -アラン・ケイは、新闻は新しいことについて報道されるとされていますが、実際には既に理解されているカテゴリーの中で新しい事例を見つけることに重点を置いていると指摘しています。新聞は新しいカテゴリーを導入することができず、例えば微積分学のような新しい分野について報道することができないと述べています。

  • アラン・ケイはSolonの物語についてどのように言っていますか?

    -アラン・ケイは、ソロンが古代アテネ人の法律制定を求められた物語について言及しています。ソロンは非常に賢い男性であり、彼は法律を建築物の壁に書き記して公開することで、市民が周りを歩きながら法律を確認し、矛盾を気づかせるアプローチを取ったと述べています。

  • アラン・ケイはなぜ書物に対する感情的な衝撃が必要なのか説明していますか?

    -アラン・ケイは、世界が見たようにではないという認識を深く理解するために、感情的な衝撃が必要です。彼はフランク・オッペンハイマーがサンフランシスコ探検所を設立し、実際に科学がどのように機能するのかを学ぶ機会を提供したことを言及しています。

  • アラン・ケイはページ番号がどのような役割を果たしたかについてどう言っていますか?

    -アラン・ケイは、ページ番号が西洋文化では版画の注釈によって発明されたと述べ、ページ番号は本の議論をより強力にするために発明されたと説明しています。彼は、ページ番号が注釈と相互参照の「ハイパーリンク」のような役割を果たし、書物での議論はオーラル文化よりも強力であると指摘しています。

  • アラン・ケイはコンピュータの将来についてどう予測していますか?

    -アラン・ケイは、コンピュータの将来は人類の知的増幅器として機能し、世界範囲でネットワーク化されると予測しています。彼は、コンピュータが人間の集団のIQを増幅し、集団が最も愚か者よりも賢い意味を持つことを意味すると考えています。

  • アラン・ケイは教育において何を重視しているか説明してください。

    -アラン・ケイは、教育において子供たちが「常识世界」に完全にとらわれられる前に、彼らがそれを見ることができるようにすることが重要であると述べています。彼は、子供たちが7歳で言語装置を決定させることと関連していると指摘し、中世では7歳以上の子供は成人として扱われ、盗みを働いた場合、成人として処刑されたと述べています。

  • アラン・ケイは科学博物館における展品のどの側面を批判的に見ていますか?

    -アラン・ケイは、科学博物館が技術を展示し、科学の過程や科学がどのように機能するのかを説明する展示を提供していないことを批判しています。彼は、博物館がジェットエンジンなどの技術を展示する代わりに、科学がエンジニアリングにどのように影響を与えたかを示すことが一般的であると述べています。

Outlines

00:00

🎙️ 対話の開始と艾伦・K・ベスト氏の紹介

この段落では、ポッドキャストのホストであるデビンが艾伦・K・ベスト氏との対話を紹介しています。艾伦はオブジェクト指向プログラミング、グラフィカルユーザーインターフェース(GUI)、およびDynabookの先駆的な仕事で知られています。彼はApple、Atari、Disney、Xerox、Park NYU、Hewlett-Packardなどの企業で働いた経験があります。対話は、民主主義がパンフレット、TV、Twitterなどの異なるメディアでどのように異なって表現されるかに焦点を当てています。

05:02

🌐 メディアの進化と民主主義、科学の関係

この段落では、艾伦はマーシャル・マクルハンのメディア理論を引用し、テレビが民主主義の最悪な発明であると述べています。テレビは学びを要求せず、パーソナリティと感情に重点を置きます。対照的に、民主主義と科学は、物語形式を放棄することで発明されました。艾伦は、ソロンが古代アテネの法律を建築物の壁に書くことで、市民が法律を参照し始めたという伝説を引用しています。

10:04

📚 書物と知識の獲得

この段落では、艾伦は書物が知識を獲得するための重要なメディアであると述べています。書物は、一つの物語やアイデアを体系的に整理し、読者により独立して消費できる形式で情報を提供します。艾伦はまた、新聞が既存のカテゴリーに基づいて報道されることと、新しい知識を扱うことが困難であることを指摘しています。

15:06

🖋️ 書写の重要性和教育の進歩

この段落では、書写の発明が文明と教育にどのように影響を与えたかについて、艾伦が語っています。書写は、アイデアを組織的に整理し、読者が独立して消費できるようにすることで、知識の獲得を促進しました。また、艾伦は、教育システムがどのようにして共和国の投票公民を支えるために設立されたか、そして科学と哲学の教育が人間が自然な思考を超える方法を学ぶのに役立ったかについても話しています。

20:06

📈 進歩と文化的適応

この段落では、艾伦は進歩が遺伝子ではなく、文化を通じて達成されたと述べています。私たちは遺伝子から独立したく、文化と共に進化する生物です。艾伦は、競争と協力の両方の駆動力がどのように私たちの遺伝子から来ているか、そして経済システムがどのように協力を促進することが困難であるかについても話しています。

25:08

🌟 科学の進化と未来の教育

この段落では、艾伦は科学の進化と教育の将来について語っています。彼は、科学が私たちの思考を革新的なものに変えるために、教育がどのように役立ったかを強調しています。また、新しい技術が教育にどのように影響を与えるか、そして未来の教育がどのようになっていくかについても議論しています。

30:10

🛠️ コンピュータ技術の発展と人間の知性

この段落では、コンピュータ技術の発展が人間の知性とどのように関連しているかについて、艾伦が説明しています。彼は、コンピュータが人間の知性を拡張するためのツールとして使用され、個人的な知性を集約し、グループのIQを向上させるために重要な役割を果たしていると強調しています。

35:10

🎨 ビジュアル化と知性の発展

この段落では、ビジュアル化が知性の発展にどのように寄与しているかについて、艾伦が語っています。彼は、視覚が私たちの知性に与える影響と、書写や印刷が言語処理を減らしてリードABLEさを向上させる方法を説明しています。また、艾伦は、ビジュアル化が教育や科学の発展にどのように役立ったかについても議論しています。

40:11

🤖 未来の技術と人間の進化

この段落では、艾伦は未来の技術が人間の進化にどのように影響を与える可能性があるかについて語っています。彼は、技術が私たちの遺伝子を改善することができるが、その進化は自然な進化とは異なる道をたどることになる可能性があると述べています。艾伦は、技術と進化のバランスが重要であると強調しています。

Mindmap

Keywords

💡オブジェクト指向プログラミング

オブジェクト指向プログラミングは、ソフトウェア開発においてオブジェクトを中心としたプログラミング方法です。この方法では、データと手続きを結びつけたオブジェクトを作成し、それらの相互作用を通じてソフトウェアを構築します。ビデオでは、アラン・K・ベストがオブジェクト指向プログラミングの先駆的な仕事について語っています。

💡グラフィカルユーザーインターフェース

グラフィカルユーザーインターフェース(GUI)は、コンピュータやデジタルデバイスを操作するためのグラフィカル表現のインターフェースです。ユーザーは、アイコンやボタンなどの視覚的に認識できる要素を操作して、コマンドを入力します。GUIは、文字ベースのコマンドラインインターフェースと比べて、直感的で使いやすいとされています。

💡ダイナブック

ダイナブックは、アラン・K・ベストが提唱したコンピュータベースの教育システムの概念です。このシステムは、学習者にとって適切なペースで教材を提供し、インタラクティブな学習体験を促進することを目的としています。

💡メディア

メディアは、情報やコンテンツを伝達するための手段やプラットフォームを指します。テレビ、ラジオ、新聞、インターネットなどがメディアに該当します。ビデオでは、各種メディアが民主主義にどのように影響を与えているかについて議論されています。

💡民主主義

民主主義は、国政が国民によって直接または間接的に決定される政治システムです。民主主義の核心的な価値は、平等な権利、選択の自由、そして国民による政府の統治です。ビデオでは、メディアの進化が民主主義にどのように影響を与えているかが分析されています。

💡科学

科学は、自然現象や社会現象を理解するために、観察、実験、理論の構築を用いた知の追求の活動です。科学は客観的で論理的な手法を用いて、普遍的な法則性を探求します。ビデオでは、科学が民主主義と同様に17世紀に始まり、物語形式を放棄することで進歩を遂げてきたと述べています。

💡文明

文明は、人類が社会、文化、技術を通じて進化させた状態を指します。文明の発展は、知識の蓄積、社会制度の確立、そして人間の生活水準の向上に反映されます。ビデオでは、文明が人間の脳の誤解や不足を補完する仕組みを発明し、改善しようとする試みとして描かれています。

💡協力

協力は、個体が互いに助け合い、共同の目標を達成するために働く行為です。文明の発展において、協力は社会的な生き物としての人類の進化と、競争から協力的な関係へのシフトに関連しています。

💡書物

書物は、知識や情報を記述した媒体のことで、書籍、雑誌、新聞、文献などがあります。書物は、情報を保存し、後世に伝える重要な手段であり、教育や知識の普及に不可欠です。ビデオでは、書物が民主主義や科学の発展にどのように寄与したかが議論されています。

💡新闻

新闻は、最新の情報や出来事を報道するメディアのことで、新聞、テレビ、オンラインニュースなどがあります。新闻は、社会に重要な情報を提供し、大衆の注意を引く役割を果たします。ただし、ビデオでは新闻が既存の知識や理解に基づく情報のみを提供し、新しい知識や理解を深めることには不足していると指摘されています。

💡教育

教育は、知識やスキルを習得し、個人の能力や理解を向上させるプロセスです。教育は、公共教育システムやプライベート教育、自己学習など、様々な形態で行われます。ビデオでは、教育が民主主義や科学の進歩にどのように関与し、どのようにその価値を高めるかが議論されています。

💡文化

文化は、一つの社会や集団が共有する信仰、価値観、習慣、芸術、言語などを指します。文化は、人間の行動や思考に深く影響を与え、進歩や発展を促進する役割を持っています。ビデオでは、文化が人類の進化や進歩にどのように関与しているかが議論されています。

Highlights

Devin's conversation with Allen K, a pioneer in object-oriented programming, GUIs, and Dynabook, who has worked at Apple, Atari, Disney, Xerox, PARC, NYU, Hewlett-Packard, and beyond.

Discussion on how different media affects democracy, with television being compared to stained glass windows as it doesn't require learning and focuses on personality and feelings, rather than democratic principles.

The importance of storytelling in human culture and its limitations in the context of democracy and science, which both originated in the 17th century and required a shift from story forms.

The historical example of Solon and the Athenians using written laws as a browsable version of their principles, leading to the realization of contradictions and the need for a more rational approach to governance.

The idea that civilization is a set of processes trying to mediate, deflect, and modify the flaws in human brain's genetic tendencies, with democracy being one such process that is difficult for people to grasp.

The concept of rationalizing animals versus rational animals, emphasizing the role of culture in human progress and the need to think of ourselves as intertwined with our cultures.

The impact of writing and reading on the way ideas are thought about and organized differently, allowing for independent reception of ideas and fostering a slower, more reflective mode of thinking.

The role of news media in reinforcing existing knowledge and categories, rather than introducing new concepts or categories that challenge the audience's understanding.

The historical significance of the printing press in changing the style of writing and its contribution to the establishment of a voting citizenry capable of supporting a republic.

The importance of education in teaching philosophy and science to enable citizens to think in ways that are not natural to humans, and the challenge of ensuring that wisdom exceeds power.

The story of the U.S. Constitution's drafting process, highlighting the importance of agreement on the process rather than on every detail and the role of the annotated draft in facilitating this.

The concept of the San Francisco Exploratorium and its mission to teach science through hands-on exhibits that challenge conventional perceptions and encourage a deeper understanding of the world.

The discussion on the limitations of traditional science museums and the need for exhibits that showcase the process of science rather than just its technological applications.

The historical development of page numbers and their role in facilitating stronger arguments within written works, contributing to the decline of oral storytelling.

The influence of the printing press as a catalyst for change, accelerating the Renaissance and the shift in human understanding of the world.

The importance of teaching children critical thinking skills before they become fully entrenched in the common sense world, with a focus on elementary education.

The discussion on the potential dangers of genetic modification, emphasizing the need for cultural and educational development alongside technological advancements.

The vision of the ARPA community for computers to become interactive intellectual amplifiers for all humanity, and the funding strategy of supporting the most capable and innovative thinkers.

Transcripts

play00:01

[Music]

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hello i'm devin and you're listening to

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the eighth episode of tools and craft a

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series of conversations with the

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designers engineers and inventors who

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are shaping computing

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today i'm talking to allen k best known

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for his pioneering work on object

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oriented programming graphical user

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interfaces also known as gui's and

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dynabook

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he's worked at apple atari disney xerox

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park nyu hewlett-packard and beyond alan

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thank you so much for taking the time to

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chat i've been really looking forward to

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this conversation glad to be here how is

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democracy different when the medium is

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pamphlets versus tv versus twitter

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versus some other medium well mcluhan

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had a good line about it he said he said

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look you can argue about a lot of things

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with stained glass windows but democracy

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is not one of them what does that mean

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the the stained glass windows the worst

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thing you could ever invent

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for democracy is television

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television is the stained glass windows

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of

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the 20th century and it is that because

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it doesn't require any learning and

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because it has this glow to it

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that is all about personality

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and it's about feelings and it's about

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happiness it's about story

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and democracy has nothing to do with any

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of those things nor does science

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our modern versions of democracy and

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science were both

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started their invention in the 17th

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century

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and part of

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what catalyzed those inventions was

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people gradually being able to give up

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on story forms

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we like stories when they're apt when we

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feel resonance to them this is why

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people

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are not at all disturbed by the

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contradictions in the bible

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or in fact in stained glass windows

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because

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if you're feeling one way like justice

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must be served you find the stained

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glass window that shows somebody getting

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punished for sinning or you dip into the

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bible for that line

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but if you're feeling another way about

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forgiveness you can go to another

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stained glass window and there it is

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telling you that your feelings there

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we have you know proverbial

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societies

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which most traditional societies are

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if you list out the proverbs they all

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cancel each other out

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so

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absence makes the heart grow fonder

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but out of sight out of mind

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you can't tell a book by its cover but

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where there's smoke there's fire

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and one of the legends about

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solon

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who was called on by the

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early athenians

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to make laws for them

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because they were tired of having

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tyrants

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this is like 6th century bc and solon

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was a very wise man

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so he approached this carefully but

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according to the legend the first thing

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he did is said well let's write down

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everything we think

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is a principle of our society on the

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walls of our buildings and they actually

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put up billboards using this new

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technology they had which is writing

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with an alphabet

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and

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so now the athenians had

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a browsable

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version of their laws

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and you could walk around town

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and see oh yeah here's this one and

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here's that one and pretty soon they

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started noticing that they canceled each

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other out

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because what people use these things for

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was as rationalizations

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and for ways of feeling better and

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people still do that today that is the

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predominant form of

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human thinking

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it hasn't changed in a hundred thousand

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years and almost all progress that the

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humanity has made in my opinion

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has come from opposing

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most of our genetic tendencies

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and

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i i think of civilization as being a set

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of processes trying to invent things

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that mediate

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deflect

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turn away and modify most of the things

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that are wrong with our brain

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and the problem is is that we can't

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change our brain we can only change

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some of the processes in it through

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training

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and so democracy is one of these things

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it has

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an idea lurking in it that is

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still one of the hardest ideas for

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people to learn which is the idea of

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equal rights this is very hard to teach

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and most people don't believe it for a

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second a lot of people paid lip service

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to the idea for sure people say that

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they believe it what's the difference

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between uh their actions and their

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statements

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lip service is just rationalization

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but the science fiction writer robert

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heinemann once said we're not rational

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animals we're rationalizing animals

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we are the animal that made its progress

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through culture our progress our

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progress has not been through genetics

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but

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being able to

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do something faster than genetics can do

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and because of that

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we have to think of ourselves as

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intertwined with our cultures we've got

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a cooperative drive

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that makes us a social creature and we

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have this competitive thing that like

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likely comes from being a subsistence

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animal for most of our

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genetic heritage and there's hardly

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anything that

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competition really helps and this is one

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of the biggest problems with

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many economic systems that can only work

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through competition

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they just can't do cooperation because

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cooperation makes it much easier to gain

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the cooperative system

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one of the theories is that the reason

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that writing is correlated with

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civilization writing allows ideas to be

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thought about

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and organized differently and most

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importantly it allows the reading of the

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ideas the receipt of the ideas to be

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done independently of response the

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biggest problem with oral and see i've

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what i'm doing here is i'm not

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conversing and i i really can't converse

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very well at my age because i've lost my

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patients

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and so i what i do is to pontificate

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which is the same as giving you

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something like it's written in normal

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conversation

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there's this tit-for-tat kind of thing

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but even worse if somebody says

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something interesting and you just sit

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there for five minutes thinking about it

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they start getting upset

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but in fact i do that all the time when

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i'm reading because it's i'm sure you

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know about daniel kahneman and thinking

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fast and slow and

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so the whole point here is what are all

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the modes

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that allow us to think slow

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rather than to think reactively

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and a lot of these are correlated with

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these inventions

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like writing and reading and

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some of the new media that

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that have been invented news is

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supposedly about new things right but if

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you look at the news

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the all the categories are ones that are

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completely understood by the audience

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they couldn't do 22 minutes of

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television news

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if they introduced a new category like

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calculus here we're going to tell you

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something about calculus tonight on the

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evening news

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and i can i'll i'll give you a 30

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seconds before the commercial break on

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it

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no that's new new is something that you

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have to train your mind

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to actually be able to deal with in a

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fluent way

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news is finding another instance

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of something you already know about it's

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another murder another corrupt action by

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a politician another

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this another that you already know

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everything about it except the tiny

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detail

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one of the big deals when printing came

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along

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was it changed the style of writing

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because when you're doing oral

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traditions and writing them down in oral

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stories writing them down

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the stories are never told the same way

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twice

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because nobody can remember them exactly

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and so what you

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what you're doing there is painting with

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a broad brush

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the reason why we have a public

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education system in the u.s

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is partly because of people like

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jefferson

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but basically a lot of the founders

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of the country

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realized that in order for a

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to have a voting citizenry

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that could support a republic what you

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do that and a lot of it is learning

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philosophy and what we would call

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science today

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learning how to think

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in ways that are not natural to human

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beings and at age 55 or so they become

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you know a guardian and they're supposed

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to have achieved enough wisdom to be

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able to deal with this power that's the

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problem how to make sure that the wisdom

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exceeds the power rather than the other

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way around so you know romans tried it

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and one of the jokes

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of one of the roman poets a few hundred

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years later was who will guard the

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guardians right so if you set up a

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republic maybe only the rich rich

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families will join in and maybe they'll

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use this to their advantage and so so

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the big problem when the when it finally

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you know

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1500 years later so when the

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the us was trying to put together the

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constitution

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this is one of the things that

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the thinkers wrestled with you know

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should we have a republican should we do

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a monarchy no

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there's a good argument about that in

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thomas paine's

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common sense pamphlet

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and common sense was a joke

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because the common sense was that you

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should have a monarchy but what payne

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wanted to do in this little 40-page

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pamphlet was

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to say no forget about what we think of

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as common sense and to paraphrase what

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he said he said instead of having the

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king be the law we can have the law be

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the king

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meaning we can design a whole new

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society that pamphlet had a distribution

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of somewhere between six hundred

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thousand and nine hundred thousand

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copies

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in the six months right before the

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declaration of independence

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so there are 1.5 million colonists

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in the 13 colonies at this time that a

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600 000 to 900 000

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pamphlets

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of this argument went out think about

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how would you get that coverage today if

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you type into

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google something like proofs of the

play10:53

constitution the rofs of the

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constitution

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and go to images it

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looks like a book with very wide margins

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yeah so it's printed on the right hand

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side right and then there's all the

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celebrations think about here are these

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uh there are these 55 guys

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that

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have six months to do all the baiting

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and all the organizing all the designing

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and then writing the damn thing so this

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is pretty quick they did a pretty good

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job

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they didn't agree at the end but one of

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the most important things about the

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process is it didn't require everybody

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to be in agreement what they agreed on

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was that they were going to get the

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constitution done and so any curious

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person i would think would

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at some point would say well wait a

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minute 55 people how could they draft

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this thing right there you see it right

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there the answer is that every night the

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annotated stuff

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was typeset remember it was in

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philadelphia which is the city of

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printers those types said overnight it

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was printed before breakfast

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and when they came into their meeting

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everybody had a fresh copy that looked

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like

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the thing there but without any

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handwriting on it and they debated from

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that they each had their own copy they

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wrote their own notes

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and then towards the end of the day they

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would assemble what was going to happen

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on the next draft isn't that great

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you may know of a place called the san

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francisco exploratorium crazy

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yeah done by a friend of mine frank

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oppenheimer started trying to get

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children but also college students to

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learn something real about science

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because

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when you're in an educational

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institution

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the tendency the easy way out

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is to try and teach

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what the field already knows rather than

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how the field came to know it and think

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that especially the undergraduate

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professors they might not be so really

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scientific as you might hope

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so

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frank started putting together a bunch

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of exhibits

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at the university of colorado

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to teach one thing and one thing only

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which is the world is not as it seems

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this is one of them some years later

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when he went to california

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they gave him a lot of money for

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what they thought was going to be a

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science museum

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which again

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almost never has any science in it

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if you go into a science museum you'll

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find jet planes and every other kind of

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thing but basically you find technology

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you never see an exhibit about newton's

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principia about the process of science

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what it is

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you never see anything what you see is

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how science might have affected

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engineering i've served on some museum

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advisory boards and

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one of the key phrases museums have is

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called release time release time is the

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maximum time anybody can be allowed

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to look at a particular exhibit right

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because you've got all these other

play13:53

people so it's usually about two minutes

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how much are you going to learn about

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something you don't know about in two

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minutes because a museum can't be

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anything else but a commercial and real

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question is what is a commercial for so

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number one thing before you even get

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into what science is is you have to make

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the epistemological step of

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getting a hit

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a deep emotional hit that you'll never

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forget that the world is not as it seems

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and so frank's idea was well we can

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handle 2 000 kids at a time because they

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had this huge thing that used to be a

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world's fair pavilion

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in san francisco

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and

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panel two two thousand kids at a time

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and we can put set up 500 exhibits

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there and by the way we'll we'll

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have the shop and the thing that

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manufacturing of these of the exhibits

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is one of the exhibits

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so the people so the new people are

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working on the new exhibits this is part

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of the museum so the kids can see

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that but the basic idea is randomly

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bouncing kids around on this stuff

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everything hands on

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what's the chance that a one of these

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two thousand kids will find the exhibit

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that hits them between the eyes in a way

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they'll never forget

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funders of this complained bitterly when

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they found out what he did we wanted we

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thought this was going to be a sign you

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know they thought of it as something

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like a rock and roll

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mosh pit bunch kids running around

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screaming where's this where's the

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you know where the jet engines

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frank said well you can't explain a jet

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engine

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somebody who thinks the world is the way

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it seems you can think about this the

play15:31

next time you fly on a plane and look

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out the window at the engine there but

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in several critical parts of that engine

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the temperatures are higher than the

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melting points of any of the metals

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any of the materials

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higher

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right and those things will go for about

play15:49

9 000 hours of before you need

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maintenance

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so they're like almost perfect

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but you can't really explain that to

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people

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you know you have to you have to get

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people out of this simple-minded fast

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way of dealing with the world and give

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them this other mode or the other thing

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i was going to mention is that you know

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the jews invented page numbers before

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the occidentals did so one of the first

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places for page numbers

play16:16

occurred in the annotated talmud

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in the

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but in

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western culture page numbers seem to be

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invented about 60 or 70 years after the

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printing press the way the books were

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assembled was that at the bottom of each

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page would be the a word or two on this

play16:38

was going to be on the next page

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so no page numbers and the reason was is

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that each edition in europe of the same

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work was typeset differently

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in a different town right so when page

play16:50

numbers were invented and they look like

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they're invented by eldest menus and

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erasmus

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they were apparently invented to allow

play16:58

stronger argument in the same book which

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is what the jews actually used for doing

play17:03

hyperlinking in the talmud because

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writing leads to stronger argument than

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you can ever have

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in oral culture nobody can remember

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people start arguing about what they

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said

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right

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right

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but you said no no you know you

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know let's write it all down we can go

play17:22

check it let's not argue about what was

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said we've got this thing called writing

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and once we do that

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that means we can make an argument out

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of a much larger body

play17:33

of evidence

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than you can ever do in an oral society

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it starts killing off story because

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stories don't refer back a key book for

play17:43

people who are wary of mcluhan to

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understand this is one or one of the key

play17:48

books is is by elizabeth eisenstein

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it's a very respected it's a mighty tome

play17:55

it's a two volume tome called the

play17:57

printing press as an agent of change

play18:00

and this is kind of the way to think

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about it as a kind of catalyst

play18:05

because it happened the printing press

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did not

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make the renaissance happen the

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renaissance was already starting to

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happen but it was a huge accelerant for

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what had already started started

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happening and what uh kenneth clark

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called big thaw

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you had mentioned that the framers of

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the constitution sort of got tough and

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started thinking in a more scientific

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way science is the thing that if you get

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tough all of a sudden you realize almost

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nothing that you think is going on is

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going on so my question is how do you

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how do you get tough what are the things

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that you can do in your mind that help

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make you better a better thinker

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the easiest thing is to help children

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see it before they are completely

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fastened on the common sense world

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that's why almost all the main work i

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did in education was done in elementary

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school there's a commitment that

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children make to

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what you might call normalcy that is

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correlated with

play19:03

their settling down much of their

play19:06

language apparatus around age seven age

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seven was the age of majority in the

play19:12

middle ages so if you were a child who

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was age seven or older and you were

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caught pickpocketing you were hung

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as an adult there wasn't a concept of

play19:22

something between infancy and adulthood

play19:24

neil postman wrote a book on that he

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said one of the things that created the

play19:28

concept of childhood was the printing

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press

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suddenly there was something to do

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before you could become an adult

play19:35

which is learn how to read start

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learning more than what you're picking

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up in a village society one way to look

play19:41

at all of this stuff is a lot of

play19:45

what we think of as being progressive

play19:48

is

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being able to co-op our language

play19:53

apparatus

play19:54

to build other things on top of it with

play19:57

because we don't get to change our

play19:59

genetics

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yet

play20:01

and i'll be long gone and it's possible

play20:03

to do it right now probably some people

play20:06

are illegally fooling around with it

play20:09

because of the crispr if you give a cave

play20:11

person a spear that has a factor of a

play20:14

million power

play20:15

over the spear

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and you don't

play20:18

fix something in their brain by training

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by acculturation or something like that

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you've

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created something that is much worse

play20:27

than a million bad cave people

play20:30

with spears right

play20:32

so so that's where we are we've

play20:36

and

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one of the simplest things that isn't

play20:38

taught to children

play20:40

is scaling our brains can hardly handle

play20:43

it so if i if i show you one picture

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then another picture in the other

play20:48

picture a half second apart

play20:50

you'll see the pictures individually but

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if i just go up

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right so that's two a second if i just

play20:55

go up by a factor of ten all of a sudden

play20:57

you can't see the individual pictures

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your brain fuses them into a movie

play21:02

that's just a factor of 10. so the the

play21:04

thing that that is what the arpa

play21:06

community in the 60s and then park

play21:09

joined it

play21:10

park was part of the arpa community was

play21:12

just funded by xerox

play21:14

but it was

play21:15

populated with people who got their phds

play21:17

in the arpa community

play21:19

so the the vision of the arpa community

play21:22

articulated by the guy who set it up in

play21:24

1962 was the destiny of computers

play21:28

are to become interactive intellectual

play21:31

amplifiers for all humanity pervasively

play21:34

networked worldwide and

play21:37

so whenever anybody

play21:39

asked him what he was funding he would

play21:40

just say that and when they said well

play21:42

how are you going to do that he says

play21:43

well i don't know but

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i'm funding

play21:46

the most capable smartest widest

play21:49

thinking people i know

play21:52

and if 30 of them come through

play21:54

i'll be happy and

play21:55

they said well but what about the 70

play21:57

failure he said well

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he said we're

play22:01

we're not playing golf we're playing

play22:02

baseball baseball if you hit 300 you're

play22:05

doing well

play22:06

and the 70 you don't get a hit it's not

play22:09

called failure it's called overhead

play22:12

because you're trying to do something

play22:13

very very difficult

play22:15

failure is the failure to catch a fly

play22:17

ball

play22:18

you're supposed to do that 98 or 99

play22:20

percent of the time that's just

play22:22

technique

play22:23

but technique doesn't allow you to you

play22:26

know even ted williams who developed

play22:28

modern

play22:29

batting technique only hit over 400 once

play22:31

in his career

play22:33

but look like i said it doesn't matter

play22:35

because if you look at if you look at

play22:36

the scope of what we're funding if we

play22:38

get 30 40 success we're going to change

play22:41

the world that is exactly what happened

play22:44

because one of the things he called for

play22:46

the very next year in 1963 was an

play22:48

intergalactic network

play22:51

and they said why intergalactic and he

play22:54

said well engineers always give you the

play22:55

minimum

play22:57

i want to cover the entire earth so i'm

play22:59

asking for an intergalactic one and

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that's going to force them not to try

play23:03

and do it the way ma bell did

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at

play23:07

that it was switching whatever and he

play23:09

was a psychologist he wasn't a big

play23:11

technologist but he understood he was

play23:14

what i call an educated man

play23:17

he understood what it was that they were

play23:18

actually working on

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and they didn't worry about what you

play23:22

could do with a computer or not

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back then that's the biggest difference

play23:27

what they worried about was what are the

play23:29

issues

play23:30

what are the fundamental issues and

play23:32

we'll just invent every piece of

play23:34

technology we need that's like at xerox

play23:36

park we built every

play23:38

uh bit of every

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piece of hardware and every software we

play23:44

we didn't buy anything from vendors

play23:46

we built it

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we built the computers we we had a

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we had a little production shop

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we built two or three

play23:55

of these first personal computers that

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were like macintoshes but better

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a week we built 2 000 of them

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by hand when it was hard to do because

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you have to have a bunch of them we

play24:06

invented the ethernet

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to connect the stuff together we

play24:10

invented the uh the

play24:12

internet in order to connect the

play24:13

ethernets together the artboard

play24:16

community was about hey we're we're in

play24:18

deep trouble and we're getting in deeper

play24:19

trouble we need to get more enlightened

play24:21

and we need to do what engelbart

play24:25

doug engelbart called

play24:27

we need to not just augment human beings

play24:31

human intellect but we have to augment

play24:33

the collective iq of groups

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because most important things are done

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by groups of people and so we have to

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think about what does it mean

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to have a group that's smarter than any

play24:45

member rather than a group that is less

play24:48

than the stupidest member

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if you were starting your career today

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how would you actually tackle that

play24:53

problem what would you do i'd probably

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stay in biology no you have to realize

play24:58

that one of the one of the reasons we

play24:59

were successful

play25:02

was

play25:03

you know we didn't know what we were

play25:04

doing but we know what we wanted to do

play25:08

and that was one

play25:10

just one step better than the rest of

play25:13

the computing industry which didn't just

play25:15

didn't know what it was doing

play25:18

it was just eeling its way along trying

play25:20

to figure out what to sell to people who

play25:22

were doing data processing with punch

play25:24

cards

play25:26

and ibm became the an enorm it already

play25:29

was an enormous company it took over

play25:31

that

play25:32

entire world and dominated but the thing

play25:34

is it wasn't

play25:36

uh

play25:37

nobody thought personal computers were a

play25:39

good idea

play25:41

ibm never did a good network and for

play25:44

partly for the same reason that

play25:47

uh

play25:49

you know i could make a ham radio when i

play25:51

was 12

play25:53

just out of

play25:54

junk

play25:55

i got in surplus stores in new york city

play25:59

because everything was discrete

play26:00

components and

play26:03

it was you know it was annoying

play26:06

because you had high voltages and you

play26:08

know building a computer back then was

play26:10

really annoying

play26:12

because

play26:13

they were had to be physically large

play26:15

they had k they had no every

play26:18

so the the first guys first people who

play26:21

built

play26:21

computers in the late 40s and early 50s

play26:24

man

play26:25

they were horses

play26:27

absolute horses

play26:29

but they wanted it the other thing we

play26:31

benefited from tremendously was the cold

play26:33

war

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like the radar effort and

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the sage air defense effort and

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the arpa and park efforts

play26:42

and all of these were funded just

play26:44

because the general public was afraid of

play26:46

the russians

play26:47

in fact the the thing that killed

play26:50

that research was a combination of the

play26:52

successful moonshot the public was not

play26:55

at all interested in the idea of

play26:57

interplanetary travel

play26:59

they were not even interested in the

play27:00

second moonshot

play27:02

nobody watched apollo 13 until they had

play27:05

the problem

play27:06

was off the news

play27:08

this is just a couple of years later

play27:11

because from the public standpoint they

play27:13

didn't give a

play27:15

about

play27:16

romance or destiny or any of that stuff

play27:19

they were worried about the russians and

play27:21

we showed we could do better missiles

play27:22

than the russians and another one that

play27:24

brenner identified is

play27:27

a visual way of dealing with things

play27:30

the fact that for example they showed

play27:33

something like 10 000 slides

play27:35

at a second or two a piece

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to poor students at a university and six

play27:42

months later

play27:44

and and some of them with parts of them

play27:46

occluded six months later those students

play27:49

could identify with ninety percent

play27:51

accuracy whether they'd ever seen

play27:53

one of those slides before if you put

play27:56

a hundred words up on the wall and one

play27:58

of them is the word elephant and you put

play28:01

the pictures of what those hundred words

play28:03

represent up on the wall in the same

play28:05

location

play28:06

any human being can find the elephant

play28:08

four times faster

play28:11

so one of the strengths of writing is

play28:13

that it doesn't look like images and one

play28:15

of the strengths of printed writing

play28:18

is that

play28:20

it helps decouple

play28:22

verbal

play28:23

processing

play28:25

from reading

play28:27

a lot of people never learn to read

play28:29

rapidly because they sub-vocalize

play28:31

and you can you can tell

play28:33

you

play28:34

like if you have a kid

play28:35

and they're learning to read you put

play28:37

your finger on your throat you can so

play28:39

somewhere in the maybe the eighth or

play28:42

seventh century bc but starting in

play28:46

the script called linear b which goes

play28:48

back earlier they started writing down

play28:51

words as they sounded that was the first

play28:53

time anybody was even aware that they

play28:55

were making speech sounds

play28:57

because just like when we read something

play28:59

when we know how to read we don't see

play29:00

the letters the word hops into our mind

play29:04

we're aware that there are letters there

play29:05

but we

play29:06

we're not looking at the letters

play29:09

and when people speak fluently they're

play29:11

not aware that they're saying phonemes

play29:14

they're saying words words of the unit

play29:15

of units of meaning

play29:18

so it took a long time for people to

play29:20

even see something that should be

play29:21

obvious

play29:23

to anybody that isn't a human being

play29:27

what we know from history is incredibly

play29:29

important because we don't have very

play29:31

many experiments

play29:33

on whole cultures

play29:35

starting from scratch

play29:37

what we're trying to do is to make

play29:38

something that was

play29:40

a decent graphical user interface for

play29:42

human beings and that required

play29:44

invention at every level the user

play29:46

interface

play29:47

user interface is primarily an active

play29:49

theatrical design so a book to look at

play29:53

it was written in 1945

play29:55

by one of the top mathematicians in the

play29:57

world has a long title

play30:00

called the psychology of invention in

play30:02

the mathematical field by jack adamard

play30:05

he wrote his friends the top 100

play30:07

mathematicians in the entire world and

play30:10

got each one of them

play30:11

to fill out a questionnaire

play30:13

and write a little thing

play30:16

about how they did their thing maybe

play30:18

five percent maybe seven percent used

play30:22

mathematical symbols you know like the

play30:24

cliched drawing on the board think

play30:26

mathematical symbols in the process of

play30:29

creation all the rest used primarily

play30:32

visual means

play30:33

sketches really see the thing is about

play30:35

vision

play30:36

same with the ear you can only see a few

play30:39

at a time in detail but you can be aware

play30:42

of 100 things at once

play30:44

so one of the things we're really bad

play30:46

about is our because of our eyes we

play30:48

can't get the visual point of view we

play30:51

want our eyes have a visual point of

play30:53

view of like 160 degrees

play30:56

but what i've got here is about 25

play30:59

and on a cell phone it's pathetic

play31:01

so this is completely wrong 100 wrong

play31:06

wrong in a really big way if you look at

play31:07

the first description that englebart

play31:09

ever wrote of what he wanted

play31:11

it was a display that was three feet on

play31:14

a side

play31:15

built into a desk

play31:17

because what is it that you design on if

play31:19

anybody's ever looked at a drafting

play31:21

table which they may not have

play31:23

for a long time you need room to design

play31:26

because there's always that you

play31:28

do wrong this is why

play31:30

you know

play31:31

experienced programmers have big

play31:33

multiple screens they're working on

play31:35

something where the result is going to

play31:36

be fit on one screen

play31:38

but you have to have all this other

play31:40

stuff it's like when you make an arch

play31:43

it's not just piling up the bricks you

play31:45

have to put this whole scaffolding up

play31:48

you have to hold everything together

play31:50

until you get the keystone in place and

play31:53

virtually all of the productivity tools

play31:55

that i've seen i'll just say all because

play31:57

i haven't seen all of them but the ones

play32:00

i have seen they just completely don't

play32:02

understand this at all they're all about

play32:05

this idea which most programmers have

play32:07

that's wrong is that you're going to

play32:09

write the program the right way nothing

play32:11

going to be wrong

play32:12

the whole idea is to make a mess

play32:16

and if you look at the way disney

play32:17

artists

play32:19

do things the whole thing is messing

play32:21

this is something anybody in the arts

play32:23

knows completely about and hardly

play32:25

anybody in computing knows anything

play32:27

about but in fact it's a key factor in

play32:31

building a good

play32:32

interactive development environment when

play32:34

i write an essay i always have sort of

play32:36

like a scratch pad on the bottom where

play32:37

i'm constantly sort of massaging the

play32:40

sentences and sometimes they're not even

play32:41

sentences and then sometimes they

play32:43

suddenly flower into a paragraph i'm

play32:45

like oh i guess i guess this is actually

play32:47

part of the final product and then you

play32:48

bring it up or like in programming as

play32:50

you're using a rebel the ideation

play32:54

for these

play32:55

world-class mathematicians uh was mostly

play32:58

visual and for 20 of them

play33:01

including einstein

play33:03

einstein said

play33:05

i have sensations

play33:07

of a tactile and muscular kind by the

play33:10

way feynman feynman was too young

play33:12

for this he missed out but he he

play33:15

literally wrestled with problems

play33:17

he would occasionally be found under his

play33:18

desk rolling around

play33:20

holding on to himself

play33:24

einstein would have sensations along his

play33:27

forearms and his

play33:29

stomach muscles

play33:31

when he was thinking it's a little known

play33:33

fact that the very year the first mouse

play33:35

was invented

play33:37

by engelbart in english in 64

play33:40

the first great tablet was invented

play33:44

a tablet

play33:45

that you would not feel bad about using

play33:47

today

play33:49

not not with a screen

play33:50

but something was

play33:52

down here and had a stylus and they had

play33:55

the best

play33:56

gesture recognizer that's ever been done

play33:59

by around 66

play34:01

and then they made a system that in

play34:03

every way is an interesting parallel to

play34:05

engelbart system because it also had

play34:08

hyperlinking but this system was

play34:09

completely graphical

play34:11

it was called grail graphic graphical

play34:13

interaction

play34:15

language

play34:17

and

play34:18

these guys did not have the

play34:21

scope of use in mind that engelbart had

play34:24

they were trying to improve programming

play34:26

but they really went uh the rand people

play34:28

this is a rand corporation and

play34:31

they had a level of aesthetics that

play34:32

nobody else in

play34:34

in the arpa community did they just

play34:36

kicked the out of stuff

play34:38

and

play34:40

so i had already used the engelbart

play34:42

system

play34:43

and really liked it got

play34:45

had many many important features and i

play34:47

went down to rand in 68 you tried grail

play34:51

out the first

play34:52

seconds of it

play34:54

was i re i had one of these hits

play34:57

that

play34:58

oh this is not even remotely like using

play35:01

a mouse

play35:02

and it's

play35:03

not like using a stylus to use a

play35:06

mouse-oriented interface

play35:08

because the whole thing was this the

play35:10

thing did not have it even have a

play35:11

keyboard

play35:13

that is how good the

play35:15

gesture recognition was but it also

play35:17

recognized symbols and other things that

play35:19

you

play35:20

so you built systems on it as fast as

play35:22

you could

play35:23

draw and you could pop on a box and it

play35:25

would take you down to another hyper

play35:27

level i felt

play35:28

intimate on this system

play35:31

there was no glass

play35:33

and i instantly realized

play35:35

that using the mouse on engelbart's

play35:37

system felt like i was doing an

play35:39

experiment in radioactive chemistry if

play35:41

you've ever seen you know those waldos

play35:43

where you have distance between you and

play35:45

the actual experiment running you have a

play35:47

manipulator that you're holding on to

play35:49

and there's a wall maybe a television

play35:51

set on the other side yeah there's a

play35:53

little dangerous stuff and you're

play35:54

looking at the television set and you're

play35:56

doing this

play35:57

i realize oh that's what engelbart

play35:58

system feels like but

play36:00

the grail system felt like oh i'm just

play36:03

embracing i'm right on it so i spent

play36:06

quite a bit of time trying to understand

play36:08

why

play36:08

what was the feeling of intimacy from

play36:11

and it turned out it was dragging it was

play36:13

not pointing and clicking but dragging

play36:15

and so we used that at park and

play36:17

it's dragging has had a

play36:20

rocky road in the commercial systems

play36:23

they tended to leave it out because you

play36:25

have to do some serious programming to

play36:26

do dragging on 80s

play36:29

computer but in fact at apple i even

play36:31

have a patent somewhere

play36:33

we did a mouse

play36:36

that was intimate and the way we made it

play36:38

intimate is that like when we were

play36:40

dragging a file folder the inertia on

play36:43

that file folder was proportional to how

play36:46

many files are in the folder we could

play36:48

feel the way we did that by putting

play36:50

differential

play36:51

we made a mouse that had differential

play36:53

breaks in it you know so you could run

play36:55

the thing over a line and you feel a

play36:57

little bump

play36:59

so it introduced tactility into the

play37:01

thing we made a mouse actually they had

play37:02

motors in it

play37:04

with a lot of these things you're

play37:05

getting you're recreating things you get

play37:07

for free in the real world like if i

play37:09

pick up this microphone it has a it has

play37:11

a weight to it that's corresponding to

play37:14

its mass yeah sometimes that's the the

play37:16

big deal about computing

play37:19

is when do you need to go when do you

play37:22

need to stay with human genetics

play37:24

and when do you try to move beyond in

play37:26

education the number one question for

play37:29

any educator is

play37:30

when should it be easy and when should

play37:32

it be hard

play37:33

and there's a lot of collaboration the

play37:35

grad students were the messengers

play37:38

and they also realized the

play37:41

most big idea is you just can't do

play37:43

everything the first shot

play37:46

so one of the schemes for that was lick

play37:47

lighter funded i guess 17 places in

play37:50

total

play37:52

and just let you know whoever whatever

play37:54

they

play37:55

most

play37:56

felt instinctive about

play37:58

he didn't care

play38:00

and there's a lot of collaboration the

play38:01

grad students were the messengers

play38:06

all the grad students had huge travel

play38:07

budgets also we were out in the

play38:09

boondocks in salt lake city

play38:11

and dave wanted us

play38:13

he said don't wait until anybody writes

play38:14

a paper

play38:16

just keep trying keep traveling so the

play38:19

first shot was well let's just

play38:21

let's just make a network to basically

play38:23

tie the arpa projects together

play38:26

to solve that problem and we'll solve it

play38:29

using packing uh packet switching which

play38:32

was

play38:33

independently invented in in an arpa

play38:36

project

play38:37

in a dod project at rand and in in

play38:40

england and there was some math

play38:42

that indicated how you might

play38:45

avoid some of the problems with packet

play38:47

switching i was in on most of those

play38:48

meetings and

play38:50

they went from

play38:52

not having a good way to do it to having

play38:54

a good way to do it in a few months

play38:57

and then building the hardware to do

play38:59

that which

play39:00

that hardware is are called routers

play39:02

today

play39:04

so routers had to be invented to do this

play39:06

and that tied together the arpanet

play39:08

probably tied together eventually about

play39:10

100 places

play39:13

and overlap with this was the idea as

play39:15

well we have to have internet working

play39:16

even though

play39:18

theoretically you could have run it from

play39:19

a central

play39:21

place

play39:22

as a star network

play39:23

there weren't that many machines

play39:25

the decision right from the beginning is

play39:27

screw it no no central control this

play39:29

thing has to

play39:31

have no

play39:33

privilege to computers

play39:35

it's just a bunch of computers and

play39:37

the software on these computers

play39:39

particularly the standard software that

play39:41

we'll put on

play39:43

these things that has to be enough

play39:46

to make sure that packets get to where

play39:48

we want them to go eventually

play39:50

you don't have to make it the first time

play39:53

we want to get them there eventually and

play39:55

we want the thing not to clog up

play39:59

so it can't crash and

play40:01

so a lot of things were learned on

play40:03

the arpanet and of course to anybody

play40:05

who's had biological training

play40:07

the

play40:08

fun thing about biology is

play40:11

the trade-offs on how control is done

play40:14

and there are trade-offs so some things

play40:16

have something like central control

play40:18

but even that is tends to be distributed

play40:21

if you think about it in computer terms

play40:24

even how you get

play40:25

from dna to messenger rna to the

play40:28

ribosomes and making prot you know it's

play40:31

it's distributed if one of them doesn't

play40:34

work it doesn't matter because it's all

play40:35

redundant

play40:37

thousands of different ways and there's

play40:38

error correction everywhere

play40:41

what's interesting in biology is not the

play40:43

components

play40:45

so it's very much like computing you can

play40:47

make a computer out of anything what's

play40:49

interesting is is the organization and

play40:52

you know i was 13 when the dna structure

play40:55

was discovered from 81 now

play40:58

that

play40:58

started turning up more and more

play41:00

interesting things

play41:02

that could be explained completely in

play41:04

chemical terms these molecules were

play41:07

critical

play41:08

because in theory biology shouldn't work

play41:12

very well

play41:14

because you don't have

play41:16

a lot of energy reason most chemistry is

play41:18

done over a bunsen burner is

play41:20

heating things up

play41:22

really helps

play41:23

molecular motion and that helps the

play41:25

molecules find each other

play41:27

and at blood temperature

play41:29

things are not moving nearly as fast

play41:32

and so one of the one of the problems in

play41:33

the 100 years ago was everything's

play41:35

running too slowly

play41:37

to explain what we're seeing

play41:39

but then people discovered catalysts

play41:42

but not for not for organic reactions

play41:45

but for inorganic reactions like

play41:47

platinum is a catalyst pretty much

play41:49

anything in engineering

play41:51

to try and do a really big scalable

play41:54

artifact

play41:56

is the opposite of trivial

play41:58

so this is one of these things where

play42:01

the

play42:02

the idea that you could make an internet

play42:06

is a hundred percent just from biology

play42:09

being so much more complex

play42:11

and working so well

play42:13

you know for decades

play42:15

and why is the decentralization of

play42:17

biological systems and of the internet

play42:19

so important for scalability first the

play42:22

thing is if you don't decentralize

play42:25

you have one part

play42:27

whose knowledge has to

play42:29

not just say what to do

play42:31

that's not hard

play42:33

right top down is easy

play42:35

if the dictator's always right

play42:38

but if the dictator doesn't get any

play42:40

feedback

play42:42

and the

play42:43

thing to try and figure out is

play42:45

how much feedback can a dictator take

play42:48

every day you can probably listen to 20

play42:50

yes men a day

play42:51

and uh suppose he's got a country that

play42:53

has uh you know 50 million people in it

play42:57

what do you think of something um like

play42:59

video games or a simulation or

play43:01

potentially virtual reality as a way to

play43:04

help us understand these systems even

play43:06

better and see the interactions

play43:08

so when sim city got done

play43:10

i went up to maxis there

play43:13

and complained to them i said look you

play43:17

i know you guys are getting these

play43:18

educational awards but you're getting

play43:19

educational awards from uneducated

play43:22

people

play43:23

just ignore those

play43:25

and think about

play43:27

what it is that you've got here

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and i said this thing is really

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impressive

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but it is anti-educational the way

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you've got it right now for example

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the

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rules that drive it

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are opaque 100 opaque

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the kids can't see what the rules are

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and they can't uh change the rules or

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put in rules of their own

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so what you've what you've done here is

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a a thing that's a consumable

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and it can't teach

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enough

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it's pro like symbolism and sort of

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saying like

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this

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you know we create police we

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forces to solve crime therefore they

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must solve crime right

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well or no the way to think about it is

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it's basically just reversion

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from something that's really complicated

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into a too simple story

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and these were being justified by

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stories and they were being opposed with

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stories

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rather than dealing with any systemic

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aspects

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which nobody wanted to touch

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and you take the the capabilities and

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you reframe the entire problem do you

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think that they could be reshaped into

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helping people understand or are they

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fundamentally pushing us towards

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entertainment

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you know well we took no i i think

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having children make games where they

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have to understand something fundamental

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to make the games and not just copy the

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code to do it

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and i'll close with one one last more

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specific question so you worked with

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with bob taylor who's one of my heroes

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what what are some of the tactics

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specific tactics that you learned from

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him about formulating an inspiring

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research agenda

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so

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taylor was a

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a character and a half

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the sly fox have you ever seen a picture

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of him with his pipe wreath and pipe yes

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yeah he looks like like the cover of

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rolling stones he's a son of a preacher

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man in texas got a master's in

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psychology also in experimental

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psychology

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and but he wound up

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he was the original funder of engelbart

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when bob was at nasa in the early 60s

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and bob greatly admired licklider who

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was a fellow psychologist and one of the

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famous meetings that he ran there

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towards the end of it uh he looked at

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his watch and

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said and there's a four-star general

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talking and he looked at us watching

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said general you have three minutes to

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make your point if you have one

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wow

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that's amazing so it's not just brains

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but also personality

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so lick lighter

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just

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snatched him

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out of the pentagon to be his successor

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because look either had his ideas nobody

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should

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be inside the beltway for more than two

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years because you go anybody reasonable

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go crazy

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you can't have an idea there

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so you set up this scheme that

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you you spend two years

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helping our ipto prosper

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your last year you you train your

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replacement and you just go back to the

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community and your replacement runs for